Reading the BBC web site, wondering why Australia never see,s such story's in print.
India it tells has millions of missing female children.
Hints they are dead,unwanted in a country that values sons.
And this morning in a WA paper another story, Child sex slavery ,girls being bought and transported from Nepal in to India as young as 8 fora life in the sex trade.
Just how can humanity except this.
Why is it we do not ever hear about this in our country.
Not targeting any one country ,over half the women in the world in my view are treated as second class humans.
But why do we not talk about it more.
Is there some fear India may be offended and our trade hurt.
Do we truly care about the dreadful life some women lead is equality just a word?

Belly just one point regarding the oppression of women in India, the Indian family is as matriarchal as it is patriarchal. The vast majority of mistreated wives in the Indian family structure is generated from the elder matriarchs of that family not the patriarchs, they don't like the daughter in law for personal or practical reasons (the practical usually having to do with money via dowry or other inter family feudalism). It is not always the blokes who want to oppress women and devalue the worth of the female child in the family; the grandma also values male children over female for reasons of cash flow.

Well I don't really care that much, and yes equality is a word. Word is a word too.

I have learned over the years that different cultures have their own way of organising things, and an outsiders view is about as useful as a bycicle to a fish.

I also have learned that appropriating the hardships of poor people for a gender cause for middle class women in western countries is in really poor taste.

I don't like women being treated badly, but I don't see why it's any more horrific than men being treated badly, and I get sick of the assertion that is constantly made that whenever a woman is treated badly, it's BECAUSE she's a woman and it's all mens fault.

So, sure, stop trading with India, but then stop trading with America too because 95% of their prison inmates are black males.

Poor men are forced into the US armed forces, poor women are forced to work as prostitiutes, men are conscripted into armies, men die younger, women are raped, men live on the streets and suicide more often, women in Africa get their genitals mutilated and men are recruited at 8 years old to kill and be killed and fight lions to prove their manhood.

Such is the world. I stay more sane by accepting my impotence in the face of it all and enjoying my priveledged existance as a part of the machine that at least seems to avoid the most icky stuff.

You can throw money at it, you can make yourself feel better by shouting about it as much as you lke, but people are people, and especially when other cultures are involved you'll never really understand or change anything.

I predict in 2080 people will still be arguing about palestine, African tribes will still be raping and slauightering each other and 6 year old Asian girls will still be sex slaves

Many cruelties to people would probably be solved if a drug was invented to cure greed.

Nah Bellybabe, women are not equal. It’s very hard finding someone who is considered and treated equal to someone else. I can’t think of a culture that has treated the genders equally past or present and I’m not expecting it anytime soon.

But should everyone be treated equal – doesn’t that have some weird pendulum affect that negatively impacts the exceptional peoples?

And I’d like Aussie to sort out its own cruelty to children before taking on the rest of the world.

Attitudes about women in some of these countries are negative and all too pervasive. In regard to the comments about matriarchs, as is often the case in oppressive cultures, the oppressed can sometimes become the oppressors.

The latest news brought a story about a woman in Saudi Arabia who has been twice arrested for driving a car. It is apparently illegal for women to drive in Saudi Arabia and she is protetsting the ban.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/16/2275232.htm

Another woman in Pakistan is failing to get justice for having acid thrown in her face because she refused a marriage proposal. Acid attacks are fairly common.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/women-in-islam/horror-stories-of-acid-attacks-on-women-in-pakistan/

It is this sort of prejudice against women that makes our Western concerns in regard to CEO roles or quotas on Boards pale by comparison.

However, change is best obtained through internal resistance than perceived interference from outside. External assistance can come in many ways that might benefit like providing refuges and safe havens but in the long term it will take political struggle and dissent, unless common decency eventually prevails through modernisation and education.

I am more than disappointed that it seems a lessor crime to some if its mum in law harming the wife and not the husband.
The BBC story spoke of 7 million known female births, and that those 7 million are no longer alive.
I too express my disheartened response to a poster I think has intelligence saying it is not our business.
The story about importing young girls, some Children from Nepal, to sexually serve 25 men a day is shattering.
Not our business?
Then the sooner humanity ceases to exist the better.
In country's that value boys more than girls, to the extent of killing female children, we are going to see massive impacts.
Apart from the shear brutality and inhumanity,such country's will see a need for wives change its very blood lines as women from other country's are bought in to wed, maybe by force.
If we except females are lessor beings we must except man is too.
People forced to be sex slaves burnt to death while alive and killed for dishonoring a family.
Bought and sold for sex as a child.
The UN is in Lybia to protect human life but blind to its members acts.

'I am more than disappointed that it seems a lessor crime to some if its mum in law harming the wife and not the husband.'

Nobody said it's lesser, I think the point being made was that it's not all mens fault. Women are active too, although pelican gave them an easy out. Well, pelican, women often are the sole parents of murderers. Damn, it's still the father's fault for being 'absent'. Man it's impossible to pin anything on a woman. I think the 11th commandment is woman can do no wrong, and if they do, it's a mans fault somewhere along the line. All those black men in US jails had a rosy life, they are just meat head abusive gender murderers who deserve their lot hey pelican. Oh, they're oppressed by men only I suppose, no white woman is benefitting by keeping them down there. Oh it's a mens system, patriachy, even named after men huh? I'm sick to death of having all the ills of society blamed on my testicles. I didn't do it.

Anyway Hasbeen, sorry to dissappoint. It's not about minding your business, it's about what the hell you can do about it. What does your 'caring' do for you? Does it illicit praise at BBQs? What are you doing about it mate? What's your idea to fix it all? Stop trade? More poverty for that country coming up. Which leads to.... more exploitation of the weakest.

'If we except females are lessor beings we must except man is too.'

Oh that's a given. Not a day goes by we don't hear about the evil gender.

Or the expendable gender. You'd hear even less about it if little boys were being sent off to a life of rape.(Probably because it would be deamed mens fault anyway, and since they're future men they're hardly innocents).

I heard a story the other day about a natural disaster and they thought it fitting to exclaim that x number of women died. WTF is that all about? Did the men deserve it? It was probably their fault somehow.

Belly,
One only has to look at the member countries that are represented on the UNHRC to see what a farce the UN is.

In 3 northern states of India there are 600 'honour' killings a year.

There are still places there where 'child brides' are taken and incest and pedophillia is common.

Acid attack or kerosene burning is way of punishing an unsatisfactory wife or dughter in-law.

The caste system still prevails

We accept immigrants from these cultures.

Look to home first Jewely says, and yes we do not know exactly how many forced marriages occur here each year(estimated 1000) and we turn a blind eye to the genitial mutilation of young girls, for example. Yet we prosecute people that hold cockfights.

I am sure Jewely did not mean to just ignore injustices in other countries, but there is plenty to do here.

What about all the abuse that the 'Little Children are Sacred' report uncovered.

I was talking to this Egyption guy in Cairo once, and I asked him about keeping the chicks indoors and buying them with camels and how I reckoned it was pretty low. The reality of the household is different from the theory it seems.

He reckons that a guy has to come up with so much money to marry a chick, that if the chick gets rid of him there's no way he'll be able to afford to get another bride price together. He has to pay alimony, she gets her dowry list back and he has to pay out his bride price in a lump sum. Some would say not unlike Australian Family Law if you believe old antiseptic.

Apparantly his wife rules the roost and runs everything and is basically a Maggie Thatcher in the home place, and he goes off to avoid the place because he has no power in the home and she threatends to leave him or shame him publicly if he doesn't give her enough money and is constantly hassling him.

He was probably talking sh1t but all these arguments about how women are bought and sold and have no power are pretty one sided. The men don't seem especially happy with this wonderful deal.

Also, there is a constant minimising of the power of the matriach in families, when the hand that rocks the cradle...

There's macho show in all cultures from men, but from observing my mates' parents even in the sexist patriachical 70s and 80s it was generally the mothers that really ran the show. It's easy to pick one side of the equation and say men have the upper hand always but the power of the pussy is not to be underestimated.

The home front, every person's personal sanctuary, is where you really want to have power. Men have just glorified being wage slaves when they really go home and do as the wife says. Even in barbaric misogynist oppressive countries.

Happy wife happy life seems to be the lasting slogan whatever the external 'oppression'.

I could have started, based on evidence, ten threads about men getting the rough end of stick.
But western women, and men are ok in comparison with women from half of the world. Hoolly, long ago stopped thinking of you as just a provocative person, you are aware of my thoughts.
UNHCR or any part of that rubbish organization long ago lost me.
It, if we let and demanded it, could stop this rubbish.
Lets not muddy the water with talk of western issues.
7 million dead female children? if that number is known, just in India,how many is the true figure, add China.
Read that WA newspaper, follow the visit of a woman saving some of these children from sexual slavery.
I believe we need an international charter of human rights that MUST be obeyed.
That women should be of equal value in every country.

Dearest darling Houel if women have all this control then I would like to congratulate them on their restraint and the millions of girls they have sacrificed to Chinese death rooms, physical mutilation in the Congo and of course the young ones they’ve handed to the sex industry worldwide. They seem to have left me out of the conspiracy which is a little hurtful but I’m sure they will let me know if something is expected like sending my sons off to war or sending my daughters on holidays to India or any of the countries that use the acid in your face form of communication when rejected.

I’ve noticed there are some male presidents and military leaders, as well as CEO’s and pimps. By golly times have certainly changed since the good old days of... of... which days was it that the chicks ruled, rocked, and stole all the camels?

Instead of talking to a man from Egypt you should talk to a female from Jordan whose eldest daughter has just turned nine and whose husband is deciding who to marry her off to. You could’ve told this mum all about her personal sanctuary and external oppression. Don’t forget to add that she made her hubby a wage slave and to curse her mother-in-law for her hand on the cradle.

Have you been reading Antiseptics OLO posting history or something?

Well said jewerly and in my view quite true.
It says a great deal about some males and about humanity.
We men, every one of us, can fill books if we want, with insulting remarks about women.
This is about the murder of MILLIONS of girl children.
The daily rape of children in those numbers too.
If we had been talking about the sins of a Church against boys who would blame the boys for not being reactionary enought to stop it.
5 year olds wed forced to have sex.
I am all right its not my concern, just maybe we need to ask what is humanity ?

Banjo:”I am sure Jewely did not mean to just ignore injustices in other countries, but there is plenty to do here.”

I may have, sorry Banjo missed your post while having my little rant at Houel.

We could fix it fast here couldn’t we? We’re not very big in population and if we started with the children? A focus on home first because we aren’t much good to anyone else’s children while our own are doing so poorly.

The only thing that seems missing is motivation and with everything that happens to children being a big secret and hidden behind privacy laws no one seems to know what is happening until some inquiry happens that few read.

This was interesting:

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2011/s3224262.htm
“The CREATE Foundation blames government bureaucracy, saying the layers of red tape are stopping authorities from giving children in care vital information.
And many of the children concerned agree, saying the laws that are meant to keep them safe are actually causing them more problems.”

But then again who the hell are these people stepping in at the eleventh hour and who funds them? Looks like the NGO’s muddying the waters, I wish Govt would step up and make it their job and do their job.

5 year olds get forced to have sex here too Belly, we ought to fix that. We should be bloody enraged that it hasn’t been fixed. How embarrassing would it be for some other country to offer us aid to help with the abuses of children here?

Oh come off it Jewls, so no woman has ever been a brothel madam or reaped the rewards of the money her daughter brings home from her massage job in Bangkok?

No woman has ever stuck a needle up there because she knows a son has the ability to help her feed her starving extended family? No grandmother has encouraged it?

No woman has encouraged and agreed with the getting a bigger dowrry?

As usual, women get the free pass that says 'I am powerless, it's none of my doing.' Yeah right and bonnie was just doing clydes bidding.

'I’ve noticed there are some male presidents and military leaders, as well as CEO’s and pimps.'

I, as a man, bear no responsibility for the actions of other men. Women never have to say stuff like that because they never get blamed for everything, they can all just say, like pelican, that it's the Patriachy's fault, or like you, it's the male CEOs fault. But dear young Kiwi girl, I'm sure you have rocked down to the Wuddy Fuddy for cheap goods before. So why are you so pure and blameless for your part in the system, but those with testicles are all culpable for some guy who throws acid? Why is it any worse for a girl to be raped than a boy to be slaughtered with a machette and why is it more the father's fault than the mother's? Your argument is the wife is just fitting in and trying to survive and has no power but the husband is enjoying the whole situation and wants his kid killed and wants his daughter raped by the tribe next door?

So Belly, like I said, Western people have no Idea, and no we aren't talking about western people's lives, but the parrallel is obvious. All members of society contribute to the state of play, all are equally guilty. And guilt is what you're on about. Just so happens that I believe that the women in these societys are as guilty as the men.

'If we had been talking about the sins of a Church against boys who would blame the boys for not being reactionary enought to stop it.'

It wouldn't even be an issue. Actually, it would be a feminist critique about male 'culture' and the boys would be culpable by their retrospective membership of The Patriachy. Or maybe it would be a crime against mothers, with the little boys a side show to that. With the fathers being slightly to blame of course.

Houel:”I, as a man, bear no responsibility for the actions of other men. Women never have to say stuff like that because they never get blamed for everything...”

You should pay more attention to what a few of the men here say Houel.

Legally I bear no responsibility for the actions of other women, I hate the bad ones more though. Sexist of me but I’m just me.

Houel:”So why are you so pure and blameless for your part in the system, but those with testicles are all culpable for some guy who throws acid? Why is it any worse for a girl to be raped than a boy to be slaughtered with a machette and why is it more the father's fault than the mother's? Your argument is the wife is just fitting in and trying to survive and has no power but the husband is enjoying the whole situation and wants his kid killed and wants his daughter raped by the tribe next door?”

Do you mean “you” as in me personally or “you” as if I represent all women?

It’s not worse for a girl to be raped than a boy to be slaughtered with a machete... how come you didn’t ask if it is worse for a boy to be raped rather than killed? Remember I have cared for raped children of both genders and although all occasions it was a male that did the deed I suspect a women knew about it – I’m pretty equal in blaming everybody, all genders, all culprits and all witnesses in our culture. Other cultures I do believe and have witnessed the fathers treating their daughters and wives as lesser beings where the females have no way out.

But I got the idea you were going down the path of “women actually rule and the poor men get the blame” which grates a bit. Surprised me cause I never before picked up that you felt that way.

'But I got the idea you were going down the path of “women actually rule and the poor men get the blame” which grates a bit. Surprised me cause I never before picked up that you felt that way.'

Definately not. I just reckon the outward macho stuff that the man is ruling the house, even in these cultures, has a large element of BS. Some people even hide the whole dowry and bride price thing but make a show to keep up appearances. Men and women still love each other, love their kids etc

I bet the guy loves his wife on many occasions and puts her on a pedastal behind closed doors. I'm just trying to say that none of your general punters rule at all. But the men are always given this extra blame for the way society is set up, when they were born into it just like women were. There's also plenty of disadvantages for them and everyone's just trying to duck and dive and get by the best they can.

I suppose I just don't believe that people inately are evil. People react to circumstances, they get by, they have frailties, and I reckon it's a bit rich for the priveledged western woman to heap sh1t on some muslim bloke who paid the scoietal sanctioned bride-price and argue he hates women and abuses his wife. And argue that the women in the poor families are all sweetness and light and the men are really to blame because men 2000 years ago set up some order to society.

Belly I don't think you are being fair. I expect a pavlovian defensive response from Houlley you are usually more open minded.
Houlley what happened to your once even-hand, of late you are in their with the boot into women without thinking more widely on the subject.

WHERE did I say matriarchial abuse is a lesser evil - why was that your immediate response? Twisting one's words to suit an agenda is getting all too prevalent on OLO on many subjects. Some hostility on gender threads has become the norm however no matter of defensive responses can alter the fact that women in the developing world are treated and perceived very differently than men, no matter how some might attempt to spin it.

There is much evidence that the oppressed often become oppressors. Look at the Jews, the Muslims and many rebel-formed governments that often become as unworthy as the regimes they depose.

This does not make them any less culpable but merely reflects aspects of human nature.

I wouldn’t say there are many women anywhere that are all sweetness and light Houel.

After spending some of my privileged time overseas where the women can’t call the police or get help anywhere I get really cross at our female victims here. I don’t know how to explain but men change in societies like that, I watched my own start to alter how he looked at women and his attitudes towards his role in the family start to slide in strange directions. I thought it interesting and I was all for assimilating while away but then I knew I could return to my privileged life and my prediction that he would change back proved correct.

Now at the time I also understood I was completely powerless in that society and I became rather submissive. Looking back it was almost like play acting because the feeling of it being temporary was the reality.

The families I met that were raised into the culture – whole other ball game. Women don’t just crumble and cease breathing, they find joy where they can and accept what we would find unbearable. But honest Houel you would not wish their lives on your daughters while if my son went to live there I know he would be just fine.

You know this yeah? You don’t believe it is some kind of feminist propaganda do ya? And I didn’t know you were talking about a Muslim bloke. It was the Jordanian bloke I was heaping sh1t on.

Wee note about money, I met females in the Middle East with wealth I hadn’t even dreamed of before. They shopped, they spoilt me rotten but at the end of the day I’d probably slit my own wrists than live a life where you are next to worthless to your nearest and dearest and your own country.

I don’t get what this “...and the men are really to blame because men 2000 years ago set up some order to society” means.

Belly,
You are right that females are treated poorly, compared to males, in many cultures. There are injustices everywhere.7 million females missing in India is a shocking figure, over what time period? How about this, in the great famine of china an estimated 50million people died and this was between 1958 to 1960. That is fairly recent! Search famine or slavery and more will be found.

But while acknowledging all this we need to focus on our own backyard mainly. I bet Jewely could tell some horror stories and maybe our Susie as well. Do we think that abuse of children only occurs in the NT? I think not. I continue to push for action on FGM because it is barbaric, to think little girls are held down on a kitchen table while pieces of flesh are cut off them. It is beyond my imagination to think of pre-school children being raped and having sexually transmitted disease. Many are constantly hungry and have other infections as well. Mothers pimping their own underage daughters for drug/grog money.

Mate, this is here in Aus, not some remote provence in India or Asia.

I would like to fix the whole bloody thing but the reality is that I can't, so let us see what we can do to improve things right here.

But Banjo you could give 95% of your income so that 1 less kid will suffer, while still surviving yourself. But you don't. I don't think you really care. Any more than me anyway. Talk is cheap.

So Jewels, your thesis is that men are inately evil, even your own bloke, and it's just a benign culture that's stopping him from becoming a wife beater and rapist who treats women like dirt? Nice.

I suppose you're right. I'm sure though, in some parallel universe where women have all the power, their inately nurturing instincts and the fact that women are better people would mean that men would never be oppressed like that.

I agree. Women are better than men, amd all men are a Jordanian culture away from their true inate evilness.

I think I may embrace it. Might as well get my acid ready. Why deny my natural nature.

PS: Pelican I have a bi-polar mental illness.

Now is he lying or not...

Houlley
The only posters who ever go on about 'men's evil nature' seems to be men. Howard Jacobsen did it on Q&A the other night, and it was the women refuting the idea that men are somehow born evil or have a 'wild jungle' going on in their brains.

Men are no more evil than women. For goodness sake stop being a martyr it does not suit you.

The evidence doesn't stack up for you pelican. There is nothing that isn't at least indirectly a mans fault. With the power comes the responsibility. Men hold the power so everything is their fault. The Patriachy. I've heard so much about it, even from yourself.

How about you tell me any societal problem that cant be blamed on men, and see if I can refute it. I bet I'll win every time.

See, aren't women nice nurturers, patronisingly saying 'oh no dear, you aren't evil'. No wonder men like to keep them around since they are so good at that kind of thing.

It stands to reason pelican that the virtuous nice gender would say that.

How can the weaker sex be equal? Does lowering the standards to join the Police Force or other professions make a woman as strong as a man? I doubt it. Face it, men and woman are different. To deny the obvious leads to all sort of delusions. Men are generally the oppressors just like they are also the ones who generally bring freedom. It is natural for woman to give birth and nuture. It is natural for the man to provide for his family. Does that make them equal? Who really cares! Equality is impossible to measure unless you are a female academic being paid to highlight and increase the victim status for women.

Holley I seem to have got you wrong.
Knew you liked to poke and prod, provoke even, but did truly think you had a brain.
maybe be you do, any chance you may use it soon?
7 Million female children killed in India? truth is more , many many more.
My information came from the BBC web page two days ago.
It had links to similar story's,about 5 more, but never gave a time line.
In that country, any research on the subject will find, it costs a great deal in Dowry to find a husband for daughters.
And those daughters are killed if after the wedding dowry is incomplete.
Honestly it may well be double triple that number.
Chinas one child policy, not ignored as much as some think,see,the same.
A son is required to look after parents in their old age.
If it was only seven million,and it is not, that is one million more than the Jews Hitler murdered.
Impacts next.

Upset that I need to justify my concern at the murder and miss treatment of women, just because of their sex is shattering for a life long Social Activist.
But even those who do not care will be impacted by this, within 30 years.
If 5% even less of a country's females never grow up or wed, who will wed the extra men.
In India I fear far more than 5% is the figure,what if it is 15%? and the same in China?
Will women be of great value or just bought and sold?
War,can any of us see just maybe wars will be fought much as primitive tribal ones have been for century's to take brides.
So if it is not our concern, if we turn away because its only them, those others, will we be the victims of a shortage of women, will ours be stolen.
Are we talking about cattle?
It would seem so for some no human being any sex should be a slave .

'7 Million female children killed in India?'

Or fetus aborted? 'Feticide' would suggest the latter. How many abortions in America last year?

How old were the 'children' and how were they killed? I read it's in the last decade BTW.

Apparently the government are trying to outlaw gender being given at ultrasounds. What do you propose they do to stop this?

A doctor gives a little sign for a few rupees in the back pocket...

Forget the one child policy and wait for double that amount of children to starve at 3yo?

You sound like you have all the answers Belly, let's hear it?

“So Jewels, your thesis is that men are inately evil, even your own bloke, and it's just a benign culture that's stopping him from becoming a wife beater and rapist who treats women like dirt? Nice.”

Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name, but what's puzzling you is the nature of my game. Now give Houel back his account you horrible man.

“But Banjo you could give 95% of your income so that 1 less kid will suffer, while still surviving yourself. But you don't. I don't think you really care. Any more than me anyway. Talk is cheap.”

He wouldn’t have to give anything, he can vote and do other stuff same as we all can – actually I can’t vote so I just do other stuff.

“Why deny my natural nature.”

Houel what I was pointing out was how people can change because of what is all around them. If I’d spent a few months hanging out with amazons who knows what it would reveal about my natural nature. My bets are on nurture overriding nature anyways. Like I said hubby changed back pretty quick but I don't know about people raised in some societies being as flexible.

Belly,
I think you may find that if countries experience a shortage of women, then women will become more valuable and thus more girls will survive. I do not think a shortage will occur quickly but over a period the men/women ratio will alter. I read somewhere that in some areas China is moving away from the 1 child policy.

As well polyandry (i.e. A woman having more than one husband) may become more acceptable. It is rare at the moment but not unheard of.
That would indeed put women in a position of power to rule the roost.

Humans seem to adapt to changing situations.

Runner asks: How can the weaker sex be equal? Does lowering the standards to join the Police Force or other professions make a woman as strong as a man? I doubt it. Face it, men and woman are different.

I remember pondering this about 30 years ago as I carted my heavy, sleeping 5 year old son up a flight of stairs. I had recently read a book on women's workplace conditions (yep, a feminist book) which listed the jobs not open to women because we were not legally permitted to carry more than about 15 kg (can't remember exactly but lower than my child's weight). I thought, those rules don't apply to the women's unpaid work, like carting kids, and certainly didn't in the past - think washing over a steam copper, chopping wood, etc. Weight limits were introduced when women and children did do very heavy labour, at slave rates, eg in mining. Originally to protect against exploitation, the were turned against women using the above argument. The other reason the 'pit girls' were excluded from heavy mining work in the late 19C was one of Victorian prudery - they wore trousers!

Anyway physical strength is a total non-issue in the work-place today at least in western society. Miners sit on big machines and press buttons. Women are sought after as drivers of big trucks in mines - this from the manager of one of the biggest companies - I wasn't looking for a job, but I had a test drive in a 35 tonne Volvo tip-truck (a ladder to the cabin, tyres above my head - the strongest man could not change those without machines!). No physical strength required, just intelligence and skill (I was 56 and although I do outdoor work, neither fit nor strong).

Police? A trained, fit women is going to take out a drunken yobbo any day, and anyway, even the male police use tazers, pepper spray (probably too much).

Back to India. Clearly big social problems ahead with an excess of males; but in the long-run less women = lower birth-rate

Just a little on the death rate of female babies in India.
One of my Uni tutors did her Phd on village life in a part of Northern India. She stayed in an extended family where the women were in purdah but where the mother ruled the roost. All of the women slept in the same large dormitory like room and the men would come in the evening to ask the mother if they could spend some time with their wives.
This was never a straight out asking for her sexual favours but would be prefaced by, say, "Could Abhilasha come and help me find my red socks". The mother would probably reply "Go and look some more".
Ten minutes later he'd be back and say that he couldn't find them.
Mother would sign to the wife to go.
Next night would be a repeat but on the third night he'd get told to choose another color and would not come back.
Pay days the father and the sons would hand the mother their unopened pay packets and she would give them their pocket money after she had counted it up and entered up the books.

When my tutor told them that she would be getting married on her return to Australia they were very interested but expressed surprise and some concern for her when she said that she and her husband would live by themselves. Typical concerns were how would she cope with no one to help her in the daily chores and when she had a baby who would look after it when she needed to rest.
They thought that living with one's husband was not very desireable at all.
This family was not typical at all and I mention it only to show that there are exceptions to what we may regard, from the media, as the norm.
The family was from a sub-caste that had been financial advisers to the Indian Nobility and which was now interested in their own stocks and shares.

(continued)
Now to the not so nice part of her PhD thesis.

There was a village a few miles from where she was living where there had been no female children, who had lived beyond the first month of life, for twenty-five years. It was a local scandal but nothing could be done about it.
The Officer-in-Charge of the local police pointed out to her that most of the deaths were reported as suffocations during the night when the mother rolled on the baby in her sleep and that some were reported as snake bites. He had no doubt that the snake bites were genuine as it was relatively easy to catch a snake.
But he said that proving anything was impossible unless they caught the perpetrator in the act, and so it went on.

I spend a fair amount of time in India and I've never personally come across a family where there are all sons due to daughters dying, but then I rarely see village life as we spend most of our time in the cities and even then in the more salubrious parts, but that said, 'accidental' burnings of new brides is often reported in the local papers and I know one family where such a thing happened about twent years ago.

Cossomby, said...

"Back to India. Clearly big social problems ahead with an excess of males; but in the long-run less women = lower birth-rate"

Oh really:) and what do you intend to do about the males that pressures them in the hope that a son is born? India might want to think about nutting a few of them:) Look, populations are out of control in that country, and guess whats controlling the minds of these simple people, its religion! Again and Again it all comes back to religion. Women are never equal! and why do I hear you saying....its because of religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul4RF9sCPXI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP02WlJ1kkw

For all the people on or off this site, who thinks humans are not a plague or birth control/abortion is not valid in this day/century........well...you just might want to go and have your heads examined.

LEAP

QL I would be well advised to just urn my head and ignore your rage.
That is what I see in your post,that and other rather pretentious stuff.
Know this, your views are more interesting if less aggressive.
Yes those two posts add much to the debate.
And I am aware of other country's that have such female control.
Do we have any right to interfere?
We see the arrest this morning of a mass murderer, and do we have the Right to see him charged.
Hollie says I have all the answers.
No I do not.
But the useless thing we call the United Nations is bombing Libya, and not Syria.
Ignoring North Korea, but challenging Australia's refugee policy's.
Half the world is starving, half under dictatorship or worse government.
Does it make it better if those girl children are MURDERED by a woman.
Why can humanity not have a human rights law system that works for all?

Hi Belly,

Interesting thread. I've had major computer malfunctions so was incommunicado for a few days.

The reason that the U.S. isn't hassling North Korea is that that country is more than readily primed to defend itself - also if the Americans got a bit too personal, China would be standing behind the door with a rolling pin.

Btw, in China there are around 117 male births for every 100 female births.

Yes but Belly, I think we still need to clarify your posts once again.

7 million is over 10 years.

We are talking about abortions primarily, not murdered children.

The Indian governmnet has tried many measures to solve this problem.

Sanctions that you suggest against India would only make the problem worse.

Abandoning population control policies would just ensure more poverty and deaths of actual children

pelican, Jewls,

Just thought you'd like this...

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-04-10/entertainment/17919373_1_strict-birth-abortions-gender

'If you've got highly sexed young men, there is a concern that they will all get together and, with high levels of testosterone, there may be a real risk, that they will go out and commit crimes," said Therese Hesketh, a lecturer at the Centre for International Health and Development at University College London. She did not specify what kinds of crimes.'

Hmmm. I wonder if there was a shortage of men, whether it would be opined that women would turn to crime. Of course not, the virtuous gender is there to keep the abusive gender on the straight and narrow. All that testosterone is a dangerous thing, a recipie for crime.

Also, Belly,

'Some families hide the births of daughters, never registering them with authorities, so they can legally try for a son, making it harder to measure the problem.'

I'm sure this scenario is more prevalent than infanticide.

As to the ratio, Bees seem to manage with a Queen and worker bees. I think we can come up with uses for the excess expendable males.

Houel:”Hmmm. I wonder if there was a shortage of men, whether it would be opined that women would turn to crime. Of course not, the virtuous gender is there to keep the abusive gender on the straight and narrow. All that testosterone is a dangerous thing, a recipe for crime.”

You just asked and answered the question. Don’t see how you got your answer. I thought in the absence of men women actually do begin to take on more traditionally thought of male roles. Happened in war times with the boys away didn’t it?

Whole thing is crap anyways – 32 mil is a drop in that population ocean.

So these daughters in China unregistered, no benefits, no schooling, no immunisations, no doctors, kept in closets or what?

I don't know whether they have the same Nanny State beurocracy we do Jewls. I think the no schooling and no benefits and imunisations stuff is pretty standard too. Probably out in the fields all day with their Moms. I think from reading a few articles the vast majority is abortions, which is a bit of a different story from Belly's 7 million missing or murdered 'children'.

I can't be bothered finding out how many abortions in The West every year. Maybe I'll ask runner.

I wouldn't worry. Enough of the feminists running policy and the quotes about the evil testosterone above and maybe we'll have mothers in western countries having girls because they're better behaved and seem to do better at school and live longer.

The marriage of the future will be all Asian guys and Aussie and American girls. Which is strange because I see lots of caucasian guys with chinese girlfriends, but you never see an asian guy with a caucasian gf. Must be to do with the height, or a certain stereotype.

Houel:”The marriage of the future will be all Asian guys and Aussie and American girls. Which is strange because I see lots of caucasian guys with chinese girlfriends, but you never see an asian guy with a caucasian gf. Must be to do with the height, or a certain stereotype.”

Hahaha.

But maybe (and I am shocked you didn’t consider it) Asian boys don’t generally find girls of other races attractive? There’s something chicks have no power over.

“I can't be bothered finding out how many abortions in The West every year. Maybe I'll ask runner.”

Please don’t, its Friday and I don’t want to hear the “immoral behaviour” bleat. Why do we want the abortion stats?

Mens and womens groups always write extreme stuff and overgeneralise about each other, I’m going to become an anti-extremist. Extreme statements, extreme opinions, extreme sports, extreme lifestyles.

Or I’m going to become extremely Pro-Average.

'She did not specify what kinds of crimes.'

Is it just me or was the journalist having a dig:-) It has the smell of 'what the hell is she on about... I'm just quoting her and I'm as bemused as you readers'

'Asian boys don’t generally find girls of other races attractive? '

I know a few who constantly lament that they are invisible to white chicks. I did once know some Greek guys who would only date Greek girls. But they are scared of their mothers I think.

I'm all for extremism. I was thinking the other day if people who have attained a perfect calorie controlled diet, do no drugs and exercise the recomended hour a day and live a totally balanced wholesome life, whether they really are the truley unbalanced people.

I struggle to contemplate a life with no excess, and I think excess is the essence of life.

I have a friend and her teenaged daughter is a responsible nerdy conscientious impeccably polite sensible communicative young lady, and I'm constantly worried there is something wrong with her. I hope mine don't turn out like that.

'Why do we want the abortion stats?'
To encourage Belly to see how much glass is in his house before he throws stones.

Poirot, are you sure in such a thread your first comment demands yes again a kick in the guts for America.
7 million we know about, just in India, surely we understand few can pay for ultra sound, so many die after birth,Sons not Daughters are wanted.
If it is 10 million, I think it is more, just in India, how many in China.
How many in total.
Then the life adult females lead ok with that Houlie?
Now lets not forget those sold in to slavery, sex slaves, children mostly, all over the world.
Houlie laughs at my concerns Poirot Damns America.
Yet in North Korea every one is a slave.
Poirot if you and I sat in on Chinas talks with North Korea ended early today, it would be clear.
A country without the right to be called other than a nation of slaves, has been told to pull its head in.
China fears only a massive inflow of starving refugees.
North Korea would be defeated in a day, China may not even defend them.
Soon, under orders both Korea's will come together or .
China will Incorporated the north.
My anti yank friend, do you care about politics more than human life?

Belly the stats show since the invention of ultrasound the discrepancy has skyrocketed. It seems people are affording it.

'Increasing prosperity in rural areas, combined with a widespread availability of affordable sex determination, produced an eruption in abortion rates.'

"We conservatively estimate that *prenatal* sex determination
and selective *abortion* accounts for 0.5 million missing girls yearly," Dr. Prabhat Jha, study author said.

'The team found that when the first-born in a family was a boy, the number of children born afterwards was equally divided between boys and girls. '

So, as long as they get one boy, the families seem happy from then on to accept either sex.

Still all ears Belly for your solutions....

I'm not laughing at your concerns, I'm laughing that you think

a) Your concern, without any action, is worth something
b) You think the problem is easily solved, through sanctions or something.

But you go about your business, worrying about things you have no control over, enjoying the warmth of the kudos for your ostentacious social conscience, while I'm over here enjoying my life.

Houie,
Seeing that you seemed to think Belly was referring to abortions and not infanticide of the 7 million girls in India, I went looking for a BBC article and found this, below, which may be the article Belly referred to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7123753.stm

You will note that this article states that an estimated 7 million girls have gone 'missing' in the past 25 years. Also that getting rid of baby girls (infanticide) is widespread in India.

Now I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the BBC but it does appear that Belly was quoting correctly. Abortions are another subject.

Perhaps you should read his first 2 posts again and also your first post as you seem to have not got the gist of what he said and he did not mention blaming males.

Also He did not say we should stop trading with India. He cited India might be offended as a reason that our media did not carry these sorts of stories.

Yeah but after that he has continuously held the line that he believes they were mostly infanticide.

'7 Million female children killed in India? truth is more , many many more.'
'surely we understand few can pay for ultra sound,'
'Does it make it better if those girl children are MURDERED by a woman.'
'my concern at the murder '

I think his position is pretty clear. He believes the vast majority is infanticide, and I have shown a study where they believe the vast majority is abortion.

I've given plenty of opportunity for Belly to clarify his position about a solution, but he has ignored me or said he has none. It would actually make for a more interesting discussion if he would bother to try to come up with one. Or is the purpose of the topic for him to grandstand his social conscience. I believe so, so I accepted the invitation to challenge this.

Anyway, it seems Belly has gone off on a tangent about Korea now, so I don't think you can fairly admonish me for getting of the point.

Just read your link Banjo. What are you on about....

'An estimated seven million girls have gone missing from India's population over the last 25 years.

Some of them will have been killed after they were born, or allowed to die within their first few days. But most of them will have been aborted. '

*25* years, and 'most of them will have been aborted'

Houlie do not make it up as you go along.
I never spoke about any action against India.
I see no reason to highlight abortion from after birth murders IF the reason is the sex of the child.
Do you.
I answered Poirot, in aside about north Korea.
See I value every human life, and stand against slavery.
I am b%ggered if I know why you think we are better for ignoring these issues.
Is it guilt?
And while India is the subject many other country's could be.
Some one gave a figure of 17.000 in a 100,000 less females born every year, maybe in China, unsure, but what impact will that have in 25 years?

Houel:”I know a few who constantly lament that they are invisible to white chicks. I did once know some Greek guys who would only date Greek girls. But they are scared of their mothers I think.”

Well they need to man the hell up. I went out with an Asian dude as a teen, lovely guy so it was a shame I got expelled and had to leave town.

“I struggle to contemplate a life with no excess, and I think excess is the essence of life.”

Yep but you might be excessively wrong.

“I have a friend and her teenaged daughter is a responsible nerdy conscientious impeccably polite sensible communicative young lady, and I'm constantly worried there is something wrong with her. I hope mine don't turn out like that.”

I’m the same and I worry about consistently calm people like I would a ticking bomb.

So anyways, gender specific abortions or baby girls killed days later or sold into the sex industry a few years later. What a wonderful world.

“But you go about your business, worrying about things you have no control over, enjoying the warmth of the kudos for your ostentatious social conscience, while I'm over here enjoying my life.”

Hmm... umm... alrighty Houel take it easy, enjoy your kids. Have a good weekend. Stop worrying about the poor downtrodden menfolk everywhere.

Belly you raised 10 kids yeah? Amazing stuff, hope you have a great weekend and thanks for keeping people thinking about the kids out there.

'Stop worrying about the poor downtrodden menfolk everywhere'

Meh. Men, women, swings, roundabouts. I'll take the swings 'cause I'm used to them, I just continue to be fascinated by the constant whinging about roundabouts.

'keeping people thinking about the kids out there.'
What does this thinking achieve Jewls? Make you a bit grumpy so you don't enjoy the time with your own? Sounds pretty silly to me.

Belly,

'I am b%ggered if I know why you think we are better for ignoring these issues.'

Thought that leads to no action is pointless.

You cant be bothered even pontificating any kind of action in the first place (while I have BTW), but instead think it's enough for you to shake your head and go woe is them. Well, they cant even hear you. And you wonder why I take the piss.

Hi Belly,

Wealth is a prime source of social status; moreover it can be converted into power and prestige. If men make a greater economic contribution to the family and society than women, then men are likely to have superior social status in both. Conversely, if the economic contribution of women increases relative to that of men, than the inequalities between the sexes should diminish.

There are various ideologies that justify social inequality of various kinds. The ideology of sexism is endorsed to some extent by religion. For example, the sacred text of Islam, the Koran, declares:

"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities in which God
has given them pre-eminence."

In fundamentalist Islamic countries, such teachings are used to justify the virtual exclusion of women from high political, economic, or religious statuses. In fact, fundamentalist Islamic nations, make women almost invisible in public: women may not appear without veils, may not drive cars, may not work in the same office with men, and don't have the right to vote.

The Judeo-Christian religious tradition also seems to value men above women. According to the Genesis story, God made man in His own image, with women as a subsequent and secondary act of creation. The ancient
Israelites were a strongly patriarchal people, and even today a male
orthodox Jew is expected to say this prayer every morning:

"Blessed art thou, oh Lord our God, King of the Universe, that I was not born a gentile. Blessed art thou, oh Lord our God, King of the Universe, that I was not born a slave. Blessed art thou, oh Lord our God, King of the Universe, that I was not born a woman."

This bias, was transmitted to Christianity through the later teachings of Saint Paul, who saw the inferior role of women as part of a divinely ordained natural order:

"A man...is the image of God and reflects God's glory; but woman is the reflection of man's glory...Man was not created for the sake of woman, but woman was created for the sake of man." (I Corinthians:
11:7-9).

cont'd...

Houei,
You missed this bit of the article.

'In Indian culture, the preference for boys over girls is well known.

Getting rid of baby girls is a practice that is so widespread in some parts of India that it has skewed dramatically the ratio of males to females'.

Seeing the scanning for gender is illegal, as is abortions for gender, in India few would have the means or the money to get it done.

Google infanticide, wikipedia and the UNHIEC claims there are 50 million females missing in India. India disputes this.

In China there are 40 million missing females. Most by abortions.

The point of all this is that females are not valued equally with males in many cultures, which Belly is saying and rightly bringing this to our attention.

Incidently, the article also says that, according to calculations, there are 1500 missing baby girls in the UK that were born to Indian mothers. Now there is a question. Could culture have anything to do with it?

“What does this thinking achieve Jewls? Make you a bit grumpy so you don't enjoy the time with your own? Sounds pretty silly to me.”

My own are legally adults now so I’m done. Yay made it! Joe says I’m not done but I’m trying to completely ignore that.

I have to admit to feeling rather removed from worrying about children overseas when I know what is happening to children here.

Any discussion about children, that people aren’t being paid to participate in, helps me feel less alone. :)

I don’t get grumpy - sad often, sick sometimes, enraged occasionally, completely devastated now and again... Imagine what the kids are feeling if a mere witness feels these things?

cont'd ...

Even today many denominations reserve their priesthoods or equivalent positions for men - although, as women gain greater equality elsewhere in society, they are achieving higher statuses in religion also.

The sexist belief in the superiority of men pervades many areas of social life. Both men and women tend to incorporate prevailing stereotypes about femininity and masculinity into their self-concepts, and these understandings shape their personalities and the way they relate to one another.

As we know from history - women have learned to hide, reveal, or distort their bodies, in accordance with the prevailing male notions of how women should appear. In traditional China, men admired tiny female feet - so girls' feet were permanently deformed through footbinding, a painful practice that left them barely able to walk.

In some West African tribes where men admire very plump women, young girls deliberately fatten themselves into obesity in order to attract a husband. Among some North Afric an people women have for generations submitted to brutal surgery to remove their clitoris - supposedly to reduce their sexual appetites and thus keep them faithful to their husbands. In North America, and many Western countries, where large, firm breasts have been admired for most of the century, millions of women have had their breasts surgically reshaped or enlarged.

Now that men's ideal for womanhood is shifting to a leaner and more athletic look, dieting has become a female obsession, with over a third of Western women considering themselves too fat. Every year, in fact, millions of women starve themselves to the point of anorexia, no less compulsively than some of their West African counterparts gorge themselves to plumpness.

Men, in contrast are rarely expected to shape their bodies to conform to women's notions of how they should look - for men rely rather on their power, wealth, or prestige to attract the opposite sex.

As long as people continue to take the status quo for granted, it will persist. But if they come to see the situation as socially created -and unjust - they will begin to demand change.

Gender imbalance is already rife in India and one outstanding example can be found on Bombay's (officially Mumbai) electric suburban train network.
"Eve Teasing' is the local euphemism for girls and women being groped on trains, and on the streets, however the trains provide better opportunities.

'Eve Teasing' is probably the real reason that every suburban train has 'Ladies Only' carriages and the 'Railway Employees Only' trains (Workers Specials) are not an exception.
There are men in India who will never marry because of the imbalance that already exists and it will only get worse.

Belly,

I've just noticed your self-righteous little rant in my direction.

I was merely introducing a modicum of reality into your fanciful commentary on the U.N. bombing Libya (?)....NATO actually, old chum....while ignoring North Korea.

I won't dignify your last sentence with a reply.

....and I'm not your " anti yank friend" dear.

"Why can humanity not have a human rights law system that works for all?"

Well belly, that's the question of the century, isn't it. Like you, I can fly all over cyber space and visit the four corners of the globe with ease. What I see in this world is dispiriting to say the least. People like myself and you, can stand off the planet and look down at the ant ball, with very concerning looks. Humanity is just a word people use to pretend that whats really happening isn't that bad, however realists or non-religious people, can see clarity with true visions of real time, without fooling our selves all is fine, and she'll be right mate!.....with feel good pipe dreams.

Houellebecq is in order on so many levels, I've lost count......and to call the human-race advanced, lol .....For some people on this planet, I wouldn't pee on them, even if they were on fire.

Angry you say:) No....passionate would be a more appropriate understanding, since my environmental stance has more abundant priorities than the care/need for human greed.

I always say belly....If Your Not Happy With Your World, CHANGE IT>

Who said we cant?

We all have our vested interests on this planet, and its true, we vote in some of the worst leaders humanity has ever seen, and that's why we all have to see whats going on, or it will just continue.

The philosophy of more humans the better, is now going to bite us all in the arse, and the greedy ones are to blame:)

India is the prime example of a world gone mad.

lea

Poirot, I have always had respect for you, still do.
But I fear you too, and what you stand for, every day of my life.
The modern green/left all too ready to defend any one who is anti America.
Ready to side step issues like this, but focus on views like yours about the inhumanity of A WHOLE COUNTRY owned and miss used in the way North Korea's despotic rulers, backed by China, do not bring the same contempt from you that the word AMERICA does.
How can any one, from the left especially, not be hurt deeply by the murder of so many.
Houlie you will never know what an activist does, far from just talking.
Giving such story's air is just a start.
PS
Greens have announced they 12% of the vote,will kill the Malaysian refugee deal,4.000 refugees will remain in that country boats will continue to come and a Labor government will fall.
Know now why I fear such? just hope my party ensures its a both houses election the country needs an end to unfocused green rule.

Belly,

I'm not sure that I'm impressed with your style of debate, which is to seize the moral high ground and denigrate anyone who introduces another aspect to the argument.

I give you a perfectly plausible explanation as to why NATO and the U.S. tip-toe around North Korea, and the next thing you're labelling me all sorts of diabolical epithets and lumping me in the same corner with despots.

You seem to enjoy the wailing and gnashing of teeth, while never attempting to offer realistic ideas for their solution. Your original lament on the status of women in third world countries is pertinent - I take exception to you insinuating that someone like me has no interest in their condition....but your main intention here seems to be to trumpet your own altruism and political views and cast aspersions on anyone who you daub with red/green colours.

Read this Belly, it's about India and the plight of men and women:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_2000/lecture5.stm

Re :
“Why is it we do not ever hear about this in our country.
Not targeting any one country ,over half the women in the world in my view are treated as second class humans.
But why do we not talk about it more.”

Belly, a good thread. Now you're sounding like traditional labor.

Why indeed –we seem to be overly endowed with persons who want to micromanage ever aspect of our lives from poker machines to parenting --but few seem to want to take up such gross inequities.

And

Re :
“Hi Belly,

Interesting thread. I've had major computer malfunctions so was incommunicado for a few days.”

Allah Akbar (and merciful too!)

Women can never achieve equality with men in some fields.
Take for instance working in a factory on a manual controlled lathe, a man will always produce more in a given time than a woman especially if the work is on piece-rate or on a bonus for production numbers.

This is a bit mundane of course, but a woman does not have the physical attributes to equal a man on such work, and this is only one of many ways in which females cannot achieve equality; they just aren't built for it.

Men and women evolved as complementary to each other..we each have attributes that complement the other.

It's only in the modern industrial setting that women find themselves in the position, with the aid of technology, to take on many of the traditional roles of men. In many ways this has served to heighten tensions between the genders as the line separating gender roles has become blurred.

....and before you jump down my throat, Belly, I'm not advocating that women operating in 21st century conditions should be denied the trappings and convenience enjoyed by their brethren. I do believe, however, that if we could all simplify things somewhat we might be a little more content.

Poirot

In addition, women competently took over the running of factories for the war effort in the 20th C.

Have always performed physically demanding tasks in more primitive times, working the fields with toddlers in tow. BTW the average 3 year old weighs more than a women is permitted to lift in the modern office. My sister could bench press her smaller, wiry husband - if she wanted to.

If so much is placed on sheer brute force, many men would not qualify as "equals" either.

Refocus Poirot,your first comment here read it again.
And you ask why I lashed out about North Korea.
Do you doubt that country, and others is popped up by China?
That life for every one,5 generations who never knew the world as it is, who starve to death exist enslave camps within a country that is a prison.
How many off us are true activists, join groups to try, at least that, to highlight that ALL WORLD POWERS have the blood of other country's people on their hands.
Not just America, not the worst America England was much worse.
I miss titled this thread.
I wanted to highlight half the worlds females are living as lessor beings.
For every story about men being better than women in some things the reverse can be true true in another area.
The fact we are talking about such, and not sexual slavery and a life of second class existence, has to concern us.
I can not, now or ever, stop highlighting the lefts faulty logic, it shines from them, constant dribble about America.
And blindness to the sins of Russia /China/nations in the Balkans and Africa, or Mexico's inability to control mass murders by drug gangs.

Belly

Why are you debating with someone as intelligent and thoughtful as Poirot? Do you expect 100% agreement from everyone?

Surely it is the "Is Mise"'s here in Australia and in other cultures who require the benefit of your deeply held opinions.

I applaud your concern for the women of countries from North Korea to Afghanistan. However, letting yourself lose your message due to minimal differences of ideology with Poirot is a mistake.

Belly,

I haven't got time today to get into a slanging match on this.

Yes, China has tacitly approved of Pyongyang's belligerence and their diabolical regime, and much of Mexico's woes stem from cross-border drug and gun running between it and the U.S.

I object to your labelling anyone who points out America's faults, as tacitly approving the bad behaviour of other countries. It's all about the hypocrisy of humans when they have power...and the same goes for all the women that are abused and maltreated in general.

If you bothered to read any of that article of the lecture by Vandana Shiva, you'd realise that it is the women and small farmers who have nurtured the third world, and that with the advent of globalisation and the consequent mechanisation and privatisation of food sources, that this has now been usurped in favour of profit,

Everything is connected and if you fail to see that absolute power is corrupt no matter who wields it, then there's no point in discussing this further.

It is because Poirot is a poster I expect better from that I let myself wander.
You mention another poster I mostly do not respond to.
I am as I am, can not would not change that.
Just as I truly fear such as Tony Abbott, hold the belief he is a total fraud, I fear the fragmentation of the not conservative side.
A world that is not looking for better, that excepts in any name, including a fable God, that females are secondary ,is unacceptable to me.
However I again BEG, that we not except such as north Korea,or Chinas blind self interest and total failures in human rights at home and in its near colony's, yes NK is a colony,would be part of the south without China.
Reading goggle news USA lead today to the claim 300.000 American girls as young as 13 are being forced into prostitution.
Now nothing against it if its what they want to do, but it is not , women are being exploited just because they are female.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

Gees, quite round here:)

LEAP

Bellybabe:”Reading goggle news USA lead today to the claim 300.000 American girls as young as 13 are being forced into prostitution.
Now nothing against it if its what they want to do, but it is not , women are being exploited just because they are female.”

Was that a typo with the 13 year olds being forced being different from if they wanted to do it?

No not a typo just me being an idiot!
No way I support any child sex.
As I have often said, we all get it wrong here in OLO.
Saying so jewerly is a problem for some not me.
Brings me to this, not sure I should but in the news is Slut marching.
Now first, no way any victim, EVER should be blamed.
And as a male I do not want women to dress like postal pillar boxes.
And prostitution is forever going to take place.
But just can not see two things, why we want to stop it if it is not drugs or such driving it.
And ,Sorry wanting to own the word Slut and say it is linked to victims is weird stuff.

I’ve probably heard slut marching referred to enough times now that I should probably go find out what it is. Someone wants to own the word slut? They can bloody have it with bells on, is anyone objecting?

I did think the mention of the 13 year olds strange and not at all what you meant to say. Was really wondering if a word had been missed or you had intended to say something else.

I don’t know if drugs are always behind forcing young ones into prostitution, some of it must be good old fashioned greed. Is it very bad form to mention that mostly (huge percentage I’m guessing) it is only one particular gender that sleeps with the children? I’d like to fully blame them but somewhere someone will say it was their mothers, sisters, aunties, wife’s fault that they did it.

I like it when we aren’t caught (and surprised)... the other day I wrote that cows only have to give birth once to keep the milk going. Complete rubbish but it was just that I was thinking about humans at the time. Bit of a duh moment but no one noticed. :P

No Jewerly I did get it wrong, had no intention of saying its ok for 13 year olds.
Slut walk, well a cop in another country said some women[ was I think talking about rape victims] should not dress like Sluts.
It started a world wide slut march.
Lets be honest about sex, we all activly at some stage in our life hunt it, if not every hour.
Having once, long ago, lived in the western suburbs of Sydney I am aware people get raped, men and boys too, not nearly as much.
Half wits often blame the victim,and those who committed the crimes are weak sons and daughters of unwed parents.
Now I wade in to trouble and deep waters.
Some females as is true of males, are Sluts.
And like it or not some dress to tell the world.
I would rarely use the word,but trying to change its known use is like trying to ban sex.
Sex is available if you look but humanity just can not help its self, we make it look dirty.
Some lie about how much some lie about too little but we mostly lie about sex.

I know full well that a few women, in the West, ran factories during the war but that doesn't alter the fact that no woman can ever equal a man for the amount produced during a shift on lathes, milling machines or large drills. They are just not built for it.

Much exploitation of women in western society could not happen if women didn't want it to happen. It is not men's fault that so many women feel that they must go to ridiculous lengths to attract men. The exploiters that run the cosmetics industry and the fashon industry depend on the gullability of women for their exorbitant profits; then there is the diet industry and the fad foods . . .

Women are their own worst enemies.

"Women are their own worst enemies.......Is Mise..I've heard enough bull on OLO in this thread, to be shoving it up for the next three months:) However its what Women are taught from birth....that's whats screwing them up later on in life begins, and Women know this, and they do Nothing.

Are "Women are their own worst enemies" well, if the shoe fits:) and I think they are to. At least you can say whats on your mind, and your facts stay......thank-you.

I think toddlers in tiara's is the best place to start the drumming down process's, don't you think.

Oh...hang-on....I heard the sounds of marching females with very big ballsjheeuvx.........I mean boots coming fast:0

Quick! everyone hide...:)

Sometimes my breasts get in the way, DAM!

Maybe marching is not for me:)

I hear the Army's the best place to start...lol...Oh dear:)

LEA

Last 2 posts take a swing that probably kills the thread.
So be it not enough wanted to continue.
QL having seem much of you in print this morning, some interesting comments.
More unfortunately a bit off.
May I,understand the right reaction followed by most, is to ignore, but well why?
Do you post while drinking.
Do you ever read your posts again the next day.
Have you noticed we are not getting as many new threads as usual?
Thanks to all those who posted lets hope one day we look again at the life some women live.

Bellybabe:”Slut walk, well a cop in another country said some women[ was I think talking about rape victims] should not dress like Sluts.
It started a world wide slut march.”

I still haven’t checked it out. So they didn’t like being told how to dress or not to dress slutty so they are marching in support of dressing like sluts or against being called sluts when they dress like sluts? Yes it is victim blaming but I do believe occasionally the victim added to their own victimising.

I’ve known a few sluts and maybe some sex addicts and some young things that thought they had some power in the world by making men want them sexually. All a bit sad really. Now and again you meet someone who just really enjoys sex and isn’t playing any other game, but it isn’t often.

ISMise:”I know full well that a few women, in the West, ran factories during the war but that doesn't alter the fact that no woman can ever equal a man for the amount produced during a shift on lathes, milling machines or large drills. They are just not built for it.”

Yeah but SOME are and SOME men arn’t either. I’ve found those heavy jobs you build up too and get stronger and faster after a little time no matter the gender.

IsMise:”Much exploitation of women in western society could not happen if women didn't want it to happen.”

True that. But this thread was talking about India – or China – might have been both.

Leap:”I think toddlers in tiara's is the best place to start the drumming down process's, don't you think.”

Prizes for looking the cutest, or being the fastest, strongest, or even the smartest. Weird stuff but I don’t know how we condemn one without slapping them all down.

There’s little boys pageants too, spotted one on tv not long ago. They were so cute. :)

Oh lightness up belly, and No I only drink tea. Yes Jewely, I've seen the little boys pageants and I cant say I agree with the mental picture its paints. However what parents do with there children is their business and how they turn out will exclusively on there heads.

Women in general DO sometimes get the short end of the stick at times, maybe better judgment in some situations may help deal with a male dominated world.

LEA

Yep, Jewls. I always marvel how it's considered shallow to be obsessed with looks, but intelligence is somehow some kind of a virtue. They're both natural. Neither require any work.

So, if you're upset about child beauty pageants, you should also be upset about child chess masters. Or our latest 15yo Aussie swimming sensation.

It's almost as if people think a life dedicated to beauty is obscene, but sport or acedemia is somehow all ok?

What we really should be upset about is that beautiful young boys don't get the same opportunity to excel based on their looks as beautiful girls do. If only I'd had the opportunity and a supportive parent and a Little Mr World infrastructure, I could have excelled. For the life of me I cant understand how feminists think beauty pageants represent female disadvantage. It's men that are excluded.

So the ugly girls miss out, and beautiful one's their looks are worth less and less after they hit mid 20s. But so to for your average NRL player; The weedy kids miss out, and the athletic ones are worth less and less as they age.

Well all I can say leap is I certainly don't dominate the world and I really don't think other guys speak or act on behalf of me. In fact, they always stop and let pretty girls in before me in queues.

I find it so fascinating that women worked in factories. Not.

I know I have the most nimble fingers, more nimble on a computer mouse than any woman could dare to attempt to compete with me. I also bet women wouldn't dare to do what dangerous things I do all day like constantly attending meetings without even so much as a pen let alone any kind of paper. Those chicks always have to bring a clipboard and a bloody pencil case full of highlighters, I'm so much braver and mightier then them.

Houie,
Beer was invented so the ugly girls don't miss out.

'The girls all get prettier at closing time'

ARE WOMEN EQUAL

Of course they are. The question should be "are women treated equally" the answer to this is NO.

Throughout this beautiful world many women are equal but certainly not all. We see up to 10,000 girls a DAY in islamic countries suffer the disgusting practice of female circumcision or genital mutilation as it should be referred to. if you have not read articles on this then search in Google and you will be alarmed to say the least.

Thats 3,000,000 women (mainly girls) each year. As a middle aged male I am circumcised but made the decision not to circumcise my boys. There were valid reasons centuries ago but not Today.

Female circumcision is nothing more than a disgusting religious excercise to force these women to "remain a virgin" until the day of their marriage. Next point these then mutilated girls can be given in marriage as young as Six and the husband is able to "Force himself upon these young girls when he choses"

This same husband may have Four wives wheras the wives are only allowed one husband. These husbands can also get a 24 hour wedding licence to spend time with their "new" bride. After 24 hours the "marriage" is anulled automatically.

ARE WOMEN EQUAL

Christian Ross,
I have been trying for years to get prosecution action on FGM here as almost 2 decades of education has failed.

After this latest Indonesian cattle slaughter blow up, i wonder if i could get 4 corners interested in filming the event taking place and its consequences.

Maybe that will gain some action.

Both those posts bring me to think.
I am aware of the practice hate it.
And cringe at the stupidity of our need to be nice to those carrying these practices out.
PC and a softness toward cultural differences, at the expense of our culture, is alive.
Women are not equal never have been.
We, some of us, made light of child sex slavery child murders abortions because of sex.
We need to take a long look at our selves.
Minor issue but makes a comment on attitudes to women.
In the Senate today, a silly old man made an insulting cat meow at Penny Wong.
IF she had done that to him?

Dear Belly,

Penny Wong can take care of herself. The guy meowing - only made a fool of himself. As someone once said - "A Woman who seeks to be equal with men, lacks ambition."

Had a chuckle Lexi.
Will refrain from Blond jokes.

Penny has the bloke hands down if the family dog leaves home the average IQ there will be 90.
Lucky he has bright children!

Belly,
You ask if women are equal, not here let alone India where your example of female infanticide came from.

I understand your horror at the figures relating to India but you should understand why I agreed with Jewely when she said we need to do more here first.

Just a couple of years ago i wrote to the NSW Minister for Health, Yes a Labor Minister, female too, asking why no one had ever been charged with any offence relating to FGM of little girls. Note it is against the law and evidence is available through our hospitals.

The reply I got was "there are cultural considerations"

Hell, they are cutting pieces of flesh off little girls, without even a local anesthetic, and we are concerned about their culture! Done on a kitchen table.

No wonder some end up in hospital with shock, bleeding and infection.

I put it to you that it is only the professional expertise of our medical people that have prevented deaths so far. That may not last forever.

My concern now is that because it has been going on for so long without action, that the pro FGM advocates will start to argue that, as we do not really object, FGM should be decriminalised.

However as we now have a new state government I will try again and see if I can get some action on this barbaric practice.

Pity no one, or few, seems interested.

Banjo much to like about you, your torment at this pleases me.
No way around this, take a side step to explain me to you.
I have some fine documents praising me for my life of activism.
Regard most as just words.
But one stands out it tells my members I am the best union delegate the giver ever knew.
But that I have weird views.
Yes it is true but not me,, some passengers in my party's bus have weird views.
They infest the ALP fear of the GREENS gives them air.
I can tell you, about one in five ALP ministers post Bob Carr in NSW are of any use.
This horrible thing we speak of is propped up by gutlessness fear of cultural problems we who claim to offer a better life ABANDON these females.
I under stand the act, also girls wed here before teen age years I know honor killings will take place here too.
We act without Morals in letting it take place.
PC is a method of the minority controlling the majority, if given the chance to vote on this we would see far less than ten percent agree with it.
We unhappily are never going to get that chance.

"ISMise:”I know full well that a few women, in the West, ran factories during the war but that doesn't alter the fact that no woman can ever equal a man for the amount produced during a shift on lathes, milling machines or large drills. They are just not built for it.”

Yeah but SOME are and SOME men arn’t either. I’ve found those heavy jobs you build up too and get stronger and faster after a little time no matter the gender"

It's got nothing to do with strength, operating these types of machines requires skill, that's all.
The reason that a woman whose skill equals, or even slightly exceeds, that of a man on the same machine will never produce the same amount of work in a given time, is that the man can work continuously through a shift without any minor toilet breaks, because he can urinate easily into the suds (Coolant) tray whereas the woman can't.
It's called 'Penis Advantage'.

I hereby now apologise for being flippant.

Is Mise,

You have just confirmed my suspicions that modern industrial society comprehensively demeans human potential.

While I understand you were being flippant, if that is your measure of male superiority, one wonders what the future holds for such an intelligent species.

Not sure if is mise is being flippant or foolish, but do not judge men on those posts.
I could fill the page with story of bad behavior of bothy sex's.
Right now have a little Princess inflicted on me.
Fairly good looking but in control, her man is a sex slave and nothing more her manners never existed.
BUT that is true of both sex's so lets not divide.
As a construction official I saw women drive the biggest plant and do it well.
Do we need to ignore the fact women are dieing/being killed/ raped every day.
Who wants to express unhappiness about young Egyptian women, taken it to custody for being part of demonstrations for democracy.
Have tests conducted to see if the are virgins?
We should not let a marginal person marginalize a conversation about how women in half the world are treated.

Yes Belly, “Do we truly care about the dreadful life some women lead is equality just a word”

“Equality” is just a word

“Equality” is a deceptive word because do-gooders have been using it to give ordinary folk a guilt trip over every thing and any thing

As for the plight of women in India – what do you expect me to do about it?

Maybe I should support a trade embargo against Indian goods ?

I know I want a telephone embargo against those annoying Indian telemarketers immediately.

I do not control the rest of the world… some folk might be tempted to ask me but their voice will be drowned out by those who have never heard of me

Nothing anyone can do will turn the bad into the good

We are all genetically unique which means we all start from a state of inequality

Like a famous politician once said

"When all the objectives of government include the achievement of equality - other than equality before the law - that government poses a threat to liberty."

So the pursuit of “equality” is a complete load of bunkum – it is the pursuit of the chronically depressed and depressing, attempting to impose the source of their malady on others.

My resolve is simple

Be a good person, mix with similar and leave the teeming masses to sort out their feeble existence the they can because for one sure thing

Nothing you or I can say or do will change them or protect them from their fate or themselves.

Houel:”It's almost as if people think a life dedicated to beauty is obscene, but sport or acedemia is somehow all ok?”

I don’t think sports is okay. Or dog and cat shows or horse racing or – well lots of stuff seems really silly to me. Better add Live Exports to that.

Banjo:”The girls all get prettier at closing time'

Yeah the girls seem to believe it as well. I wonder what ridding the world of alcohol would do to the birth rate worldwide.

Banjo the thing about FGM... along the same lines why do we have 34,000 children in foster care and not 34,000+ abusers charged with an offence against a child?

IsMise:”It's called 'Penis Advantage'.”

Ahh... now I understand Penis Envy.

Col:”So the pursuit of “equality” is a complete load of bunkum – it is the pursuit of the chronically depressed and depressing, attempting to impose the source of their malady on others.”

Gosh. And lovely to see you. I guess it is the “equality before the law” that is important and that the law is being enforced. I doubt there is anything I can do about an overseas problem either which is why I’d prefer to start at home. Clean up my own backyard as it were.

Equality before the Law is the only equality that matters.

Physical in-equality is taken for granted as is separation in sport. We never hear of women athletes demanding that they be allowed to compete directly with men and this applies even when physical stamina has no advantage at all.

On Female Genital Mutilation: hom many of you know of the birth complications that this can and does lead to?
The natural elasticity of the birth opening is seriously reduced in the more extreme forms of mutilation and the resultant scar tissue leads to tearing of the skin and flesh or, if medical intervention is possible, to relief cuts having to be made, which lead to a further reduction in elasticity and more complication at subsequent births.

I can well imagine anyone's ire at this practice and their disgust that it happens in our country and moreso that it is apparently condoned by politicians afraid of a vote loss.
I have seen a friend, a senior nurse, reduced to seething rage after attending the delivery of a mutilation victim, and affected to the extent that she could not talk about it, even though well aware of the therapeutic value of talking over problems of this type.

Jewerly you probably have come across our Col.
He likes to be a bit rude if he gets the chance.
Is maybe an Englishman and on record as revering a woman.
Silly old bag she was too.
Margret thatcher.
Col has adopted the turn away or bury your head in the sand stuff.
Three wise Monkeys did that refuse to see to hear or talk about wrong.
Most importantly Col can be of use, he reminds us just how some think.
Here in his post/rant he says bugger the world I am ok.
And just maybe he is saying keep them bare foot and pregnant.
Men do not know how to express the roll women should have.
ME TOO far be it for me to say I do but now a confirmed bachelor I think I would do a better job than some.
Some Alpha males away from home have their own monogrammed aprons at home.
What color is yours Col.

Col,
Good to see your posts again.

Jewely,
Your info about 34000 kids in foster care certainly reinforces your view that we have much to do here. One wonders how this could be, when I have often noticed articles about DOCS not acting soon enough to prevent kids being harmed. No doubt you have seen kids with horrible infections and in state of utter neglect and abuse.

I wish you had not told us of the figure as it makes my concern about little girls having FGM seem insignificant. But rather than give up lobbying I see that FGM as a deliberate cruel act done purely for cultural reasons. Gutless politicians compromising our culture for the sake of some ethnic votes, and little girls suffer.

Like the kids that you see, the politicians have no excuse for not upholding the laws that they passed.

ISMise:”Physical in-equality is taken for granted as is separation in sport. We never hear of women athletes demanding that they be allowed to compete directly with men and this applies even when physical stamina has no advantage at all.”

Mostly gymnastics was my thing and no, no male could compete. I will however never again play hockey against a boys team, they are taught to hurt. I didn’t realise until I was told recently how they teach footy here to boys – grab and twist nipples as well as other little painful tricks – hurt them as it puts them off balance or something.

“I have seen a friend, a senior nurse, reduced to seething rage after attending the delivery of a mutilation victim, and affected to the extent that she could not talk about it, even though well aware of the therapeutic value of talking over problems of this type.”

I bet, I felt sick recently seeing what the soldiers do to the women in the congo. I think it is to demoralise communities that they mutilate the females in that situation. On the other hand does this mean women are more valued in the Congo for them to be used as a weapon?

Bellybabe:”Jewerly you probably have come across our Col.”

I have Belly and the only thing that used to buffer me from being distressed when he often slapped me down was that it took so long to look all the words up to find out what he had said to me. Each message was a learning experience.

“Here in his post/rant he says bugger the world I am ok.”

True and I’m usually okay with that as long as those who say it do no further harm. He probably looks after his own very well, now if everyone would do that....

MSE,
I, for one, am aware of the ongoing problems as a consequence of FGM.

Thank you for giving the matter some oxygen. The more people know the better.

Hey Banjo, FGM is unlike most abuses as it is a permanent disability in most circumstances? The female cannot usually ever achieve orgasm? I could well be wrong, I know little about the subject.

It would certainly be added to any query I had about why we so rarely charge adults for abuse of children. I’d consider FGM one of the most significant physical abuses out of the growing list of abuse definitions.

This not seeing the law to be done devalues all the young victims.

“...the politicians have no excuse for not upholding the laws that they passed.”

And yet they are not upheld and I’ve not seen any explanation demanded. Is that why they have enquires and commissions? Is that the only way to get answers or something but by then the govt that did it has moved on?

I think Julie that is the case.
Kids have this in flicked on them so they will not enjoy sex or stray.
Long ago I became convinced these less than men want total control because the can not keep women without collars and chains.
Banjo some links would help some just are not aware of this issue.
Side again, bit playful myself BUT an idiot at a WA football game held up a sign saying this you can shag my wife, named star footballer,now tell me why.
Feisty girls around here would rightly smack me silly for that.

I dunno about FGM. What happened to moral relativity? Do we use it selectively?

It seems to me there is a certain element of society, let's say Belly's lot, who constantly go on about cultural sensitivity and cultural identity, embracing multiculturalism etc.

Except, if there is part of the culture they don't like, then they say 'oh but not those bits'.

Well, I reckon its a job lot. Either you accept and tolerate the culture as a whole, or not at all. Anything else is hypocritical and inauthentic.

So, when you ask other cultures to stop mutilating their children, you're really asking for assimilation. Not multiculturalism. Lets call a spade a spade.

I don't know the proportion of men walking around without a foreskin, and although obviously less severe than FGM, it's in the same category. So the Jews are just as bad.

It originated from religious ritual, with a more modern justification, and I dare say anaesthetic is considered unnecessary by some.

So, if you want your multiculturalism, moral relativism, any of that gear, you MUST be pro-FGM, pro circumcision, pro chicken sacrifice rituals. There is no way around it. We must adhere to the sanctity and authenticity of cultural norms of all cultures:-)

Houlie you can do better yes I am a Labrat ask you know who.
But voting Labor or Liberal does not turn us in to one of them, meaning any group like those you put me in.
And your generalization is more likely to fit the greens but would very much fit some in any party.
As rude as it can be to be honest I insist on it here.
I thing every religion is about control.
See no reason to think the one we are skipping around here is any different if not the worst.
And that control is the reason for this mutilation.
In other threads we see very real, and very justified concerns about cruelty to cattle.
Here some, more than one, make lite of females being sold as children for sex mutilated killed because of their sex and now you think concerns Banjo aired may be are not our right to be concerned about?
Baffled bloke!

From Wikipedia:
"Medical consequenceAmong practising cultures, FGC is most commonly performed between the ages of four and eight, but can take place at any age from infancy to adolescence. Prohibition has led to FGC going underground, at times with people who have had no medical training performing the cutting without anesthetic, sterilization, or the use of proper medical instruments. The procedure can lead to death through shock from excessive bleeding. The failure to use sterile medical instruments may lead to infections.

Other serious long term health effects are also common. These include urinary and reproductive tract infections, caused by obstructed flow of urine and menstrual blood, various forms of scarring and infertility. Epidermal inclusion cysts may form and expand, particularly in procedures affecting the clitoris. These cysts can grow over time and can become infected, requiring medical attention such as drainage.[40] The first episode of sexual intercourse will often be extremely painful for infibulated women, who will need the labia majora to be opened, to allow their partner access to the vagina. This second cut, sometimes performed by the partner with a knife, can cause other complications to arise.

A June 2006 study by the WHO has cast doubt on the safety of genital cutting of any kind.[28] This study was conducted on a cohort of 28,393 women attending delivery wards at 28 obstetric centers in areas of Burkina Faso, Ghana, Kenya, Senegal and The Sudan. A high proportion of these mothers had undergone FGC. According to the WHO criteria, all types of FGC were found to pose an increased risk of death to the baby (15% for Type I, 32% for Type II, and 55% for Type III). Mothers with FGC Type III were also found to be 30% more at risk for cesarean sections and had a 70% increase in postpartum hemorrhage compared to women without FGC. Estimating from these results, and doing a rough population estimate of mothers in Africa with FGC, an additional 10 to 20 per thousand babies in Africa die during delivery as a result of the mothers having undergone genital cutting.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Yesterday Via goggle news USA I read the New York times.
That hunger to learn still drives me.
Shame it did not at school.
However I followed a link she is only ten and may be sold as a prostitute.
It told as story of a young girl said to be on the way to an education and a future , but in grave danger, perhaps on the way, to bing sold.
By her grand father who sold her mother into sexual slavery as a child.
1.8 million children it said EVERY YEAR are sold this way.
India soon to be maybe the worlds first or second economic leader is said to be the worlds worst, that number is just for them.
I am wondering just why do we have a United Nations,why so many Gods, but we can not stop this happening.
Why we fight wars for freedom but never for human rights.
Why some made a joke out of this thread.
I would give up my freedoms to see a better world, even the dreaded new world order if it preserved these children's rights to be kids.
So sad we care more for the cattle in Indonesia than little girls in India.

Belly,
Why am I so cynical about politicians and parties?

Have a look at the countries represented on the UNHCR. Thats a joke.

The only thing the UN is good at is getting rid of lots of money on their own bureacracy. Our contribution alone is millions.

Agree with all that Banjo FIFA and the UN are closely related it seems.
I no party it seems is much other than being re elected worth while.
I blame us for that, we dump on them, politicians ,but not nearly hard enough.
Just maybe a dictatorship is the answer, never thought I would say that!
This I think is true.
Really
The west as we know it is dieing,we are in my view dieing.
We do not truly know how lucky we are and how hard we some times need to defend our selves from.
OURSELVES
The United Nations should not let Russia/ China/America/ Germany Veto any human rights issue draw up a standard set of rights and police it.
War need not be the out come but if it is so be it humanity is equal or nothing.