What is democracy, is it majority rules .
Is it the loudest does.
We elect governments to,well rule do we not.
On every issue they seem to be more intent on those who shreak the most.
Do majority's drive boat people debates? Animal welfare, carbon tax,read the figures more say man made is changing our world but more do not want to pay.
What is the best form of Democracy.
The all inclusive hear every one, you would think so, But honestly think 80% of us Liberals and Labor think much alike.
And that just maybe our voices are just whispers in comparison to small self interested groups who claim ownership of public opinion.
And use that deadly weapon Political Correctness against the majority.

What is the wanted out come, do we ignore minority views or include them.
Do we bend to them let minority views win often.
I truly understand we should/must be inclusive if we lock minority's out, because we out vote them, we farm devision.
But is every minority view worth inclusion.
I am aware, one here on line now who I admire, good morning Morganzilas.
Says often my views are racist, but are those of SOME minority's not racist too.
We always slip toward the Muslim faith or boat people in such debates.
Aboriginals come next unemployed same sex couples ,greens Labor Liberals is there room for consensus.
Animal Welfare brings near war, few if any do not call for it but minority's chant mindlessly we do not care.
I offer links and posts in the thread the law is an ass, as evidence SOME minority's farm with intent, trouble, in these matters do majority's have a right to say enough?

Top of the morning to you too, Belly :)

I agree with you that some minority groups are nothing short of ratbags, (and also that mainstream groups also harbour ragbag individuals).

What is democracy? It means simply 'rule by the people', but there are various versions of how this is achieved, and none are perfect. Personally, I think that our system fails because of its built-in 'winner takes all' aspect, which typically leaves around half the electorate unrepresented in government, and also creates the current situation where both the majors' first priority is to keep the other mob out of government.

We could certainly do better in terms of democracy, for example by amending our voting system to one of multiple-member electorates with proportional representation. This would go a long way towards ensuring representation of minority groups in government at a level commensurate with their representation in the electorate. We could also take a lead from America, where regardless of which party wins the election, government ministries and executive functionaries are appointed according to talent and experience, rather than blind party allegiance.

No doubt there are any number of ways that we can make our system more democratic. What is increasingly obvious is the need for quite radical reform, so that we elect governments that are there for us, rather than the other way around.

the cure is..*decentralisation*

[get rid of state govts..and councils]
and replace governing authority...by school district*

that opperates locally
while the fed govt acts globally
[fed govt underwrites the local schools

who grant local uses..
of their own local ritches..[common wealth]
giving half the moneies..[if any] to fed...who supports the other LOCAL school diastrict's

in affect governing
is like attending a pary meeting
local issues are resolved by the people who live there

all govt service runs out-of the schools
you want anything to do with giovt process
simply join the class on the subbject....

EVERYTHING govt does
is done,....OUT Of the school...[locally]
all decisions are made by concensus..[locally]
each school sends a local rep to represent them into govt

each govt meeting will be to resolve special issues
and these are decided by those we specificlly send..to specific metings..ONLY CALLED to resolve specific issues

in affect the same person wouldnt sit in on everything
only that they are qualified to decide

[decided by those taking the subject...at their local school]
in affect kids will rule over us

they studdy every topic raised locally
at the local meetings..[broadcast livetime..on the web]
with only locals being heard..

[just like a current party meeting]
only they make their own local laws..

if your not a local..go to your own governing meetings
people must get involved locally..[bottum up..not top down]

Sorry morganzola, yours is the most unfair con of all. Sounds nice, but only works for the fringe people.

The electorate always splits into largely yin & yang, left right etc, & the minority exploit their "controlling vote" to their advantage. A quick glance at the disaster that is Tasmania will show this.

Sorry UOG, your model really only almost works, & then only in very small communities.

I have seen it almost work in island communities of up to about 3/400 people, but even then some get very rough treatment in these places. Once a population reaches to a thousand & above you get competing villages, which grow into waring tribes.

I have even seen on atolls, with a number of inhabited islands, all by related people, deadly fighting over fishing rights.

The whole history of the Pacific settlement is one of small settlement on an island growing, & even before getting anywhere near the limit of resources, driving out a portion who had to find a new island.

I think the idea of small self governing groups is bound for tyranny of some, & much fighting.

I've said it several times before on OLO, Democracy is the worst kind of dictatorship.

Dear Belly,

I'm probably going to get yelled at for this - but I'm happy with the system we've got. Just not the current leadership at present. Still, it could be a lot worse. Though I'm not sure how. Anwyay, we're free to criticise our government - nobody puts you in jail if you voice your opinions and if we don't like the ones in government we can vote them out at the next election. My only criticism has been the current attacks that have been taking place between the parties recently. I wish that they would be civilised towards each other and stop muddying the waters with personal attacks. Criticise policies by all means - but do more that just criticise - offer better ides. Just tearing somebody down is not very constructive and usually ends up not being taken seriously. Where are the statesmen and leaders - all we have currently
is a bunch of bar-room brawlers - which is not very encouraging. And at times downright nasty.

we can vote them out at the next election.
Lexi,
In theory yes, in practice no. Just look at our last federal election. Despite the fact that that Government was on the nose it got in again but not via democracy.
Same in Qld several years ago when Peter Beattie's Government went off the rails they still got in again and, again not via Democracy. Our so-called Democracy is in actual fact a dictatorship of independents.
Oakeshott & Wellington called the shots but they weren't in no way elected by a democratic majority.

No Kicks from me Lexi, I agree.
But why are we forced to bend to minority's,what can we do about it?
What minority's are we talking about.
I am apolitical Animal, my fears will be around that, but not exclusively.
Who can look me in the eye and say they are not concerned about the impacts of this hung Parliament.
In a month the greens, [have you looked at what percentage of the vote they have?\ will control our upper house.
The fix, get rid of the senate.
Fear runaway fools? then fixed elections every 30 months = Accountability.
The speaker has foot prints all over his back, thanks Oakshot!
Noisy foolish children from both sides of the house.
Lets change the rules expel offenders for one full sitting of Parliament.
Family first? how did that well named but Dysfunctional team get a seat?
Why am I a racist because as one of the majority I fear the idiots out side that court and ask why are we letting trouble build like this.
Yes we must be inclusive but surely to some extent SOME migrants must too.
I think, may be wrong, apart from funerals and weddings most Australians are not Christians.
Why then do we see everything from sporting and trading bans in their name.
Why at Christmass, why please tell me? do some shops remove reference to CHRISTmass so as NOT TO OFFEND 2% of our population.
Are majority rights flexible but not minority's?

@ individual:

I don't think that you can claim credibly that Australia's State and Federal elections aren't democratic. I know for a fact that the AEC and ECQ go to great lengths to ensure that they are conducted democratically, ergo the results of any election conducted by them are democratic. I'm sure if the AEC and ECQ had fallen down on the job they'd have been taken to court by one political party or another!

That's not to say that elements of our particular system couldn't be made more democratic, for example by the adoption of the kinds of system I alluded to above - which would increase the representativeness, and hence democracy, of elected governments.

You seem to be able to find fault with our Westminster form of democracy. What system would you recommend that would be more democratic?

What system would you recommend that would be more democratic?
morgonzola,
I'd like to see an australian system with one vote one value, flat tax & National Service.
Why, we're always on about how we don't need Mamma England no more yet we cling onto her systems like we haven't been weaned off mother yet.
Let's have it out once & for all. Become a Republic with our own brand of electoral & Government system. We can set a date for it and off we go. We can't become a functional Republic under the present system. We all know it doesn't work. So, let's set it right. There's no better time than the present.

"I'm probably going to get yelled at for this"

Not so far.

I largely agree but while the rest of us play the personality issue as well the pollies are unlikely to drop it. Our system has made individual pollies the focus, often their electability is about how they are perceived rather than the kind of job they will do.

A reserved polly who does not have good answers readily at hand does not survive the media. The best job is probably done by those who take advice from those who know the topic's, not those who are able to spin any topic but the latter looks more competant.

R0bert

the latter looks more competant. (e)
R0bert,
That is what scares me so much. I wonder how long it'll be before some Logie winner decides that Politics is a lucrative lurk & presto, the masses will forgive any incompetence as it will be glamourised by the leftie media. The closest to this scenario were Peter Garrett & Maxine (Lexi ?) KcKew. I believe there's an australian actress vying for followers already.

@ individual:

Now you're talking! Aside from flat tax and national service I pretty well agree with much of what you say in your last post - and tax and national service aren't directly related to matters of democracy anyway.

With respect to 'one vote one value', my understanding is that's something we pretty well have already. That's why the Electoral Commissions are constantly altering electorate boundaries, isn't it?

Or are you talking about preferential voting, which is quite a different thing altogether? In that case you'd need to specify your objections to or support for any of the various forms that exist in different democracies, before I could say whether I agree with you or not :)

and tax and national service aren't directly related to matters of democracy anyway,
morganzola,
I tend to think that everything is part in building a successful society be it part of that utopia democracy or not. We have all these variations to negate responsibilities at random but what we really need is a concrete set of rules with no alterations because of this n'that.
Make people put their cards on the table. After all, I have to when I want to do something.
People speak so highly of the Westminster system but is it really so great ? Yes, it is better than many others but we could have an even better/fairer one. I for one appreciate what has been a good system but as all things go, the Westminster system has had its day.
As for voting, if there are to be preferences then state up front who they go to. The Independents fiasco of late is an unfunny joke.

Dear Individual,

You keep referring to the "Westminster System," well according to Dennis Pryor, "Political Pryorities:How to get on top of Australian Politics," the "Westminster Ssytem," is "the illusion that the Australian government works, or should work, on the same principles as the British government. The similarities between the two systems are largely those of decor; like the use of the mace. The major difference between the two systems is that Australia is a federation, a concept totally incomprehensible to the British. An appeal to the
"Westminster System" is a slogan used by Opposition parties in an attempt to rick their opponents into foolish resignations."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/senior-police-are-demanding-prosecutors-appeal-the-aquittal-of-carnita-matthews/story-e6freuy9-1226081994538
The link belongs in another thread.
But that thread is no longer even remotely about its subject.
Here how ever I do think it adds to my concerns minority's do have, at times, more power than majority's.
In this case MAINSTREAM peoples wishes come last.

Only after I posted, then came back to read others contributions, a bad habit.
Did I see Individuals reference to *The Iron Duke*
Windsor mate is your target.
Rob Oakshot was a National party member, he held,after leaving that party, his state seat with a HUGE majority of votes.
He won the FEDERAL seat held as safe National party one, by a former Deputy Prime minister Mark Vale, who jumped ship to avoid justice the the AWB matter.
Oakshot flogged the national candidate huge win.
He was not conservative had left his party in protest his electorate loved him.
Tony WINDSOR had much the same following after walking away from the subservient National party,a servant not of country people but Liberals.
Windsor has backed a conservative state government was he a traitor then?
Bob Katter too left the National party, in NSW at least,and until Rudd's Fall the Nationals shrunk a little more at every election.
Is Katter a traitor?
Wilkie is not traitor, very few who preferences him thought he from third spot in the first preferences would win a seat.
He is strange, wants like his SA SENATOR mate to govern by poker machine, and in my view should not be in the house.
But your references about Tony and Rob,are not close to facts.

But your references about Tony and Rob,are not close to facts.
Belly,
So you're saying that had those two told their supporters up front they were going to give their preferences to the ALP they'd still have received the same support ?
Also, I have no qualms about your enlightening facts about the others, things I wasn't aware of.
My gripes is with not telling the voters up front. It is deceitful in the least & it also cost us dearly for a long time before the mutts made up their mind. Elections should be elections not an auction.

Bell,
We also need to ask Oakeshott & Windor to highlight the benefits to this Nation after twelve months due to their decisions.
I for one would dearly like to know.

@ individual:

Again, not much disagreement with what you've put there. The trouble is, you don't seem to be clear as to what your actual problem is. We have a concrete set of rules (i.e. electoral laws), but these are (rightly, in my view) subject to challenge and amendment via our democratic processes. I don't agree that it's possible, or even desirable, to draft a set of rules that can't ever be changed by anybody regardless of changed circumstances. Indeed, that's moving into the domain of religion and theocracy.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by "making people put their cards on the table" in this context. Perhaps you could expand on that a little, with an example or two of what you mean?

You speak in generalities about the Westminster System, then declare that it "has had its day" without specifying why or what needs to be changed. What would you replace it with?

Lastly, I agree completely that political parties should make public any preferencing arrangements prior to the election to which they apply.

Individual, you need more enlightened comment.
So here is some Labor did not run a candidate against Rob Oakshot in his state seat, he was invincible.
And Labor was content to not have a National in the seat.
He,I think, got Labor preferences in the federal election.
REMEMBER he had no links to CONSERVATIVE POLITICS, you have invented them.
Much the same on your thoughts and WINDSOR not the Iron Duke.
On what basis do you claim AN INDEPENDENT should not independently pick his choice of two offers to best serve his people.
Tell me you would not be crying if he went your way would you?
You know don't you, you have a one eyed view of the world.
And no case to stand on.
You do not fear minority control you fear any control that is not as you wish.

then declare that it "has had its day" without specifying why or what needs to be changed. What would you replace it with?
morganzola,
With a totally new system, made up by australians in Australia, for Australia. The present system is obviously not working why else would there be so much discontent.
Belly ,
AN INDEPENDENT should not independently pick his choice of two offers.
I couldn't give a hoot which one the independent supports as long as we're told who his/her preferences go to before we vote.
You do not fear minority control you fear any control th
at is not as you wish.
I fear the present mindlessness continues unopposed. You just have to look the damage that was done to Queensland when that mutt Wellington gave his preferences to incompetent Beattie instead of competent Borbidge. I rest my case.

@ individual:

That's all just a bit vague, don't you think? While I agree that our current Westminster system is less than ideal and has inbuilt anti-democratic tendencies, I still prefer it to, say 'party list representation' free-for-all as in Italy, or the Presidential multi-party plurality of the French model.

If, as you suggest, this apparently widespread discontent in Australia stems from our model of government, surely you've got some specific structural criticisms of our current Westminster model, not to mention some positive alternatives you'd like to see incorporated in the "totally new system, made up by australians in Australia, for Australia" that you advocate.

Otherwise you run the risk of sounding like just another whinger who doesn't have anything positive to contribute.

"totally new system, made up by australians in Australia, for Australia" that you advocate.
morganzola,
What is so vague about that ? If we are so much for Democracy then let's start one. i'm all for it. Or do you call the present system democratic where minority groups dictate, laws are disobeyed, public servants are unaccountable, super fund companies can run away with the money unchallenged etc etc. Do you want that to go on ? I don't.
Can't you even just for a split second think of things that go without saying. Are we so devoid of imagination & foresight that every little feature of a new idea needs to be printed out ? What about thinking more about a new system & what could possibly be achieved rather than dismissing a proposal up front. That is what some of the fanatical crews are practising. Do without thinking, just follow. Not good ol' son.

@ individual:

With the exception perhaps of your claim that "minority groups dictate", the problems you cite aren't caused by our system of government, so ditching the Westminter system wouldn't solve them. If you mean minority political parties, I don't see how they can dictate anything, since they can only act in collaboration with others to form a majority.

Would you be happier with a single-party system? I understand they have them in certain countries that describe themselves as "democratic". Despite your claims to be a "thinker", it seems to me that you really haven't thought this through, have you?

Please note that I'm not dismissing your proposal. Rather, I'm asking you to provide some detail beyond motherhood statements. Anybody can say the system's stuffed and whinge about the way things are, but that will never achieve anything. If you want to ditch our entire system of government, you'd better believe that you'll be asked in some detail what you intend to replace it with.

Individual, do you understand? you have just put a wish list including Racism, xenophobia, blindness.
I can only inform you, based on your words you want only Australian born, is that it?
To redraft our system to exclude, for sure greens ALP any one you target, is that not your wish?
I am sorry that you have tracked us away from the threads wanted direction, but too that you add to minority's concerns, that some in majority's have no balance.
How ever, I rest at ease, you are part of no majority, with views like yours you are part of the problem not the answer.
Harsh, no bloke your views seen here over the years are minority ones.

morganzola,
After 40 years of experience plus listening to others including monarchists & republicans it is more than clear that things are far from happy. I am saying that I am in favour of change but not for change's sake as the present republicans are arguing. I'm for change to rid ourselves of the many inefficient, incompetent & downright criminal rules, regulations & those who are charged with upholding these. Anyone who is saying that we're not on a downward trend so far as saving this country goes is having themselves on. A change is needed & needed soon. Call it republic, monarchy, Westminster whatever you want but we can not escape the fact that we can't go on like we do presently.
Belly,
I don't understand why you too see the need for those insipid accusations. I have not said anything to the effect you claim, on the contrary I want to rid ourselves from the very traits you claim I'm trying to instigate. You're getting more & more wrong with your replies to my posts. Your desperation must be hitting top gear.

@ individual:

I'm sorry mate, but I'm having a bit of trouble here. You say you're in favour of change, but not for its own sake - but you don't seem to know what you want, other than "to rid ourselves of the many inefficient, incompetent & downright criminal rules, regulations & those who are charged with upholding these".

Those sorts of changes are certainly desirable and possible within the framework of our current legal and political system, so I'm still unclear as to why you think the whole system needs to be replaced - and even less clear about what you want to replace it with.

It's not good enough to simply assert that the country's on a "downward trend" and we have to "save" it by replacing the entire political and legal system, without specifying what's wrong, what the causes are, and how whatever alternate system you propose is going to fix it. At this stage you haven't done any of that. Far from it - indeed, all you seem to be doing is calling for change for its own sake, as you accuse Republicans of doing..

At least the Republicans have a well-thought out alternative model or two for consideration. At this stage all you seem to have is a litany of unspecified complaints, with few concrete ideas about how to solve them.

Individual/Morgonzola I want to talk about my view of the current state of the western world.
I, in a thread I started but left as an refugee, RObert both praised me, and said my politics are rubbish.
Indy,no offense,I believe your politics are poorly presented and you you not me fail to under stand much about the subject.
In 1945, at the end of ww2,the politics of this world tipped up side down.
Both Russia and America/the west learned a great deal about propaganda from the Devil who served Hitler, and used it, without regard to truth.
We stopped looking as close as we should at what politicians, and often their bosses, big money, did with the power we gave them.
We can look back now, if we want to, with honesty and hind sight, see how America committed great crimes in South America, control, murders invasions.
If we ignore that we say our crimes are not crimes , we claim immunity for the very things we fight against in say Afghanistan.
In Australian politics I believe, no side is free from being influenced by big money, no side has not been victims to self interests.
Medea, OUR RICHEST people play, with our permission granted by our blindness, puppetry with our Parliaments.
I could post 20 posts then 100 more and only touch the surface.
But INDY, your words,read you post history, say LABOR/GREENS any one who did not vote conservative, well know mate we are the warriors,first to enlist in war first out of the trench's and we are not UN AUSTRALIAN because we defies those like that thread above calling for us to be taxed out of existence, imprisoned in an AMERICAN PRISON.
KKK, like racism xenophobia, hate like Nazi like.
Every thing I fight against because?
Yet it is just a minority who think like that a sick uninformed one.

At least the Republicans have a well-thought out alternative model or two for consideration.
morganzola,
are you sure about that ? Because they say so ?

Who are the republican's ? Turnbull, Rudd, Garrett Wong, Brown ? Do you really think that these abysmal failures would improve by calling themselves republicans ? Where would they get the required integrity from & if they have it why aren't they using it now ?

mate we are the warriors.
Belly,
Yeah, in a losing battle.

Just remember , it might be a great party but you still need to clean up the mess.

Wedges can be very uncomfortable.

Now seriously the minority wedge can make as much noise as it likes but in the end it is the majority, the voters, and the politicians who represent them that make the final decisions.

Despite occasional diversions, we in this country see to stay on a reasonable path and having seen other nations operate we should really not complain.

@ individual:

As far as an Australian republic goes, I take the fairly relaxed view that it will be a fairly natural progression, once the current Queen eventually dies. While I'm hardly a fervent republican, I see this as an opportunity for Australians to put in place a form of government that can address the kinds of issues that evidently bother you, among other things, that is robustly democratic enough for the challenges that face us in the 21st century and beyond.

While I don't share your jaundiced view of our society, nor even of the republican politicians you name, as I said the ARM has at least clearly outlined two major republican models - differing in the method of the election of the President - that they took unsuccessfully to the 1999 referendum. Of course, that was an artificially imposed dichotomy, inserted by John Howard to ensure a negative result: there are undoubtedly countless republican models out there to adapt or choose from.

Unless of course you'd like to retain the Monarchy... which I'd suggest has much broader ramifications than "whatever we want to call it". Indeed, despite your stated desire for systemic change you don't seem to have paid much attention at all as to what form it should take. Instead, you demand that the system somehow guarantees "personal integrity" - as if any system at all can guarantee that.

Indeed, given that you include Bob Brown - who consistently rates very highly in the general electorate in terms of personal integrity - in your hate list, I'm wondering if you use that term as arbitrarily as you use others like "democracy". It seems to me that really what you want is for somebody else (who must be "Australian") to come up with a political system whereby only people you like are elected and people you don't like remain unrepresented.

I'm not sure how I'd describe such a system, except that it wouldn't be in terms of any kind of democracy!

Individual, one of us is wrong, very much so, I am content to be judged.
Right now I am both happy and sad about my party.
Unhappy my faction in NSW ,with its hand on the knife in Canberra,let the NSW ALP fail.
Tell me true, why we Joe and Jane every Aussie did not known of the true Kevin Rudd long before he fell.
I claim because, even now, self interest, in both party's, miss uses us all.
POWER not policy's drives them.
But show me a better way, an acceptable way for those who should have control the majority.
Do not under estimate the great historic things Labor has and with luck will achieve post 2007.
NBN, NO side tracks, a great country changing achievement.
Climate change tax, a difficult but achievable win, even if it removes us from government IF THE GREENS do not MURDER IT as they did once, our proudest achievement
It proposes a further pension rise far above the increased costs
Abbott, without mining tax or climate change tax, intends tax cuts, payment to big polluters, who pays mate.
You and me.
Look at the increasing nature, just here in OLO of HATERS such as those mentioned earlier.
We are divided, basing our judgments on self interests of Medea owners politicians on both sides wanting to put their head in the sand ,forget who put them there and why.
Exposing another part of the body.

Morganzola, would you please detail for me the republics you admire, that you would most like to emulate.

It does seam to me that many republicans are in love with a dream, that has yet to actually be produced in fact, anywhere.

Dear Hasbeen and Individual,

Let's look at the bigger picture just for a moment. The Queen of England no longer represents the average Australian. As it stand now,
no Australian could ever aspire to be Australia's Head of State. Don't we need to change our system of government to properly reflect our independence as a nation? When the Queen stravels overseas she promotes British companies and British trade, not Australian interests. Shouldn't the Head of State be a position awarded based on merit, not birthright? In today's Australia the monarchy is not an appropriate symbol for an egalitarian and independent nation. BTW -
Can Australians travel to the UK without a visa? Or are they treated as any other foreigner? If Britain has moved on - why shouldn't we?

The newly wed Royal couple are touring right now.
The Republic of Canada actually, no subservient British flag, like ours, no knee bending but both sides are enjoying the tour.
We should be a Republic.
Majority's are being pushed and shoved wedged and lead , by minority's who have to become parasites on us all to have power.
We, most of us, want perfection from governments, any of them.
Just beyond us to see from either side, at best,we get close to the middle results.
Then complaining because their every wish was not met, more minority's, some what extreme at times form.
Some research, say start with Italy, from post ww2, will see minority's inflict problems and insecure government on majority's.
Tony Abbott without a hung Parliament, without his dream he can win over the independents and take power, would not be so awful as he is.
He, with Medea ignoring truths they can see but will not, is more dangerous than any public figure post Mark Latham.

why shouldn't we?
Lexi,
Why some on this thread still view me as fighting change is truly beyond me. I'm all for change. The sooner the better. I'd have thought this is made rather clear in my posts. What I don't want is the present hangers on in authority is to simply cross over into a new system & continuing in their incompetent ways & costing the rest of us as dearly as they've done for years.
Let's have change, not changing the positions of those who need to be removed from decision making.
I don't want things to continue, I want them to stop. Like the union delegate who told me this morning that he was expelled from the Labor Party because he questioned Qld Government practices & wanted to help workers. In a word a true Labor man, not one of those pretend ones.
I want to change the system that allows people to cross the line at will without fear of retribution.
Morganzola & Belly, why are you trying so hard to pretend not to understand. Neither of you is that simple & you know exactly what I am alluding to, you're just worried others might want the same.

Many times Individual, like a hungry Trout to a fly I have risen to what I thought was your bait.
It becomes clearer in every thread we meet in.
It is not a bait.
It bloke is a total refusal the believe any one can think differently than your self.
Morgonzola has ,time and again, asked you to put meat on the skeleton you put in front of us as a better way.
Even calling those words a skeleton is being too kind.
It is the very center of understanding politics, knowing all views must be heard chewed over and then and only then discarded if that is the majority's wishes.
BUT if the majority come up with an evil wish, do we ask government to over rule? I think yes.
Think about all the different views on any subject, I risk red neck rage, but say man made climate change.
A majority believe the science is right man is making it.
Yet now few less than half want to pay for it.
You blast away at Labor, mate in truth defame me for my union/Labor roots, ignoring every possibility it is you who are at fault.
I left my job, as an act of protest, against a bad and BULLYING boss, no union official worth his pay would not.
But that union is still our best, of course your grumpy mate will pull down those who removed him, just think, any chance he was wrong?
Indy balance mate put your views here in print, you get stuck into me and Morgonzola, for not being able to read your mind.
Abolish the senate, one vote one value, 30 months between fixed elections,less power to states and get rid of as many local government Councils as we can.
Make things work or die but say some thing about your plans.

This mornings polling seems to tell me two things one that my thoughts are not far wrong.
Gillard can not recover, now it was not all her fault, her party failed to take Kevin Rudd head on, but she can not recover.
I am shown, something I knew, have seen before,the power of propaganda.
Lets look at those nice comfortable advertisements, for the mining industry.
We have seen similar before remember.
Some intent on finding fault, stopping mines, got rolled by them once.
Why are we seeing these nice warm story's in the form of adds.
Is it because of a pending fight on the tax, or fear of anti fracking as water burning while coming out of a tap pictures are seen.
I ask, do you see they are advertisements? or just links to prove public service via community involvement.
We are puppets moving as instructed by those who own us not governments business, they own governments not us.
CLIMATE CHANGE almost every sign confirms the science, some true rubbish, see its a German plot to rule the world,madness,exists.
Yet few consider we are driven like cattle by self interest to wards places and thoughts others want us to go.have.

Belly the trade unions used all sorts of tactics to protect it's income and power base when threatened with workers getting the opportunity to negotiate on their own behalf.

Lot's of add's that showed just the side of the story the union bosses wanted out there, the voices of workers who benefited from having more options were not part of that story.

The miners are doing what the unions did.

R0bert

@ individual:

I can't speak for Belly, but my purpose in this thread has been to try and ascertain whether you are someone who has a positive vision for Australia, or whether you're just a knocker. It's very easy to whinge and moan about individual politicians, or indeed our entire political system, but it's a much harder ask to provide more effective alternative structures or mechanisms to ensure integrity of elected and appointed officials.

As it turns out, you don't seem to have the slightest idea about what form an alternative to our current system might take. As an example, I provided reference to a couple of republican models from the ARM, but they are only a couple of possibilities. What you are calling for is the replacement of the entire current political and electoral system, seemingly without the faintest idea of what you'd replace it with.

Sorry mate, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're unable to show that you've done any work towards proposing a solution to the supposed problems you bang on endlessly about. You claim not to want change for its own sake, but from where I sit that seems to be exactly what you want.

@Hasbeen:

As I said, I'm not exactly a fervent republican myself. However, the republican structures of e.g. France, Germany or the USA all have strengths from which we could draw.

RObert here is the truth, I am not anti mining, get full of rage at the illy things stopping progress.
I high lighted their adds, but did not disagree with them.
THEY appear for the same reasons UNIONS FOUGHT WORK CHOICES.
SELF INTEREST.
While we are talking, you avoided answering me last time, so will not ask again, but was it you in another forum years ago?
Now I am not always right, true,but if my politics are bad how about the thread calling for ALP, GREENS, voters to be exiled/taxed out of existence, or my combative mate individual here who thinks and says often, ALP voters betray AUSTRALIA.
I HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR YOU.
Went back to a thread I promised not to,I need you to know I do not threaten anyone, do not ever plan to.
And that I feel threatened by the thought I ever would or that I target other than one who targets me.
Individual I think as Morgonzola does, we can talk , we can explore better governments but not without your plans here in writing.

IF I do not get an answer to my question to RObert a conservative I admire, it will disappoint me.
The one about three comments
Truth is I got more than a little wrong at the last election.
Before that. like most Australians I thought Rudd would be leading.
But I did make mention of our ability to stand in line and vote differently, but for the most part not hate.
I was wrong.
It no longer is true.
Wandering around market stalls, both weekend days, you can cut the hate, the miss information, the deliberate lies, we will pay for this wound in our culture.
Those three posts above,think about them.
I would be in total shame, to own any of those posts.
Would have, hours after posting BEGGED forgiveness.
Are we this bad? are Australians getting further away from she will be right mate?
I even feel[ and will never change] I just maybe should not have said in my defense what I think breath and know, a poster is not fair dinkum.
But lets leave that time will fix it.
I want to talk to Indy, to hear his views I want RObert to understand unions are not all the same not always bad not always wrong.
No one ever should judge any one on his/her associations or those associations on gossip and headlines in self interested [there is no other] Medea.

That is a bit sad, look I understand my politics gets folks of side.
My diatribes against greens, minority controls, refusal to embrace every lefty issue.
My constant reminders the conservatives ,forget the Nationals they are only a servant,are very far from LIBERALISM.
But those three posts, no one wants to stand up for conservatism?
No one wants to say hang on blokes you should not say that.
What chance consensus? what future Australia, is fair go mate dead.
Too disillusioned to find a link but Sydney's lady Mayoress, a person best not described, has put the word invasion in the opening ceremony's , she has in one move, hurt reconciliation more than anyone.
As no one wants to remind us those posts are not Representative of conservatism I will do it.
Abbott is the man he always has been his knife in the face of his requested candidate for office is his down fall.
Turnbull will put this party back on track,but it will be only a one term government.
Labor has said we stand tall kill us if you want but only after we get a cost on emissions passed go you good thing!

belly, "but was it you in another forum years ago?"

Pretty certain not. This is the only general discussion forum I'm part of, I take part in a couple of special interest ones (hobby related).

"The one about three comments" - not sure where that is.

I did have a friendly dig about your politics on the other thread, a way of pointing out that we are not on the same side of that divide but that I still like and respect you. I can't imagine you threatening someone online.

I was concerned that you were setting yourself up to look like the one in the wrong in the comments you were making, thinking of some advice Sam gave me recently http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12153#210513 which I don't do well at following.

R0bert

No mate I under stand RObert years ago I was an older member of a younger, mostly, forum.
Gee think it was Australian politics but not sure.
Within the forum a game developed teams became labor or liberal one in government one not I never took to the game.
Not truly sure about the name, a great forum folded, we by invitation joined a spin off, some one posted there as RObert.
Was a conservative not unlike your self showed balance and understand.
I get it wrong often, but will leave My last two posts in that thread as my final but firmly held views.
I refer to a thread, have not looked lately, that see me/my party/my government/ all who voted for us condemned to exile in Alcatraz, Nehru , or just taxed out of existence.
RObert that to me, even in jest is tasteless.
An interesting thing, that forum too fell, was deliberately infected.
Yet another off spin and it became a desert.
I was on another forum, its administrator posted here often, he stopped me putting a Link to my other forum.
His forum, his second one to do it died.
He took over the one I was on, and came here often to,,, recruit for his!
You will find it is again not doing well.

This morning I am haveing one of those moments we all should have.
Been up and about read too many news sites and papers to count, sleeplessness drives that.
Entered the OLO waters informed and ready for comment.
Came here and noticed I had diverted the thread,several times.
Then asked my self about my last post ,combative? needlessly provocative.
Would I be better just not posting in the thread [it was another]
I am unsure, oh I know some will dislike me for it.
That I would be better for not saying it, but in others eyes not mine.
I think as I wrote,as I did on launching this thread.
Are concerns about such as boat people/refugees,Multi Cultures about a race or a religion.
Can a minority turn such subjects in to directions we do not intend so as to weaken our views.
I think yes if our country, had a system that let, no not let made [for inclusiveness]every one say what they thought majority views would at times be confronting.
But if it is majority why let minority's overrule?

belly quote/...""Then asked my self
about my last post,combative?..needlessly provocative.""

sometimes we need to be provoked

""Would I be better just not posting in the thread""

if you disagree with any thought
yet chose to remain mute[silent]
why bother at all..if your not even going to speakup

''I am unsure,..""
im unsure what[or ratrher why]...your being unsure about

"oh I know..some will dislike me for it.""

mate so what
will you like you better
for a hitler or mussolinie greenie
agreeing with you?

""I would be better for not saying it,""

me too mate
but i need to live within me
if others are wrong...can i let their error decieve others?

""Are concerns about such as boat people/refugees,Multi Cultures about a race or a religion.""

they are about fear's
as much as standing up for those allready hard done by

""Can a minority turn such subjects
into directions we do not intend..so as to weaken our views.""

of course..[look at the greens
or the pokie issue]...it all depends on
how much their support is needed...and what they want from you in return

""I think yes
if our country,..made [for inclusiveness]
every one saying what they really thought...""

fear..then..

""majority views would at times be confronting.
But if it is majority..why let minority's overrule?""

because the majority are ruled by delusional fears
they are there..for THEIR special needs...[their fears]
not the needs of others..

im pretty much getting over
the need to tell anyone anything..about anything

[flat/out forcing myself out of bed...
only to have ignorant people say ignorant things]
its only that i was once believing the same errors
that forces me to try now so hard to correct the same basic miss-takes..

so ignorantly parroted
by my brrr-others...decieved into the same old fears..
by the same old media spin and fear..and out and out lie's

morganzola,
sorry about the delay of reply but I was suspended for a couple of days. What is it that makes you fail to understand what I mean by a new system ? You're asking me to place a decisive clear-cut model on the table but on the other hand I get accused of not accepting what others think.
I say, let's work on a new system via input from everyone. Surely, you don't think this can be done in just a couple of OLO sessions ?
My starting benchmark is one vote one value, flat tax, national service, limits to Public Service pay, Compulsory pension contribution, Politicians go on a pension like everyone else, People who put their life on the line for us are to be paid accordingly, Public Servants should not be immune to dismissal, Medical upstarts spend three years in the bush, in a Police shortage situation Army personnel become deputies, Magistrates be made accountable, etc etc.
your turn now.

Ps.
As we apparently can't have the afore mentioned conditions under the present Westminster system then I suggest we conjur up another one. I don't give a hoot what you want to call it I just want a system that is fairer, more honest & more accountable than the present one.
Forget the artificial academic complexities which only serve those who aren't contributing but are rather conservative when it comes to sharing the worker made wealth with the workers.
Of course to change a political system as such is not as simple as saying let's change. We might even get away with just making the present system work according to its principles.

May I join in? and if we first keep to politics then social change we may cover more ground lead I will follow.
I support one vote one value, totally.
But want to be Devils advocate, Small party's and independents will mostly die, so too without deals party's like the National.
So what do we do? Morgonzola says more seats, ok by me, lets say rural seats, all non city ones have set numbers much lower than average as of now, not enought seats to over rule majority's.
Fixed terms, shorter so accountability comes set dates 30? months apart.
Take the American recall law, ability to get individuals out of office mid term if they do great wrong.
On positive side one value voting sees majority representation, Wilkie sits in Parliament on preferences being third past the post.
Family first time waster won a seat on ALP preferences and never supported them.
No reason we can not change referendum rules so massive majority's are not needed ,and put difficult issues at every election then act on them.

@ individual:

Thanks for the reply. Depending on what you mean by 'one vote one value', I think all those objectives you list would be achievable under the current system. Indeed, we already have one vote, one value at the Commonwealth level and the States are far less gerrymandered than they used to be:

"In Australia, one vote one value is a legislative principle of democracy whereby each electorate has the same population within a specified percentage of variance. In the case of the Commonwealth, the maximum variance for the House of Representatives is 10% above or below the mean"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_vote_one_value

Perhaps you mean 'first past the post' voting (as opposed to preferential voting), in which case it's probably achievable by legislation or referendum under the present system. Beattie changed the Queensland system from compulsory preferential to optional preferential voting without needing to amend the Constitution, as I recall, so you're effectively just asking for a policy change that can be achieved within the system.

The same goes for all of your wish-list: it's all policy that you'd like to see enacted, which is entirely possible under our current system if you can attract sufficient support from an existing Party, or form your own. None of it requires fundamental change in "the system", but it would require fairly radical change in the electorate, since I imagine that the main reason your ideas haven't been taken up already is that not enough people agree with them. First past the post voting and flat taxes aren't new ideas, rather they are antidemocratic and exploitative policies that have never found favour with most Australians. With respect to relative pay scales, there's nothing in 'the system' to prevent their alteration, except the unions, professional associations and influential lobby groups. Good luck with them :)

Or have I got you wrong?

Well I clearly, want an end to preferential voting,that my first preference dies there.
I can find no single point nothing, to put third choice candidates in Parliament.
Yep know you can not agree but the majority will.
I discard the list from Individual, have never been able to see his quaint thoughts about national service other than an old mans dream.
Politicians are behind business managers and it is true.
IF you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Sorry about that Christoper Pyne!, rather see his after parliamentary life as Ronald MacDonald,no make up needed.
If we get a more democratic Parliament, one house fixed election dates we can start to lead not follow.
We hear time and again about the Westminster system,on what basis is it better? forever?

morganzola,
I agree that in theory my wish list is changeable under the present system, in reality it isn't. Why else would we have so many dysfunctional policies & nothing is done to rectify them ? I ttotally agree with you that the present system states all the right & moral-technical aspects of a decent democratic society but we ain't are we ? We have multi billion dollar industries just dealing with legally bending or avoiding these rules. Billions that should be going out to practical infrastructure but instead most of that money goes to consultants & other hangers-on bureaucracy. We're spending more on trying to prosecute people than trying to prove them innocent even when it becomes clear they're innocent. We're tolerating this back to front system when we shouldn't. We see the occasional high ranking Public Official getting out of line & we're not permitted to remind them of their wrong-doing a couple of years later.
What we, the working masses must demand is value for our tax dollar. It is criminal how much of our tax dollar is spent on making our society weaker rather than stronger. I really think the tax payer should be allowed to stipulate where some of his tax is going to. You'd be surprised how many organisations would have their uselessness exposed by such a system.

individual/quote..""I really think the tax payer
should be allowed to stipulate where some of his tax is going to.""

yep that would be great
like belly could allocate his taxes
to go to the labratters party polifolio positions
and others can finance the potfolios of the few greenlabbratters....or libelratters taxes to their portfolio positions

i think we need the minesters to select their portfolio's
and then get elected to represent them..[not their ratters parties policy and obligations]..

we have currently..the lawers and faqceless elites deciding all of it
where a penny drops whon the wong penny turns from carbon tax to her new finance mine/sty..[though admittedly it serves the same money marketeering adgenda]

best she be allocated her minestry
from those wanting her..to admin their taxes
whithin a specific portfolio she was SPECIFICLY elected to service

in time scateboarders would have their minester for skateboarding
farmers have their own minster...miners/industry/immigration/cuss-toms...each having their own..mouth peace

maybe we could have the chinese paying their tax to china
being governed [ie SERVED]..by them..or by whoever offers the best deal..

my voters would be ASSURED..
not one penny will go to the carbon/ating pemy wong

or the mine-star for healthy subsidies
to legal pwerscribed..drug death merchants

[noting 1 in 100 hospitalisations or adverse REACTIONS to legal[perscribed]..drugs...

1 in 10..resulting in death

govt isnt working..for those
govt was formed to serve

its time the party loyalty/scam
two party patsie..*treason..was ended..

but no
know
it wont be allowed to happen
the one sure rule...is send em broke

I will leave Indy to you Morgonzola.
I just can not make ground with his thoughts and ideas.
As I go how ever OUG lets talk.
Your views about politics and betrayal, I think you know are not shared by many.
Constant insults about the party system get to me, mate do you see our current hung Parliament.
The results?
If we had 180 individual members how often would they be able to pass a bill.
Groups would form, self interested groups,not unlike the filth within my NSW ALP they drove our boat, onto the rocks,the biggest defeat for us, victory for conservatives, in my states history.
This type of action always ends that way, after the fall of such a group, another wins, after a time it becomes old and acts badly,the the cycle begins again.
Two party or 100, our current system needs trimming not splattering up against a wall.

Belly,
that's the strangest way I've ever had someone saying what I am saying.

However Individual I support the party system.
Not perfect but the best way we have.
My NSW ALP will not repeat that crime against its members/self for a century, if ever.
Within the party system at least some self control can be enforced.
I will not say we can not improve, shorter terms make for better government, in my view.
Less minority rule too is wanted.
Once TAX/ETS NBN and a few other achievements get passed, I would Love double dissolution to restore majority rule.
But get rid of the Senate? so much progress a wonderful win for mainstream Australians.

TAX/ETS NBN. So much Progress ?
Belly,
Not yet.

belly quote..""Your views about politics and betrayal,
I think you know are not shared by many.""

mate look at the hung parlement
people are thinking parties stink
and for once the majority is getting it right
[the libs KNOW lab is rotten to the core...just as the lab's KNOW the libs are rotten to the core...

JUST AS THEY BOTH,..*KNOW..
the greenies are self serving..!
willing to let humans die..so wild areas can grow a miniscule frog

""Constant insults about the party system get to me,""

belly..YOU KNOW..i love YOU
but i hate what your party is doing
just as i hate many acts...while still loving the people thoughtlessly..doing/or supporting them being done

""If we had 180 individual members
how often would they be able to pass a bill.""

via the party line
they all fall into line
and vote for the party line/adgenda

LETS NOT FORGET ....carbon tax..WAS HOWARDS PLAN
he HIRED garnotte..to garrot debait..[an economist]
ie not a scientist]..

you also should know..THATCHER thunk of the tax idea first
only then the excuse was to be cooling..[but then the ozone hole made warming...lol]

""Groups would form,
self interested groups,""

yes and who else but economiasts..and grenies
ned the new income stream....subsidising their alternative energies

[but doubling the cost of the egsisting infastructure..
ALLREADY BUILT

[thus were..not needing what they got]..
except by clever marketing
by..lobby to the party machine men

""Two party or 100,
our current system needs trimming...""

you are right
but it needs so much more

continues..

""not splattering up against a wall.""

mate..to make a new cake
we need to break a few egg-heads
thinking their two party smarties..[party patsies]

that have gotten too big for their hard/hatters..
paying union fees to place adverts in the media..
in support of one party over the other

[no wonder the libs unionists
are leaving the union...cause their fees
are supporting the wrong party..if only in their eyes]

we needed unions
when jonny howhard ran his grand scams
but the unions..have missed his biggest scam..the new juliar car-bon/tax

mate majorities are a furphy
only made by making one side shut up
and i dont want you to do that..but mate cant you see?

till every one
has a secret ballot..IN PARLEMENT
the union principle..is revealed to have feet of clay...

[if its GOOD enough for unions..
why isnt it good enough for govt..!

secrets ballots...in govt mate

where is it?
till people can mAKE THEIR CASE
by supplying costs/detail..etc
A THING JULIAR ISNT DOING..[mate its just a scam]

reveal these 1000 ONLY...[who will pay this new tax]
if only 1000 are paying..HOW COME the rest are getting extra?

mate its nutts
WE ALL GOING TO PAY
then it goes to the FREE style marketteers
who manage to double the prices of anything..they can sell for extra..

if qwe need it
THINK BELLY..then we need it
REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH IT WILL COST

ya think e-CON_o/mists..and capitalists
dont love the thought of
all that lovely new commision/..bonus income?

MATE THEY CANT WAIT
thats worth 1000's of $$$$...a plate mate
get the tax in..then shut the gate

Baking a cake or discussing a subject both call for the ingredients to be put on the table some times turned over and mixed.
Here we lurch from baking a cake, replacing flower with cement, then being surprised it tastes bad.
Too finding new ways to say every one else is wrong except me.
HERE INDY take note
Labor will see the NBN in place,conservatives will not remove it.
TAX /ETS the same
Stop boat people conservatives not change it.
AND
after Labor is beaten.
Conservatives will be one term then trampled and condemned as our worst ever lier's.

As a famous writer once wrote:

Take one dream. Dream it in detail. Putit into your own hands. See its
final outcome clearly in your mind. Then mix it with a little effort and add a generous portion of self-discipline. Flavour it with a wholesome pinch of ambition. Stir briskly with confidence until the mixture becomes clear, the doubt separated from the resolution. Then bake at an even temperature in a moderate mind until the dream rises and is firm to the touch. Decorate with individuality. Cut into generous portions and serve with justifiable pride.

Approached in this manner, life is a piece of cake.

We need to dream; souring imagination is the glue that keeps our soul from shattering under the impact of an unimaginative world. But dreaming can be a tricky business and, if we're not careful, can disappear altogether from our lives - which would be such a pity.

Both true and good Lexi my regards.
I am not finding the words I want here.
We, me too, got away from the subject in to another country.
OUG no offense my mate, I disagree.
I think with all my being we only ever get part of what we think we need.
That any party, any, that is not trying to please the middle ground is the wrong one to be in power.
I proudly CHERISH my ALP victory's achieved or to come,the BER, do not fall for the lie, it gave new library's and school rooms Howard only gave flag polls.
Reconciliation, find Kevin Rudd's speech, sit and hear it ALL again, then hear the feeble awful near Racist Brendan Nelson reply, cringe as I did.
See [our failures in carbon tax, the greens betrayal in not passing it], but know we are going to achieve it,I AM FOREVER PROUD WE ARE
NBN look at the black lie that it is unwanted, remember in ten years to look back, see the lie the fear the ability to call such a brilliant achievement a problem.
I can go on, but my next point is so horrible, so frightening OUG you will not believe it.
A Tony Abbott lead government now or soon would be the most hated in our history.
He has no real intention to do what he says he will.
He knows he lies ,wants power, is not the man we see .
He will give to the rich out of your pocket and bring back work choices.
Morgonzola,a good bloke,avoids the thread,he dislikes my view the greens poison the waters of Australian Politics.
That the radical nature hunger of Brown to gain more influence is a danger , but my understanding is while no party gets it right always Labor fits me best.

Labor will see the NBN in place,conservatives will not remove it.
Belly,
that's reminiscent of the GST arguments. Labor told us how bad it was but they now gladly accept the extra monies coming in. Abbott never said he was against NBN,.He is against the cost of it. Labor was aginst the GST with a passion.

"Labor will see the NBN in place,conservatives will not remove it."

But as usual conservatives will cut back on other things to pay of the debt that Labor leaves us for their version of the NBN.

The whole NBN thing in conjunction with the carbon tax etc would make more sense if their were serious moves to reduce commuting for every government employee in a non-public facing role. That's an area where the government could make a massive dent in carbon footprints. How many miles are travelled each year by government (and government owned corporation) employees to do a job that could be done just as well (or sometimes better) from a home office or a regional hub? How many flights are taken to attend meetings which could be easily done with teleconferencing?

I've seen very little sign that any government in Australia is taking either seriously. My impression is that they are slower on that front than many private companies, to impressed by bum's on seats in the office (and on planes).

R0bert

Conservatives will be one term then trampled and condemned as our worst ever lier's.
Belly,
That's impossible judging by past scenario. Labor mismanagement is already so bad that it will require at least three Coalition terms to put the money back again.

Belly,
Do have inside knowledge of this ?
Got this in the mail just now. Is this for real ? Anyone know better ?
Below is the reason why I insisted that the thousands of dollars our club raised in support of the Queensland flood victims went to the Salvation Army and not our callous, calculating, money hungry and bankrupt state Government. The ‘Sallies’ directed the money to where it was needed most – the people in need!

We all must ask: What’s happening to our beautiful country?

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!

In Queensland, 200,000 persons were displaced because of the floods and cyclones in February 2011 as well as since then, because some areas in the Far North are still flooding.

Two hundred and forty nine million dollars ($249,000,000) were raised in the second largest public appeal since the Victorian bushfires of two summers ago. More than $300,000,000 was raised Australia-wide for those fire victims. In BOTH cases money still has NOT been distributed -- or it has been allocated to public areas which it is assumed were NEVER intended to receive money that was raised for the benefit of individual Australians and Australian families displaced by either fire or flood.

On Christmas Island, illegal immigrants -- boat people -- call them what you will, SET FIRE TO THE ACCOMMODATION THEY were given by the Australian government and now they will be housed in first class hotels and motels ON THE MAINLAND while tax-paying Australians are still displaced in their thousands! Read what I received in my inbox, below.

If your hair is now BLACK, it will turn WHITE by the time you finish. If you have a full head of hair, be prepared to wake up BALD, tomorrow, when you fully grasp the situation.
tbc.

DID YOU KNOW?

Three hundred boat people have been housed at the RAAF Sherger Air Base in Weipa.
All are being accepted into Australia.

All are men.

All receive the pension same as our pensioners –

All get the same amount again for hardship payment – this equals twice what our pensioners get!

All receive an extra $50 a day for spending money.

Security staff are employed to watch them.

Chefs are employed to feed them (one quarter of a tonne of chicken a day alone is cooked).

They won't pick up their own rubbish.
There was a massive dispute because they didn't like the radio station.
Another dispute because batteries were flat for the Nintendo games.
Tents set up for mosque prayers had to be air conditioned.
The Bores/Wells set up to run RAAF Sherger adequately, are now dry because taps are left running all day long.
Sewerage systems now blocked with condoms (?) supplied to them ....
(and all of them are men remember).

Dept of Immigration & Citizenship (DIAC) wants the Dept of Defence to pay all of the bills, so that the Government can hide the costs of allowing three hundred refugees into the country, from tax paying Australians.

Australian taxpayers need to know…

Now.. the PM wants to introduce another tax to pay for the floods, because the Government does not have enough money to look after its own taxpayers.

What is wrong with this government?

Every day you are in power is another day of debt and destruction for us Australians -- the TAX PAYERS!

Indy are you an investor?
I think I could sell you shares in just about anything.
LIES? mate you eat them for breakfast.
Just this.yes the temporary leader of Queensland is holding up the cash given by us me too.
She is a fool.
INSIDE INFORMATION?
Indy who do you think I am,my party is not telling me anything, I am an X I the only single person who knew anything about politics no longer go to conference, those who go get drunk, not attend a session, or leave after Saturday night love in,without voting go.
This morning,see time of post in the Holland thread, every day, I read a newspaper from every state.
I read every link that interests me,UK and USA papers and links.
Canada and NZ and the links.
Every day I search for knowledge understanding.
always
only lately started posting links, bet shadow minister is happy he taunted me to do that?
Give you this for free Friend, get out more,read even the stuff you hate understanding is a benefit always.

Further to individual’s DID YOU KNOW:

“Detainees in Australia, including those in WA, are entitled to claim battery-operated grooming gadgets, cigarettes, phone cards, snacks and confectionery by using reward points earned while playing soccer, volleyball and table tennis, and attending English and art lessons.”

"Insiders at Curtin Immigration Detention Centre, 40km southeast of Derby, said a recent shipment of cigarettes intended for detainees was worth about $10,000. A spokesman for Immigration and Citizenship Minister Chris Bowen refused to say how much the Federal Government spent on detainees' cigarettes, but did not rule out that the Curtin shipment cost as much as $10,000."

http://tinyurl.com/3m7gx6r

(and some have the hide to call detention centres... “hellholes”!)

Just in case the previous link doesn't work:

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/asylum-seekers-luxury-rewards/story-e6frg13u-1226043768220

Belly,
I expected your reaction, thanks for confirming my suspicion of you in the south being totally in the dark about these issues. I have personally spoken with people who live & work in that area & I was told that some of the security staff get paid a bonus or some kind of shut-up money as not to tell anyone what's really going on.
Again, I have not been there myself but I people who say they have & I see no reason why I should not believe the bulk of the information. I wished it weren't true & hope that there is some exaggeration for our Nation's sake. On the other hand I find it rather disturbing that despite so much rumour no investigation has been instigated by any authority or political party.
My concern is that due to the policies of this Government we 're going down the same road as Fiji. That would make it the second trip for the indigenous.

Individual I did try mate.
I just can not continue to try talking to you.
Am not angry with you just disappointed.
Not heated, I can never put my finger on why I continue to try to get on with you.
It has me stumped, but has always been my nature to look for good in every one.
You in every post I ever saw hurl charges so BIZARRE at my party us southerners any one.
Constantly inform me we are on the brink of disaster, must reintroduce conscription, a host of unthought out ideas.
Morgonzola, before he a green, became a refugee from my pointed views about them tried, he truly did,to get you to put your ideas on the table.
I did too.
You just do not have any old mate!
Your last quote, comparing this government with Fiji?
Do you want to be judged on that comment?
Once witch doctors studyed the entrails of a killed goat, to see the future.
I think we have moved on , but maybe you have not.
I lay the thread to rest, it has become compost ,at your hands, but maybe even now it tells me some thing.
My regards mate read a few books, better than burning them.

Belly,
couldn't you just give it a go & offer some ideas on how to get out of the mess we're in ?
I did not compare the Aust Govt to Fiji. I said if we keep going like we're presently going then we'll go the way of Fiji.
I'm not hurling bizarre charges at your party, I'm merely pointing out your party's bizarre policies.