The RSPCA does a fine job dealing with cruelty to animals that occurs every day, in our cities. Sometimes they get involved too, when individual farmers get it wrong. That is all well and good. But now it seems, they are moving well out of their depth, getting actively involved in a campaign against Julia Gillard, trying to force her hand over the live trade issue. The press reports that a publicity campaign in this regard, is about to start, in conjuction with Getup and Animals Australia.

The people at the RSPCA seem oblivious, as to how complex this debate really is. It is not their area of expertise. The live trade is critical for farmers for instance, when dealing with drought. We can't predict climate for more then a few days ahead, so when drought hits, farmers need to destock fairly quickly, before land blows and stock go downhill. When alot of them do that, there is no way that our meatworks can cope. Handfeeding a flock of 4000 sheep costs around 17'000$ a week, which can soon send a farmer broke. We've
had to dig holes and shoot sheep before. We need the live trade,
for they can move large volumes of livestock very quickly when required.

The RSPCA need to stick to what they do well, not get involved in industries which they simply don't understand.

If they want to, they are free to become proactive and help assist farmers in improving animal welfare in the third world. The ostrich approach is doomed to failure

Yabby, you are flogging a dead horse with this topic I think (pun intended).
After watching the Four Corners episode, many people in Australia will surely become vegetarians, or life-time militant members of the RSPCA at the very least :)

The RSPCA is merely responding to the massive outpouring of disgust from animal lovers all over Australia. They have no choice other than to take a strong stance on this subject, or they would be lynched I am thinking.

I imagine the RSPCA staff would have a good understanding of farming practices in this country surely? It wouldn't be hard for people in this organisation to have learned or been taught the why's and wherefores of animal farming.
It isn't rocket science.

I am sure farmers are smart enough to work out these problems and come up with a more humane solution for exporting meat.

Sorry Suzi but yabby is quite right.
Pure emotionalism is blinding us here.
And while most of us did not like the film, RSPCA is in the hands of unrealistic people.
AN industry is now being held to ransom.
Based on a successful demonstration from a radical animal rights group, was it a show of staged, or everyday events.
We have stopped,for how long a trade we need, improvements will come, with good will we will recommence our trade.
But here, just maybe, a true very real conspiracy exists.
We can be and are being manipulated by some who knowingly deceive.
Lyne White is such a person.
I and increasing numbers trust no animal rights group the RSPCA is condemning jumps racehorses to be killed for dog meat rather than live a life they like.
Every story has more than one side.
Some one just must find out who was paid to let those folk film and was the thing produced.
Why did Lyne White not rush in and stop the cruelty.

Belly,

It is interesting that you put up a thread recently decrying the treatment of girls and women in other countries. These human beings are victims of cultural practices that you found immoral and objectionable.

I wonder, therefore, if you would have the same objections to film-makers bringing their plight to public notice by secretly filming without intervention. In this case, you are calling it a conspiracy.

Gandhi once said something about the fact that you can judge a country's moral progress by the way it treats its animals.

Suze, every day we hear reports of some of you suburbanites abusing
pets. So do we push for a ban on all pet ownership, or do we push
to continue to stamp out animal cruelty?

I am all for banning animal cruelty, but not for banning live exports.
So I think that solutions will be found, where animals are tracked
right down the line and are slaughtered in suitable facilities,
using appropropriate equipment. Its not rocket science.

Farming is easy, as is medicine. The devil as always, lies in the
details and doing either of them well, is more difficult.

Drought strategy logistics is something that even many farmers have
not considered. They just hope that there is a market for their
stock, when they want to sell them. When they are all forced to
do so, like when the writing is on the wall that a drought has
started, that is when disaster happens. You land up with bare
paddocks, dying animals, topsoil blowing away and all the rest.
It is very bad farming and very cruel to animals.

Good farmers avoid all this with good planning. In WA, the
live trade is essential as part of that good planning. Last
year WA was fortunate. We had a drought, but got through it
pretty well, because meatworks were functioning at capacity,
the live trade played their role and another million sheep
were trucked a few thousand Km to the East, as they had abundant
feed for once. That is a rare occasion, drought can be common
in the East, too.

So farmers had 3 outlets for their livestock. Take away two
of those three outlets and you will have disaster on your hands.

Nope, the RCPCA might mean well, but they do not have the foggiest
of any of this. So banning the live trade might well create
more cruelty then those with good intentions, could ever imagine.

I see federal Labor has yet again bowed to the 24hr news cycle, or maybe the noisy little Wilke.

Instead of developing rational policy, they simply shaft the farmers.

Oakeshott and Windsor, this is the shower that you felt better represented the interests of the rural communities.

...Why yes, “I am very fond of tea” said Alice to the Mad Hatter disguised as Julia.

The live trade export is a shame on the AUSTRALIAN public. What are we,barbarians, this sort of cruelty was accetable 600 years ago, in fact peole were treated exceptionally badly then but haven't we become civilised. A comment made on TV this morning by Barnany 'that Indonesains would not stop the crtuelty if we stop exporting livestock' is irrelevant. Those are two separate issues. If the Indonesians act this way then education is the only way forward, but for us to provide the 'fodder' for their cruelty is unaccetable. money taking priority over cruelty I DONT THINK SO. Establish an abatoir in Northern Australia. That would give a market for the cattlemen and work for locals. LIVE EXPORTS MUST STOP

No way around it we must take control.
We see SM talk about the 24 hour news cycle yet you and your mob farm it, saying things you do not believe putting confrontation in front of good policy's good government.
Yabby we from different sides of politics know this is wrong.
But while it is my team now, soon pushed and prodded by left of center people, it will be conservatives.
And for three terms, in office.
We do not need this new Australia party, we need the party's that represent 88% of us to do it.
Yes it must be fixed but now just watch, soon film footage of live sheep exports will appear.
Egypt, watch out a camera crew is coming to a place near you.
Radical committed radical vegans have found weapon.
Ludwig did what he had to, but unless he gets it fixed soon we will see true great pain even hunger for marginal farmers in this country while sheep and cattle travel even further by boats and die no differently than they did before this event.
Loony loony Lefty's no vision no understanding.

...Well…Living in Australia over the past eighteen months, I now know in what frame of mind was Lewis Carroll when he wrote “Alice in Wonderland”… How much madder will it get Julia...?

Do you all honestly think it was just a Government and RSPCA decision to ban live animal exports? They were under immense pressure.

The outcry is huge even outside these organisations.
No one can say that a Liberal government wouldn't also have folded under the massive outcry.

I do feel sorry for the Australian farmers, but they should reserve their anger for the disgusting Indonesian abattoirs.

This is what happens when an organisation picks up on one aspect of an issue and ignores the others. I haven't seen the documentary, so I don't know its scope. I have, on several occasions, had the (dis)pleasure of smelling the ships as they sit in the port, gradually being loaded up with cattle. It isn't pleasant, and I'd imagine the conditions on board aren't so great. In that regard, and where some destinations are concerned, I'd say the RSPCA are well within their field of expertise.

Where they are overreaching is in their one-eyed attack on a whole economic process. It would be grand to say "let's stop live trade" and not have to think about the consequences. Sadly, for all concerned, there ARE consequences. As Yabby and Belly point out, live trade is a crucial part of our livestock industry. Maybe it can be cleaned up, but banning it outright would be disastrous. The RSPCA should be looking at ways of improving animal welfare within existing systems rather than throwing those systems in the "too hard" basket and pushing for them to be outlawed altogether.

Belly, I agree with you, Joe Ludwig is under immense pressure, now
that the hysterical housewives have joined in. All credit to Animals
Australia for stage managing an effective show, as part of their
campaign. To me this whole debate has nothing to do with liberal
or labour, but with finding effective win win solutions where reason
prevails. Eventually that will happen.

A campaign and publicity stunt it certainly is. AA have critised
Ludwig for taking a week to stop shipments to Indonesia, yet they
have sat on that footage for months, as they prepared their campaign.

Elders apparently operate a meatworks in Indonesia, where they
use the latest Western methods, with a capacity of over 20'000 head
per year. They wern't shown in the documentary, it was designed to
shock, not to inform.

IMHO Livecorp are still showing bad judgement and they need some
new talent there. Roll out 50 or 60 works with stun guns immediately
and track cattle as they now do in Egypt, then your problem is solved.
In fact Livecorp should have learnt from the Egypt story, so they do
carry their share of the blame.

Anyhow, the solution is clear. Introduce better animal welfare practises in the third world where we ship, so that there is a win
win outcome for all, including the animals.

The organization that did the initial filming of the cattle in Indonesia is called Animals Australia. Their interests go far beyond the complete banning of all live exports.

Below is a page from their website showing the issues as they see them.
For example, they want all companion animals desexed, except for registered breeders. Caged birds to be banned, which means no canaries or budgies. They seek protection for feral animals such as foxes, feral cats, camels, donkeys, rabbits, Indian minor birds, cane toads, rats and mice. They say we brought them here so we should accept responsibility for their welfare. Of course they want rodeos and horse racing banned. Seems they promote the use of non dairy products and vegetarian lifestyle.

Might pay to check them out before supporting. They may be far more than what they seem.

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/issues/

Banjo, you are quite correct, some of the AA stuff is off the
planet stuff, away with the fairies. For instance they think that
we should not rip rabbit warrens, whilst there are any rabbits
present :)

I think thats why they are riding on the RSPCA coattails on this
issue, ie to gain public credibility. In the past on OLO,
some AA fans did nothing but criticise the RSPCA.

That is really why I started this thread. AA have been on about the
live trade for years, Lyn White keeps busy with her little camera,
has done so for years. But the RSPCA usually never got involved
in their campaigns. There is a difference between animal welfare
and animal liberation. It seems to me that slowly parts of the
RSPCA are being invaded my vegans and in my eyes the RSPCA is losing
credibility because of it.I used to donate to them, not anymore.

Yabby <"Joe Ludwig is under immense pressure, now
that the hysterical housewives have joined in. "

Where is your proof it is 'hysterical housewives' who are pushing this barrow Yabby?

Aren't most of the politicians in the Labour Party that banned live animal exports today male? Are you suggesting they are easily influenced by housewives, hysterical or otherwise?
They never were before, so why should they start now?

I really don't see how these animal welfare groups could have videoed this sort of atrocity without having the truth in front of the cameras?

It is truly disgusting, and I am glad they banned all live animal exports for now - as long as they keep it banned until we have absolute ongoing proof of more humane treatment for the animals at the end of their voyage.

Societies that allow animals to be treated cruelly are truly backward.

Yes it was not nice viewing, will the same people be up at the ranches where all these cattle will end up. You know as well as I do that these farms are not going to support all the cows. Will we see pictures of these animals slowly starving which will be caused by these so called animal rights activists.

Does anyone remember Kerry O'Brien? And I don't mean ABC Kerry but the former Shadow Minister for Primary Industries, Fisheries and Forestry from 10.12.06 to 3.12.07.

As Shadow spokesperson about Agriculture, O'Brien made a comment to a journalist about the ALP considering banning live exports prior to Election 07, only to be gagged by his own party.

The cruelty issues around live exports has been known for some time. It is not a secret that much more needed to be done despite all the bull-derdash (pun intended) about better health care onboard ship, more vets etc during the Howard era.

One day we will look back and wonder why it was ever allowed in the first place.

I want to introduce a different slant, well give more information about why I feel threatened by this issue.
Right now our whole country is driven by such as this issue.
Divided between a government, once full of promise and record highs in the polls.
And an opposition that is well named,, it opposes.
We are the victims.
Media, printed and electric wants the first headline, not out comes not better government,not even AUSTRALIA'S INTERESTS.
We are becoming a combative country's,ruled,by either side badly.
We never ask why we let the owner of newspapers, rich beyond belief have so much control.
Media Barron's who never lived in a fibro cottage or tent,say control what we hear and see.
I believe 80% of Australians are about the same, we are no matter who we vote for concerned about the same things think the same.
A media often staffed,fronted,by the bloke or lady down the road, who has no under standing no concerns about a hundred jobs lost.
Who cares nothing, that Brazilian cattle may be on their way to die just as badly are the result of minority hysteria.
continued

Propaganda look at the word, my age group thinks first of that twisted little servant of Adolph Hitler.
WRONG it has existed forever, every paid advertisement is such, every word any politician says is too.
We, more of us than is good for us, jump on any band wagon often getting on the wrong bus heading in wrong directions, thinking we are among Friends.
Minority's are driving us,herd animals join in jeering not quite sure what the crowd is on about but wanting to be part of it.
No animal rights group is to be trusted,Lyn White for sure.
With balance,without hysteria we could in one month.
See our cattle killed as they are in Australia, under the eyes of strict Australian inspectors.
No need to offend a country no need to stop a trade.
BUT every chance exists this witches brew has killed our trade our training and the killing will not change.
It is my view we must get that 80% together to isolate the minority from driving us .
And that vegans be unmasked for the acts of terrorism they produce against meat eaters.
Further an investigation into who if any one was paid to treat these cattle so badly.

>> And that vegans be unmasked for the acts of terrorism they produce against meat eaters. <<

Belly I think you're doing an "Arjay".

Question for anyone capable of reason:

Who closed all the abattoirs? Why? (probably to save paying living wage to Aussie abattoir workers) and why not re-establish such thus creating jobs and reducing live trade to countries where slaughter methods are humane and the conditions of shipment also humane?

Not that long ago sending children down coal mines was acceptable, we can change our ways, it is not "hysterical" to suggest change, nor is it unreasonable.

Ammonite your question comes from some one who fails to reason.
On what basis do you judge we can market this meat as that processed meat.
At what price,to how many Indonesians, who could no longer buy it because of costs.
Terrorism is the right word, around the world, no less than here in Australia this uninformed comment, we neglect Australian workers,is at BEST UNINFORMED but in truth it misuse the truth.
Sheds get smashed it to stock stolen terrorists do act that way.
I with GREAT PRIDE never stopped being a trade unionist, worked in this trade , and as a trade union official,with pride and belief every job than can be kept here should be.
Some jobs can not be , these never existed never will.
These folk farmers, know they now risk the whole trade and must sell their stock on our market for less.
We KNOW we can fix this is a month, we can and will, but now for it, yes house wives do get involved in things they know nothing about.
The sickness that is Australian Politics today, pushed the ALP into a corner.
How hard is it for Abbott meat and livestock Australia, Gillard and those in Charge in Indonesia to meet next week, to sit and fix this.
For Australia's sake we must marginalize those minority's who want to rule us all.
White today, Abbott like, is saying producers are not at fault, but ignoring she has made them the victims, sheep next take control Australia.

Suze, the hysterical housewife brigade are everywhere, urban
housewives who simply don't understand all the facts involved in
this industry. They have certainly flooded a number of online farming
forums, repeating the same mantras again and again.

A few points:

Northeren cattle are brahman types, unlike our southern breeds, so
their meat is considered 2nd rate. At 350kg they are not ready for
slaughter, they need to go into a feedlot for a few months to take
them to slaughter weight, above 450kg. The North does not have the
hay or grain to feedlot them, it would have to be trucked from the
south, way too expensive. Indonesia uses agricultural waste products
already available, so can do so efficiently.

Northern meatworks closed, because they can only operate for 6 months
of the year, due to the wet. A works needs to run 12 months to make
it viable. Australian labour wants year round work, they could not
find the labour either. Meatworks in the North would compete with
mining jobs, where 12 months work is available for 6 figures.
Meatworks can compete on neither score.

So you have a situation of unviable meatworks without labour, with
cattle not ready for slaughter, it makes no rational sense at all.

Trucking cattle south makes no sense either. The animal is worth maybe
500$, freight south is around half of that.

What you now have is a buildup of numbers on stations unable to sell.
That means their herd will be put under pressure due to overstocking.
The herd will suffer as a result, so will the environment. But those
deaths from hunger, probably won't make it to the tv screen, as
Lyn White won't be filming that.

YES YES YES we need to have a greater say in how our country is run.
All politicians only look at how their image is, appealing to the close community around them and this is mainly the so called "do-gooders" and the "I know righters" we need to change the political system so that the voice of all is heard and not just a few.
We need to have a say in all issues like this one which affects not only cattle and sheep but whole town lively hoods.
True democracy is dead, even old katters new party is still OLD OLD OLD we need people that will bring the politicl system upto a modern system that gets away from THEM TELLING US to a system that allows us ALL TO VOTE on as much as we want. Its easy to do with the technology of today but the old system is still hanging on for grim death!

Belly

I asked a very pertinent question as to the closure of abattoirs - which you are clearly incapable of answering. And you question MY reasoning abilities - you are the one making wild accusations about vegans.

I offered solutions:

Re-open local abattoirs.

Ensure humane conditions for live export animals.

Both suggestions would reduce unnecessary suffering and increase employment opportunities.

Too logical for you.

Ammonite, you did not offer solutions, all you did was show
a lack of understanding of the industry. If you had read my
last post, it anwered your question.

Ammonite please understand I do not dislike you, am a female lover not hater.
I understand some females are much brighter than me.
But gee on this subject you are lost so out of touch and uniformed read yabbys answer
But look again at mine, I have traveled this country supporting other unions and Australian jobs.
Do you know my union the AWU was invited by a National party Lord Mayor,to help fight chicken and Orange juice imports.
Are you aware cattle killing places if profitable, if the product could be sold would be in every town
You throw from the shadows a blind,an uniformed unachievable fantasy and hurl mud at me for shaking my head and walking away.
PS my nightmare is coming my ALP crippled by foolish Gillard has yet again slapped those we need to vote for us , long term in opposition coming.

Belly, the problem now is, the Joe Ludwig, in his efforts to placate
the hysterical housewives and the animal liberation lobby,might
actually be creating far more animal welfare issues then he is aware
of. There are cattle stranded everywhere. In quarantine stations,
in holding yards, in transit, you name it, there are cattle in limbo.
If the cattle on some of those stations don't move, serious overstocking issues will arise for the rest of the herd. They can't
just truck food in, in the North, it is thousands of km from anywhere.

Ludwig needs to sit down with his Indonesian counterpart and come up
with a solution quicksmart. It is not rocketscience to install a few
decentcattle holding crushes and some stun guns. If the Govt stretches this out for 6 months, there will be a disaster in the North.

The Minister for Agriculture's office also bears some responsiblity
for all this, for ultimately MLA are under his durestriction and control. Farmers can pay their levies, many millions a year, but
they can't audit MLA as the Minister can. It seems that MLA were
publishing recipees for Indonesian housewives, but were not getting
the animal welfare side of things in order. Only he can establish that, it is beyond farmers to do so. MLA really acts like a pseudo
Govt dept, with farmers wearing the cost.

Where we have a problem is that the last two Ministers of Ag have lacked agricultural experience, so it takes them a while just to get up to speed on things. Perhaps because of this, they lack the assurance to get in there and ask the hard questions that need to be asked, assuming that these people actually know what they are doing.
That does not seem to be the case.

Yabby all that you said there is true.
You and I understand just what the impacts are, few city dwellers ever can.
Ludwig is good value he was pushed and prodded had no other choice.
Gillard however, a different thing.
Her public statement, based on an ABC tragic blow up of one sentence, manufactured news.
Actually put HER FINGER prints all over a lot of failures in Labors recent policy's.
She in effect took to the victims, producers and looks to me just as any winging house wife does and uninformed to boot.
She just did not know or care, that meat exports Australia meant they had been trying, spending millions to fix this mess.
Now to his credit Katter is upset, while he too miss read the ABCs attempt to channel Murdock media,he knew as we do, meat and livestock should have acted long ago.
Labor is almost certain to be removed from office, Friends and supporters even here will be upset with me saying that.
But too much concern about voters leaving for the greens,and not enought trying to win new ones.
Along with constant white anting from the left and groups like animal welfare are going to get us.
Yabby no self promotion, given the job of fixing this, you and I would wrap it up in a week, Have no doubt it can be done next post shows how.

First we would need to go and see Ludwig and as many government members as we could.
Get them to let all cattle currently sold and in transport in Australia sent, to be killed in those places we approve of.
If he.they did not agree go to all media and the opposition, both party's respond more to media beat ups than voters.
Go to Indonesia, be respectful and say sorry.
Ask for their help, offer to pay, as we are doing in any case , for gear and training.
Get permission for our inspectors to work with them and watch every kill.
Let the trade continue at a reduced tested pace until only licensed killing places can be used.
At the same time find every worker involved in earlier filming.
Find out if cash was paid,by the ABC or White.
Last? unhappy task but needs to be done.
Get that same ABC crew to film any Australian abattoirs at work killing.
So many have never seen a beast die that the act of killing alone gets them up set.
This can be fixed in fact the whole issue is just a bigger one than GOOD UNIONS AND MANAGEMENT FIX together every day.

Belly, you are quite correct. A couple of us, with some common sense,
could sort this one out in a short time. But common sense is not something which they teach at the university.

I don't really have that much of a problem with Gillard, as I think
given the opportunity, she shows better judgement then Abbott. But
her hands are tied, she's leading a very weak govt as she has to
pander to the greens and independants, to keep the wheels on the cart.
In this case she would be doing what politicians do, which is focus
on the numbers. She'd be aware that Animals Australia, along with the
RSPCA and Getup, are about to launch a tv campaign against her on the live issue, so this has effectively pulled the rug from under their
feet in the short term.

*So many have never seen a beast die that the act of killing alone gets them up set.*

You are quite correct there! My ex wife was a city girl. She nagged
me constantly, that she wanted to watch me dress a lamb. Eventually
I gave in. She never ate farm lamb again, insisting it had to come
from the supermarket in little packets :)

Yabby, one doesn't have to know 'everything' about a subject to have an opinion on it...housewife or not.

Obviously most people felt strongly enough about stopping the live export of meat to Indonesia to ensure the Government banned the practice.

Naturally they will be working hard on finding a solution to the TEMPORARY ban on live cattle exports, because the Government is bound to be losing money on this ban as well.

There is no need to get your nickers in a knot, and come on with the 'I know more than you do' playground squabble, when we are only into the third day of the ban!

I am both weary and afraid of this subject.
Yabby,in truth an out back Camel has more understanding than Abbott.
I feel sorry for Ludwig, he my party,Australia is being pushed by this hung Parliament.
And by just a few within the party,who serve at best a quarter of the party and the country.
Overnight a great and good man,former senator John Faulkner,from my party's left but one of our best said this.
Reform or die.
I Agree, but he wants reform that includes those fleeing to the greens.
I wish with passion to isolate that group, existing and would be greens.
They, by radical non Representative statements /actions drive the ALP to failure.
Consideration in this horrible matter has only been given to how the government looks.
In effect moving on behalf of voters who are ours already.
And pushing whole sections away, forever.
I am a proud member of the shell, tattered and torn bits of skin,of the NSW country Labor party.
We opposed by a National Party,see its defectors, Katter Windsor and Oakshot, and winning.
We should be taking more country seats, yet we seem not to understand they are not all rich cooky's, they are the inheritors of the people who formed my union and my party.
Labor must stop putting the best mates in power, from the trade union movement comes our very best Hawk for one . but slothful fools too.
NSW was in the hands of some unions too badly thought out foolishness.
This event needed understanding ,it needs now ordinary farmers to say what they know.
I Want to say more continued.

I could write a critic of conservatives, they too are strangled by this hung Parliament, acting against the very sole of their party.
But my fear is my party, and my country, look at the very dirty hands of the ABC here, no not filming this, that is understandable.
But it drove a lie a poorly understood statement from meat and livestock, my ABC is driven by women and greens,and is doing great harm to anti conservative ranks.
Rudd, is too controlling, Gillard however is too lost,Rudd may just have fixed this,we need some one who has brains and guts, Gillard is not that person.
Blown like a chook feather in the wind my party could today fix this.
Get that film of cattle being processed, from our very best killing places, show it.
Tell of the training and purchases we are making.
Tell of the very real probability others will take that market, kill forever without changing anything.
Here I blacken myself, as is my right, I distrust Muslims in my country.
But see, open our eyes, true bigotry about the word Halal, know it is not much different than Jewish killing.
It is their right to continue to kill as they ALWAYS HAVE.
As it is ours to teach how to do it without pain.
My country , thanks to a hung Parliament Wilkie and the senator from south Australia, greens who want to impose only their views on us is in trouble.
Rather than putting an end to this cruelty we are in very real danger of being the reason it gos on forever.

Suze, let me explain it this way to you. If you and your husband got
paid once a year and one govt dept just announced that you might not
get paid this year, so potentially losing your house, because another
govt dept had stuffed up a bit, but through no fault of your own,
would you perhaps be a little anxious? That is exactly what has
just happened to some of the smaller pastoralists in the North.
I see it quite reasonable to express my empathy for them, for if
it was you, you'd most likely be screaming from the rooftops on OLO.

Belly is quite correct, this is coming from the extremes. Now they
are tryng to ban all live exports, without the foggiest notion of
how that will affect agriculture and our crucial ability to be
flexible, given increased climate variability. None of them have
ever had the responsibility have having feed on hand for thousands
of livestock, every single day.

So sadly this mob are in the process of causing more animal cruelty
issues then they ever solved.They are also too ignorant about the
subject to even be aware of it. All heart and no reason is downright dangerous at times. The law of unintended consequences will commonly
smack you in the mouth.

Gawd, what was I thinking?

Reopening abattoirs and improving standards of exporting live animals?

AND I was even willing to pay more for meat as a result. Clearly Belly and Yabby know best, although I'm not sure what.

You go guys! You are a credit to Australian innovation and vision.

:P

Agree, Ammonite.

Just because we've set up a system that relies on live exports, doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

In my city in the seventies there was a an abatoir that killed livestock according to Halal - and the processed meat was exported to the middle-east.

However, it's a very Australian mindset these days to export raw material with no thought to processing it locally...shame in this case we are dealing with "live" stock.

Belly, - I don't quite understand your rage directed toward the people who exposed these practices.

Yabby, the Meat and Livestock industry knew about the atrocities committed against the livestock sent to Indonesia by their members for years apparently.

Any rage by the farmers should be directed against their own representatives, rather than the Government and the vast numbers of people objecting to the animal cruelty involved.
They are all complicit in this debacle.

*the Meat and Livestock industry knew about the atrocities committed*

Suze, who knew? Farmers did not know, major producers like the
Holmes a Courts, who visited many of those facilities, did not
know, many others who visited did not know. Did some staff members
of MLA know and not tell farmers? The only person who can
keep an eye on MLA really, is the minister for agriculture himself.
They come under his responsibility.

*it's a very Australian mindset these days to export raw material with no thought to processing it locally*

Rubbish, Poirot. I remind you that most livestock are indeed
processed locally. The devil here lies in the detail. Every
business plan has to see the numbers stack up. Its pointless having
an industry where farmers or processors are unviable, or where
consumers simply don't want that particular product. The numbers
on Northen meatworks have been crunched again and again. AAco
actually right now are going to try building a works in Darwin,
as part of their whole chain marketing approach, they need more
investors, you are free to risk your life savings.

But the live trade as it exists, does so for incredibly good reasons
and it plays a vital role, especially during times of drought.
There is no good reason why it should not continue to do so.

80% of the people complaining about the live trade and local
manufacture etc, in fact drive imported cars. Hypocrites.

Yabby and myself, from different sides of the fence, know this country this trade.
No big supermarket just round the corner for these producers.
Some are ok, have money in the bank, for some the bank is the other tin shed they live in one.
Food can be, other than beef bags of sugar and floor tined every thing school is via radio.
Here in OLO we went to war over animal rights,yabby and I took part in that,it was messy.
In my view hurt us all, who Lady's, tell me is not upset AT ANY ANIMAL CRUELTY?
I am always, I spoke of animal rights terrorism and one of you nearly laughed , read the AA web page.
I question VEGAN Lyn Whites actions.
I know my ABC is in the hands of the GREENS, it has no wish for animal welfare, just seconds ago, a woman news reader read out this headline, not word perfect *ALP is given a flogging by one of its senior people*
Why? fact is very few ALP people did not support that good and great man.
What out come did you want from this?
I wanted, was well on the way, to getting, will get, in this 6 months an end to cruel way of killing.
As near the equal of any country.
But not an end to the trade.
Not and end to meat eating.
Not a victory for radicalism,not a reward for White who wants all the opposite to what I want.
And not a reward Lady's for a woman who would willingly kill any animal in our main street if it helped her VEGAN cause.
Did she pay some one to be brutal, are you sure she did not?

Why do we export live animals.

Lets see if all the housewives in australia can live as most indonesians do.....just turn off your refridgerators.

These places are not like us , WE ARE SPOILT, and we act like it.

Even better lets close coles and woolies and see if you can survive.

Look with both eyes outside of your soft easy lives.

Everyone whinges about politicians, isn't it time to change the system to one that really embraces true democracy?

Thanks and welcome, pure emotionalism gets in the way of reality here, it does so always.
So easy to sit here and say why not kill it here/create Australian jobs/ open new factory's and industry's.
Meat processing plants, and such need workers who do not want those jobs, transport and services, they need markets for the end product.
If these existed, if profits could be made,they would exist, my local one is owned by overseas interests and after more than one financial collapse is making profits.
The very guts of this is uninformed jumping instantly and blindly, on the back of answers that are wrong.
No way an abattoir can exist/sell its product/replace live trade.
I do, yet again, want the reality of cattle and sheep's pigs and goats yes all human or animal food being killed to be seen.
While Kangaroo population was dieing in the hundreds of thousands in the drought stricken out back AA and its fellow travelers PETA wanted to end the trade.
Country's are governed by those the majority place in power ,no government can best serve minority's and expect to govern.
Labor is far more than the servant of the very lost left and uninformed AA supporters, or it is nothing.
Answers exist lets look for outcomes not phantoms.

The sad part is that it seems to be impossible to expect any kind
of common sense from alot of these desk jockeys, wether they work
in politics, the public service or semi public service, such as
MLA.

If you are going to throw a ban into the works, at least give people
a few days notice. That way much pain could have been avoided
by those involved with real problems, with stranded cattle everywhere. For what? No common sense.

By what I saw of the MLA boxes installed in Indonesia, they surely
were not designed by anyone with practical experience in the field.
Of course animals are going to thrash around and bang their heads,
if you try to tip them on their sides without controlling their
heads. There are plenty of great cattle crushes available which can
do that with little effort. Who screwed up there? Again a lack
of common sense.

Sadly we cannot legislate for common sense. They hire some university
type for many of these jobs, but of course these are some of the
most impractical people around, in the real world.

Who will lose most out of all of this? The small pastoralist families
who relied on the system. Big companies will quickly be able to
introduce closed chain systems, much as they did in Egypt. It works
well and they will get up and running again. The smaller and most
financially stretched families will get the rough end of the
pineapple, yet once again.

Yabby <"80% of the people complaining about the live trade and local
manufacture etc, in fact drive imported cars. Hypocrites."

Really? Where's your proof?

I didn't know there was livestock being mistreated in the manufacture of cars overseas? If there was, I have no doubt the importing of these cars would be banned :)

Having a go at all people living in cities is hardly going to help the situation Yabby. I was listening to an ABC radio show on my radio here in RURAL W.A., where they were interviewing W.A. farmers, and they certainly said they knew about the fate of the cattle in Indonesia.

They defended themselves by saying they had sold the cattle on, and it was therefore none of their concern about what happened to the beasts after they left their possession!
Then they complained that the Meat and Livestock Industry sold them out by not doing something about the animal cruelty when knowledge of the situation surfaced YEARS ago. Hypocrites.

Obviously, you can't speak for all farmers Yabby.

*where they were interviewing W.A. farmers, and they certainly said they knew about the fate of the cattle in Indonesia.*

Well I listen to it to Suze, and I have never heard one farmer
say that. But try to dig yourself out of your uninformed hole,
whichever way you please :)

*Really? Where's your proof?*

Check the stats. 80% of cars sold are imported

Yabby <" I have never heard one farmer
say that. But try to dig yourself out of your uninformed hole,
whichever way you please :)"

No problems there Yabby, I am digging as you read the following...

Paul Holmes a Court is a major cattle producer in W.A., and I wouldn't mind betting that he and many other rural people like him, drive imported four wheel drive vehicles? :)

He appears to support the banning of live cattle exports:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/09/3239715.htm

Even good-old-boy Katter is upset that the cruelty to cattle in Indonesia was known about years ago:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/09/3239294.htm
"The decision to suspend trade has left tens of thousands of cattle in limbo across northern Australia, in feed lots or en route for port facilities.
Mr Katter told Lateline that "almost every single aspect" of Mr Finucan's comments filled him with anger.
"This person tonight admitted that they knew what was going on, that they'd sent people in to have look at this, they knew what was going on and they've known for years and years and years about it and they've done absolutely nothing about it," he said."

It seems to me that the current debacle around live exports to Indonesia might have been avoided had producers and their representative organisations taken notice of those animal welfare groups who've been working on the issue for many years. Instead, the response by producers has too often been one of arrogant dismissal along the lines we see here, where animal welfare advocates are stereotyped as "housewives" who should "stick to their knitting".

Putting aside the sneering chauvinism of such inappropriate responses to legitimate concerns, it seems to me that the industry has brought the current crisis on itself by refusing to acknowledge the unacceptable cruelty that the 4 Corners program brought to light. It has evidently been common knowledge within the industry, but growers have apparently preferred to prioritise short term profit over the humane treatment of livestock.

Since the industry - or some sections of it - has demonstrated that it is currently incapable of meeting minimum animal welfare standards in the live export trade to Indonesia, it has to be shown that humane slaughter is not an optional extra. Full marks to the government for acting decisively for a change.

Yabby here we are stumped, from within let me tell you government and semi government things have no chance of working EVER.
Good honest and informed workers at every level soon learn to pull their head in.
Put a shovel of sheep manure in to a barrel of water watch it raise to the top?
Rather crude thing to say? yes it is? but horrible in the fact it is true.
You will hear it said every day
See projects costed at a price cost three times as much because of the dead hand of such dysfunctional fools.
MLA is no different, yes your cradles would fix it in seconds, totally.
Chain pulleys to lift the dead cattle on hand not one person could complain.
OUTCOMES,not a hard word, but these folk are blind to it its meaning its results.
You and I could fix it,if they let us, today.
But it is not the wanted outcome.
AA and the worlds vegans do not want it.
Conservatives want to feed on this disturbing chance to flog Labor.
Ludwig, possibly under orders,wanted to jump on the popularity bus,hoping to cuddle those already his, while driving every one else away.
I think our OUTCOME could and should be, harshly treat MLA remove its dead meat now, if that means starting a new better thing ok.
Get rid of those failures right along the chain but not in a week or month today.
have the trade in place again it a week.
My view the OUTCOME is different and fixed already.
ALP forever will be known as the party that killed this trade harmed so dreadfully these folk.
And in time not far away be seen as a party willing to bend to the wishes of GREENS/ LEFT minority's at the expense of its own voters.

Suze, indeed farmers drive imported 4wds, the local industry has
never bothered to make them. But its not farmers making the call
that jobs are being lost. Farmers are saying a business has to be
viable, however it is structured. So the hyprocrites are those
city slickers trying to use that excuse to ban the live trade.

Yes, Holmes a Court agrees with a short term ban to fix the
problem. He also has his closed suppy chain ready to go, as have
other large corporates. So why did they give the industry no notice
and trap all those cattle on the wharves etc?

Finucan works for MLA. He admitted that there were issues, but we
don't know what issues. Thats why somebody needs to check out MLA,
something only the Minister for Ag can do, not farmers. Farmers
just pay levies, nearly 100m $ a year, which includes money for
animal welfare.

MLA is not the industry. It is a semi Govt authority. If they got
it badly wrong, then those people should be held to account. Only
Ludwig can do that. I just think that they need some practical
people brought in to their programme, as IMHO they stuffed up with
the initial design of their knock boxes in the first place. Rather
then fix the problem, they are papering it over with suggestions
of more training

Suzeonline

Yabby no more speaks for all farmers, let alone those in the export trade, than Belly does for all workers (not all union reps want to be members of the Labor party, but don't get much choice).

The following is from a person who neither is a housewife (sexist much) he may be able to knit I really don't know:

"Farm manager and experienced stockman Terry Coman worked globally to ship Australian dairy cattle to the Middle east and China over the past 3 years.

As a stockman he was responsible for the welfare of thousands of dairy cattle on long-haul voyages that lasted up to a month.

Many of the dairy cattle shared ships with Australian sheep and beef cattle.

"It is a good trade, if it is policed.

"There has got to be an improvement and sending over skilled workers from Australia to police it would be the way to go, and try and educate the Indonesian or the anyone else that takes delivery of these cattle realise that people in Australia are horrified."

He says there was widespread abuse in the sector by untrained workers in all the Middle Eastern destinations he visited.

"It is going on today , nothing has changed."

He says cruelty is rife.

"The way they kill them over there, it is not pretty.

"I went to an abattoir in Kuwait and they just do the same thing (as we saw on tv in an Indonesian abattoir), they tie them up, pull their legs down while they are roaring, just get into them, cut their heads off......

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/regions/content/201106/3238420.htm

Contd

".... Terry Coman says he wants to see livestock workers trained in all Australia's trading countries, meanwhile he has left the sector after writing reports on his concerns every voyage, and despite being well regarded as a good and caring stockman as his ships had lower than usual mortality rates.

" (I am) traumatised, demoralised (by) the stuff you see, and the stuff you do for the industry, and you think there is going to be an improvement on it, but there never is."

Mr Coman says he is still in the caring sector, now working in aged care in the NSW Bega valley."

Seems Mr Coman cares as much for people as he does animals.

Here's a novel idea; in addition to RE-OPENING the abattoirs that were closed to take advantage of cheap Indonesian labour, temporary working visas could be supplied to Indonesian workers to learn the more humane techniques of slaughter, right here by professional Australian workers. Killing animals is not pretty, but there are ways in which it can be done swiftly as possible.

I may not be able to knit, but I was a pretty good shot with a rifle and had no problems gutting and skinning rabbits for a tasty meal when on the road many years ago.

Wish I could knit though. Very practical skill to have.

*had producers and their representative organisations taken notice of those animal welfare groups who've been working on the issue for many years.*

Not so Morganzola, for most of the animal welfare group claims are
complete bulldust. For instance, they got into a hissy fit about
sheeps legs being tied in the ME, showing this as shocking cruelty.
Well perhaps they have never been on a farm in their lives. Sheeps
legs are tied when carted around Australian farms, there are even
special tie systems called sheep cuffs, to do it. Vegans generally
have a very warped sense of what is cruel.

Hysterical housewives from the animal welfare group movement, get
upset when a sheeps leg is sticking out of a truck. Sheep will do
that sometimes, we did it at school too, when out in the school bus.
They claim that sheep are packed in tightly. Well leave them loose
and they will fall all over the truck.

Most of the animal welfare group claims are baseless and due to a
lack of knowledge about livestock and their handling.

But slaughtering cattle without a gun is a different story. They
are large animals and many of the employees would fear them, so
do stupid things, especially if they have no suitable equipment.
Lyn White rightly pointed out the problem in Egypt and it was fixed.
They now have a modern abattoir and a closed supply chain in that
market. MLA should have learnt from that and done the same in
Indonesia. It was only a matter of time when Lyn would turn up
there

*Here's a novel idea; in addition to RE-OPENING the abattoirs that were closed to take advantage of cheap Indonesian labour, temporary working visas could be supplied to Indonesian workers to learn the more humane techniques of slaughter*

Ammonite, I'll go through it once again. At 300-350kg, the cattle
coming off the stations are not ready for slaughter, too tough and
too small. They need feedlotting. Customers don't want to eat
leather boots.

Indonesia already has that feed in the form of waste agricultural
products, Australia does not. So adding a couple of hundred kg
in a feedlot in Indonesia, makes perfect sense. When you operate
an export works in Australia, you have to comply with international
standards. So for instance, you need to have AQIS vets and inspectors
there at all times. That costs each works literally hundreds of
thousands of $ a year. Everything for a Northern works would have to
be trucked up there, making it expensive. The numbers simply don't
add up.

If you want animal welfare in the slaughterhouse, so provide suitable
equipment to start with. That has clearly not be done and despite
MLA claims, I don't think that their knock boxes are the correct
design. Give workers in Indonesia a proper crush and a stun gun
and you are 90% of the way there.

Hi Yabby, I'm not familiar with any controversies surrounding tying sheep legs, but weren't AA instrumental in enforcing humane treatment of livestock exported to Egypt a few years back? I would have thought those involved in the live export trade would have been put well and truly on notice - what was it, 5 or so years ago at least?

I see you missed my point about the counterproductivity of contemptuously dismissing concerns brought to light by animal welfare advocates. In what ways do you see that trivialising their concerns as being those of "hysterical housewives" helps to find a way forward for the industry?

Yabs

I do understand the whys and wherefores of feed-lotting - an often controversial issue in itself. The requirement of fattening cattle for the slaughter does not prevent the RE-INTRODUCTION of abattoirs, nor the professional skilling up of Indonesian workers, you should be aware that a stun gun is only a small part of effective and efficient slaughter (slicing the neck of a cow need only take a single action by a professional) - however, I think you are merely arguing in favour of 'business-as-usual' and not interested in progress, just making a dollar for yourself instead.

I can only assume that you have not bothered to read up on those in the industry who (like Terry Coman) are in favour of humane treatment of food stock.

Easier to fling childish insults than actually take time to learn - you have been posting here for many years and unlike Belly (who at least will admit he may be wrong occasionally) can never entertain the fact that there are others who are more qualified and knowledgeable than you.

It seems to me that even though the AA bring the issues to light it is usually upto the governing body to attempt to put it right.
When outside influence groups with different agendas voice what they think needs to be done then what you end up with is a resolution that benifits nobody and the continuation of cruelty maybe not to aust. cattle but the cruelty will continue.
Is AA and their disciples really for stopping these barbaric acts or is it just because they want to make a point.
Its good its in the open now lets fix it.
Unfortunatley most countries are not as developed in infrastructure as we are, that should be a part of what is taken into account.
We are a lucky country we have good people who know their jobs we have good people that bring our mistakes out into the open and we respect that but we need to be realistic not only for us but for all who we interact with, we need to understand their situation as well.
Is stopping the live cattle trade actually going to stop this cruelty
answer honestly. If you say YES your fooling yourself, if you think slaughter here is the way to go,answer this,can you afford to eat in a high class restaurant every night?
Not every one has the necessary funds as we do most of these countries we export to have hugh populations of very very low income families but this seems not to be an influence.
Please we cannot overlook human rights as well as animal rights.
We need to resolve this issue with all its ugliness so that we as people gain in stature and so will the animals.

Ammonite thanks again for that in the other thread, including the view I was rude for not doing it.
Rubbish however! no union makes workplace delegates join the ALP.
A rule exists that you MUST BE a member to be in the party it is ignored .
Yabby note, the soft underbelly the infection, ALP is tasked in my view as the only force ever that can defeat conservatism, with twisting and turning to the will of? greens and others who want control from the back seat of a party they abandoned and so badly miss use.
YOU/I have put and end to cruelty on the table.
And end now, we do not ignore the wrongs or the need to put an end to them.
But as in every single issue, it can be any thing, answers run second to anchoring the boat on the problem refusing to move.
OUTCOMES are the way.
I can not see why anyone wants this to progress in to another club Abbott can use to beat Labor with.
And ask this, are ANY VEGANS taking part in this debate here.

Yes Yabby, ranting about the supposed 'housewives' in animal welfare groups would only serve to upset them even more, and in any case, they should be so lucky to have housewives among their members.
They are very handy people - able to multi-skill and deal with childish issues such as yourself : )

At the end of the day, it was these animal rights groups, with the massive addition of public opinion, that helped bring this multi-million dollar industry to it's knees over their handling of animal cruelty.

So they are not so 'sissy' at all are they really?

Yes, lets just bring the industry to its knees but let the cruelty continue....good thinking

MickC, I doubt the business-savvy Indonesians will allow the cruelty to continue if they are to lose that much beef. Their customers must be a tad upset by now don't you think?

I also doubt they can find that much quality beef in another market somewhere else anytime soon either.

Far better to take a strong stand now, with short-term pain to farmers, than to allow the cruelty to continue unchecked.

Mick C jump over here room on the naughty boys seat for you.
You will be pleased to know we are capable of thinking about the whole problem.
Not ruled by emotions,but looking for answers.
Suzi on this you are wrong.
No way around it just wrong.
And let those who know stop animal cruelty not the trade.
WHY are we side stepping my question, it would cost about 100 Australian dollars to buy cruel actions out side the norm,was any one paid?
It would not be the first time, TV Journalists do it all the time
AA would without second thought.

Thanks for keeping the seat warm Belly

Suzi there is no short term with the weight regulations 'over 350kg dont go' which we contend with and the coming wet season it could be a fair time before we have a chance to get cattle over there. That is if it ever starts again.

This is going to be disastrous not only for us as a trusting trade partner but there are going to be a lot of people going hungry.

Sometimes we talk without thinking and then we jump blindly.

But such is life!

Morganzola, most are not animal welfare groups, but animal rights
groups, something very different. Most are vegans basing their
philosophies on Peter Singer. Most hate farmers too, for they
think we should not be farming livestock for food. The RSPCA has
in the past been an animal welfare group, but that seems to be
changing slowly. Most are not interested in working to improve
animal welfare, they simply want to shut the live trade down at
any cost. Many are also seriously cashed up, so I hope that they
do something useful with all that money. I seem to recall that
one rich benefactor alone has made a few million $ available to
AA. So if they are doing something useful with all that money,
well that is not a bad thing.

Some of these animal rights groups have constantly cried wolf
about all sort of things. They lack credibility because they lack
people who understand livestock and agriculture, just like PETA.

*The requirement of fattening cattle for the slaughter does not prevent the RE-INTRODUCTION of abattoirs*

Ammonite its not much good to you, if the feed is in Indonesia!
Unless you start trucking it thousands of km, at which point
costs will break you.

*I think you are merely arguing in favour of 'business-as-usual' and not interested in progress*

Which goes against everything I have posted so far. I have stated
many times on this topic, that animal welfare should be addressed,
for a start by giving workers slaughtering cattle, proper gear.
Given that we donate 4 billion a year to foreign aid, a few million
of that would in fact go a long way to achieve just that

*Yes Yabby, ranting about the supposed 'housewives' in animal welfare groups would only serve to upset them even more *

Sheesh Suzie, I am gonna have some sleepless nights now :)

Let me tell you something. Long before you came along, for years
in fact, we had the animal liberation wars on OLO. Every vegan
with an axe to grind came along. Funnily enough, nearly all were
women.

Yes, housewives are handy people, but that does not qualify them
in livestock handling.

Well i am buggered if I know because I started a conversation thread of my own. Then I started reading this and something else occurred to me.
(Maybe I will do something on that later who knows)
After reading all of this i found myself side tracked. I actually made little notes of who was who- and a few comments both male and female and came up with some interesting results overall.

- I didn't even know this site was here but I have decided to talk about the people and their comments one by one and include it in my overall report.

You can view them here if anybody is interested because i don't have the time to post in two places.

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=496

Yes, housewives are handy people, but that does not qualify them
in livestock handling.....and just when you thought the volcano was dormant:)

Oh dear....has it been that long:)

Well, yabbies an old dusty that you can relay on time and time again. However Its a bit like nature puts all in its place for a reason and The ugly word of balance hits the screen.
Every human is a............and thats the way we are:) All women have an axe to grind, and who could blame them........50,000 plus ago, ug the cave men has his way, then female history has its gains, and what do we end up with?

Two differences with the same cause, and thats food.

NEXT

LEAP

Dearest Yabby <"Yes, housewives are handy people, but that does not qualify them in livestock handling."

Oh, I am sorry...I didn't realise YOU had qualifications in livestock handling?

Oh, and I have seen you comment on a multitude of different subjects on OLO in the very few years I have contributed (no-where near as long as you of course - oh wise one)!

Gee, you must have led a very busy life if you were able to 'qualify' in all the subjects you wrote about?

Here's the thing Yabby, the Government has ALREADY banned the export of livestock to Indonesia, so do you honestly think they are going to turn around any time soon and say:
"Oops! We made a mistake...send all those cows over for more of that cruelty right now, coz the farmers are upset."

No, they won't.

So the only thing anyone can do is wait and see what is set up in Indonesia that will make it a happier death for the cows we send.

If we miss the boat, and Indonesia looks elsewhere for their beef, well good luck to them. We can always do the same with something they want to sell us!

Kerryanne, I just read your story, your right in what you say, are you a vegan.

Suzi yabby is a farmer.
His statements are truth.
Now please yes please try to understand me.
I am an Aussie male, life without women would not be worth living.
BUT we men lie , just as women do, to keep in favor.
We, country men, mostly think city women, do not know a great deal about our life, how food is produced.
The war, it was that, conducted here in OLO was fought by animal health activists, all women, vegans, and all the different shades of people defending meat eating and animals as food.
I fought in the front line with the realists.
I [a former free transporter at some times huge costs for W.I.R.E.S.]
A believer in zero needless cruelty to ANY ANIMAL suffered wounds.
Taunted at that time, I released my name as requested.
An opponent here,not connected with the fight, investigated me.
For some time[ terrorist like] My every move was monitored.
My job threatened, my mate ship with and the trust my members had in me, gave me a hard fought victory.
Why are we fighting this battle again? who of us is not truly full of RAGE about that film.
Who is not demanding an end to it.
An investigation in to who holds the blame.
Who does not see ending this trade just continues the savage ways of killing some one Else's cattle.
And why the blindness, the refusal to look, to see killing the cattle here is no option.
Doubling the meats costs, if we could do it, making it impossible for the poor to buy it.
IF this debate is about our right to eat meat say it.

Yes, Belly is right, Yabby is a sheep farmer - so should clearly understand the requirements for humane slaughter than he has demonstrated thus far. He is not the only farmer, nor does his job make him an expert on everything to do with live export. Yabby is, however, very very good at looking out for his own interests often at the expense of others. If you read his posts over the years at OLO he has demonstrated this narrow perspective very well indeed.

Other farmers have different opinions to the thick skinned crustacean.

"Well the other side of the coin is that each year we also send a batch of calves to market. Where they go we don’t know exactly, but we do know a majority of them would go to the abattoir — that’s what they’ve been bred for. Their slaughter is not something I like to mull over, but I do know that local abattoirs use stunning. For me, it’s enough to know the animal is out cold before being killed. Ultimately this is a business.

So watching Four Corners and seeing animals flinch at the hands of workers and moan in pain as they were subjected to a prolonged and barbaric slaughter process made us all feel nauseous. I doubt I was alone in being unable to watch some of the graphic footage aired.

In recent days, there’s been a lot of heated discussion between farmers, animal welfare groups and politicians — everyone has an opinion and in most cases they’re right. This is such a complex situation and there are no simple answers. But what I think an immediate ban does is make everyone at the table sit up and address this as a serious issue. Reports have suggested the Meat and Livestock Association has known about this animal cruelty since 2000. That’s just not acceptable in anyone’s language...."

Cont'd

Cont'd

.... If we only stopped live export just to the 12 abattoirs shown on Four Corners it isn’t a big enough penalty to instigate policy change. A sudden stop to the trade (and we must remember the Indonesians still have three months supply being fattened in their feedlots) lets the Indonesians know we’re insulted by their practices. This morning news bulletins suggested Indonesia is saying it will seek to import live cattle from places like New Zealand in the face of the Australian ban; the New Zealand agriculture minister has already come out and said they don’t export live cattle for slaughter and they’re not about to start.

Another angle to this controversy: last year Indonesia reduced Australian live cattle imports by some 30%. There is some discussion about Australian beef producers who are reliant on live export being vulnerable to changes in policy setting like this. If the Indonesians pulled the pin on us, the current debate would have a very different trajectory."

BTW does the generalisation about housewives include househusbands as well? Gawd help our kiddies if these people are as ignorant as Yabby claims.

:P

Many believe a good solution would be the opening of new abattoirs in the North West:

"The study was commissioned in 2009 by the Department of Agriculture and Food and the Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation to carry out a preliminary investigation into the potential for a beef processor servicing the northern rangelands.

It found an abattoir would be of great benefit to northern beef producers, but it would need a significant commitment from industry to be commercially viable.

"The restrictions on live exports brought about by the imposition of weight restrictions by Indonesian importers has highlighted the risks associated with the northern beef industry's reliance on a single market," Mr Redman said.

"This study was jointly funded by the State and Federal governments in response to the pastoral beef industry's strong desire to better understand its options in a changing global marketplace."

Mr Redman said the report sent a clear message about the changes needed to underpin a viable processing alternative in the north, and many of these changes were industry challenges.

"The report makes it clear that a northern abattoir could not survive on the left-overs from the live export trade," Mr Redman said.

"For this to work it will require a major adjustment from northern producers, so I have asked the WA Beef Council to further consider the study and seek wider industry comment."

The pre-feasibility report completes the planned first stage of the study. The next stage aims to build on the key findings by further investigating how the industry will need to change to support a viable northern abattoir."

http://www.getfarming.com.au/pages/farming/articles_view.php?fId=9200020101022084722

The article says that the scheme will require commitment from farmers. Ball is in the beef industry's court.

Gawd Ammonite, you are of course well behind the times with your
Govt reports etc.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201007/s2962120.htm

As I pointed out before, plans by AAco are well advanced already,
for a plant in Darwin, which would fit in with their structure.
Everyone is waiting to see if the place will go broke or actually
make a quid.

But even then, its for 140'000 cattle. The question is, why
are you so obsessed that only Australians know best. At the
end of the day, Indonesia's people need to be able to afford the
meat and every cost added here has to be paid for by the those
people. They don't earn the wages that Australians do.

Cruel people and kind people exist everywhere. A couple of years
ago I had a dispute here with a truck driver, right on my place.
He started bashing some lambs on the nose with an iron bar, because
they would not run up a race as he wished. I pulled him up and a
major standoff developed. He claimed that it didn't matter, as people
don't eat the heads, I claimed it was cruel and was not going to
see it on my place. In the end I had to ring his boss and suggest he
learn how to handle stock and take an anger management class.

There is no good reason, if given the correct equipment, that others
cannot learn how to handle livestock humanely. My point again,
we got that wrong so far, so let's start there. That is our fault,
not the Indonesians fault. Farmers like me pay nearly 100m$ a year
in levies for exactly those sorts of things.

MickC,
Thanks for that and I did read it with much interest No i am not a vegan.
Belly, your a man among men. Now I know you are male. I have included a comment about your comments on my little thread. I have to use my own because I am way out in the never never in Tasi. Cant always get internet here so i have to reply when i can get up and having no limit on the posts enables me to do that.
Yabby,
You sound to me like somebody who has invested a lot in live exports.
Are you into shipping of some type perhaps.
I saw something on the site I think one of the others put up called Adventures of Yabby life through the eyes of a farm animal. I am guessing it was written in your honor. I know this is serious but laughed so much my sides hurt.

You can see it here looks funny. I might ask if I can look after that thread too. This is all new to me but if i can help the farmers i am all for that!

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=494

Kerryanne Wirth Parattah Tasi

Sorry, Yabby and other readers.
I put the wrong link up- there seems to be two. Here it is.
http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=495
Kerryanne

Ammonite

You seem to have a lot of knowledge there. Would you mind if I added it to my work because I think as many as possible should read it.
I have to stay now where I am and anyway with this limit on posts here mine would all be used up already. Mine has no limits at all.

Of course if you don't want your information to be read anywhere else I will respect that but its good reading.
Kerryanne Wirth
The old Parattah hotel Tasi

Kerryanne

The more people who find out that feasibility studies were done well before the current scandal - the better.

You could also add methods of slaughtering foodstock:

http://www.grandin.com/survey/2000McDonalds.rpt.html

Which discusses details such as the following:

"Determining insensibility in electrically stunned pigs is more difficult than determining insensibility in cattle stunned with captive bolt. In cattle, any eye movement after stunning is a sign of a poor stun. In electrically stunned pigs some animals will have nystagmus (eye vibrating). This is permissible as long as all other signs of return to sensibility are absent. Nystagmus must not be confused with a natural blink where the eye closes and then reopens. Another problem is that poking the eyes of electrically stunned pigs with one’s finger may cause movements such as an eye that is stuck shut popping open. This is not a corneal reflex and it may fool an auditor into thinking that he/she found a pig that is starting to return to sensibility. To avoid these problems, it is best to observe without touching the eyes. If a pig does a natural blink like a live pig in the yards, the plant should be failed.

Conclusions – Stunning of beef cattle has continued to improve and handling of both cattle and pigs continue to get better and better. Many plants have greatly reduced electric prod use. The main problem areas that need to be fixed in a few plants are overloaded equipment and pig stunning procedures."

Regards

Wow KerryAnne you have put a lot of work into that other forum.

Yabby is only protecting his patch which is a natural business knee-jerk response and to be expected. The trick is to get meat producers on board and encouraging business and governments to foster systems that see the benefits of our own industries trickle down by keeping as much onshore processing here as possible.

It is difficult to look at any of these issues in isolation without re-thinking the way our economy is shaped and the increasing loss of rights for countries to make decisions based on their own cultural beliefs, domestic policies and in the interest of their people.

Ammonite
Thank you and I will do so without delay. I am on it. Oh my god I am sitting here shaking at what you have told me. I know these people in the USA set the site up to give everybody press press about everything but have a big interest in Animal welfare. I will send all your information out in a bulk email to the other moderators and tell them to look especially at your comments.
I would like to give you my phone number but I don't think its allowed on here- not sure but i don't want to break any rules. My number is on my talk thread and in one I am leaving for this man called Belly.
Do you think there is a way if we all got together to get a CD out to each household in Australia. Just by the 4 corners show along we know the public wont stand for it.

That is what got me going and I know there are already others taking out their own threads too. Thank you so much for what you are trying to do for animals. Well i think i cant come back in here anyway because its 4 isn't it. I promise to push your work and again thanks!

To Belly -
http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=497

Kerryanne Wirth
Old Parattah Hotel Tasi

*If we miss the boat, and Indonesia looks elsewhere for their beef, well good luck to them. We can always do the same with something they want to sell us!*

Ah Suze, a typical comment from a typical hysterical housewife,
whose own livelyhood is not threatened, so its all feeling and
no thinking beyond the tip of her nose.

Never mind the livelyhoods of thousands of people, never mind
the animal welfare issues for the hundreds of thousands of animals
here, we'll just react to what is on telly yesterday with pure
emotionalism. Karl Rove understood this all very well, its how
he managed to get a dummie like George Bush elected twice.

Fact is that no cow going on a boat today, would be slaughtered in
the next 3-4 months, they would go into a feedlot. Fact is that
if between the Govt and MLA, they can't get a bit of basic, functional
equipment over there in that time, to install in 25-30 works,
they they urgently need to hire some can do practical people who
can!

Sounds like we might have Gertrude back. I was waiting for that
to happen

Welcome Kerrianne, and I hope you enjoy OLO. I had a quick look at your site, and I assume you are an animal rights campaigner?

I would suggest it is not a good idea to put your phone number on the site Kerianne...you may be asking for trouble from undesirables if you aren't careful :(
Good luck with your quest anyway.

Cheers,
Suze.

pelican
Thanks but clearly not as much as you guys.
What I don't know about all of your side I hope to make up for on another issue.

Yes I have news! little old Kerry - I know my cousin is working with people and in 6 weeks there is another peak body of Islamic council opening and they ARE going to recommend ALL Animals are pre stunned.

So there goes the furphy the industry use as an excuse to export animal alive.

So eat your heart out Yabby and i did read to your credit someplace you supported reopening abattoirs here.

I give you 100% marks on that comment and suggest you work on that angle when lobbying the government.

pelican
I heard there is to be an inquiry do you know when. Havent they had those before and were white washed. I don't reckon the public will stand for anything less than a full ban personally.

Yabby,

I am going to take over part two of the Adventures of Yabby the life through the eyes of a farm animal just for fun.

Dont get me wrong I am for farmers but doing it right- here.

Kerryanne

Followed the links flattering but are only some of my views in favor.
I truly and honestly think yabby like me, understands the cruel and needless acts.
And that they must stop.
I know, yabby would too, this trade will not continue forever.
Indonesia plans to breed its own, using our cattle and others, by 2014.
I no longer live even near true farmers, just a few survivors
But understand them still, in truth they vote against my wishes.
Think badly of me for being from the east and near city life seems to get me branded as not knowing my country.
But not one farmer can be blamed for this.
Exporters? maybe some, governments past and present,you betcha!
Any person, any of us, tasked with doing an audit to highlight problems that may arise could have stopped this.
How do we ignore yabby true statements about 100 million dollars thrown at a dysfunctional semi government group.
Let say this, that group holds the guilt you can back on it.
Do we forever blue about this, or do we put a list together what we want from it.
I want
1 trade to recommence, we say sorry to Indonesia.
2 BUT only after this week coming sees both country fund and use better killing methods one Abattoir at a time opened as they pass.
3 removal in total of MLA make new farmer controlled government policed body.
I am no longer a union official, but I was a good one and an honest one,with a better boss would have died with my work boots on.
Find reason to end conflicts not keep them burning.

Dearest Yabby, the last comment I made was in actual fact, tongue in cheek, but I guess it doesn't come off like that in print :(

Of course I am sorry for the farmers, especially as I live in a rural community and do visit and care for farming families in their own homes in my community nursing job.

However, I must admit to also caring for animals, and the fact that they can't speak for themselves. I was an occasional meat-eater before I saw the first five minutes of the Four Corners program, but I haven't managed to eat beef since then.

If that makes me a 'hysterical housewife', then so be it. Housewives also reside on farms, and are the backbone of the community, so I should be happy to be among them.

I doubt I can offer anything new to this debate, and whatever I say is shot down anyway, so I will see you all on another thread.
Cheers,
Suze.

suzeonline

Thanks for the advise but they would never find me here anyway. The last stranger around these ways was three years ago and he was lost.

I will consider taking my number off. Give it some thought

I want to be clear I am NOT an animal rights activist. I am just an ordinary member of the public outraged by what I saw.

I was lucky to know other people who have been telling me about this and paid for a site that anybody can use unlimited at any time to talk on anything.

I intend to use it to bring this government to their senses!
Its not rocket science to kill them here.

Kerryanne

Kerryanne

Power to you.

I just wrote and deleted two posts full of satire , answering the anti yabby emotionalism in those threads.
Then unlike my wish to counter Punch , said no do not bother.
yabby stay solid you're closer to truth than most.
PS no idea we had another place to post here not intending to do so, stay down here in the bleachers but may look once in a while.
But Mary indeed had a little Lamb and was it tasty!

#Indonesia#

Just by the way Yabby, from little old Kerryanne, Indonesia pulled out on us in the first place. Reduced intake up to 75% so the industry knew well before that there little trade was going to be in trouble. I don't understand or know much about some of the things people have posted on here but i do know about cattle. I ran cattle on my Island for 20 + years and we can to swim them back and forth. No fancy trucks .

So why did MLA and the other parasites not start putting our tax payers dollars into our own infrastructure right away.

We should make no mistake this isnt the farmers fault who get slugged with fees to these grubs - its the industry - the middle men in MLA and elsewhere

Just because you would now term me a housewife don't think none of us understand how the industry- I said the industry has pulled the wool over farmers eyes - because my family were one of them.

All the farmers around where I live now here in Tasi are disgusted by what MLA and the Government have led them into.
If i had know it was this bad I would have helped as much as i could - long ago.
The INDUSTRY KNEW Indonesia were reducing 75% well before this so STOP blaming the decent people and get the industry to get out of the way because farmers need them like a hole in the head.

I assume your a victim of MLA too. I am sorry they have miss led you but too wrongs don't make a right Yabby
http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=496


Kerryanne

NZ found it easy to fall back on the ban they have on live exports.
They do not have the quality's or quantity's needed by Indonesia.
Indonesia has threatened us with international trade actions so it is not as if they do not want our meat.
Yabby, we are cornered, just maybe by vegans.
Nice bit of mutton for tea so still eating as most do.

No Belly, I don't think anyone on this thread has said they were vegans so far?
One doesn't have to eat only non-animal products to show they care for animals.
I want to eat lamb, but I don't want to see them cruelly killed so I can eat it.

Yup, Gertrude is back, this subject is to her like cocaine to a junkie:)

Belly, what these people totally ignore, is the law of unintended
consequences. By now, Wellards have invested hundreds of millions
in shiny new purpose built ships. They are not going to scrap them.

Indonesian feedlots, with many millions invested, will keep needing
cattle, the Indonesian population is growing daily, people want meat
and its can't be expensive. So in will come those Indian cattle,
those Brazilian cattle, next we'll have a case of foot and mouth
right on our doorstep across the pond. Add in those refugee and
fishing boats sailing over, Australia could well land up with
a 14 billion $ a year disaster and with feral pigs and every other
feral species thriving in our country, control will be a little
tricky.

It is in Australia's key interest that Indonesia does not land up
with foot and mouth, the best way to avoid that is to see that they
buy Australian cattle, if they are going to buy any.

But all this is lost in the fog of politics, as the hysterical
housewife has policitians nervous. Never mind that a few million $
of very basic and functional equipment could solve this. Something
which we never provided. Don't blame the Indonesian worker, given
a knife and told to turn a cow into meat. Blame Australian officials
who failed at their jobs.

With nothing but total respect Suzionline.
I do not think one person who has posted here so far, has not been clear, we want no needless cruelty to any animal.
I could invite you or others to revisit the animal welfare wars from our past here in OLO.
Yes it got dirty, but not just on one side, past debates driven, here,by vegans blackened us meat eaters.
Am I wrong? like every one I can be, but the issue here seems a wish to stop the live export trade.
In my view, half a century from now, Australia would be better served by looking back to a day we stopped the cruelty not the trade.

Proud omnivore here, I just insist that Australian livestock be humanely treated from the paddock to slaughterhouse :)

My best guess is that limited live exports will be allowed to resume to the few accredited abattoirs in the short term. The industry has been put on notice that Australians will not tolerate cruelty to Australian livestock, so conditions will improve rapidly and resume if viable. Producers will take more interest in the welfare of their livestock post-sale.

If it turns out that way, everybody wins. While there are some who want to phase out live exports entirely, I think that it must be possible to do humanely. The real question is whether or not humane live exports are economically viable, in which case the industry isn't sustainable anyway if they're not. Humane treatment of livestock is mandatory at all stages of the live export trade, not a desirable extra.

Yabby and everyone - Just a light hearted attempt from Keryanne. Not that I am trying to undermine the serious situation for all farm animals and the farmers too.
We have to get the money back from MLA . They have been paid laid over there but its all over now. We need a new body and direction for farmers. Keep your membership fees in your pockets farmers- Dont give them another cent while the public demand their share from taxes returned and put into Australian infrastructure.
Part Two Yabbys Adventures life through the eyes of a farm animal

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=499

Kerryanne

KerryAnne ease up mate, not going to ring yet maybe later,we all can use the nice little Lamb stuff but it is a fake isn't it.
What do we want out of this thread.
Is it to feel guilt about my breakfast, bacon and a snag on toast.
Or do we as yabby and I have, say ok not good enough lets empty the barrel, take Morganzilas idea and build on it.
Already a state of the art place kills 20.000 a year,let it continue.
Fix the Crimson thing.
You come, as is your right,from a group wanting nothing but an end to the trade.
I to my very boot straps,from a group wanting every possible Australian job/industry wage earners home and right to work.
In my dreams, and that is all it ever will be,I would like these farmers to see my party is not the lost out of touch one they think/know we are in matters like this.
Only from the government seats, no other place, can Labor change anything.
I by the way bring my towel and jump in to this pool every morning,was unaware the other part of this site existed.
This pool looks ok to me , but may take a look at your efforts there.

*Australia would be better served by looking back to a day we stopped the cruelty not the trade.*

Belly, you made a vital point there, which many don't seem to
understand. Of course the live trade can be humane and so can
slaughter. The thing is, in Egypt, Egyptian cattle are slaughtered,
in Indonesia, mainly Indonesian cattle are slaughtered. One would
think that those claiming to care about animal welfare would care
about all animals, not just Australian ones.

What we did in Egypt was to build another meatworks, just for
Aussie cattle. But that does not help the cattle going through
Egyptian meatworks, who happen to be Egyptian!

Australians are actually very good at designing and building livestock
handling equipment, although the people in the MLA offices clearly
don't know much. Simple, effective equipment installed in most of
these places, could work wonders in the third world for improving
animal welfare for all livestock! Most of these workers are scared
of the cattle that they work with, that is the crux of the problem.

All this could be solved quite easily, for a small investment.
That is what I think we should be doing and the animal welfare
outcomes for animals in the third world would be signficant.

Perhaps its the fight or flight response here. Blokes see potential
solutions, women want to flee. I don't believe in running away
from problems, I find solutions where there are win-win outcomes.

Belly

People have been attacking Yabby because of his insulting attitude towards anyone who disagrees with him - he has no idea the background or knowledge of any of the posters. he has also been very demeaning to housewives - I don't know many of those, I think they were more common about 50 years ago, even so I doubt the majority of them were ignorant or uninformed.

As for topic, many people here are trying to suggest alternative methods beyond the current total ban to Indonesia - all of which have received ridicule by yourself and Yabby. Good thing you are not in the industry. But Yabby is and should know better.

Nor has anyone identified as a Vegan, I'm not, however that should make no more difference than if we were all staying at home raising children.

You appear intent on NOT looking for solutions, bagging anyone who does and just making yourselves look like ignorant yokels - and I know from long time observing here that both of you are better than this.

Finally, for all their faults, this world we have so much influence over is a better place for having organisations like the RSPCA than nothing at all. I don't always agree with their actions either - nothing is perfect. However, I hold far more respect for those groups than the MLA which are more concerned about dollars than animal welfare.

Kerryanne

Your posts are a fresh of breath air into a stale argument. I have a background in environmental science and am particularly skilled at research. If there is anyway I can help - happy to do so.

Ammonite, you have dealt with the nasty ones much nicer than I was going to, and I think you said all that needs to be said.

Thanks, and see you all on another thread.

Cheers,
Suze.

Ammonite

Thank you for your offer and its very welcome. Especially in your area of research. The only thing that i care about is the animals and yes we must find a better way for farmers too. They go hand in hand.

I do know that there is to be a new face Australia wide with a new Society opening in six weeks. I also know they require someone like yourself to write their program's. I already sent your other work on through the pipe line for their interest . The reply I got back was.
Can you pls find out if this person is happy to write our policys.
These people have the power to make huge improvments for the animals.
Pls read here because out of room. Not enough space. Ammonite make sure you click onto page 2. Its a small button at the top. Funny little thing it needs making bigger and in an easier place to find.

breaking news from kerryanne


http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=496&p=584#p584

Yabby you and I must now lower our eyes, kick the toe of our boots in the dust, say shucks we are sorry.
Sorry we are not the City born and bred blokes, just gay enough, or crawlers enough, to pretend we agree.
I respect all these Lady's, truly do.
And just may be I should try harder, to sound like some one I am not.
But every day of my life a have had NO RESPECT for some types of men, King Hitters, those who lie and manipulate every woman they ever meet.
Tho ones who bag the missus every chance away from home, those who hit EVER a woman.
The male version of a loose woman, I actually like women.
I will not however lower my head, not say some thing I do not think.
And I will not hide the fact country men very often think SOME women should stay in the kitchen.
A country girl, almost every one of them, would proudly stand with yabby,and me, repeating our first DEMAND end the Cruelty.
Our Second demand? mine is let the trade continue at a reduced pace, UNLESS THE CRUELTY RETURNS.
Yabby you and I lock horns on unions and my party.
But in this case I see not a split hair between us.
I think, with some pride and some evidence, I am a good dispute resolution manager.
The very first and last skill, it will not work with out it, is to see both sides.
I see no evidence one side wants the trade to continue, and just at a glance one at least is indeed a vegan.

Just had my first and last look at your links KerryAnne, saw MickC has 360ed and want to say a few things.
Your earlier praise for me was miss placed, I can never bend to fit in with your wishes and wants.
Do not under estimate me, I have no formal education, but have the university of life behind me.
I will fight forever for justice but not a one eyed view of the world.
I eat meat, and want other country's Like Indonesia to continue to be helped by us.
We educate their kids,and get kicked in the guts for it, by Abbott.
We educated them here, have found a gap we need very much to fix ,but only an end to live shipping will do.
This world is compromise not ruled by minority's we can fix this, but in truth your little group is forming up to throw mud .
I say good by here, but beg my fellow posters this, remember the blindness of past debates on this subject, it in my view did us harm .
Read the links ask this, if no cattle exports and carcases are not wanted what then for these Australian farmers.
Remember, know, yabby and I want an end to the harm but are covered in mud for not falling in line with a few NEVER!my right to think formy self is mine!

*But Yabby is and should know better.*

Ammonite, I am not about to dumb down for you, so that you can
keep up with this debate. The truth sometimes hurts and if the
cap fits then I say it. I don't do touchy feely stuff, I am more
used to talking to rational and practical people. This is after
all, not a gaggle of schoolgirls, but a forum for grownups to
debate based on reason and facts.

All that you have shown so far in your posts is that you are pretty
naive about the meat industry and how it functions and why. Good
intentions don't do it, I am afraid.

And the fact remains, thousands of farmers and others are copping
it on the chin, because of a well organised "campaign" to end the
live trade. Its not their fault that the Govt got it wrong, but
yet again they pay. Little people, lots of them.

Yes I stick up for farmers. I've seen two thirds of them leave the
industry around here, because the figures did not add up anymore.
You might not care about economics, but if it was your family
that needed feeding, I bet you would. Farmers not only deal with
droughts and floods and locusts and every other thing thrown at
them, they also now have to deal with the opinion of the stereotypical
hysterical housewife as well. Who knows sweet FA about the whole
situation in the first place, apart from the bit on telly.

It is pointless building a meatworks anywhere, if the thing is
not viable. Pastoralists can't run stations on hamburger cow
prices, which can drop down to 70c a kg.

The live trade is a critical part of agriculture and farmers will
certainly be fighting for it to stay, as they understand the
arguments, which you lot clearly don't. Ignorance is bliss.

Yabby,

You win today's award for the most patronising post.....

Guess what?....today I've done a bit of home-ed with my son, done dishes, washing, cooked pikelets and sewed three buttons on a shirt (finally!) - and yet, I've discovered that my sensibilities are still capable of absorbing, pondering and holding an opinion on the intricacies of current affairs beyond the walls of my house...now who'd have thought such a thing was possible. : )

http://theland.farmonline.com.au/blogs/farmonline-opinion/a-letter-to-four-corners-from-wellard-rural-exports/2193028.aspx?storypage=0

This guy has an interesting story to tell and he knows a bit.
He says that the people in the 4 corners story were paid.
He is of course correct in that the programme was hardly good
journalism, it did not show both sides of the story, but was
a major promotions campaign coup for AA.

Poirot, you are indeed a bright lady, I have no doubt there.
But my point is that cleaning Johnnies snotty nose and washing
those whites, whiter then white with Omo, does not qualify people
to be experts in livestock and their handling. A sheep is not
a pet poodle either. Like with any debate, the devil lies in
the detail and its wonderful when people actually take the trouble
to learn a bit about a topic which they are debating, rather then
just vent their feelings, often in ignorance. In this case we
have a situation where people who know little about a topic, want
to shut down a huge industry, for no benefit other then to feel
a bit better. They might have a fight on their hands.

yabby in time you will understand you and I can not make progress here.
In just my lifetime I have seen, in the name of equality,a need to control in SOME women.
Go back and read every post, find those that tell we can both stop, end totally,the cruelty and keep the trade.
You will be hard pressed to find a females name on such a post.
And unless I am wrong, both Ammonite and KerryAnne have not seen our criticisms of the MLA.
Sexism is used here in this thread by both sides to denigrate a view point.

Poirot,
Oh that's so funny Poirot thanks for the giggle.
Belly,
Thats is ok if you don't want to talk on learning difficulties which is what the topic was i invited you to post on. I just thought it was a worthy topic as my best friend has a situation with her Son. Hes really very bright . Maybe someone else will come along with some insight into that . I have not seen one person either saying they are vegans.

Yabby,

You may not think Ammonite and some of the others have skills that can be used to finding alternatives for farmers. I am not going to try to dumb down to you either as you so rudely posted to Ammonite to explain there are people out there that are far more involved in the Halal meat trade than you ever will be.

Ammonites work and background in research has been noted by the ones that really matter.

I cant help it nor can anybody else if you don't have the brains to see there are better ways and far more profitable way for our farmers.

From my observation you don't come across as a farmer. Your not interested in other farmers you a MLA laggy.

Of course you don't want other farmers dealing direct with buyers. Of course you don't want to bi- pass the greedy middle man because your one of them.

If you were half reasonable you would see all! of these people are working in their own time to find a better way for Australia its farmers + its farm Animals.

Oh no not you- For you there is no compromise and i feel its very unfair of you to come in here pretending your speaking on behalf of farmers.

Your speaking as someone who has invested in the industry - now that's a hole different prospective than just as a farmer and you know it.

I think we could all do with an update of Yabbys Adventures right now guys.
Any suggestions:)
http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=499
Kerryanne little old farmer from way back.

I am always willing to talk about learning difficulty's,if you put the link I will come.
every one of us should try, constantly to help here nothing is of more use than education.
Hints for some, watch for signs, left my glasses at home is one, the wife does my paper work another never be cruel to such people, they always have skills we do not.

yabby thank you very much for the link, may I ask ANYONE having thoughts on this issue read yabby link.
I am about to leave this thread.
I can not find the extreme rudeness yabby is charged with.
I can smell a rat, just in KerryAnne last post that word Halal.
Those of us who survived the animal rights war, we had one here, knew that term very well.
A group, of mostly women,wanted to kill in the Halal way, and wanted live cattle exports to stop, to help them get that business going.
ANY considered look any brief one, by a blind man on a galloping horse, will see it is not possible.
Workers, Australian ones, would not live there for those wages, miners pay four times that.
Schemes to bring Aboriginals in training them,over look they too want best wages to live on.
We import skilled workers now,have not got the Labour to open remote workplaces.
As history proves this subject will not be resolved,emotionalism beat reality here every time,it is best left to others.
In time, ruled by common sense governments will both look at yabby link and let the trade continue.
I would rather stand with yabby here, fair go means something to me,but you waste you time bloke, those throwing the mud must decide are they telling, and watch this space, our farmers to grow carrots or trying to resolve the issue.
BETCHA its carrots.

KerryAnne
The Inquiry is to go ahead as these news reports indicate.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/national/national/general/exdiplomat-farmer-to-steer-animal-export-trade-review/2193268.aspx

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/ex-ambassador-to-review-cattle-exports/story-e6frfku0-1226074125233

Ex-diplomat, Bill Farmer is going to head the review into live exports. It is early days and maybe the Inquiry will ensure more rigid standards are applied (at worst - given they are impossible to monitor regularly) and at best, ban live exports altogehter with greater emphasis on onshore processing.

Yabby
The housewife comments are low and unworthy of someone who claims to think deeply about issues. I wonder if you know how many housewives are out there supporting their menfolk, working both in the home, caring for children and working on the farm to make their family enterprises work. Marriage is a partnership.

Diminishing housewives in this patronising way won't win you any favours in the bush. I presume you also hold househusbands in equal contempt.

Gertrude, we've all heard about your you beut halal marketing
scheme, for years and years. Luckily farmers did not hold their
breath, when drought hit the boats were ready to take a few million
and a million were trucked over East.

In the end, what we got out of the OLO wars was a catfight between
animal liberation group women, each supporting their little patch.
Farmers also know what happens without the live trade. Processors,
without competition, can name their price. The result is disaster
for the farmer.

Belly, there as a single poster who made some sense, but as they
are a newish poster, I don't know if they are male or female. I
survived years and years of this debate last time, if required
I'll do it all again.

Pelican most women on farms are actually quite practically minded
and understand agricultural issues, unlike Miss Suburbia. As
the woman from Nita Downs Station apparently pointed out to
Mr Richie on Facebook, she was going to send him the 14'000$
bill for hay that they had to buy for cattle due to go on a boat
and the fuel bill to pump water for the cattle was about to arrive.
As they now had no income, he might as well pay that one as well.

Belly,
"The cattle going to Indonesia were for Halal meat supply."
Dont understand why you think Halal is not involved in this.
I am not interested in personality's now or in the past.I dont like racism of any type. I was a meat supplier all my life. Like most good farmers I am horrified to see the way Australian Animals get treated". All my family are still farmers so we want a proper solution too!
I did start that thread up for. You have a real gift there reaching out on that topic ( unlike this one) best of luck. I took the good advise of the other posters and removed my Tasi number. I am beginning to get what they meant.
http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=497
Pelican,

Thanks for that I will get it up pronto ! and pas it on to the Muslim Leaders about their Halal Meat! I am 100% certain they will want to lodge something to this inquiry because the Muslims that but Halal meat have the lousy job of having to try to deal with the heads of Halal Authority s and cop! the flack from the mess MLA and the industry have made of things.
If anybody here is willing to help the Muslims lodge a sub regarding supply of Halal Meat To Indonesia and elsewhere I am sure it would be deeply appreciated.
Thats if its ok with Belly.
Kerryanne
PS Hello Yabby.



Keryanne

By the way Pelican, you really should get out of Canberra a bit
more often, to see what is happening in the real world.

In WA, processors like Fletchers, Wammco and others, tried for
years to increase their local kill, by employing more workers.
Aussies did not want the jobs. So they tried to obtain all the
457 workers they could, only to be bogged down by Canberra
beaurocrats, who seemingly live in another world.

So next time we have a drought Pelican, without live sheep ships,
we'll just have to deliver a few million to your house :)

#Gertrude, we've all heard about your you beut halal marketing
scheme, for years and years. Luckily farmers did not hold their
breath, when drought hit the boats were ready to take a few million
and a million were trucked over East.#

Yabby,

Sorry I didnt see your comment. I assume you think I am somebody called Gertrude. No sorry to disappoint but if it helps I think you are referring to my cousin who mentioned you several times. ( yes there are two of us):)
I am just doing my little bit if thats ok with you.
I can also tell you ALL about whats is happening, happened with the project here-

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=499&p=634#p634

"By the way Pelican, you really should get out of Canberra a bit
more often, to see what is happening in the real world."

Aaah Yabby...you never fail to live to expectations. You know very little about the people on OLO only the odd tidbit gleaned from comments that do not tell you about the whole person or their experiences. I don't intend to post my resume online to prove anything to you as it is about playing the ball not the person.

But your tactics are becoming boring ie. if your argument is flagging revert to type by patronising and baiting. The world has moved on a bit Yabby you should try and move with it.

When I first read the heading about 'RSPCA should stick to knitting' I wasn't even going to bother posting because the title set the tone for what I imagined would come.

If it wasn't for knitters farmers would lose a whole market for their wool. :)

*If it wasn't for knitters farmers would lose a whole market for their wool. :)*

Err Pelican, you are once again behind the times, for of course
some of us modern farmers have sheep with no wool. The only thing
shorn on this farm this year, was a pet alpaca called Percy.

But the term "stick to your knitting" is actually a common business
term, not that you would know that :) It is used in terms of
companies doing what they know about and do best, for when they
go outside their area of expertise, they commonly lose money.

Clearly you haven't the foggiest about what happens in WA, or you
would understand the importance of the live trade to farmers here
and not chant the mantra of the animal liberation movements.

Given that we are really just a cash cow for the East, I am all
for seceding from you lot. When we want a little bit of consideration,
as on this issue, we get zilch. We can't even get staff for our
meatworks either. Then you want to ban the live trade. Pffffft.

Gertrude, we know all about your multiple personalities, we have
seen it all before. But for those who believe every word, well
good luck to them lol. Fact is your writing style gives you away,
even if you have a new spell checker.

OLO remains a magnet for some. They might leave with their tail
between their legs, only to return under another name. Its
quite common. But some of us have good memories.

Aaah... still sticking to ad hominen debating tactics Yabby. While I understand it is difficult to break the habits of a lifetime, as the rational businessman that you are, I would have assumed a more logical and argument-focussed debating style. None of us are ever too old to learn Yabby nor to reflect one's POV.

No ad hominems Pelican, simply pointing out the reality that like
many other posters on here, you are clueless about the ramifications
of your calls for an end to the live trade. We can see that
by what you have posted on the topic.

I can make point after point of reasoned arguments, you have
no answers. Fact is fact.

Uninformed comment from the cheap seats is rather common on OLO.
On this topic, you really don't know much about your subject and
it shows.

Yabby,
Convince yourself my name is Gertude, so be it. I told you who i was.Put even up my phone number even, until i took the advise of another poster because i picked up on a dual personalty. I am posting in my real name too(unlike you). I care about farmers and animals both. I eat meat and I ran cattle as a living. I am no animal libber. Well may you criticize my cousin but you and nobody else knows just what has been achieved. It requires more people because your lot the Government MLA just to mention a few refuse to look at better ways. Its easier to send them live.

I have read so many posts from people who it looks to me have dedicated their lives to educating the public about whats going on with Australian farms animals.
Cracking jokes runs in the family i guess. That does not mean this is not really serious. It doesn't mean I dont sit by myself and cry at the images in my head of cattle screaming crying having their throats cut ten times and more.
You have no right to challenge the RSPCA. They are the authority in this country not you.

Now I believe Gertude has a message you=

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=504
http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=503

No Yabby you just disagree with them.

There are a lot of people who disagree with you. That is why it is best to stick to cogent argument than personal commentary.

*and cry at the images in my head of cattle screaming crying having their throats cut ten times and more*

Gertrude, I'm not going to argue about who you really are, but
I am going to argue about the above, and why you, the RSPCA and
AA are so flawed in your thinking. The whole AA argument about
sending messages etc, is based on a flawed premise. Banning the
live trade tomorrow, will not stop Indonesian cattle, Egyptian
cattle or other cattle in the third world, being slaughtered as
they have been for thousands of years. Those cattle will be
screaming, they will just be a different nationality. Seemingly
you won't care then.

Belly and I put forward a solution, but animal liberation groups
don't even want to think about it, as it involves slaughter and
as vegans they don't want to be involved.

What the third world needs is a well designed, effective crush
where a stun gun can be used. Stun guns, if they are the correct
ones, are accepted by Islam. The total cost of one of these units
would be less then what AA spent on a single full page add in the
national papers.

If one of these had been installed at say the Bassateen meatworks
in Egypt when Lyn White visited, every night animals would benefit.
Egyptian animals, screaming, crying.

They could be Australian designed units, in conjuction with Temple
Grandin. That would be progress for animals in the third world.
I have even suggested an easy funding option, namely just a tiny
fraction of the 4 billion that we spend a year on foreign aid.

That would be progress, that would be sending messages, that would
result in animals in the third world being better off.

But that does not suit the vegan agenda, which is the problem.
Animals are worse off, because of it.

I don't recall any participant in this discussion as promoting a vegan agenda, except for Yabby and Belly. Talk about a a straw man!

There's plenty of us who are neither vegans nor housewives who demand that the live export industry be conducted humanely. Yabby's idea of a press and stun gun sounds like a sensible solution, but it begs the question as to why such relatively simple technology hasn't already been made mandatory.

Perhaps it takes a media expose like the 4 Corners program to force the industry to behave ethically.

*I don't recall any participant in this discussion as promoting a vegan agenda, except for Yabby and Belly*

Morganzola, this debate is far larger then a few participants on
this discussion right here. On OLO, it went on for years and years,
but we've had a gap of a couple of years or so. Fact is that
Lyn White is a vegan and most of the AA people are vegans and they
are driving the agenda nationally. The rest of you simply sucked
up their campaign.

*Yabby's idea of a press and stun gun sounds like a sensible solution, but it begs the question as to why such relatively simple technology hasn't already been made mandatory.*

I fully agree. I raised the issue several years ago as to why
animal groups just not become more actively involved in the
welfare of livestock. I was told by some partipants at the time,
that they were all savages and could never learn in the ME.Besides,
as vegans they were against slaughter in the first place

Sick of trying to debate with people who think constructive argument includes denigrating various groups of people.

The following video sums up my opinion of the current live export debacle. Be warned this vid contains language that may be offensive to some:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCVtcfe7aiU&feature=relmfu

There is a solution which includes reopening abattoirs, working WITH Indonesians to conduct humane slaughter methods AND improving conditions of live exports. All of which results in a win/win for everyone.

Belly

You started a thread on Civil Debate. Remember?

KA

I have health issues which I am not prepared to discuss on OLO - which means I am an irregular poster. While I am happy to conduct research, am not in a position to be a reliable writer for anyone including myself. I am flattered, but there are better writers here on OLO, in fact on many blogs.

Ammonite, Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.
Your message has been forwarded to Leaders who also read many forums. Thanks and speedy recovery to you relayed back. These threads and others are being read by many. As you were the only one to offer to assist It was thought you would be perfect. if ever you need anything just ask was sent to me pass onto to yourself. I would encourage all people in a position to assist to do so for the animals. I am informed a message requesting this was left on Lyn's mobile.
The professional thing has been done the Muslims end and I would hope the same professional approach would be adopted by all.
If not, I would have to re- consider Yabbys theory.
Well thats my two bobs worth from Kerryanne. I am new to this but pls know one and all like so many others my heart is both for farmers and the Animals.

There is no mistaken this cruelty cant go on. We have no way Yabby of forcing other countries to do anything. Send Cameras- they will switch them off- stun guns likewise and so forth.
Also, are we all forgetting at least MY objection is putting wild animals onto ships.
Its just plain cruel. I have tried to highlight also that there is a place now set up to post about such things.
The old saying you can lead a horse to water but... applies here- even I can see that.

Kerryanne

*We have no way Yabby of forcing other countries to do anything*

Gertrude, you haven't thought this through very well. Now why
on earth would a person slash a cows tendons or poke its eyes out?

Firstly if people are given no facilities other then a knife to
kill a cow, many would be scared of it. So they would poke their
eyes out to stop the cow seeing and thus potentially attacking them.
They would slash then tendons in order to try and get the cow
to lie down, if they had nothing else available.
So a good deal of your cruelty is caused by the fact of not having
any suitable equipment and fear.

If there were a well thought out crush to do the job easily and
safely, for both the cow and operator, why would they not use it?

People will do it the easy and safe way if there is one available.

We haven't even tried yet, to use religion as a motivator. Islam
states that animals should be treated kindly. Even the Mufti of
Indonesia stated that cattle killed cruelly in Indonesia were not
Halal but Haram.

The whole live trade has changed dramatically, just not yet at the
point of slaughter. The first ships were owned by Arabs, who converted
some clapped out old boats into live ships on the cheap. When numbers
restrictions came in, most of them got out of the business. But
Siba ships has spent around 300 million $ building new purpose
built ships, where animals gain weight along the way. They are nothing
but a floating feedlot. I will never convince you of that, but that
is the reality right now.

The point remains that no matter what we do, slaughter in these countries will continue, the slaughter that you dread. The point
remains that we could easily do something about it if we chose to.
Now that it is a political issue, its maybe a good time to do it.

Nothing will change if people have nothing but a knife to kill
a cow

Like I said Yabby, nobody in this discussion seems to be pushing a vegan agenda, except perhaps those who subscribe to some kind of conspiracy theory. Perhaps you just don't want to accept that the majority of ordinary, non-vegan Australians will not tolerate Australia's participation in an industry that apparently is prepared to turn a blind eye to acts of unacceptable cruelty.

You have some reasonable ideas. Don't you think you'd do better in persuading the majority if you desisted with the insults? So far, you've dismissed legitimate concerns shared by many Australians as those of "housewives" who should "stick to their knitting". Now we're apparently credulous and naive dupes to some mega vegan conspiracy theory".

You're in the minority on this issue, and most Australians probably wouldn't give two hoots if the entire live exports industry ended permanently. Perhaps a more conciliatory approach might be in order, or do you just enjoy a stoush?

Morganzola, did you even bother to read the Scot Braithwaite letter,
the link which I posted, to hear another side of the story? Here
it is in another version, this time interpreted by Robert Gottliebson,
a rational business commentator of some repute. He also provides
another link to the the letter, if you missed the first one.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Too-much-at-stake-in-cattle-export-ban-pd20110613-HRV7J?OpenDocument&emcontent_Gottliebsen

Perhaps you have been duped after all, for the 4 Corners programme
was hardly a balanced documentary, but more like a campaign for
AA, who are indeed admitted vegans with an agenda.

If mob rule is to prevail, if you want to deny farmers the right
to trade, if you want to remove farmers methods to dealing with
droughts, at the whim of a tv programme, then we have every right
to expect that the mob show at least some sign of understanding
the issue, not just all emotion and no reason, as has been
displayed on this thread. If it was your livelyhood that was
destroyed, you would be crowing very loudly. That is what has
happened to some up north.

I am all for improving animal welfare. I also realise that funding
is limited, so far to us farmers paying levies on every sheep or
cow that is sold. MLA in the end, comes under the control of the
Minister of Agriculture. If he thinks that more should be spent
on animal welfare then the funding available, he is free to make
that suggestion or even better, provide some funding from the
general 4 billion$ foreign aid programme. Raise the standard,
spend more, solve the problem, but don't send farmers out of
business because some turned hysterical without understanding the
facts.

Hello all,
Reply to Yabby,

Yabby I cant act as a carrier pigeon between you and Gertrude, so would you mind reply here pls. There are three rounds and apart from anything else it wouldnt fit in here.

Round one-

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=496&p=655#p655
Kerryanne

I smell a back flip coming:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/labor-backs-down-on-cattle-20110614-1g1z8.html

Labor is adjusting its policies to the opinion polls again.

I would not be at all surprised if Labor does in fact do a back-flip - the pressure from the MLA and other vested interest must be immense.

At least the 4 corners program achieved public awareness.

We simply cannot cease live export immediately, like any worthwhile change it must be done incrementally.

First is to ensure that animals are slaughtered humanely in the country to which they are shipped. Not all Indonesian abattoirs are mindless and ignorant.

Second, is to create far more humane transport methods - this will increase the price. If the quality of our beef is such, then the buyer should be willing to cover the cost. They may choose other countries, however, the trend is towards humane shipping overall. People action both here and in places like Indonesia can be a instrument for change.

Thirdly, re-open the northern abattoirs. They were only closed for financial expediency, this short-term thinking will eventually fail as higher standards are demanded by people in third world countries both in their pay and working conditions as well as concern for animal welfare.

Shadow Minister

A question for you, if the Libs had been in power would they have made an immediate stop to live export? And, if so, would they also not be considering a back-flip for the same reasons as Labor? Your attempts to score political points are simply lame. Either make a valid contribution to the topic or refrain from muddying an already difficult problem.

@ Yabby:

Yes, I've read Braithwaite's letter. I do wish you'd drop the patronising tone. I've been following this issue for years, and our difference in perspective is due to our respective evaluations of the ethics of this endangered industry. My view is that it is unethical to participate knowingly in an industry where animals are being treated inhumanely, regardless of what proportion that is.

Your view, like that of MLA and other representative groups and websites, seems to be that we should tolerate the kind of inhumane treatment exposed by the 4 Corners program, because not all importers of Australian cattle behave that way, and it's going to cost producers money.

The trouble with the industry position is that there has been little incentive to improve conditions for Australian cattle slaughtered in Indonesia in ways which would be deemed cruel and illegal in this country. I guess that's why the industry has been content to cover up cruelty, rather than investigate the appalling behavior uncovered by AA, despite knowing about it for more than a decade.

Despite its limitations, the 4 Corners program has exposed this shameful and unacceptable state of affairs, which now shows signs of being resolved due to the glare of public scrutiny. How long would the industry have taken otherwise, if ever?

I don't suppose you'll ever concede fault or negligence on the part of the unpopular live exports industry, so it's just as well we have organizations like Animals Australia, and a government willing to act to ensure that such brutality is consigned to our past. In national terms, the live export industry is not only unpopular, but also relatively insignificant in economic terms. If the industry wants to survive in such a climate, they need to take responsibility for their product 'from paddock to plate' instead of just doing the bare minimum they can get away with and mouthing platitudes.

*Your view, like that of MLA and other representative groups and websites, seems to be that we should tolerate the kind of inhumane treatment exposed by the 4 Corners program*

Morganzola, show me where I wrote that.I have written exactly what
I think, wrote it years ago on OLO in fact. I don't think you
actually bother to read my posts too well.

*I guess that's why the industry has been content to cover up cruelty*

Who in the industry covered up cruelty?

*How long would the industry have taken otherwise, if ever?*

That depended on MLA and the funding which they had available. To
their credit, they had in fact started rolling out a stun gun
programme, with another 5 works due to be upgraded. If the public
wants it speeded up, so put public money where your mouths are.

*In national terms, the live export industry is not only unpopular, but also relatively insignificant in economic terms.*

Its a billion $ industry and absolutaly vital to Western Australian
agriculture. Multiply that by 6 and you know what its worth to
the country. It is absolutaly vital in helping farmers deal with
drought. Next you will be complaining that farmers are causing
soil erosion. You really don't seem to understand the industry.

Its not there to win popularity prizes, its there to let tens of
thousands of Australians earn a living. You are free to buy the
livestock and slaughter them here, if you think that you know
better. Farmers, particularly Western Australian ones, happen to
live in the real world of international trade. Few of you seem
to have a clue what that entails, living off the coattails of
West Australian exporters.

@ Yabby:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You claim that the industry's worth billions and employs tens of thousands people. LiveCorp and MLA's own figures state that the total value of beef cattle exported live to Indonesia for last year was $318M, while the AMEIU claims that most people employed in the live exports industry would still be employed in the domestic market if live exports were banned.

http://bit.ly/jNOCkb

http://bit.ly/mywCtp

IMHO, what you present here as facts is in fact industry spin. Indeed, it's exactly this inherent tendency to react dishonestly to criticism that necessitates the kind of exposure we've seen. Just as well the government is acting, to stop the cruelty now, otherwise in 10 years time we'd have a new generation of industry shills claiming that progress is being made on animal welfare in live exports of cattle to Indonesia.

I, and most other Australians, demand that cruelty be stopped before business resumes. We're sick of industry spin devised to conceal unconscionably cruel practice.

Morganzola, you remain confused. The live trade is worth a billion,
Indonesia is only a part of it. If the AMIEU have people who
want jobs, why don't they apply when meatworks advertise them?
You will find that 457 visa holders are the ones who keep things
going. Aussies are off to the mines.

Fact is a business model has to stack up, or the business can shut
the doors. Northern cattle are tough, so are worth little but hamburger meat.
That is so cheap, that you can't pay pastoralists
a price on which they can afford to run their stations, as well
as run an expensive Australian meatworks. Your other choice
is no production at all. They have yet to work out a method
to harvest a million wild camels and slaughter them here profitably.
So we could just have mass environmental degradation and animals
dying of hunger. Lyn White won't be filming that, I bet.

*IMHO, what you present here as facts is in fact industry spin*

It just so happens that I know a bit about the industry and its
role. You are free to show me where my facts are just spin and
not facts. Otherwise you are peeing in the breeze.

*We simply cannot cease live export immediately, like any worthwhile change it must be done incrementally.

First is to ensure that animals are slaughtered humanely in the country to which they are shipped. Not all Indonesian abattoirs are mindless and ignorant.

Second, is to create far more humane transport methods - this will increase the price. If the quality of our beef is such, then the buyer should be willing to cover the cost. They may choose other countries, however, the trend is towards humane shipping overall. People action both here and in places like Indonesia can be a instrument for change.

Thirdly, re-open the northern abattoirs. They were only closed for financial expediency, this short-term thinking will eventually fail as higher standards are demanded by people in third world countries both in their pay and working conditions as well as concern for animal welfare.

Posted by Ammonite, Wednesday, 15 June 2011 9:59:11 AM*

Ammonite,
Once again perfect& if only others were as sensible.
We support you 100% and are keen to play a bigger role for the Animals

Yabby,

I am beginning to see your point on the agenda issue.
Unlike Ammonite, its clear a few have other agendas .
Fact is Muslim Animal Welfare organizations in Australia can and will play a huge role despite the black listing .

Kerryanne

Gertrude, well its a fact. If AA had bothered to organise some
simple equipment in the Egyptian facilities which they visited
in 2006, thousands of Egyptian cattle would benefit and the locals
would have learnt the humane and easy way to do things. They
chose not to, so all that cruelty is on their heads. Instead they
blew the funds on full page adverts in the papers.

What we now have is Australian cattle slaughtered in one facility,
humanely, Egyptian cattle cop it rough. Sounds fair to you?
You know perfectly well that you were condemned by the likes of
Nicky etc, for having anything to do with meat.

Just think if a practical bloke like Roger Fletcher, came together
with Temple Grandin and a couple of the cattle crush companies
in Qld, what a great, humane device they could come up with for
the third world. How many cattle of all nationalities could benefit.

But nope, meat eaters are evil, so organisations like AA simply
don't want to know about such things.The price is paid by third
world livestock.

Yabby,

If I were Gertrude I would say don’t be ridiculous! AA area small group. Why should they pay for equipment in Egyptian plants – even if they could. Lyn White cares about animals and should be nominated for Australian of the year on what shes highlighted . One little girl with a camera has exposed barbaric treatment while MLA are supposed to using our funds to make it humane.
AA oppose the animals going on the ship- Same as I hear Gertrude does. Speaking for myself, if i were rich i would pay people not to have kids full stop.
I would stop all aid until the pill was introduced for men:)
Speaking of Egyptians they actually prefer our bolt method buy large. Mind you they don’t advertise it. Bolt slaughtered chilled meat was requested and some of our own refused saying it wasn’t Halal
So if OIE wanted to do something they would up their act an introduce a world accreditation with humane slaughter.
Perhaps we could lobby the world bank given its great interest in this area.

If I were Gertrude, I would be saying to anybody who really cared and wanted to make a difference pls work with us. I saw one on this thread- actually three but I feel they are persuaded not to help.
I think that plea has gone unheard for almost ten years. Years ago we had a chance to divert a lot before it got this big of a trade.
If I were a Muslim or a Muslim leader i couldn’t win. Meaning if they buy land and get investors public scream its a Islamic Take over. If animals go live- its oh those cruel Muslims.

If I were the Muslim leaders i would wonder why other Animal Welfare groups wouldn’t want to meet. I would wonder too—why MLA and others received ALL the funding when I was the authority for Halal accreditation's

There are many things we could have done working united- but alas.

Just my observations. Yes Rodgers a good operator agreed.

Kerryanne

Yabby,
The deal- your thoughts ok..
We make Indonesia the new Halal hub of the world. Its closer for the Animals. They are our neighbors and poor. From there the HKM meat is exported in a box to ME and anybody else who wants Halal meat.
The project would be a joint venture with Australia and Indonesia.
We bring everything up to 100% standards. No more ships to Saudi or elsewhere. We service Japan etc from here.
Mean time of course we invite investors to build on public land which will be a donation from regional councils. Owned by Australians for life. Staff will be mostly proved by working visa immigration regional aboriginal. We ask ACC to ensure we have enough stock not going off shore to support our own abattoirs
Over to you
Kerryanne..

*Why should they pay for equipment in Egyptian plants – even if they could.*

Well they clearly could, for they indeed have some rich benefactors
and clearly can take out full page ads in our newspapers, more
then enough to buy a humane crush.

If they could and did not, which seems to be the case, then Egyptian
cows will just have to follow you in your dreams, as they bellow
and scream, because nobody bothered to provide humane equipment
for them. The fact remains, AA could have bothered, but did not.
Animals suffer. If you want to change things in the third world
and make progress, the best way to do it is to lead by example.

OK Yabby,

If your not interested to discuss sensible solutions then i wont waste Kerryanne's time. Perhaps your mate Scott might see the light. The Indonesia hub is the best deal on the table and as good as its going to get. It would be easier if all involved got on board. I am serious. At the end of the day its all controlled by accreditation's.
They cab be moved about to suit peoples agendas. That is why all acceptations for China go through Malaysia. You can still have Saudi accreditation for imports running through Indonesia. Malaysia can still be the hub of exporting Halal from their new ports. Nobody has to lose too much but everybody must make adjustments. Australia would play a big role all round. I asked you for your comments on that idea- not bagging AA thanks.

So again,- deal or no deal.

We make Indonesia the new Halal hub of the world.?

Gertrude, I am not interested in halal hubs. I've put forward
a way to improve animal welfare in the third world, where Australia
could play an important role and so could claimed animal welfare
groups. It sounds like some of those groups really arn't that
interested in improving animal welfare in the third world.

Dear Yabby,
From what I observed, Gertrude was putting you on track,
to a multi trillion $ business and growing fast.
HKM is set up to do put improvements in 3rd world countries.
I understood putting equipment in 3rds world countries was HKMs Animal Welfare programe.
However that would be a personal choice for the HKM board to decide. Myself Kerryanne, doesn't think the others you refer to could afford to do that.

Although I heard Peta offered to help with video- something Getrudes pushed for over the years. They can afford it - yes-- well done peta.
Yabby said-
*I've put forward a way to improve animal welfare in the third world, where Australia could play an important role and so could claimed animal welfare groups.*

That is what MLA are already paid to do! with tax payers $!

I too put forward a way to improve animal welfare to make SURE all our animals are handled properly and the trip shortest time possible.

(May the best man win...)

Gertrude would like to thank Yabby for having the manners to finally answer the question- thank you.

Being old fashioned as the name would imply (G) feels its bad manners not to reply to people. That poor man sitting without a reply to his open heart felt letter Yabby- so sad. Just not right.

So Gertude has had the manners to reply to that man Braithwaite. A sincere thank you Yabby for posting his open letter top 4 corners. Who knows maybe he will like the Indonesia halal hub idea.

Reply to Scott Braithwaite 4corners open letter.-

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=507

See you in Indonesia Yabby

Kerryanne

Gertrude, I am not interested in any multi trilion$ businesses,
I am quite happy where I am, doing what I am. I am not interested
in HKM either. So I will not see you in Indonesia.

If you have something to post, right here is where I debate.

Animal welfare in the third world could quite easily be improved,
if local animal groups became involved, even if they put a proposal
to the Govt for money, given that the Govt is scared of them.

There are alot of animals out there, they are seemingly only
interested in the fate of Australian ones, the rest are out of luck.

MLA funds are limited. They spend those funds, they are clearly not
enough. Given that they come under the Minister for Ags power, he
can provide extra funds.

The reality is that most so called animal welfare groups are actually
animal rights groups who are vegans. They want nothing to do with
livestock slaughter equipment, even if that means animals in the
third world will keep copping it tough. That is terribly sad,
but I am well past worrying about the things that I cannot change.

Yabby,

What you are suggesting is preposterous . I suppose you have someone to pick up your dirty towel off the bathroom floor also.
Animals Australia didn’t create live exports and do not approve of putting live animals on a ship in the first place.
You expect them such a tiny little group to finance a multi trillion $ industry.
No if they want live exports the industry must pay.
The others will lobby to have the animals slaughtered in Australia and support the AMIEU as they should.”

Australia is the largest live animal exporter in the world. So Australia must set the example to phase it out.
Oh it will happen make no mistake. Maybe you and I won’t be here to see it-but it will happen
I see no reason why we cant give visas to Indonesia slaughter man under our supervision long term and others.

*MLA funds are limited*.

Pull the other one Yabby.
Kerryanne

*The reality is that most so called animal welfare groups are actually
animal rights groups who are vegans. ....

Yabby, you’re possibly correct. Its their choice to be as they wish.
HOWEVER for a so called self imposed Federal Umbrella peak leaders of Animal Welfare we need a body that listens to “everybody.
That has not been the case with PALE or HKM. They have been in my opinion black listed both Australia and worldwide.
You saw the nattiness here yourself even attacking the founder dead father. Which is why ( G) stopped posting in total disgust.
I can say as a member of PALE HKM they have always been very professional. They tried many times to get AA to the table to discuss phasing out live exports with the Heads of the Islamic Councils and Societies.

Not quite a year ago in another attempt PALE HKM offered the title of Australia’s Ambassador for Australian Muslims to Lyn White to try again to bring unity.

Its was Gertrude’s i idea. Again working professionally PALE HKM requested some of AA helpers to assist reps from each state of Australia to help with lodging subs to the inquiry and don’t forget they have a lot to offer.
In their usual manner from AA – NO reply.
Not interested. Of course its never occurred to them that Halal is a Muslim thing. Are they racist perhaps, i don’t know.
Or maybe just plane cheesed off that they didn’t think to ask for a partnership with Australian Muslim Leaders given they had a 20 year head start on my cousin!
In my own opinion I think that is more the case . Hugh Wirth writing under the name of WSPA did ask FINALLY for a meeting with the heads.
The reply was love to – but HKM will be attending.
Never got back after that- So go figure what their real problem is
Personally I don’t give a dam about anything other than farmers and their Animals
Kerryanne

*What you are suggesting is preposterous*

You just don't get it, Gertrude. Australian animals will be fine.
Others born in the third world will just have to holler and scream,
but apparently your dreams don't hear that.
Australian animal groups who claim to care about welfare, clearly
don't care enough to do something about it, even though it is
quite within their power to do so. I remind you that when AA
bothered to get off their butts and approached Jordan, the results
were very good. What I have suggested is a simple project, quite
within their means and influence, I've even suggested the funding
source. But as that will benefit non Australian animals, nobody
is interested. So be it. If the animal is not Australian, nobody
cares, including animal groups.

* Australian Animals will be fine*

Yabby,

Australian public have seen otherwise.
Our Animals are anything “”but fine.””

Others share your frustration as recent posts reflect. - They dont get involved in anything other than ""exposing the cruelty."" If that’s all they can cope with - fair enough.

They have done more for animals than anybody by exposing it.

I give the credit 100% to Lyn. In 2005 PALE contacted AA to discuss a project with 4 corners. The President Dominique said yes! instantly. Glenyse - no. As so many times before she decided to do it themselves - good .
The Jordan contact was also Gertrude`s suggestion after pales discussions with Amjad the x CEO of AFIC.
Lyn wasn’t too convinced at first but know knows not ALL Muslims are cruel & thats set her on a different path(great) but more needs to done for farmers.

Sadly for Animals after telling them about Jordan when Australian Federation of Islamic Council and HKM wrote to the Princess to invite her to Australia it was ignored. Under no illusions how that happened.
( very disappointing for the animals)
So yes Yabby I agree with you. Some people prefer not to see the Animals get help unless they get all the credit.
I do not however believe that was her ""personal"" doing.

Once a large group in WA was working with PALE . Could have made a huge difference to Australian Animals.
The person then and said- she was told not to speak to pale or work with them or their organization would no longer be a member of Animals Australia.

All that aside, the people responsible for the humane treatment of animals is the *Government of Australia and your industry.*
Not me, or Lyn or the good people of Australia who already pay heaps of taxes.
The funds paid to MLA by the public must be used. MLA must be closed with an independent group to best make sure the money goes where it should- to the animals!

Sue if you wish Gleynse because Kerryanne really isn't Gertude.
Shame on you!

Gertrude, yes the Australian animals will be fine. It is not
very difficult to close the supply chain, which is what a number
of companies shipping to Indonesia has already done. The
same can be done elsewhere.

You forget that IIRC quite a few MLA board members are also
processors. Most of MLA funding comes from the local kill,
so they would be unlikely to divert funds from their pet
interest, to animal welfare. If the live trade should close,
there would be nobody to keep local processors honest, they
would cash in, farmers would lose. Its been shown plenty
of times, here in the West.

So the meat processing section of MLA is hardly likely
to divert funds to the live section, which depends on
numbers shipped and levies raised there.

Basically MLA remains a semi Govt institution, but they
say farmers own it, because farmers pay the compulsory
levies. In reality, farmers have little say.

The Minister for Agriculture is the only one with real
power. He can tell them to jump, their only question can
be how high

Yabby,

Will answer by reading your comment here but posting in own space. We are in different paddocks - I respect you staying where you are to post your comments- Pls allow the same right of respect.

All welcome to post nothing taken off !


If anybody would like to help reopen plants-
Needed-
* People to locate farmers Australia wide. Ask if they would like to sell direct with buyers- be good to get a few together to form co- ops.

* People in each state happy to assist to establish Animal Welfare groups in Islamic Schools

* People to meet buyers at air port- direct them to farms arranged plants for inspection.

* People happy to assist our Society's in each State with basic Animal Welfare info on web pages etc form a relationship.

* anybody able to put a web page together- probably paid- need 6 of those.

* All suggestions welcome for any ideas or projects 100%cooperation.

There are no bosses - once you adopt a school or council its your baby- but we send a mud map of what they are interested in - you choose.

Do you know somewhere where there is an old plant? ALL! Animals WILL be pre stun.

Later if all goes well there will be plenty of funding for sincere animal lovers. Eat your heart out MLA grubs!

You do NOT have to join anything to help. You can just be a person giving up a bit of time to help animals.

Yes Yabby, I know you provided information a plant was closed in WA and THANKS but we couldn't get anybody to call back. Called a dozen times.
Reply to Yabbys last post -

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=496&p=671#p671

PS

A sincere thanks to Ammonite,morganzola,pelican,MickC,Poirot,Otokonoko
Yabby too for giving us all the opportunity to debate the issue.
Banjo takes the reward for the biggest goose given he sees something wrong with protecting ALL Animals

Belly is always lots of fun and Yabbys only fan:)

All the best to everybody bye from

Kerryanne