RSPCA shifts spotlight to ritual slaughter

By Jason Om
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/18/3247288.htm
Updated Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:13am AEST
Halil Haliloff is allowed to kill without stunning at his farm north of Adelaide

Halil Haliloff is allowed to kill without stunning at his farm north of Adelaide (ABC: Jason Om)

* Audio: RSPCA moves to ban some Halal slaughter (AM)
* Related Story: Labor needs moral compass on live exports: Wilkie
* Related Story: Butcher backlash after export horror revealed
* Related Story: NT Government says live exports must continue
* Related Story: Halal, kosher slaughter to face Commonwealth review

With Australia's live cattle exports to Indonesia still in limbo, the RSPCA is now calling for Australian abattoirs to be banned from ritually killing animals without stunning them first.

The national halal standard requires most abattoirs to stun the animals before their throat is cut, but several have been given approval to kill animals without stunning.

RSPCA spokeswoman Melina Tensen says it is a brutal practice and should be banned.

"The RSPCA believes that it's unacceptable to cut the throat of an animal or sever blood vessels while the animal is fully conscious," she said.

http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-kosher-slaughter-in-Australia_117.htmlKosher beef, sheepmeat and chicken are produced from animals that have not been stunned prior to having their throat cut.

The RSPCA is strongly opposed to all forms of slaughter that do not involve prior stunning of the animal.

The RSPCA is concerned there are greater risks of animal suffering during religious slaughter without stunning than for conventional slaughter. The number of animals involved is a tiny percentage of all animals killed but, regardless, the method is distressing to the animal due to:

* increased restraint
* injury caused by the slaughter methods
* subsequent bleeding out.

The use of stunning during the slaughter process can remove some, but not all, of these concerns.

The RSPCA definition of humane killing is: ‘an animal must be either killed instantly or rendered insensible to pain until death supervenes’. When killing animals for food, this means they must be stunned before slaughter so they immediately become unconscious. The RSPCA policy on ritual slaughter is clear: slaughter without prior stunning is inhumane and completely unnecessary. The RSPCA is opposed to inhumane methods of killing and continues to promote this view to governments and the public.

I can't believe that a supposedly modern, secular country like Australia still allows such practices to continue.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe any God would condone cruelty to his/her creatures on Earth.
The old practices of killing animals in a certain way so they are 'permitted' to be eaten is surely way overdue for an overhaul as far as some religions go?

The 'olden days' were populated by peoples who didn't know any better with regards of how to humanely treat animals, and were not in a position to argue with their religious leaders.

If all people of either Jewish or Islamic religions today refused to eat the meat of animals killed by inhumane methods, then surely these archaic religious 'rules' of how to kill animals could be dropped?

suzeonline,

Yes and the worst part of it all is & I know you wont believe this! its been done by our Australian Government. Can you believe that suzonline. I cant pretend to know much about the Kosher but I do have some good news regards the Halal ritual slaughters. New leaders are going to support RSPCA to stun @ oppose the others pro ritual. Of course there are about 15 abattoirs working right now killing like that here. Its sickening. Yes it is hard to imagine that type of brutal primitive killing of our Australian farm animals is happening on our own soil. Your right in not believing suzonline.

Full marks again to the RSPCA for bringing public attention to this issue. I was under the impression that animals were required to be slaughtered humanely in Australia, and assumed that in the cases of Halal and Kosher killing the animals were stunned prior to having their throats cut.

It's hard to see how cutting a conscious animal's throat could possibly be done humanely. Conversely, if the animal's unconscious it doesn't really matter what sacred words are chanted, nor how its throat is actually cut.

I can't believe that ritual slaughter without pre-stunning is permitted in Australia. It has to cease forthwith. Go RSPCA! I might even donate them some money.

Suze,
You said "I can't believe that a supposedly modern, secular country like Australia still allows such practices to continue".

Why can't you believe it?

Our governments ignore FGM don't they! Federal and state governments got together in 1994 and discussed the issue of FGM. Each state passed laws making the practice illegal. Bet that made the politicians feel good, yet they have done nothing to enforce the laws. Not one person has ever been charged with an offence relating to FGM.

There are some hospitals that have specialist units to treat post FGM problems. Royal Melbourne Womens Hospital is maybe one of the biggest in terms of patients treated. You are a nurse and you know this, and probably have nursed women or girls that have been subjected to FGM.

So why would you have any difficulty in believing that, for religious reasons livestock are killed without stunning?

It is estimated that there are about 1000 forced marriages take place each year for cultural reasons, yet our government turn a blind eye also to this. They do not even run awareness education to inform young girls that it is illegal and where they can seek help if they are being pressured.

It strikes me as ironic that our police and the RSPCA raid and prosecute those that conduct cockfights because it is cruel, but nothing is done to stop FGM. So little girls continue to be held down on kitchen tables by old biddies while pieces of flesh are hacked off them. No one cares about these little girls yet the whole country is up in arms about the killing methods of livestock used by some religious groups.

Of course I want to see animals slaughtered humanely, but I think the issues of forced marriage and FGM are more pressing.

Wouldn't I like to get 4 Corners to make a programme showing FGM being done and what the poor girls endure and then so intercourse can be achieved and then childbirth. People really would be shocked. But no, that is too culturally sensitive.

morganzola
It is indeed great RSPCA are trying to stop this. It was a complete surprise when Ikebal Patel came out with his demands for Sharai law- the now President of AFIC Australian Federation of Islamic council & it raised alarms to those who had worked with him to ban live exports.
Those inquires led to serious concerns & revealed something almost unbearable to believe. While Mr Petal has always maintained support for stunning he and mla & government have quietly produced a mla brand & others (14) believed to be ritual slaughter.

http://www.afic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ma4-30-39.pdf

Australian Halal brand goes global | Australian Food News
9 Oct 2008 – The unique Halal brand that was developed last year by Meat & Livestock ... The MLA-developed Halal brand appears on retail meat packs and point of sale and ... Woolworth s switches own-label milk from NF to Parmalat ...
www.ausfoodnews.com.au/.../australian-halal-brand-goes-global.html -

There is no place in Australia for ritual Halal or Kosher & we must all fight to stop this together with RSPCA united.

Indeed good on RSPCA & shame on these people in Government MLA who approved this treatment of Australian Farm Animals

Banjo,

Sorry I didnt see your post & I dont understand why you would expect RSPCA to police things outside of their authority . Might I suggest you open a thread on your topic. You might get more support on it seeing your clearly very passionate about this off topic.

RSPCA have more than enough on their hands I am sure working within their own territory. If I didnt know better i;d almost think you were attempting to mislead the title of this thread about RSPCA

Go RSPCA indeed!

Yes Kerryanne, I agree that it's hardly the RSPCA's responsibility to lobby against the illegal practice of FGM in Australia.

Banjo, this discussion's about ritual slaughter, not FGM. However, I agree that FGM should be stamped out if it's being practised in Australia. I'd be happy to support a reputable campaign against it. Perhaps you could start a discussion and lobby group about it, rather than trying to hijack an unrelated discussion?

Kerryanne,
I am not trying to hyjack your thread, but i think we have to keep things in proportion.

In this. the cruelty inflicted on humans is a far more pressing issue.

My reference to the RSPCA is relative to the fact that they are involved in the prosecution of thse carrying out cockfighting, yet the government does not prosecute those carrying out FGM.

I make no apology and will continue to relate the cockfighting issue to the non-prosecution of those carrying out FGM.

Governments are more concerned about the welfare of roosters than little girls.

morganzola
(apologies) about the other thread) we all just want to help.

Interesting times & strong support for RSPCA. In one corner we have Mr Ikebal Patel pushing this cruel ritual slaughter ( quite unbeknown by many)

RSPCA to BAN Ritual Slaughter news-
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3247274.htm
http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-kosher-slaughter-in-Australia_117.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/18/3247288.htm
http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/9664631/rspca-shifts-spotlight-to-ritual-slaughter/
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=rspca+south+australia+ritual+slaughter+&btnG=Google+Search
Other corner-

Press Release

The Australian Federation of Islamic Societies (AFIS HKM) ANIMAL WELFARE ORGANIZATION strongly oppose the export of live cattle abroad and “support the RSPCA process of stunning the cattle and all Animals before halal or non-halal slaughtering. The process of stunning should be applied to the animal while it is standing on its feet. The intensity of stunning should be such that if the animal is left un-slaughtered it should be able to get up and walk away.
In order to minimize the level of stress and anxiety to the cattle it is imperative that when an animal is being slaughtered the other animals should be isolated and kept away.
Stunning is the most humane way of making the animals unconscious before slaughtering and it ensures that they suffer the least pain.
This method of stunning complies with the States and Federal legislation's.
Australian Federation of Islamic Societies (AFIS) is due to open in six weeks.
,Dr Ameer Ali- Former advisor to the Howard Government on Islamic affairs
1. Dr Munir Hussain-10 years experience with AFIC and 11 years in SICHMA on Halal products

What do you know about Kosher- the head in Australia? office name.
I dont know anything about them accept Kosher is even more cruel.

RSPCA will finally get this reviewed with everybody demanding this dreadful treatment is banned.

Do you know anything about the inquiry into ritual slaughter? They seem to be taking their time-

Disgusting to think our Government allowed this in the first place& the two faces of Ikebal are beyond the pale.

Yes Banjo, I have seen women upon whom FGM has been practiced, but the laws are already in place on that practice, so I guess your issue should be with the police?
I would be more than happy to see male circumscision added to that law as well, because that is equally heinous to me.

But this thread is about the animals who have no real voice themselves, so I guess we have to speak out for them.
We need to Stop the ritual killings, and ban all such practices in this country, and to all countries to which we export live animals.

killing animals by following religious ritual has existed from the time that religion began and if we expect other people to honour our religion we in turn have to respect their religion no matter how abhorrent it may be to us.

It is unfortunate that with a shrinking planet an expanding population due to migration, economic need, and trade, the religious practices tend to encroach on our sensibilities.

It is up to the government and the voters to decide whether this need for trade is acceptable. Unfortunately we have accepted many of these religious groups into our country and therefore we have to accept their religious practices. If we're not happy we should learn to ignore it because if we won't learn to live with it we may have major social upheavals within our borders as we have seen in the recent centuries in colonial countries.

It is obvious that some people need to get their priorities in order.

Human cruelity issues has to come before that of animals.

Another example is the abuse of kids the NT report uncovered. How can that happen in a modern society and it is not only in the NT. Pre-school kids with VD and damaged vaginas is enough to make anyone feel sick. Not to mention lice and other infections.

Yet the animal libbers jump up and down about the religious/cultrural slaughter of sheep or whether some puppies tails should be docked. Or mulsing to prevent sheep flystrike.

If there was a fire and animals and kids were in danger, I have no doubt which I would rescue first. In fact been there and done that.

Do any of you know what really goes on in abbotoirs? I've got to confess that I certainly don't. In fact I've never really given it much thought. All I do is go to the butchers and buy my cuts of meat without giving it a second thought. Our family are big meat eaters - always have been. Then that TV news report came on and showed what was being done to some poor animals in Indonesia - and Yikes - it brought some reality into our home. Then again came the plight of the farmers - and here we were torn between a rock and a hard place so to speak. Needless cruelty of any kind seems wrong. Now with religious rituals - again - do any of us know what's really involved? Again, I surely don't. What happens with Kosher? And Halal? and so on. I don't know. I would hope that these practices are part and parcel of ancient rituals and the animals suffer as little as possible. If not, why does the government allow it?

Lexi

I certainly empathise with you. Where stunning has been permitted in both kosher and halal abattoirs, animals are less likely to feel pain. However, panic is another issue altogether and many abattoirs (irrespective of religion) do not have systems where animals are unable to detect what is happening around them.

The Netherlands has called for a ban on all ritual slaughter.

http://arthurdobrin.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/changing-kosher-and-halal-slaughtering-methods%E2%80%94the-moral-case/

The following links to a schematic drawing of more humane ritual slaughter:

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/schematic.html

Perhaps 4 Corners should make a documentary warts and all, of humans
gasping for their last breath as they die, with nobody to end their
suffering. That would speed up the euthanasia debate.

It was actually me who raised the ritual slaughter issue in Australia,
in the last thread. Its a bit hypocritical for Australia to not
practise, what we are preaching to others. Given that the RSPCA
dealt with 277'000 animal cruelty complaints over 5 years, we
are hardly without blemish in this country. The effort should
be better animal welfare everywhere, including the third world.

On this issue I see a difference between cattle and sheep. Even
the Jews acknowledge that killing cattle without stunning is a
problem, so I gather they accept stunning after the first cut.

With sheep its all much more straight forward. Its pretty easy
to kill a sheep with a knife and once blood pressure drops, its
all over pretty quick, as those who faint from low blood pressure
might know. Next we also know that people who have suffered mass
injuries, often don't actually feel them at the time, as endorphins
kick in . Next we have the issue of people all over country Australia
providing their own meat and no, they don't own stun guns.

So once again, its a complex issue, not black and white as many
seem to think.

Lexi,
Aside from not knowing how meat is obtained, some don't know milk comes from animals, or eggs from chooks.

These people are better off not knowing that fish die when taken from the water or how black pudding is made or what tripe originally was.

Then there is sausage skin.

Who was it that said 'people who like law and sausage should not watch either being made'

But that is nothing to what some cultures consume.

Dear Banjo,

Damn straight on that one that's for sure. Better not to know in some cases either. I remember being at a dinner-party of an Indian colleague of my husband's in Los Angeles and being offered with pre-dinner drinks something that I thought were walnuts. They were crunchy and tasted quite nutty - and I complimented our host. He was thrilled and told me that he was delighted that I liked the delicacy of his grasshoppers.

AS deputy director of the Islamic Research Centre at Griffith University, Halim Rane knows a great deal about Muslim culture.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/debate-on-sharia-law-sign-of-healthy-democracy/story-e6frg97x-1226068250656

And in his view, Australia's Muslims do not need nor want sharia law.

"Ikebal Patel has expressed his view, but others from his own community have disagreed with that. And that is a healthy thing," Dr Rane said. "It shows that it is not something a majority of Muslims desire."

Like some other leaders of the Muslim community, Dr Rane had been surprised by the push for sharia. He was also surprised it had originated with the president of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Ikebal Adam Patel.

"I don't know Ikebal Patel to be inclined towards this type of discourse. I didn't think he was one of those promoting sharia, or separate laws or legal pluralism or anything like that," Dr Rane said.

Dr Rane, who specialises in relations between Islam and the West, believes sharia is not needed because state and federal law already meet "the higher objectives of Islamic law".


He makes the point that the reason sharia arose was to bring law and order to the Arabian peninsula at a time when there was an absence of law.

"But the fact of the matter is that we do have a legal system here that provides all of the rights, protections and freedoms that people need to maximise their benefits and protect them from harm, which essentially is what all legal systems are about," he said.

Dr Rane, who is also a lecturer at the National Centre of Excellence in Islamic Studies, said he was unaware of any significant push within the Australian Muslim community for sharia law.

He said the community needed to be very cautious when considering transplanting laws developed in the ninth or 10th century to a modern society.

"I suspect it could lead to injustices; outcomes that are contrary to the intent of law in the first place," Dr Rane said.

click on link to continue reading..

End 'cruel' religious slaughter, say scientists

Beasts should be stunned before their throats are slit, Jews and Muslims are told

By Martin Hickman, Consumer Affairs Correspondent

Monday, 22 June 2009

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/end-cruel-religious-slaughter-say-scientists-1712241.html


Meat Hygiene Service suggested 114 million animals were killed under halal and 2.1 million under kosher methods each year in Britain

ALAMY

Meat Hygiene Service suggested 114 million animals were killed under halal and 2.1 million under kosher methods each year in Britain
Religious slaughter techniques practiced by Jews and Muslims are cruel and should be ended, says a scientific assessment from the Government's animal welfare advisers.

The Farm Animal Welfare Council says that slitting the throats of the animals most commonly used for meat, chickens, without stunning, results in "significant pain and distress". The committee, which includes scientific, agricultural and veterinary experts, is calling for the Government to launch a debate with Muslim and Jewish communities to end the practice.

One Muslim organization, the Halal Food Authority, already insists on the slaughterhouses it regulates stunning animals first on welfare grounds, as long as they are still alive when their throats are slit. But in other halal and almost all kosher slaughterhouses, animals have their throats slit without prior stunning which would render them insensible to the pain. Religious groups say that doing so would be against their interpretation of religious texts.

"Such a large cut will inevitably trigger sensory input to pain centres in the brain," the council said. "Our conclusions ... are that such an injury would result in significant pain and distress ... before insensibility supervenes. Fawc is in agreement with the prevailing scientific consensus that slaughter without pre-stunning causes pain and distress. On the basis that this is avoidable and in the interests of welfare, Fawc concludes that all birds should be pre-stunned before slaughter."

....

In the 70s the abbs; i worked in done both Halal & Cosha, under the supervision of the respective countries people. There was no problem with the stunning of the animal by bolt gun for cattle, and electric jab for sheep.
The abbs; Indonesian style, are pretty sad enterprises. Dealing with a foreign country on how they conduct their processing may be a big order.
The more stress caused to an animal at the point of slaughter, reflects in the quality of meat after rigor-mortus. It would be in their own interest for the animal to be stunned before slaughter.
All of these cattle from AU,s north should be slaughtered and quartered in AU. The whole shippment and handling of these cattle, which have had little to none involvement with human-beings is all wrong.
Northern cattle should be shipped south, rested and lot fed for four months before slaughter.

597, those cattle can't be moved south, the numbers don't stack up.
Bos Indicus is regarded as second grade meat, unlike Angus etc.
They don't like cold weather either.

The first thing that needs to happen is for MLA to start replacing
their 100 boxes with some that actually work properly, which I
gather they are in the process of doing. Whoever was in charge
of that programme has some explaining to do.

Secondly they need to get some cattle moving, or there will
be an animal welfare disaster in the North. Stations need money
to buy minerals, pump water etc. We'll find out in a few days
wether the Indonesians will even issue permits for Australian
cattle, when present permits run out on June 30th. The grapevine
claims that they are telling importers to source elsewhere. That
would be a disaster for our industry, with lots of suffering for
the livestock involved. Unintended consequences are seldom
considered in these matters, but its the animals that pay the price.

The premise that things cannot change and that people cannot learn
in the 3rd world, is a flawed one. Given that they learnt to use
Twitter and Facebook to stage their revolutions, its clearly not
the case.

We clearly have to accept our share of the blame. We installed those
crappy boxes, which clearly are a good deal of the problem.

The Dept of Agriculture, which audits what MLA does and how it
spends its money, has some explaining to do as well.

a597
Hello & Welcome to you.

##In the 70s the abbs; i worked in done both Halal & Cosha, under the supervision of the respective countries people. There was no problem with the stunning of the animal by bolt gun for cattle, and electric jab for sheep.##

Yes its interesting isn't it. Where abouts we you working ( area ) in those days ? I just had a long talk with a guy from Egypt looking for 500mt & we were talking about the same thing. This has been going for a while now. They want the cattle stun & believe it or not it was Australia accreditation that knocked him back. Well we know all about that now- so will sort.

In my experience the less educated think they require some ritual slaughter - but the bulk dont even mind our bolt method, which is the case with this Egypt buyer. I was telling him how much our beef is sold in Indonesian. So hes interested in a visit up top. Couldn't believe they sold at that price.

Iran mostly accept stunning too but not all. So we should / and will back RSPCA 100% because this ritual stuff is cruel and Halal & Kosher as you rightfully said can and will be done with the stunning of the animal by bolt gun for cattle, and electric jab for sheep.
Thanks a597 for your informative and valuable post. We hope to see you again.

*Its a bit hypocritical for Australia to not
practise, what we are preaching to others.*

Yes & it will be addressed as RSPCA demand Animals are stunned.

*I gather they accept stunning after the first cut.*
Kosher is EXTREMELY cruel i can tell u that much.

*With sheep its all much more straight forward.*
Yes there must be stun.

* Next we have the issue of people all over country Australia
providing their own meat and no, they don't own stun guns.*

A farmer with a gun is better than a 12 year old with a blunt knife in a backyard at Lakemba
However perhaps RSPCA should stop ALL home slaughter.

*597, those cattle can't be moved south, the numbers don't stack up*.

$180 $ per head to take them south- where’s the industry & the truckers??

*They don't like cold weather either.*

Nor do they like having their brains bashed to death with a chain cruel bustards who send them their & MLA + the government have known for years!

The first thing that needs to happen MLA to start replacing MLA.
Whoever was in charge of that programme has some explaining to do.

*Secondly they need to get some cattle moving, or there will
be an animal welfare disaster in the North.*

So get MLA to start trucking them

*That would be a disaster for our industry, with lots of suffering for the livestock involved.*

Be just what this country needs to get off their backsides and open plants!

*The Dept of Agriculture, which audits what MLA does and how it
spends its money, has some explaining to do as well.*

Well then, they had best keep the rest to build plants because the writings on the wall.
Its only MLA & the government that can’t see it.
Australian people want their money spent here & Animals Slaughtered here.

MLA are 100% responsible & the other 220 countries are worse.

if u guys had half a brain u would accept it & start building plants
But this thread is about ritual slaughter and RSPCA have 100% support

Gertrude, if you want to learn something about various slaughter
methods and associated problems, go to the Temple Grandin website
and learn a bit. She has been advising the meat industry for years.

MLA's charter is as a marketing and r&d organisation. Neither they
nor the Govt do or should build plants, especially if they make
no economic sense and eventually close when they go broke.

11 abattoirs in Indonesia are now equipped with stun guns etc.
It makes perfect economic sense to send cattle to Indonesian
feedlots and then process them there.

In the 70's i worked at Shepparton abbs in Vic; There was no problem with cattle coming from the NT in those days. Although they were hard to handle through lack of contact with human beings, and the sight of dogs was most distressing for the animal. Dogs were not used around cattle from the NT. Katherine abbs and Tennant creek were big works in those days manned in the dry season by cattle farmers. Tennant creek abbs does not exist any more.
An abbs was built in mid NSW, that would have seen the end of time, completely stainless steel. This abbs was used for 10 months then closed due to lack of stock. 15 million dollars worth only to be sold in bits and pieces.
Live export was embraced by farmers because it was cheaper;
Cattle stations these days are run by just a family group, mustering is done by helicopter, and other work is done by contract. Very little full time employment is there any more.

a597,

I would be very interested to talk to you a597. I have started a link here just for now because of the limited space here
http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=511&p=684#p684
a597,

You have a wealth of knowledge & I am sure u know that. As this thread is about stunning i have a place we can talk about your experience in the industry above. That way we are not going off topic- not that others haven't tried:)

**15 million dollars worth only to be sold in bits and pieces.*
Yes and we can multiply that many times over& much came out of the tax payers hip pocket.+

*Live export was embraced by farmers because it was cheaper;*
Yeh live exports was in part a pay back to unions& who couldn't understand that!But many farmers opposed it strongly and lined the warfs screaming about the cruelty to the animals& saying it would destroy Australia's industry and be the cause of the bush losing jobs too. Do u remember who the PM was at the time who brought in the Army to chase the farmers away from protesting live exports?

Was it Frazer? You might recall Mr Jim Dywer in those days? Worked the plants seasonal & then they all went to NZ& back again- did the rounds. Then they would ship it out with salted R on the decks. He worked in ME for a while & after that 4 of them met with the NZ PM to ban it from there too. They were pretty hard men but they tried to stop live exports horrified by the cruelty and slaughter methods.
Hard work in these days but they never treated Animals like they do in this ritual slaughter mate.*

Cattle stations these days are run by just a family group*,
Yeh mate big... family. They call it the industry:) but i call them cruel Bs.

Its an honour you have posted this information. Hope to see you on hear again soon- till then travel well.

Gertrude, if you want to learn something about ..
Temple Grandin website.
Stone the flaming crows Yabby dont tell me MLA have now just discovered Temple Grandin good grief. I thought that was brought to their attention on her slaughter methods at the last inquiry- or was it the one before that. Perhaps it was neither and they just picked up up in the last few months via the AA housewives association. Or they may have seen 4 corners where she featured saying she just couldn't get over seeing MLA all over the containers Australian Government while she watch a Australian cow being flocked to death by a chain & worse.
FYI
All ours are based on her methods Yabby. Ritual Slaughter is out!
Speaking of MLA special brand with AFIC? & Ikebal Petals er, partner-- Dont think the partner was consulted.- still whats another little oversight among many.

So I take it that You Yabby do not approve ritual slaughter- as I noted you said you raised it,. Nor do I or any other normal decent humane being. So at least we agree ritual slaughter is barbaric .
Good starting point.
The Govt should build plants, especially as they destroyed ours
Live exports is not economically viable and morally disgusting

*11 abattoirs in Indonesia are now equipped with stun guns etc.*
Wrong they are refusing to stun!
RSPCA have 15 here to ban doing ritual slaughter all done they say behind the , er, partners back.
RSPCA have 1550% support and will all support banning of ritual slaughter in Australia.

*Wrong they are refusing to stun!*

Nonsense. Companies like Elders run their own abattoirs in
Indonesia, all stunned. There are a number of them.

But you did not even bother to read the Grandin website. Or you
would know that her keypoint is about restraint and how it is done.
Having animals dangling on the chain, stunned but not dead, is
hardly a great way of being humane for instance. She also
acknowledges that Kosher is all about doing it right and there
are far worse systems in place, as animals hardly move when its
done right. You clearly don't even know what Grandin is on about.

What it comes down to is that neither you nor AA really know much
about all this. Go and inform yourself.

Yabby,
This thread is about ritual slaughter in Australia & RSPCA attempts to ban it & quite rightfully so.

I dont recall you answering the question do you Yabby agree there is no place for ritual slaughter in Australia?

You never fail to I amuse in a sad way. Now an authority on Halal* accreditation's. When i posted TempleG in prior posts you poo hood me.
That said, you will not succeed in diverting this thread away from the serious problem we have in Australia.

There is NO place for ritual slaughter in Australia end of story.

We are in fact making progress. We both agree on TempleG methods & that there is no place in Australia for ritual slaughter.
Some of Those Halal accreditation's FYI are *not in keeping with with ours. & you know there are 700 plants there MOST like we saw on 4 corners. Your MLA have upset them *again by not going through Halal committees .
Thats why they left your WA Minister sitting in a room nobody would take him to a plant.
Same as Ludwig misadventure by MLA again.
I am not the person who does the accreditation's or writes them. I told u many times they AGREE with TempleG. Ours will be all released at the inquiry - nice try.

With proper handling, & transport we were the ''only ones to suggest Indonesia & Malaysia were to be made Halal hubs of the world in a joint venture with Australia.
The smart@ interference - Malaysia are now doing something with Pakistan instead.In fact thats been happening since last year.Indonesia informed they were cutting cut back 75% before 4 corners fyi.
If the industry wants to sell your meat it was be most wise to target the Halal market. can be done by way of joint effort- we bring in investors and the industry work to establish areas & perhaps MLA could promote it given u said thats all they do.

Slaughter in Oz Stun& ship out
Not rocket science

Gertrude, the Indonesians are upset with Ludwig, because in Asian
culture there is a thing called losing face. Ludwig never had the
manners to ring his Indonesian counterpart, before announcing a
decision which affected their food security. Australian arrogance.
It had nothing to do with your claim about accreditation.

I have no view on ritual slaughter, because the science is not clear.
I have seen no measurements on endorphins released at the time,
which would clarify the issue. Humane slaughter involves many
things, most of which you seem to ignore. So its not black and white
as you claim.

You are telling fibs about Temple Grandin. Most people who work
with stock have heard of low stress stock handling. Given my interest
in neuroscience and livestock, its been a hobby of mine for years.
Temple Grandin in well known in the field, not just helping design
facilities for meatworks.

700 abattoirs in Indonesia has nothing to do with it, as the industry
has agreed to close supply chains. So in total maybe 30 abattoirs
will be processing Australian cattle in the future. Those like
the Elders facility are ready to go, but it remains to be seen if
Indonesia still wants them. If they start coming in from India
and elsewhere, we could well land up with foot and mouth on our
doorstep. The law of unintended consequences is never far away.

Halal Certification Authority - Australia
(
Email:
PRESS RELEASE
This Authority hereby condemns Majlis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) in the name of Islam for the heinous, disgusting and un-Islamic treatment meted to animals in slaughter houses under its watch.
This Authority has come to the conclusion that Handlers and Slaughtermen in Indonesia have no idea about Islamic rules on animal welfare and treatment. Also the Slaughtermen seen on the ABC report of 30/05/11 seem to either be oblivious about the rules of Halal slaughter or choose to ignore them.
This Authority would like to remind MUI that the following acts are forbidden in Islam:
 Hitting animals on the face or head
 Torturing animals with water or other means
 Dragging animals on concrete floors
 Slashing tendons or breaking tails while animals are alive
 Poking, gouging or kicking animals
 Letting one animal see another being slaughtered
 Letting animals see blood
 Slaughtering animals using sawing action
 Using a blunt or inadequate knife to slaughter animals
Animals in Australia are temporarily immobilised (stunned) prior to Halal slaughter with the knowledge and acceptance of all religious as well as governments in importing Muslim countries including Indonesia. Therefore Indonesia is strongly advised to stop the hypocrisy and copy Australia.
MUI Executives should stop gallivanting around the world to primarily enrich themselves and to extract funds from Western Halal Certifiers for their organisation. Instead they should stay home to put their own house in order.
For and on behalf of
Halal Certification Authority Australia
Mohamed El-Mouelhy
Chairman
Sydney 02/06/11

Press Release

The Australian Federation of Islamic Societies (AFIS HKM) ANIMAL WELFARE ORGANIZATION strongly oppose the export of live cattle abroad and “support the RSPCA process of stunning the cattle and all Animals before halal or non-halal slaughtering. The process of stunning should be applied to the animal while it is standing on its feet. The intensity of stunning should be such that if the animal is left un-slaughtered it should be able to get up and walk away.
In order to minimize the level of stress and anxiety to the cattle it is imperative that when an animal is being slaughtered the other animals should be isolated and kept away.
Stunning is the most humane way of making the animals unconscious before slaughtering and it ensures that they suffer the least pain.
This method of stunning complies with the States and Federal legislation's.
Australian Federation of Islamic Societies (AFIS) is due to open in six weeks.
,Dr Ameer Ali- Former advisor to the Howard Government on Islamic affairs
1. Dr Munir Hussain-10 years experience with AFIC and 11 years in SICHMA on Halal products
Wendy Lewthwaite

There was two types of stun guns. one had a ball head, not unlike a ball pein hammer, they were not a great success on mature animals which may have a skull thickness of 50 mm. This type of gun was discontinued.
The other was a parallel bolt about 125mm in length and 10mm diameter.
This bolt would pierce the skull and brain to it,s full 125mm depth and retract before the animal collapsed.
The brain of the animal is polvurized on impact. There is no recovery from the bolt gun, the animal is brain-dead.
Many people would be surprised where a cows brain is. If you draw a line from the base of the left horn to the middle of the right eye, and the same from the other side, where these lines intersect is the center of the brain.
So hitting a cow on the head will do nothing but hurt the animal.

Yabby,
TG The AA housewives& us have nagged u about her for years + even if-- many rip them out when u leave. Dont want western ways true. (not all)
#Those like the Elders facility are ready to go, but it remains to be seen if Indonesia still wants them.#

1st u know they will go to feed lots.
2nd so long as (stunned) prior to Halal slaughter- no prob

That still leaves 400thousand head in limbo because they cant process more than 150 th head (again) 24 hr shifts?
Get Wellards to ship some down to NSW!

Yabby they ""were"" refusing to (stun) ""prior"" to Halal slaughter- . AFAIK thats not changed.

Our Plants here stun prior to slaughter & they dont all have to go to the halal market either. ATM it only takes a smaller%.

* but it remains to be seen if Indonesia still wants them.*

We oppose them not stunning first. The best chance we have is for Dr Hussain and Dr Ali to be invited & MLA to get out of the way.
It shouldnt have got to this- the the industry have been warned for years.Industry feeds MLA bull & they are just office staff no idea of livestock/ plants.
I strongly disagree with u on ritual slaughter in Australia or anywhere else.

a597,

Thankyou but Indonesia wont accept damage to the brain. Thats haram ( forbidden) It must be a perfect offering to Allah not cracking the skull.
People Against Live Exports and Intensive Farming - What can I do?
Halal is a Qur'anic word meaning lawful or permitted. ... Cruelty to animals is an absolute not allowed. You must not show a knife to an ... matter of slaughter will not damage the skull and the brain on the animal. ... will assist in arranging export licensing and accreditation at their own cost.

Not enough room here a597- go to other link pls to go into detail
thanks

Gertrude, the Elders plant and others were stunning animals long
before this kerfuffle broke out. They are volume plants and about
4 of them can do half the Australian cattle involved.

But as Braithwaite pointed out, 4 Corners gave those plants about
10-20 seconds of its time.

Like it or not MLA is the organisation that does a job as ordered
by the Minister of Agriculture. He has all the powers, farmers
pay the majority of the funding.

Nope, cattle can't be shipped within Australia, it would break
quarantine rules. Their other option is to be shipped to other
markets like Egypt and Israel, but those are flooded now. Many
small pastoralists will simply go broke. This was the year that
was going to pull them out of the mud.

All this has nothing to do with accreditation, although I know you
would like to feel important. More likely they will put you
in a Burqa :)

The best chance now is for Ludwig to get out of the way and let
somebody else deal with the Indonesians. He does not seem to be
up to it. Rudd is the foreign minister, he should go there as a
matter of urgency. But then he is flitting around doing other
things. When it comes to agricultural matters, the ALP are
just frigging hopeless. The man in parliament who best understands
the whole issue is Chris Back, he's a qualified livestock vet.

Hello everyone.
I am somewhat following this thread with interest. I was looking up the net searching for Halal products and I came across this link

http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3396&Itemid=64
Bega goes Halal
One of the largest manufacturers of dairy products in Australia decided that accepting Sharia is the best way to get into the lucrative Islamic markets.

The company was proud to announce that ALL their cheese products are Halal certified, which in real terms means that they accepted Muslim extortion tactics and are tellng all non-Muslim Australians (still a majority) that they have to munch on Sharia compliant cheese whether they like it or not.

We seek accreditation from a number of authorities to ensure our cheese manufacturing procedures meet and exceed all relevant requirements. As part of this process we secured Halal accreditation in 1996, which remains valid today. The accreditation assists us to grow our export sales, and generate valuable export revenues for quality Australian produced products.

etc.

Ok as much as I love my cheese. It won`t be Bega anymore.

I do not want to support the cruel Sharia laws and I wonder how many food products already carry the Halal Label without us realizing it?

I for will search the net for more products ......and look for alternative articles.

Underbelly- thanks!
Yabby,
All your trying to do is divert this thread away from Ritual slaughter in Australia & RSPCA stand.
*But as Braithwaite pointed out, 4 Corners gave those plants about
10-20 seconds of its time. *
& I agree he should have got longer than 10- 20 seconds just on his* their track record of shipping alone.
Let’s give the man the time he so rightfully deserves shall we!
http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=507

*Like it or not MLA is the organisation that does a job as ordered
by the Minister of Agriculture.*
Yep nothing like putting a bunch of bureaucrats on 400k a year wages that know zip & a poly likewise As Minister.

*Nope, cattle can't be shipped within Australia, it would break
quarantine rules.*
Change them or this will get worse. Ts the practical thing to do imop.
They truck them there all the time.. What the diff.

Their other option is to be shipped to other
markets like Egypt and Israel,..
Nope can’t do- long trip harem - no stun- harem

*small pastoralists will simply go broke*
Probably not- big ones yep could be.

All this has everything to do with accreditation Yabby. What do u think Ludwig was arguing over?
That btw was their first mistake. What I want is the best outcome for Australia’s agriculture & humane treatment of animals.
I am the only one working ( or trying to) to assist so if that makes me important so be it.
More likely they will put you
in a Burqa :)
No Yabby’s tbo want them banned
http://thuppahi.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/ameer-ali-of-peradeniya-perth-ban-the-burqa/

The best chance now is for Ludwig to get out of the way and let
somebody else deal with the Indonesians.
Correct! & we send urgent email to Ludwigs office telling him Dr Hussain & Dr Ameer Ali would go.
& they ARE the ones to sort it- if it can be now.
NO reply from Ludwigs office – how slack. Told MLA but..
This email is for the URGENT attention to Senator Ludwig
Mon 20/06/2011 9:47 AM

No matter how hard I try I'm finding it impossible to imagine how cruelty could be inflicted on cheese in order to make it Halal.

Underbelly, welcome & thanks for the link& hope u stick around. I ran out of room earlier pls dont think u weren't appreciated for your efforts.

morganzola,
http://myislamicfamily.com/2010/04/26/a-shocking-discovery/
is cheese made by non-Muslims allowed or not?
Rennet is extracted from the stomachs of calves and contains enzymes that are used in the cheese making process. Bellow are quotes from scholars of the four schools:

##Posted by Lexi, Monday, 27 June 2011 12:41:37 PM
I would hope that these practices are part and parcel of ancient rituals and the animals suffer as little as possible. If not, why does the government allow it?##

Why does the government allow it u ask?
My thoughts- because they lack guts, brains & want the Islamic finance . They were SUPPOSED to review this a year ago? WHEN??

Ammonite, posted good info & u should read it. If we dont stop the way they treat animals it will be us & ours kids next. Well may people say I dont want to know-- but u need to imop- we all have a HUGE WAKE to happen.
posted by Ammonite-
http://arthurdobrin.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/changing-kosher-nd-halal-slaughtering-methods%E2%80%94the-moral-case/
http://www.grandin.com/ritual/schematic.html
Posted by Ammonite, Monday, 27 June 2011 12:58:01 PM

Not long ago we saw Ikebals Patels AFIC Presidents regrets
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/it-was-a-mistake-to-mention-sharia-law-admits-australian-islamic-leader/story-e6frg97x-1226076664279
Now this
http://www.christianpost.com/news/jesus-a-prophet-of-islam-muslim-group-runs-provocative-billboard-campaign-50722/

Those who think this is not connected with Ritual Slaughter are wrong but I will start another thread.

RSPCA most certainly have the peoples vote of support to ban ritual slaughter.

In the days before the stun gun, a spiked hammer was used. This implement also penetrated the brain. I do not know how cattle can be stunned without penetration of the brain. I have seen cattle come to their feet and bolt as a result of missing the brain, whilst stunning.
The restraint was called a knocking box, after the animal is shot, they immediately collapse. A door at the bottom is opened and the animal rolls out. One man cuts and ties the throat so stomach content does not exit, another man shackles one hind leg, the animal is then hoisted up in a vertical position and placed on a hanging rail. The main artery in the neck is then severed, and the animal is completely bled out. By the time you do this 400 times a day you can shower and go home.
Shepparton in the 70,s was the most mechanized abbs; in the state of vic.

a597,

Thank you but this of course is not ritual slaughter what you describe.

Do you have an opinion on ritual slaughter a597

That was accepted as halal slaughter in the 70,s and performed by a home grown moslem. The positioning of the knocking box was altered to face the right direction for both sheep and cattle. That method was the only way it was accepted practice as per RSPCA. An iranian flag was on the wall behind the moslem. The first type of stun gun was discontinued because it did not immobilize the beast and did nothing but give the animal a sore head.

What type of stunning are you suggesting ?

The stunn gun that entered the brain was also used at Kyneton abbs in vic. This was also halal slaughtered meat by a moslem. The pig chain was converted to a goat processing chain, in order to get the halal contract.
Moving on today, sometimes internet is hard to get, but i will be looking in when possible.

I do support RSPCA calling for Australian abattoirs to be bannedf from ritually killing animals without stunning them fist. If the butcher cut him self so hi must feel a pain there fore the animals do the same why do we have to let them suffer, its just not right.

Underbelly

Hi and welcome

I have always been REALLY annoyed that Vegemite is halal. It still annoys me . Its accredited by AFIC Australian Federation Islamic Council. President is Ikebal Patel the bloke whose been asking for sharia law.
To me Vegemite has always been like our Aussie mascot. Says who we are .
I dont like our Vegemite being turned halal % every time I eat it or buy a bottle or carton I am tipping money into some Islamic Council.

Vegemite belongs to all Australian for years its been our unofficial national icon

'Halal' just means 'permitted' under Islamic rules, doesn't it? That implies that the manufacturers of Vegemite figure they'll sell more of it if they advertise that it is Halal on the package - a bit like the Muslim equivalent of the 'heart smart' ticks for the soul.

I must say that I find objections to labeling of appropriate foods as 'Halal' to be among the most ridiculous of anti-Islamic sentiments. It's exactly the same food, which is entirely unaffected by what anybody thinks or says about it, nor by what' s written on the label.

One would have expected a slightly more enlightened approach from someone who purports to be involved in the Halal food industry in Australia. Are the 'Muslim leaders' you're always name- dropping aware of your antipathy to AFIC? Doesn't seem like a very smart approach to business, if you ask me. I'm beginning to see why 'Halal Kind Meats' has been less than successful in its project.

Yabby,

reply from your post Tuesday, 28 June 2011 8:35:40 PM the Elders plant and others..

Dear Yabby,
I didn’t want to interrupt the RSPCA Ritual slaughter thread but as its died I will now respond to your posted info on 28th.

#Like it or not MLA is the organization #..-

Reply - I don’t think anybody likes it.

#Nope, cattle can't be shipped within Australia, it would break
quarantine rules.#

Reply-

I have seen cattle sprayed in trucks at tick gates& I am sure u have too. There is no reason they cant be sprayed on board ships& shipped down from NT to NSW and other states 24 hr back to back shifts. Unusual times call for unusual steps. There is 1000 people out of work in one plant alone due to lack of stock. These are extraordinarily urgent circumstances and requires thinking outside the box. Something the Government are not good at. I think the PM is surrounded by bad staff& bad Ag Ministers advisers tb

Halal Vegemite?

Does this mean the veggies might be stunned prior to....

Agreed "halal" is just another label it doesn't really change anything. Can anyone detect the difference in flavour of halal or kosher slaughtered animals to those slaughter without religious ritual? Anyone been zapped by a bolt from on high from eating such meat?

What is important is HUMANE methods where animals are treated respectfully and calmly as possible - there is no perfect method, however we do not need to be needlessly cruel either.

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/rec.ritual.slaughter.html

I have made this link before, but it is to a wealth of information regarding religious and human methods of slaughter.

##All this has nothing to do with accreditation,.##

This is where u are so wrong Yabby. From the Indonesians end its ALL its about. In order to produce meat to them it must be Halal;. Otherwise they cant get accreditation they cant sell it. So their imam has had too many chats with Mr Patel but that CAN be fixed. It can be fixed imop by Dr Ali. Just like us they have their own little committees . The Government will NOT crack through this without the help of a respected iman being invited through their committee. & it must be somebody *they respect. I am not going to argue with u about that any longer because you always have to appear you know best. So just leave it. Next week you will read i the media Skinny Tony s going-
& will make it much worse long term for all.!


#The best chance now is for Ludwig to get out of the way and let
somebody else deal with the Indonesians.#
Reply
Yep

#He does not seem to be up to it.#
Nope & wont listen. PMs staff hung up in the ear of the kind people who offered- Great PR PM!

So its in the bag now as far as I am concerned. The best thing they can do is move them out to other plants instead of sitting there talking about dumping cattle all over parliament lawns

60 years + one woman said on TV shes been doing this.

My God who would want to make a $ like that.

If they dump em on the lawn it shows the public even more how little they care about the stock.
The PM has done the right thing & it should have been done years & years ago. Just goes to show it takes a women to have the guts to do the morally Right thing.
Lercourts and some of the others are NOT broke. There are 3 plants up there- buy them and get up operating

Yes Seasonally as it always was!

Have a nice day

morganzola
Ah good old aa always ready to pounce. Firstly i am not posting as Halal Kind Meats. Yes I support GOOD Islamic council but Ikebal Patel & AFIC imop as me ( Kerryanne) have bent over backwards to course disharmony. I think too many Aussie seeing Vegemite as our long time icon would agree with my sentiments. Now u want to talk about AFIC ok & HKM sure. AFIC and Mr Patel to my knowledge always supported stunning.
ALWAYS & wanted live exports banned etc..

After being awarded with Australia day Ambassador Mr Patel started demanding Shari law and ritual slaughter. A great surprise to many.
I heard it was a even bigger surprise to HKM he demanded 2mill from Federal Government & many other media outlets with them as his ""partners"" all unbeknown to them. It would appear to most normal people AFIC & Mr Ikebal Patel have offended most of us including the Attorney General who rushed through there will be no Sharia law in Australia.

The great Muslim Leaders I* posted have nothing to do with AFIC i assure you .

Some people just like to cause trouble and here you are again to prove just that.

Back to my personal thoughts on Ikebal & Vegemite. Just like to signs up through Sydney saying Jesus was a prophet for Allah Yep the Vegemite urkes me.

Ammonite,

I dont think there is any meat in Vegemite but there is cheese and Kraft have gone Halal. We talked about cheese a little earlier so i wont cover that again.

Nor do i mind Halal providing its been stun first- no problems at all.

I was just pointing out given this thread was about ritual slaughter Vegemite is AFIC accredited and AFIC and its president now tell everybody they support ritual slaughter. That WAS my point.

If Vegemite were to be accredited by those supporting stunning I would have no problem. I do personally have a problem however with money going into an Islamic council that supports ritual slaughter Sharia law and thumbs its nose at RSPCA.
Its down right un Australian.
Plenty of Muslims support RSPCA & stunning. AFIC are NOT one of them they ""now"disclose.
So like I said it urkes me each time I buy a jar.
Halal Veggies- In fact all veggies are halal if there is not haram fertilizer.

Yes tar seen the links others use them.

Getting back to veggies yep a chain of Halal veggie food outlets night be a good one for PETA .

Always interested in your comments

Have a nice day Ammonite,

Kerryanne

Apologies for making very poor joke.

You do have a point about the new product containing cheese (it is a product just not on my radar). However as vegemite does not contain ANY meat (as you say) there is no conflict of combining a dairy product with meat, which means labeling as Halal a bit redundant and rendering it meaningless.

Regards

a597

Hello & apologies for delay in my response to you. Interesting comments as always.
a597
What type of stunning are you suggesting ?
Reply

The same stunning used in many plants such as NRM that are RSPCA approved.
If your talking cattle - or sheep differs but electric. Take a look at the links Ammonite posted.
Tell me I dont suppose you recall the Halal accreditation Society name or the imman back then?

##The pig chain was converted to a goat processing chain, in order to get the halal contract.##
I think somehow that was supposed to be kept a secret but i guess it doesn't matter now.:)

##Moving on today, sometimes internet is hard to get, but i will be looking in when possible.##

Good luck with your move and we look forward to hearing again from you a597 & thanks for your interesting comments and background knowledge on slaughter methods.

Ammonite
Sorry I should have realized from you it was a joke-but rushing. You have no idea however how many times people have asked that question with serious enquiers .

##which means labeling as Halal a bit redundant and rendering it meaningless. ##

It may be meaningless in the content you expressed yes
But overall its not to Mr Patel and AFIC. We have RSPCA fighting to ban ritual slaughter and Animals Australia as well as hundreds of other Animal Welfare groups both in Australia and world wide and rightfully so.
To do this costs $ making sure Australia keeps it Animal Welfare standards in regards to abattoirs.

Do you have any idea the amount of $ gained from each jar box of Vegemite- Iam sure you do. So its not meaningless in that concept.

Thats is why i get annoyed every time Vegemite is brought
because in my opinion its going back to a Islamic Council that demands ritual slaughter sharia law all of a sudden & to raise funds towards this campaign from my Vegemite is beyond the pale
btw good to see someone with a sense of humor on here- Doesn't happen to often.

I will see what can be done to save our Vegemite & support RSPCA dow the track

Have a nice day & thanks for the joke even if i did miss it!:)

@ Kerryanne:

I wouldn't have said anything if you hadn't posted your vegemite nonsense. Has it ever occurred to you that your singular lack of success with your 'Halal Kind Meats' might have something to do with the antipathy you evidently hold towards Islam?

Perhaps you could turn your exceptional lobbying skills towards a boycott of Kraft? Cheese, vegemite - what's next, Halal peanut butter?
It could be the end of Australia...

Gertrude, there is far more involved in quarantine protocols then
a few ticks. But I won't even bother to explain it all here.
Ask your vet next time that you talk to him.

Beef City has not closed due to a lack of cattle, but due to
a collapse in demand from Japan and a high Australian dollar,
which means they can't make a profit. No profit - no business,
as I keep trying to explain. Australian beef can't compete with
American beef.

Yes a disaster is unfolding in the north and there is a simple
solution. Resume the trade to Indonesia tomorrow. They have
feedlots, works with stun guns and a market, all ready to go.

Meantime it will be 3 months before any of those cattle are
slaughtered. That is plenty of time to install more equipment
where required and put protocals in place to track animals.

Given that AA sat on their footage for months, clearly there
is now no good reason not to get going again, or that disaster
up north will unfold.

morganzola and all
I have been following the thread and it seems to me what Kerry Anne is saying is right.I understand that she supports Halal products to a certain degree - but does not want to support ritual slaughter without stunning which AFIC is supporting.

Having a product labelled Halal is a very good thing,but it becomes a concern when a company allows a product being labelled Halal and then in fact is supporting the ritual slaughter without stunning.

I am horrified that Vegemite and Kraft has gone down this road too.
It seems to me that you support ritual slaughter. Sorry morganzola- I don`t.

Yabby,
I am aware of Japan & my point: plenty closed- get them open.
You know they truck then hundreds of thousands of miles to make up quota for plants. I am trying to say is Wellards hold the key for now & should be pushing to ship them within Australia to be disbursed. This is something Wellards can do & only them . Its in their interests too. They cant just sit swearing at the Government & AA. Time to take their own practical action. Wellards ships are the answer atm because its going to be months before anything happens if not a total ban.

#Resume the trade to Indonesia tomorrow#.
Thats not going to happen & its not up to you or I.

#Meantime it will be 3 months before any of those cattle are
slaughtered.#


As well it requires 25 plants brought up to standard not 6.
Even if we paid we have no control & they can & will do it there way. Cattle go out to many plants & their are 700 of them all over the place.

People come to buy- & they sell them simple.. Nobody is going to stand their saying - oh, these are Aussie cattle & must go to ABCDEF your kidding yourself if you think its that simple.

Given that AA sat on their footage for months, ..
Yabby, Its not the first footage is it? Hasn't this been going on for years? The industry are the ones who sat on their hands for years & the government allowing this brutal treatment to our animals & these blokes are NOT our real Aussie farmers imop.
No room for such people in Australia to destroy our National reputation for all of the Australian public.
Our Nations Greatest Shame is live exports & allowing ritual slaughter.
The public wont stand for it. There are plants there open them Ask mR lercourt hes made heaps out of this disgusting trade!

*I am trying to say is Wellards hold the key for now & should be pushing to ship them within Australia to be disbursed.*

Gertrude, you are free to charter a Wellard ship if you want, open
whichever plant you want, try and find staff and try and market the
meat. Meantime we won't hold our breath :)

There is already a great supply chain in place, it just needs closing
at the end. They did it in Egypt, they can do it elsewhere. Its
pretty straightforward, even if hard for you.

Meantime the ships could get moving tomorrow with cattle bound for
Elders feedlots and others which have great abattoirs in place and
can close their supply chains. All quite simple really. It will
happen one of these days, there is no other solution.

But the vegan brigade will never accept that, as they are still
chanting their flawed mantras based on flawed ideology and a flawed
premise.

Hi All,

bit more research into ritual slaughter. Found the previous Minister called a inquiry but this goverment are not doing it.
I took the bother to contact them. They said they had spoken with a few stake holders in the past and were happy with that. Surley that all stake holders should be included.

information here http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/welfare/aaws/specifying_the_risks_to_animal_welfare_associated_with_livestock_slaughter_without_induced_insensibility and here http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/welfare/aaws/a_scientific_comment_on_the_welfare_of_sheep_slaughtered_without_stunning. You would have to contact the Animal Welfare Branch regarding the status of this review

@Underbelly:

Sorry, I just can't follow the logic, unless Kraft are involved in ritual slaughter or live export, which I don't think is the case. You appear to be associating manufacturers of all Halal food with cruelty in some forms of ritual slaughter. While I think your heart may be in the right place, your thinking isn't, I'm afraid.

I'm pretty certain that no animals are inhumanely slaughtered in the production of vegemite, but you could possibly have a case if the rennet for cheese-making is taken from animals that have been inhumanely slaughtered.

Is that what you were getting at? If so, my apologies.

Forgot about rennert, but aren't there many alternative enzyme solutions that can be used in cheese production?

Definitely staying away from cheesy vegemite regardless. Just don't see the point - can always add cheese to the toast.

Religion - in our lives whether we want it not.

Ooops misspelling should be 'rennet'.

morganzola,

Yes it was and that is ok. I am not born here.
Sometimes things dont come out how i mean either.I love cheese and
vegamite but now i know this afic use ritual slaughter i wont buy it.


I see what done to calves as a child making cheese overseas

I think i will look for good procucts to make a list for people. We have a rifgt to know.

Yes Ammonite correc

*I am trying to say is Wellards hold the key for now & should be pushing to ship them within Australia to be disbursed.*
Yabby,

How do you do. I think Gertrude from what I have read has tried to help and at least made suggestions

There appears to be a nasty tone to several of these comments from what I assume members of the vegan [parade as you put it.

May I say Yabby, you lot cannot expect others to clear up your mess. Do you need somebody to pick up your socks too.

Are you in this trade or just interested in live exports as a topic of discussion?

I picked up the phone and called two graziers whose numbers were on the net. I too would like to help farmers and animals both.

I told them I was reading a forum and someone had suggested using the ships. So do you know what they said.

They said that was raised at a meeting and it had a lot of support but government red tape was the problem.

They said too that the shipping agent had to be the ones to request it. He said shipping and were concerned if they pushed it they would miss out on the other contract ( whatever that means)

They thanked me for calling and said call again anytime. They said they agreed the footage was terrible on 4 corners too.

All your posts keep saying they have to send them . You don’t seem to understand they are not going to.’

Doesn’t matter what I think.

Just think maybe any ideas at all from Kerryanne or Gertrude as you call her, or anybody else are better than none.

Well that’s my lot. I do hope everybody can treat others with respect. Before I go I would like to say thank you to those brave Muslim Leaders who have spoken in support of RSPCA. It can’t be easy for them dealing with the other more extreme.

Yabby, Nobody likes the way our animals are treated. Are you not horrified too?

My turn to say sorry because i should not have agreed with yabby speaking of veggy p. i am sorry i had just watch a video 4 corners and say silly comment. yabby who ever they are they do better job than yours regarding concerns for animal welfare. i think too the boats are a good idea and better sitting back crying because they sent animals there and yes i think all knew. lets fix it by opening here.

PETITION TO THE HONOURABLE THE SPEAKER AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ASSEMBLED IN PARLIAMENT: The petition of certain citizens of Australia asking the House to review the decision by Kraft Foods Limited to label Vegemite as Halal certified. We believe that such labeling is unnecessary in a Country where ..http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3287:boycott-vegemite&catid=180&Itemid=18



So we know this is accredited by AFIC who support ritual slaughter.



Kerryanne can the others do something about this with their accreditation to these big companies? I think the Australian public should have the right to know if they are buying something that has been involved in ritual slaughter.



I want clear labelling and to give buyers the education to make a choice. Thank you for what you are trying to do. Can non Muslims join this Animal Welfare Organisations too Kerryanne?





I found this too- I will not! Eat their cheese! Kerryanne you are very brave to take these people on and I wish you and the others all the luck in the world. I read your organisations web site.

'rennet'. http://www.afic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/20-29-ma6.pdf





The MLA-developed Halal brand appears on retail meat

packs and point of sale and guarantees that the meat has

come from an animal that has been slaughtered according

to the strict Islamic Shariah. Under the new arrangement,

Halal meat sent from Australia to Islamic countries is

accompanied by an official government certificate and

stamp which is further endorsed with an authorised Islamic

Organisation stamp.

In Australia, the Halal process is regulated through the

Australian Government Authorised Halal Program (AGAHP)

by AQIS and is supervised by independent Islamic

organisations.

All Australian Halal meat is labelled as having passed

through the AGAH program and this certification is only

allowed to be placed on meat that has been processed at a

registered Halal certified abattoir.

Australia currently exports beef, sheepmeat and goatmeat

to over 40 Islamic countries, including Indonesia, which is

Australia's fifth largest beef export market. It is estimated

that there are over 2 billion Muslims around the world and

that the market for Halal products globally is worth $570billion annually

Gawd here we go, the best friend is back. Gertrude, you are so
predictable.

Good intentions without thinking through the unintended consequences,
is what created the mess. Good intentions are not enough to solve
it.
Around Australia thousands of farmers are making it clear to a very
jittery Minister for Agriculture, reopen the trade. He agrees and
so does the Prime Minister, so now its just a question of the date
and trying to pacify the Indonesians. Meantime I'm told they are
busy installing lots of new equipment in Indonesia. Good.

Dear Yabby,



I see you are not going to answer my questions but given I have lost my glasses , I thought you might help us all out by reading “today’s” media releases

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/regions/content/201107/3258320.htm



http://abc.com.au/rural/wa/northwestwa/



I can’t see your claims being announced there – can you? Tell me do you grow anything else.



The Prime Minister will not reopen this trade for a few months. It would be political suicide and who knows what else she has seen…



It could well be that public demand makes the Government ban it in total.



Regardless of that I am very much behind RSPCA banning ritual slaughter in Australia.

Perhaps you could grow Pumpkins and get them Halal accredited given your interest is only in the $.

You seem to lack any empathy for these animals and protect the very ones involved in inflicting this treatment on millions of Animals.

You can’t be partly responsible Yabby. If your friends hold up a bank and your only driving the getaway car you just as responsible.

If you turn a blind eye to ritual slaughter in Australia you are just as much a part of the problem as those directly involved.

I will take a guess and say you’re in your later years. Ok, but think if you want your grand-children forced to follow these extreme cruel laws.



If we don’t protect the Animals from cruel ritual slaughter who will protect your grand-children

http://qcl.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/agribusiness-and-general/political/gillard-says-cattle-exports-to-thrive/2211737.aspx?storypage=0

There ya go. If she doesen't hurry up, those boats will be off
to Brazil to load up and nobody will worry about welfare then.

You'll just have to watch the Australian cattle die of hunger and
thirst, when it happens later on. It will be filmed, that I can
tell you. Such lovers of animals, these
vegans.

It is estimated

that there are over 2 billion Muslims around the world and

that the market for Halal products globally is worth $570billion annually......Look! The RSPCA should stick to cats and dogs. Religion like I always say is nothing more than stone-age man-made rubbish. IMO, once the animal leaves here, what they do else-where, is none of our business.

570 billion! really! and Australia is letting this slip through its hands because Halal is indescribably cruel?

For that kind of cash, 'ritual slaughter' is a little out dated. Yeah right.....what the hell are you people doing?

GIVE THEM THE COWS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgeQFAbUD7Y&feature=related

I think its a case of first world meets third world religious practices which the western people just simply don't understand.

Well, I would like to ask the RSPCA and other animal rights organizations what they think about what fisher-men do when killing the simple fish?

I myself take out my knife and while its still alive, I cut its throat.

Is that not Halal? or is it OK because its not religious?

mmmmm don't want to be seen as a hypocrite:)

Here is Jeff Dunham with Achmed.

This in IMO is all we have to be concerned about when it comes to 'ritual slaughter'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouDRDzqTu0M&feature=related

LEAP

I haven't noticed any 'vegans' posting on any of the recent animal rights threads.

Even if they are, I believe they are as entitled to expressing an opinion as we meat eaters.

Last time I checked Bob Katter was not a member of PETA or PALE however he did have this to say:

Independent MP Bob Katter has accused Meat and Livestock Australia (MLA) of “towering incompetence” after it admitted that is has been aware “for years” that there has been widespread animal abuse at Indonesian abattoirs.

Last night MLA’s export manager, Michael Finucan, told ABC TV’s Lateline that the organisation has been working in Indonesia for a decade.

“We’ve been working up here for many years and we’ve always known there’s issues,” he said.

“That’s why we commit resources and time and energy and effort into being in Jakarta, being in Indonesia and delivering these programs.

Mr Katter reacted with fury to the revelation, saying the MLA should pay compensation to the cattle farmers caught at the apex of the crisis.

The decision to suspend trade has left tens of thousands of cattle in limbo across northern Australia, in feed lots or en route for port facilities.

Mr Katter told Lateline that “almost every single aspect” of Mr Finucan’s comments filled him with anger.

“This person tonight admitted that they knew what was going on, that they’d sent people in to have look at this, they knew what was going on and they’ve known for years and years and years about it and they’ve done absolutely nothing about it,” he said.

“They’ve been paid a fortune to carry out things in a toweringly incompetent manner.

Cattle farmers are legally required to pay levies to MLA, and Mr Katter said they would suffer under the trade suspension.

“The Government, what have they done? They’ve punished the beef producers,” he said.

Cont'd

Cont'd

"“These people live on our frontiers and I can tell you, they don’t live particularly well. They do it very, very hard. And we deeply appreciate what they are doing for our country.

“Who’s going to pay the penalty for this incompetence? Those poor people up there in northern Australia, our frontiersmen, they’re going to pay the penalty.

“The people that were responsible for it will go off completely unscathed.

“The Meat and Livestock Authority is paid $4.20 for every beast. That seems to me to be – and I may stand corrected – about $50 or $60 million a year,” he said.”

http://tinyurl.com/4xq97t6

As I have stated before, not all farmers agree with the MLA.

Furthermore, point of fact the RSPCA is in the unfortunate position of rescuing a diverse range of animals from appalling conditions - not just "dogs and cats".

http://www.woaw.org.au/9to13/cattle-rescue-in-victoria/

Underbelly,
Yes anybody can join& they dont only do Halal but all meat. It is an Australian Organization with the best interests of Australia.

Ammonite
Katter wants more abattoirs- but he said first we have to get live exports up & running again- figure.He is drawing a lot of support. No plans, no ideas, just noises of dumping cattle.

Yabby,& everybody pls read this. It is very long but gives a informed view of the live export situation. If anybody wishes to us any info from it for the inquiry that is geat. Pls just mention Roger a WA man who knows this industry insight and backwards. Hes no veggie or animal lover.

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=510

Now Yabby,
After you have read that- and only after pls look at this---& remember what Roger said. It takes a while to load & WE have our own people- No aa required. START OPENING PLANTS HERE.
http://www.veoh.com/adultwarning/watch/v19216202Gy66H2N4
You people and I refer to MLA & others have no idea where or when the next lot of footage is going to spring from.

You just CAN NOT stop a full ban on live exports.

Do MLA pay you Yabby to come in here saying silly things? or do you do it because your bored. I note you wont go for a walk with me in the MLA thread thread. Yet your always talking about MLA said ABC.

Speaking of MLA I hear the er partner , that was not informed about AFICs ritual slaughter is none too happy. Wonder why MLA thought it was ok without contacting the er, partner.Just another thing for the inquiry- but I do apologize this thread is after all about ritual slaughter isnt it.

So MLA are promoting/ supporting ritual slaughter without asking the Australian Public farmers & er, the partner.
Come on Yabbs lets take a walk together on the dark side. Lets go into the MLA thread & really have it out.

Or are you too chicken?

*As I have stated before, not all farmers agree with the MLA.*

Ammonite, who ever claimed that they do? But at the end of the
day MLA are there, they have a job to do. If they did not do
the job according to their charter, as instructed by the Govt,
then who is to blame? The only one having any real control over
MLA is the Minister of Agriculture. MLA cannot just do as they
please. They do in fact do some very good stuff in relation to
r&d automation etc. They have done some good work in marketing,
which is their role. But they can't just spend money willy nilly,
to suit the day. The directors are limited by their charter.

Yes, the RSPCA deals with various animal welfare issues, that is
their job. But it is not their job to get involved in economic
or political ideology. It is not their job to tell pastoralists
that they will just have to restructure their businesses, because
the RSPCA thinks its a good idea.

Animal welfare is the issue. If animals are healthy, gaining weight,
being fed and watered, that is what matters, not wether a feedlot
floats or it does not.

Yabby,
You do this all the time. When people post info you ignore it. This is supposed to be a debate ( an informed debate)

I am posting this - again fyi & everybody's.

pls read this. It is very long but gives a informed view of the live export situation. If anybody wishes to us any info from it for the inquiry that is great. Pls just mention Roger a WA man who knows this industry insight and backwards. Hes no veggie or animal lover.

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=510

Now Yabby,
After you have read that- and only after pls look at this---& remember what Roger said. It takes a while to load & START OPENING PLANTS HERE.
http://www.veoh.com/adultwarning/watch/v19216202Gy66H2N4

Gertrude, we have been over the live trade issue, over and over
and over again. There is plenty of information out there. Either
you can raise actual points of reason, or you cannot. If you have
some to raise, do it right here.

If you think building plants is a good idea, nothing is stopping
you from doing so. But do not try to deny farmers the right to
earn a living, or to be monopolised by local processors, who care
about nothing but their own bottom lines. Pastoralists too have
to pay their bills to run their stations. Selling their cattle
for 70% less, in order to fit in with your ideology of the world,
is not a realistic option, dream as you may.

Now fact is, we can analyse the live trade as it is today, quite
well. Handling before going on a boat, has improved dramatically.
Boats have improved dramatically, feed has improved dramatically.
Livestock gain weight on a boat, unlike on a truck, where they
can lose 10% or more of their bodyweight.

Feedlots in countries of destination have improved dramatically.
Those in Indonesia and some in the ME, are as good as or better then
anything in Australia. Now the slaughter loop is being closed too.
Finally the Govt has listed the rules, which is has never done before.
Don't expect people to comply by rules, unless you specify them.
In Kuwait and other markets, slaughter facilities are being
upgraded. That is all happening right now. The rest is frankly
meaningless drivel about what happened 10 years ago or whatever.
It won't win you any points I am afraid. Stick to facts, happening
now.

*Feedlots in countries of destination have improved dramatically.*

Are you sitting down? Here is news.

We dont want feed lots.

The long term view for Australia is Halal & others FREE RANGE FARMS

You want the facts- I am giving you the facts straight up.

I think I might invite Roger on here to debate you ok? I am growing tired of saying the same things.

We have warned the industry over & over again! clean up your acts.

Stop the cruelty. Your biggest opposition comes from the Muslims themselves & not just here but world wide. Your so busy with your head up your@ you dont listen. I admit to having some differences with Patel on the ritual slaughter issue- which will"" be sorted but on everything else we STAND united. We support AA RSPCA & the Australian public.100%
Halal is growing- the world is changing as Roger pointed out.
Your SO ignorant of real facts. I swear I reckon your really in NT. ( Not that WA doesn't have its boof heads.) Roger excluded.

Your WA Minister was warned a year ago- did nothing. Yabby, Halal is growing & going to dominate world wide. We ARE going to do it our way.
Its a done deal, cant you see that. Crikey!

Its not Me"" Or you"" & what we say here that matters.

The bigger players are are making their moves now.

I will say it again the world is changing. Yes it might take a while - but not long. Stop telling ME to invest in plants & get the $ back from MLA and do it yourselves & be snappy about it.
Cruelty must stop NO live exports! Muslims say NO to live exports its not Halal & an insult to the Koran. I will let you know when Roger is free to debate you on OLO- Dont do your silly little disappearing act either
I dont know what your so miserable about Australia has a great future under some sensible ""value adding projects.""
Whats that do I hear you ask?

Hopeless

*We dont want feed lots*

Gertrude feedlots are quite legal and the animals do well. What you
want, frankly does not matter.

*Halal is growing & going to dominate world wide.*

And so? They can bid on our livestock like anyone else. I think
best that buyers of livestock decide what is halal and what not.
Places like Kuwait are quite able to do decide that for themselves
and don't need some hysterical Aussie chick to do it for them.

If the Arabs want to build plants here, they are free to do so.
It is not the role of MLA to build plants. They are essentially
a marketing and r&d company. That goes clean over your head, no
matter how many times I repeat it.

At the moment we have healthy competition in the saleyards. Some
sheep go local, some on boats. We want to keep it that way.
It keeps everyone honest.

*Muslims say NO to live exports*

ROFL Gertrude. Is that why they keep ordering boatloads of sheep
and cattle?

Its really pointless however to argue this with somebody who
wants to ban feedlots. You should go back to your veggie burger
project, somebody on the Gold Coast will buy them.

Hello everybody,

I found more on ritual slaughter in Australia and reinforce my support for
RSPCA and AA. This is plain cruel.

http://www.australianislamistmonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content
<http://www.australianislamistmonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=
view&id=4361> &task=view&id=4361

1. Halal food is simply a religious food tax imposed by Muslims on
non-Muslims.
2. Food prices are increased as manufacturers pass this TOTALLY
UNNECESSARY set of extra costs onto unsuspecting consumers.
3. OUR freedom of choice is taken away as food all becomes halal and
more expensive. Failure to provide non-halal food is discrimination against the majority (98%) of Australians.


Muslims do not require halal food at all as they are free to eat anything that isn't deemed haram yet increasingly ALL our food is 'halal.'
The Australian population is being ripped off with the compliance of slaughter houses and manufacturers for they now carryout processes which are inspected by a Muslim and a Muslim group issues a halal certification certificate if it complies with sharia --- and YOU pay for this although YOU, the ordinary Australian does NOT require your food production to comply with sharia and YOU do NOT require halal certification.

Paying a religious food tax to Islamic groups:

The halal certification industry is a big money earner for certain Muslim groups and that money is creamed in part off the Australian public.

An article from 2008 gives an idea of how lucrative 'halal' certification is to Islamic groups -re The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils - (one of about 17 certifying groups often linked to mosques)

(The) 'AFIC is the biggest Islamic umbrella organisation in the country and is made up of dozens of representative Muslim bodies, which sit beneath the nine state and territory councils. It acts in an advisory role to governments and derives most of its income from rent on land that houses Muslim schools across the country, and the certification of halal food.
It manages an annual budget of about $20 million and assets of about $50 million. (O'Brien, 2008 Australian

Come in here to say what I did about killing animals without stunning them first. Been a butcher long time. Worked worked many places seen many things. Now i am still butcher but export world wide too. Be glad to see the end to both,ritual slaughter and live exports.No bloody excuse to treat animals way i saw in those countries. Cant understand any bloke backing those bloody cruel bastards seen it first hand. Read that report you put up girlie good report. Just all of you keep doing good. Me mates are in the industry backing this aa mob. So not all against and reckon this Lyn girl needs a bloody medal.