I warned you supporters of this failed government many times that they were creating uncertainty within the business community that, if allowed to continue, had the potential to stall the economy.

Well, it has happened, big business has announced that this government is the hardest they have ever had to deal with.

Now they want to place additional burden on them in the form of a new tax.

All you labor supporters should hold your heads in shame as it is your doing that has allowed this incompetent government to ruin this great nation in less than four years.

It's a disgrace.

Hold on rehcub. The economy hasn’t stalled. Far from it. The carbon tax might reduce investor confidence and slow some things slightly…..very slightly…. for a while, but economic growth will power ahead pretty much as always.

And hey, we DESPERATELY need to rein it in! We need to get off of this insane rapid continuous growth path to ruin that we are on.

What we need are mechanisms much stronger than the carbon tax to temper this growth. And if it is done at the same time as progressive reductions in population growth, ie; immigration, it should not be difficult to accommodate, in total contrast to what big business people, economists and most politicians would tell us.

My criticism of the carbon tax seems to be entirely the opposite to yours – I’d say it doesn’t go anywhere near far enough. It is purported to be the first step towards a paradigm change. Well, if it is then good. But I’ll believe that when I see it. I reckon further moves of any significance to reduce emissions or wean ourselves off of fossil fuels, especially oil, are just about as likely as me becoming PM at the next election!

The carbon tax has effectively given this government a pale green veneer. Nothing more than that. It really is just business as usual. Big business and the rest of the manic rapid-growth-forever brigade have had another huge win here

Oh well..if big business has said it, it must be so.

C'mon rehctub you know better than that even if you are pushing your own agenda. Saying something does not make it true especially if there are commercial interests. Any new tax or imposition on business is always met with derision and 'henny penny' reactions, but that is a political and self-serving tactic nothing more. The trick is to look broadly at the issue and make up your own mind rather than listen to the 'side' you have already chosen without any scrutiny of the information being provided.

Who is "big business" and where is their announcement?

Where are the bread lines, rehctub? What ruin?

The reality is that we're still skipping merrily along to the corporate tune.

Oh Noes! "Big Business" (who or whatever that is) finds a Labor/Greens government hard to deal with?

In other earth-shattering news, the sun rose in the east this morning.

rehctub,
Don't despair with the replies. There will be replies from posters who aren't in the public service.

individual
Those sorts of comments are counterproductive and do not add anything to the discussion.

So far none of the above posters are in the public service as far as I am aware, and even if that were the case do public servants not have the right to an opinion? It might surprise you to learn that public servants are many and varied all with different political allegiances and opinions.

Why do you find it surprising that big business is complaining about increased taxes?

Pelican'
I don't find it surprising at all that big business is complaining.
The replies to rehctub are clearly from people who don't have to put money up front in order to make money. i.e. public servants. When you have councils going broke & you still get replies like the afore than clearly people are utterly out of touch. Non public servants are hurting out there. rehtctub is right. Only someone with a cushy PS number would argue to the contrary.
my comments are designed to stir people into thinking about other people who do it tough because of a Government which was voted in by deceit & ignorance.

Individual
Public servants are not a homogenous group, many I have worked with are pro-Coalition. Politicians are the people who decide on policy.

I harp on this fact as while I detest some aspects of the public service and the problems with an entrenched culture of secrecy in some departments, you cannot IMO, make such generalisations about public servants as though the mere act of being one denies you privilege given to others to make rational judgements.

Of course, the irony here is that individual is a council worker, and of course they have such a good reputation for their work ethic and efficiency. I'd be interested to know how much money he had to put up to get his job.

I'm a partner in a small business on which I rely to pay my living expenses, but I support a carbon tax, so long as it leads into a proper cap and trade system. Mind you, there's various ways to run a business - we choose to run ours ethically.

pelican' the present Govt is working on making the public servants homogenous. that will ensure votes for the future.

morganzola,
you're obviously the silent partner in the business, unless of course you're a consultant to a Govt Dept. or a lawyer or similar. You're definitely not a tradesman or in manufacturing. you wouldn't write like this if you were.
And, yes, I have paid dearly to uphold my employment.

The whole problem is that when big business hesitates, or decided it's to risky to invest, small business suffers and, considering small business is our largest employer, that is certainly something we should all be worried about.

Now some suggest our economy is going alone just fine, well, I challenge you to remove mining and the jobs created from government incompitance then do the math.

as a retailer for all my life, i can assure you that mum and dad average are doing it very tough out there.

Like anything, it's the short to medium future that matters and that's looking very I'll.

Madam pm would like us all to think we are in great shape, but don't let your self be fooled.

Things are far from rosy out there, believe me.

With this governments achievements thus far, I hate to think what can happen if they screw anything else up.

I think this is why big business is so concerned. They have some hug projects on the go and
they have not managed to get one thing right so far. Of cause, I would love to be proven wrong, but I'm not holding my hope up.

Rehctub, you are only partly right.
Worldwide we are up against very low growth or zero growth.
It is this worldwide low growth that is causing the problem for business.
Of course our government is doing its best to make things worse but
you must excuse them because Swan expects growth to cover our deficit.
They are unaware of the true situation in which we find ourselves.
But then so does every other country. Even the US and Europe are still
talking growth and are wondering why they can't crank it up above
1% or 2%.

I read an article on this recently and the writer assigns a direct
connection to Energy Return on Energy Invested (ERoEI).
He asserts that now that ERoEI has fallen to 20:1 we are now spending
on obtaining energy what we used to spend on growth and interest
payments.

We will need realign our expectations to match our resources.

Rehctub it is not only big business.

Smaller and small business is also suffering

It is simple

Remove a sense of certainty, by dumb-arsed socialist economics, including the uncertain impacts of a ideological “Carbon Tax” which can muster less than 20% support across the nation (and that 20% is largely employed in safe “government” jobs) and two things happen

1 people are forced to divert more of their income into providing for utilities and government rates and charges etc. which they know are going through the roof but which they cannot avoid paying

2 people start to get fearful for their future so they stop doing things which are “discretionary”. Essentially, people stop spending and start saving more, incase they lose their jobs.

All that saving results in

grave economic slow down I see another chain of clothing stores have announced 50 shop closures becasue of lack of sales..... that menas spaces in shopping malls... reduced rental income... slow down in bunisness investment... no building works... etc ... etc...

in short, business closedowns due to lack of market demand and all because of this stupid, unpopular, anti-elecorate government

That in turn means fewer hairdressers, restaurant staff, deli workers shop assistants, including the family butcher staff etc employed.

This government is abysmal because it just does not get or see it or understand how and why a mixed economy functions. It only understands how to mess up and leave the conservative side of politics to clean up and produce an economic recovery after them
Remember a Carbon Tax will increase your costs of utilities….

And we all know… that cost increase will be more than the amount you get back as tax relief or handouts… and lets face it… there is never any “dignity” in government handouts…. It merely entrenches their hand deeper you your pocket for no beneficial effect

Bring on the Next General Election - double dissolution and clean out the greens and the swill

Assuming that Col Rouge is misinformed rather than deliberately lying, he should be made aware that this morning's poll results indicate a 6% increase in support for the Carbon Tax since the Government released details last week:

><The poll published in today's Australian newspaper suggests 36 per cent of voters now support the carbon tax.

Opposition to the tax has fallen from 59 per cent to 53 per cent since the beginning of the Federal Government's advertising campaign.

The poll was conducted last weekend and the Australian says it shows the first rise in support for the tax in almost three months.><

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-25/poll-shows-rising-support-for-carbon-tax/2808486

morganzola "Assuming that Col Rouge is misinformed rather than deliberately lying.....

The poll published in today's Australian newspaper suggests 36 per cent of voters now support the carbon tax."

no, moronzola, I do not do as the Environazis do and "deliberatly lie"

I have no investment in fraud to benefit from

Recently the idea of having a Carbon Tax did have support of only 19% of the electorate....

that you have trawled up another figure to suggest different means nothing, other than you will use anything to support an immoral tax and anything to find some more idiots to support your asinine view.

Like I said, if Gizzards was honest ("honest socialist" being an oxymoron - example "Tax cuts are L.A.W.), she would have tested support for a Carbon tax by taking it firsts to the electorate instead of

Lying through her teeth at the last election and pretending she has now been elected to run roughshod over the will of the people who actually produce the wealth her government wants to tax.

It will never cease to amaze me that anyone can cast a sincere vote for socialists...

the sooner they and their Watermelon Green imbicilicle mates are evicted the better

@ Col Rouge:

Thanks for that. Any opportunity to publish the actual facts is welcome, since you seem incapable of doing so.

"imbicilicle" - now that made laugh out loud. Thanks for that, too :)

morganzola,
the photo in the link says a thousand words. Just look at the chaps' expression, they look really impressed by the PM.
A survey by the Australian ? Was that survey conducted in the ABC coffee lounge ?

Yep.It did not take long.Labor are traitors to their own people whom they proport to represent.They are reaping what they have sewn.Long may they decay in their egocentric, corrupt,hedonistic,nepotism.

Goodbye Labor.Treachery most foul will be your epitaph.

Morgan, you are obviously one of those who support the carbon tax.

So please answer a few simple questions.
1 do you think the carbon tax, given that it will simply be passed on, will actually reduce emissions?
2 do you think it is wise for one of the smallest polluters to go about trying to fix a global problem almost single handed.
3 do you think the generators of emissions are responsible, or, do you agree that the end user is the one at fault?
4 given that our economy is being propped up by our resources, do you think it is worth the risk to implement a tax that will make this sector anti competitive with global competition?

In my view there should be incentives given to end users to cut emissions, like, reduced kilowatt fees for the first amount of power used, then increases for anything above.

The fact is that those on high incomes simply don't care. They can afford to pay more. It is those who require 100% of their income to get by that will pay the price.

Kids will be pulled from private schools, have their recreational activities reduced all because life will be come tougher.

Business is failing and, given that it is the largest employer, you should be very worried, if not for yourself, at least for those around you.

This government is allowing our world to crumble, if fact, they are doing their best to assist.

Internet shopping is another example.

Kmart, who employs thousands, are disadvantaged with the GST, however, online traders, who employ a few, don't have to charge GST. How many items do you see on the shelf at Kmart for $1000 or more?

There are many others like Kmart who suffer.

This government wastes billions on boat people, yet allows our seniors to starve, yet in many's eyes they can do no wrong.
Why?

@ rehctub:

1. The carbon tax won't have much of an effect itself, but the ETS it's intended to develop into will.
2. We're not going about it singlehandedly, and we are the highest per capita emitters of greenhouse gases on the planet.
3. I think both consumers and producers should pay the real cost of emissions.
4. Given that the economy is, as you say, propped up by the extraction of non-renewables resource, I think it's high time we seriously look at another future than as the world's quarry.

While I agree that the wealthy could just shrug off the minimal extra expense of the carbon tax, it seems to me that they are among its most vocal opponents. If parents have to send their kids to public schools, so what? That would be good for their relative funding, as far as I can tell. As for recreational activities, I don't get the connection. Indeed, team sports might benefit from having parents around on weekends instead of working.

What you don't understand is that whatever we do or don't do, we're all going to suffer a bit of pain. However, the longer we delay, the more pain we'll feel.

Morganzola & others are becoming disconnected from reality.
The government is spending money at a rate which cannot be
supported by near zero growth.
Our growth rate at the moment is 2%. However our interest & capital
repayment has to be paid out of that 2%.
I think what is happening is that the government is printing money
to make up the difference or borrowing more money, said to be at the
rate of $1,000,000,000 a month.

This is the same bind that the US & Europe has got itself into.
The only way we can start putting big money into alternative energy
systems is to reduce living standards, pensions etc.
Somehow we have to start reducing costs in other areas because we
cannot expect to keep living off China's iron ore & coal buying for a lot longer.

All "developed countries" are having growth problems.
As oil depletion sets in that growth will turn into contraction.
China & India, who still have significant growth will only be able
to keep their growth by increasing contraction in "developed countries".

Morgan, nice talking to someone who answers questions.

The ETS will be fine, as for someone to produce carbon, they have to first buy credits. The carbon tax does not address this, it simply means that they can continue to produce and simply pass the costs on.

As for being a large generator, well that's simply due to our small population, our high living standards and the fact that we are a large exporter of resources.

The challenge for us will be to continue supplying this demand, while at the same time reducing our outputs. Huge!

Both pay, I can live with that.

The worlds quarry.
So don't you want future generations to have what we had?

My position has always been that we need to find a way to deal with carbon.

Timber houses is one way, perhaps storing carbon in concrete, cement, road surfaces may be some other to consider.

To think we will be able to supply. The words demands, maintain our way of life and reduce outputs is all but a dream. A bit like pissing into a fan one might say.

In any case, this whole carbon debated may not have been so bad had we ended up with a government that has a strong track record and, as I say, business has lost confidence and that is a very bad situation for us to be in, especially when they are already fighting both a high dollar and non cooperative banks.

morganzola.... from your comments to my previous post on thread

I am pleased I amused you morganzola.....

it simply suggests

not only are you a environazi.....

you are also a spelling nazi.....

I guess your fascism (who lets face it were not right but as left Lenin and with similar murderous habits) knows no limits

Yawn

Cheers

@ Col Rouge:

Oh come on, Col. To attempt to insult someone's intelligence by calling them an "imbicilicle" is pretty droll, even you'd have to admit. It's hardly "Nazi" to find humour in the sight of an arrogant braggart hoist on his own petard. In fact, it's something of a trope in humorous art and literature.

Mind you, you need a sense of humour for that. I've also had some good chuckles this evening, courtesy of stevenlmeyer's thread on humour:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4604&page=0

Lighten up a bit, man! All this fear and loathing can't be good for your health, if nothing else. It doesn't even cover up the fibs you seem to be in the habit of telling.

"Lighten up a bit, man! All this fear and loathing can't be good for your health, if nothing else. It doesn't even cover up the fibs you seem to be in the habit of telling."

I have no fear

as for loathing, you are not worth the effort

my health and my life are both good... actually both alot better than they were say 10 years ago

I do not lie.

In fact, you are the one who supports the great AGW lie of the century .... Gizzrds lying Carbon Tax as well as the eternal lies of collectivism (by any name)

which, like I said previously, disqualifies you from commenting.

The tax has to increase over time as productivity decreases. A decrease in consumer demand will cause an increase in social service demands. It's a real snowball this time. Hopefully global warming will melt it in time :-)