Poirot,

Re your posts of Friday, 13 May 2011 6:37:18 PM & Friday, 13 May 2011 10:35:54 PM

As you say, you are not an expert on South Africa. Neither is Naomi Klein.

These are simply the excuses Leftie apologists for an appalling government make to excuse the failure of their heroes. It's the sort of BS put it by Lefties in the 1930s to excuse Stalin's brutality.

The real answer is much more mundane than a White plot. It's a combination of graft on what I can only call an African scale and ineptitude. There is also a fair amount of violence directed aganst people who dissent from the ANC party line.

But in the end people will believe what they want to believe. No amount of evidence could convince a creationist of the reality of evolution and no amount of evidence can convince an old anti-Apartheid fighter that the successor government may be as bad as its predecessor. it would mean admitting that they've wasted so much passion and energy over so many years. Few people are able to write off such a huge emtional investment.

The classic case is Robert Mugabe. He was a bad man from the day he took office. But it was not until the previous generation of Western anti-Ian Smith crusaders had retired that it was permissible to say this in public. They simply could not admit to themselves that they had helped put such an evil man in office. (Of course they were flattering themselves. Vorster pulled the plug on Smith).

So it goes.

Steven,

I agree that Mugabe is a bad man and a bad leader and, no doubt, in South Africs's case, the ANC leadership is responsible to some extent for some of its own predicament.

But apologists for Western institutions like the IMF and The World Bank, etc. never admit the role these entities play in stymieing improved community outcomes.
Check out any country experiencing an economic or physical set-back these days, and you'll find the World Bank is on the ground in no time flapping its cheque book about and doing deals to privatise the supply of previously commonly held assets and resources - the profits of which, usually flow in a one way direction to the rich industrial nations.

http://www.globalenvision.org/library/23/1524
(although, I'm sure none of you will bother to read it)

Poirot,

I am not an apologist for the IMF or the World Bank. On the contrary I have frequently advocated the abolition of both.

However neither institution can be held responsible for the gargantuan scale government corruption and INEPTITUDE in South Africa.

I refer you to the corruptions perception index for 2010 published by Transparency International

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results

South Africa ranks 54 along with Kuwait. This is certainly no improvement on its ranking during Apartheid.

However this ranking does not capture the full story. Some governments are corrupt but competent. The ANC government is ineptitutde personified.

BTW Naomi Klein's piece on de Klerk pulling the wool over the eyes of the ANC is pure BS. It assumes a degree of naivite on the part of the ANC which was certainly not in evidence during the negotiations.

All members of the ANC negotiating team were sharp operators and had excellent advisers. It was definitely NOT a case of wiley Whites deceiving poor, ignorant Blacks.

I suggest that Klein's piece and your willingness to accept it demonstrates a certain degree of racism. You too easily buy into the stereotype of poor ignorant Blacks being cheated by smart Whites.

It wasn't like that.

Poirot

Well, I doubt Steven will read the link you thoughtfully provided - he needs to believe that everything corporate is good.

Loved this little snippet from the link:

" The IMF and World Bank are largely controlled and owned by the development nations such as USA, Germany, UK, Japan, amongst others. The US for example controls 17 to 18% of the voting right at the IMF. When an 85% majority is required for a decision, the US effectively has veto power at the IMF. In addition, the World Bank is 51% funded by the US treasury."

As Steven himself states: >> But in the end people will believe what they want to believe. <<

Well done Steven for demonstrating the truth of which you write.

Steven

No one's hands are clean in any of this. Yes, Mugabe IS corrupt and so is the IMF - which you now claim you would liked to see disbanded - nice back track there.

Another snippet

" Under a plane devised mechanism the World Bank and the IMF loan money in return for the structural adjustment of their economies. This means that economic direction of each country would be planned, monitored, and controlled in Washington. For instance, the World Bank assistance for helping a poor country involves, country by country investigations with a meeting of begging-Finance Ministers who are handed a restructuring agreement pre-drafted for voluntary signature.

According to James Sackey, former World Bank Country Representative in Sierra Leone, these instructions include privatizations, trade liberalization, high interest rates etc. Trade liberalization for under-developed economies could have some serious attendant effects.

Trade liberalization can lead to dumping of cheap and substandard products from outside. This undermines local industries that produce or intend to produce the same products."

interesting link

lets join two dots
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14938

Another very important factor
is the devaluation of currencies
which is supposed to increase self sufficiency by making imported products more expensive and African exports cheaper.

Since most African countries do not produce these products, it is not possible to replace them with locally produced ones.

On the other hand, most of the countries that buy African products have set certain amounts on how much can be imported or have fixed prices in foreign currencies to shelter their own products,

even when they become cheaper in local currencies,
do not necessarily gain new outside markets*...or earn more foreign exchange*...

the game is rigged

look at libia..[this dictraiter
paid all the people a form of dole
free education etc

he wanted to..form HIS OWN BANK
but imf dont want that

thats then the poop hit the fan

NATO Rattles Gadhafi's Home Base
Wall Street Journal
NATO airstrikes struck Gadhafi's compound in Tripoli and three other sites, hours after the Libyan leader was shown on state TV.

look at the money links
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/13/business/global/13iht-imf13.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/05/imf-warns-eu-debt-crisis-may-still.html
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/05/report-states-nickel-and-dime.html
they need to steal and impoverish..
those who cant fight back

"Civilization and anarchy
are only seven meals apart."
--..Spanish Proverb
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/may/12/food-waste-fao-report-security-poor
http://dailybail.com/home/world-food-price-index-holds-steady-at-historic-highs-chart.html
http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/12/un-calls-for-population-control-as-global-birthrates-decline/

see the joke
photoshop[was the reason]..for bin larden destraction
[it was photoshopped][the full birthcetrificate]..

so we got binlarden shoped
and still doing his destractions[for the cia]

http://www.freewilliamsburg.com/citing-modesty-concerns-hipster-website-removes-sexually-suggestive-male-images-from-sit-room-photo/
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/porn-found-osama-bin-laden-evidence-trove/comments?type=story&id=13599025
http://current.com/news/93219687_cia-created-fake-drunken-osama-bin-laden-homosexual-peodophile-video.htm

http://uruknet.com/?p=m77643&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14938