12 dead in Egypt as Christians and Muslims clash

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/12-dead-in-egypt-as-christians-and-muslims-clash/2011/05/08/AFFp1pRG_story.html

>>CAIRO — Clashes between Muslims and Coptic Christians in a Cairo suburb left 12 people dead, dozens wounded and a church charred in one of the most serious outbreaks of violence Egypt’s interim rulers have faced since taking power in February.

[…]

Salafists, a faction of ultraconservative Muslims, have become increasingly visible in recent months. Christians accuse Salafists of seeking to boost their standing ahead of elections, scheduled for this fall, by fomenting religious tension.>>

And:

Egypt: the two women at the centre of the clashes

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8501280/Egypt-the-two-women-at-the-centre-of-the-clashes.html

>>At the time of Mr Mubarak's overthrow, many younger liberals hoped that Egypt's new constitution would be secular. Instead, provisions stating that Egyptian law should be based on Sharia, with rights also for the Christian minority, were left untouched.

This promises to exacerbate the conflict between Muslims and Christians in sensitive areas. Rules against intermarriage underlay many local arguments, often internecine, and frequently exacerbated by the growing role of radical Salafi groups, when young people of different religion are found to be dating.>>

Hopes for an "Arab Spring" may have been premature.

I very much doubt the murdering of Christians is the forerunner to an Islamic country.
Show me, please do, one Muslim country that does not have at least a few bigots in it.
Many Christians, and for that matter Muslims, are murdered by fanatics in many country's.
India has seen Christians burnt to death.
Indonesia too has seen such.
In the end humanity must take responsibility for holding on to fables and Gods in the name of fear and superstition.
Such murders are too often avoidable, when EVERY religion values the right to be different, to worship a different God or no God at all.

dont know

are we witnessing the birth of
a single state in palistein?

guess we wont ever know
the news is so busy with the other stuff
its bud-get time..so dont expect to hear..of either

dont know why yiour brief specificlly mentioned the 'islamic' tag
far as i can tell..

the brother hood says thats not on..[the whole islamaphobic destractions]

sharia has become perverted with bin/lid..larden..et'al
and the cia/mossad destractions..bin laden
taking us away..from the 'other stuff'

possably much more important
than ' destractions'....but media
so loves its latest/destaction..too much
for much more to be heard on your speculation's
at least via the media

Belly,

If and when the Egyptians get around to holding free and fair elections we'll learn whether we're dealing with "a few bigots" or whether the Salfis represent the majority sentiment.

Time will tell.

Dear Belly,

Hold on a minute mate. The report indicated more Muslims died in the clash than Christians. Further the reason for the hostilities was the battered wives of Coptic priests converting to Islam to take advantage of far more lenient divorce laws then finding themselves being spirited off by the Christians to a monastery.

I think a closer look at the Coptics might help inform the situation not withstanding their persecution within Egypt.

Hi csteele

As I said the best gauge of Egyptian sentiment would be a free and fair election. I’m prepared to wait for the outcome of such an election - assuming it is permitted to happen.

That being said I’ll venture a forecast.

The existing military rulers will succeed in co-opting a segment of the Muslim Brotherhood and / or other “Islamist” factions. The pay-off will be a share of the spoils and a modest degree of “sharianisation”. It will be unpleasant for infidels but somewhere short of an outright Islamic Republic.

Thereafter I expect to see “sharia-creep” until Egypt resembles an Islamic Republic in all but name. This process was already under way during the Mubarrak regime. As ever in these cases allowance will be made for the urban elite to enjoy a quasi-Western lifestyle. (cf Pakistan).

Most uprisings start of with high ideals but end up making a bad situation worse. Propaganda from the usual sources about an "Arab spring" notwithstanding I cannot see any reason to suppose the Egyptian one will break the mold?

Dear Steven,

Thanks for the links and this thread. It goes to show that absolutism is far from dead. Indeed, it rules the minds of a great number of people in the world today, most dangerously so in the Muslim world (and in the incipient American theocracy - see Kevin Phillips's book of that name). Such absolutism nearly always results from strong religious faith, and it constitues a major reason for suggesting that religion can be a force for evil in the world.

Belly writes

'In the end humanity must take responsibility for holding on to fables and Gods in the name of fear and superstition.'

No in the end humanity has no right to judge that these murderous Islamics are doing wrong. It is only their opinion. Humanity without the living God has no basis for any morality. We see that being worked out by Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, abortionist and numerous others that rejected the fact that they were and are acountable to God.

More reading and a very good interview on the ABC is interesting.
I seem to have got it partly wrong.
Seems likely the Army is sitting on its hands, even promoting some trouble.
A very real chance exists they want it to get bad enough for them to seemingly save the country.
Crack down,take total control and keep it.
Csteele I concede both groups are often wrong, no Muslim extremist group is more so than this one however.
Unsurprised at your stance, fact remains without any God we would not have to fear the future of this country.
I am,no way around it, as always,amused by your fears concerns and defense radical groups.

we all got our own theories

i figure that the people are learning to tell truth from lie
and liars wil be held to account

lets face it
the many troops
outnumber the orificer class

see how the vidio [obominations latest 'hit'
has ben proven WRONG...by the people
who know the landlord
ISNT obama..[nor osama]

to wit the vidio
isnt osama bin lid
but*
...*is his landlord

Osama Bin Laden:..[tape]..
lanlord fraud..
Pakistan's scepticism over videos

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13329078

The BBC managed to find someone
who identified the old guy..*in the video

LOL...he turns out to be...*the landlord*!
http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20110504/109544.shtml
pay the rent...lol
http://yayacanada.blogspot.com/2011/05/yo-conform-or-die.html
blah blah ha ha
http://mycatbirdseat.com/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-%e2%80%93-the-fight-over-pulling-the-trigger/
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/05/60-minutes-of-deception-from-obama.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13329078
http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=45852&Cat=6&dt=5/9/2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZjKKUEHTKk&feature=player_embedded#at=71

and so it begins
http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/08/so-it-begins-sen-charles-schumer-proposes-increased-security-and-no-fly-list-for-amtrak-trains/

there comes a time..that leaders must
either lead for their people
or be bannished

those who dont heed the egsample
well their time..too will come...!

There's also an argument these 'clashes' are symptomatic of a certain sense of 'lawlessness' from the people involved as a result of the overthrow of government.

The USA/Israel created the despot Mubarak but Mubarak had not the stomach to attack Iran.Hence Mubarak had to go.Currently the neo-cons are trying their best to install a new despot who will do their bidding.Hopefully the people of Egypt have wised up.

there comes a time..that leaders must
either lead for their people
or be bannished

Now your talking...OUG.

I think the 21 century is that time.

Either you can do the job, or get out!

And dont forget birth control:) for all:)

Peace and all that.

LEAP

Egypt Christians protest in Cairo after church attack

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13331628

(Shows video of Al Azraa Church on fire)

>>Christians in the Egyptian capital, Cairo, are holding a protest vigil near Tahrir Square following an attack on two churches in which 12 people died.

[…]

Egypt's army says more than 190 people detained after the violence will face military trials.

The ruling Supreme Council of the Armed Forces called the move a "deterrent" against further violence.

[…]

Saturday's violence started after several hundred conservative Salafist Muslims gathered outside the Coptic Saint Mena Church in Cairo's Imbaba district.

[…]

Christian leaders have declared three days of mourning for those who died in Saturday's violence.

[…]

Military authorities are promising tougher measures against anyone who attacks a place of worship, but such promise have been made before, to little effect, says our correspondent.

[…]

Hard-line Salafi Muslim groups were rarely seen in the days of Mubarak, but now they are now able to mount aggressive demonstrations against perceived threats to Islam, straining community relations, our

[…]

During the protests in Cairo, many Christians and Muslims had protested alongside each other and protected each other during prayer times.

But in March, 13 people died in sectarian clashes in another neighbourhood. Last month, demonstrators in the southern city of Qena cut all transport links with Cairo for a week in protest over the appointment of a Christian governor.>>

And also:

Salafist groups find footing in Egypt after revolution

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12985619

>>While Western governments have long worried about Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptians are more concerned about the rise of Salafist groups, which have been blamed for a series of violent incidents in rural areas. .>>

Looks like the Egyptians are doomed to live in "interesting times" at least for a while.

Oh I don't know Stevenlmeyer, if two warring Christian groups (Catholic and Protestant) can maintain a 'war' for so long in Northern Ireland, then we can assume that the warring activities of two conflicting religions have no chance of ever finishing at all!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1ZLXbKeL2U&feature=related

I dont Think I need to say any-else JOE:) There are good religious people Joe, Sue, and most that know is true.

So! What about those that like to be a prick? What do we do with them?

I love a peaceful and sustainable world, don't you:) Well I do.

Why hasn't anyone thought of the worlds biggest BBQ?

Is it that smeary, you cant attend?

LEAP)

Steven I support your last post and every point you highlight in it.
And in fact some of those points support my report that the Army is seemingly not quite doing the right thing,in a timely manner.
And the poison relationship between this extremely radical group, and Coptic Christians,far from our view of Christianity,colors the issue.
Some seem intent on drifting your subject in to fantasy land.
But as has been the case in other threads you started about this part of the world, we may see great change.
Good or bad,but any day an event may rock this part of the world.
OFF subject, may I remind some,in post after post as is your right you tell us of lies by the west.
Then claim, unfortunately, we who disagree are not just wrong, but much more.
Any mirrors at your place?
Truly! please show more respect for views other than your own please

belly laugh/quote..""Good or bad,...
but any day...an event
may rock this part of the world.""

yes lucky..we dogged a bullit
when the stockmarket melted/down
[burst its bvubble]..yet the media
didnt wisper...a suggestion of it[bubble]

but luckilly conspiricy watch-dogs..like me
had been blogging..the pm and treasuror...about it
and managed to head-off..the worst

sadly they did much..too wrong
but capitalising the poor..worked a treat
[i had told them..top down bailouts dont work]

i reminded them..that de-value of our main asset[home]
would mean people having to pump up
their savings..so as to not loose it

or other-wise..find their equity
disavailing them..of credit facilities

meaning they stop consuming/homeless/etc

but like anything
there are some..who do
others..who talk

""OFF subject,may I remind some,
in post after post..as is your right
you tell us..*of lies..by the west."""

mate im not
the one telling lies

im pointing..to where
their lies..are Too darn obvious

only a zealot would deney
the general publicly..percieved/truth...
..*is mainly spin*

""Then claim,unfortunately,
we who disagree are not just wrong,..but much more."""

belly your right...!

""Any mirrors at your place?""
mate i have put..im wrong..in writing
at the posts..where i was wrong..
as i found out..i was wrong
[yet more often..sadly right]

as soon as i found-out..greehouse gasses
means more than..carbon/dioxide..i fessed up

as soon as i found..global warming/cooling/change
TO BE A SCAM..i fessed up..

[andrew/bolt..turned out to be right]

as soon as i realised
evolution was a scam
i fessed up

as soon as i found the lies
govt..made into the parlement record
i quoted it...[explained how i got it wrong
that 31 billion sokning/*social cost..
DONT MEAN MEDICAL COST]..[800 million]

yet by lie
we still got..the smokers tax
[nbn/power increases/water charges/service charges/no digetal/tv]

""Truly!
please show more respect
for views..other than your own please""

mate we both
express our opinions..!

we are not called..on line..*belief
or on line..*facts...
or on line..*yes men

on line *OPINION

you have one
i have one

my opinion..responds..to the topic
yours little more than sour grapes..or a flame

but i love you
all..the same

with respect
to u 2

rub ya belly
for luck

The Arab nations want to break from the US/Israeli imperialism.The US is trying to blame Pakistan for hiding Bin laden who has been dead since 2001.China has told the USA to back off.The US is a crumbling empire and war is the sign of its' death throes.

So if you all want WW3,just keep believing the BS coming out of Washington.

a clear summation arjay

i will recall belly to the stand

""Good or bad,...
but any day...an event*""

thats a very wide bow
did you even notice the others?

gardicil is causingh cancer in those getting it
[dont talk of the kids allergic to heavey metals
put into our vacines..its fruit..autism]

nor the cancers in the brains of mobile-phone users

what of the bird flue..then the pig/bird human mutation
created by sience...that had contracted to the worlds govts
that IF the un decared an epidemic*[sic]..their orders for billions of doses would go active

the EXPIRED/time sensitive..stuff
sits rotting on the shelves
[or given as aid]

what of the EVENT that
""may rock this part of the world""
like the mail scare..with anthrax power[made in a lab?]

or the 40.000 gas..mines
leaking greenhouse gass into the sky[methane]

[coal-seam gas....'IN-fast-structure[read pipelines
built by doubling the price of our electicity/gas]

a tax on a tax..govts hand in your pocket
building schoolhalls...[not better facuilities]
the roof insulation
while the sky is falling

and israel/usa
mossad/cia

generate wars and conflicts*

kidnappings/torture/rendition's*

[abduction...assasination/murder...arms supply"
govt contracters,geen-grants...free solar

its all just the greedy
bleeding the needy

govt serving the party or appartheid systems
killing us off bit by bit..lie by lie

by our works will we be known
[what we did or didnt do]
not by our words

sticks and stones
can break bones

but names
they ever hurt me
the lables we put upon others

we put upon ourselves
graven on our heart

Hi Arjay,

Whenever I read your posts, I have this picture of how your mind works - that, according to that tangled swamp, somewhere in maybe Arizona, there is a huge secret array of vast hangars run by, I dunno, Halliburton, the CIA and Wall Street. In one of them, is an enormous collection of puppets and every so often, someone from one of the above evil empires comes in and exchanges one of the puppets for another, one for Mubarak here, another for Gaddafi there.

In your world, the people seem to have absolutely no will or wits of their own, they don't make choices, it's all done for them by the puppet-masters of the Evil Empire. There are no ideologies, except Halliburton's (and the Bush and bin Laden families), and the US-controlled world is a hierarchy of puppet-masters and puppets. We are all one or, more likely, the other. Except for you, of course.

In this hell on earth, there are no other powerful, corrupt, brutal regimes, like China, Russia, or Mugabe's: they are all just innocent bystanders, powerless but fundamentally good. Well, gooder than the Yanks, anyway.

If only it were all that simple, Arjay .......

But thanks for brightening my day :)

Joe

Arjay, somehow I doubt that Bin Laden was killed in 2001.
Wouldn't the US be crowing about that to the rest of the world if that was so?

I would sooner trust the US Government than any of the Middle East/African alternatives!

And thank you Joe, brightened my day.
Stand by, I have an idea, rare but yes I do.
A welded on ALP person, but sure some in my party are not, I Have uncovered a conspiracy.
OUG let it slip, he has been giving policy's direction to my party's leadership.
Knew some thing was wrong, cash for clunkers, East Timor plan never to be.
Thousands of dead people, or those no longer here getting the nine hundred bucks.
ETS then tax.
OUG on my knees mate! Ace it up! stop helping mate! do it for me!

I think Steve is pretty much on the money. It’s almost impossible to predict until and unless there are some sort of elections.

It’s interesting that the Mubarak family was only one of the twelve ruling families. Senior military commanders are also fully paid up superannuates of the twelve families, so we have the fox in charge of the hen house.

The military will have a vested interest in supporting or even creating civil conflict and raising the specter of an Islamic takeover. This would reinforce the need for military rule to continue.

Such civil strife could even split the country. North of Cairo to Alexandria has a high Christian population and is shunned by those from Cairo south. More interesting is the fact that north of Cairo has the majority of food production in the Nile Delta, almost all the new urban housing development; most of the EU funded infrastructure development and good port facilities accessing the Mediterranean. Add to that the persistent vilification of Christian communities throughout the rest of Egypt in general and Giza in particular and there is lots potential for civil unrest that of course, can only be resolved by the military?

Interesting times

belly/quote..""I Have uncovered a conspiracy.""

yeah sure
the invisable man
finds the invisable thing
claims now i can see....lol

""
OUG let it slip,
he has been giving policy's direction to my party's leadership.""

that was easier to do
back when a kitchen cabnet
was lindsey juliar [and the treasury/plus pm]
if important send to kev..if not that important send to treasurer

never said anything to lindsey
but did advice juliar on a thread here at olo

now its juliar/wayne..
that gay chick the gay guy[greenie]
the indepandants...and the faceless numbers
spin men...running their party...and the public servants/

funds/banks business/leasehold...franchise
licence...colluding to go green...bailouts
and make them all get jobs
except for you boat/people...

[non smokers only please]
drunks are fine
and the more obese the better
diabetus..we will give you your own terrorist network

""Knew some thing was wrong,""
..."""cash for clunkers,"""..

that wernt me
that was the unions
[and their faceless men

bailing out their auto-motive MATES
[lest we forget..they also get lpg conversion costs...
12 billion in fueel subsidies..[pre carbon tax]..market parity pricing where our standard sells for the price of signapures super

then speculaters bying it up
to speculate on future delivery
bah i spit on bailing therm, out
BUT LOOK IN THE BUDGET

5000 govt money...!
to buy a gas guzzler

lol
mate
THAT ISNT FROM ME...!

""East Timor plan never to be.""

that wrnt me neither
i say send them 'home'
as aussies..with aussie id
aussie pension for 8 mths...and diplomatic immunity

SEND THEM HOME
thats me
got it?

""Thousands of dead people,""
killed in wars
ENOUGH DO NOT KILL IN MY NAME

war is over..!

"" or those no longer here
getting the nine hundred bucks.
ETS then tax."""

i will ignore rather than presume
at what i thionk your saying

all i got to say about it..

"those paying 900 bucks in tax
shouldnt be paying it"

make the first 20,000 tax free
medibank levie free
supper contribution/free

8 hoursk
8 hours play
8 hours sleep

come on nany state
play by the rules
serve the common weal
into the common wealth...!

I know what it is Oh My Gord's posts are typed on cash register rolls.
That way Arjay cannot dob him into his CIA masters !

Bazz,"My CIA masters?" The CIAeda created Bin Laden just like Saddham Hussein.Let Egypt have its soverignity and make their own mistakes.They will be far better off without Western Banksters keeping them in debt slavery.The revolution has begun.Freedom for all humanity!

close bazz
but no cigar..[monika]

i smuggle the stuff out..of the cia
via dunny paper...[i take it home by the roll]
and they just think im stealing dunny paper's...lol

intel agencies...[lol intel....;not]

[any how re the cash regester docket
axccountants use it in their adding machines
but
...accounting hoards their tricker tape
so i thought why not use topilet paper to clean up this mess]

anyhow got to get back to work

[theres a bit of a buzz on
[hush hush...you know]

cant talk about it
...*today]

but by tomorrow..
well who knows eh?

wikileaks dont cover everything

anyhow gotta go
aipac on the line

hush hush you know..
on a need to know basis....[an all that]..

wink wink
nudge nudge
say no more

anyhow...back to the toilet
i need some more

now you know why us oldies
go to the wc so often

cc
oug

This piece in The Guardian is of interest:

Egypt is still ruled by an iron fist

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/10/egypt-iron-fist-muslims-coptic-christians

>>...since Mubarak's fall Egypt has not seen a flowering of democracy and human rights; instead the army has cracked down hard on protests. When I was in the country last month several authoritative sources told me that Egypt's supreme council of the armed orces had overseen the detention of some 5,000 people up to mid-April. These reportedly include 14- and 15-year-olds. There are numerous reports of detainees suffering torture.

....On 12 April a new law (law No 34) entered into force, criminalising demonstrations and strikes and putting protesters at risk of imprisonment and heavy fines.

[...]

...while Egypt's interior ministry has announced that a new national security agency will replace it [SSI], the details remain unclear and we do not know whether former SSI officers will be in any way investigated or subject to vetting before being reintegrated into a new force. Will it be a case of new uniforms, same old abuse?

Meanwhile members of Mubarak's old National Democratic party (NDP) have been rebranding themselves politically, gearing up to fight September's elections as independents. The Muslim Brotherhood, too, is preparing to contest up to half of seats, and women's groups told me of their fears that women's rights are set to suffer if politicians fail to take women's rights and political participation seriously.

[...]

Up to 10,000 people were held in administrative detention under longstanding emergency law powers in the final period of Mubarak's rule and some of these have now been released (1,659 by the middle of March). Yet the new Egyptian authorities have still not revealed exactly how many such prisoners are still held or set out a process for their release, even when there is a court order requiring it.

The unvarnished truth is that Egypt's jails have recently been filling up with men, women and teenagers and its new rulers are betraying the hope and promise of Egypt's massive February protests.>>

Well, I always thought the "Arab spring" existed only in the imaginations of wishful thinking Lefties.

Steven, not sure sure it is.was only Lefty's hoping and wishing for better there.
Not for the west in my case but for the region.
No way I am willing to say it has or will be achieved, but my old days in the left has branded me.
See I still think women in this part of the world, all females,and indeed children, should be better treated.
The west has its fingerprints all over current dictators and recent past ones,here.
Some having been put in power 40 years ago, a time it was thought such was the best America could do.
Not different than England or any past colonial power did.
Even in Iran, a true slave state some want more freedoms.
Not I suspect ours .
Entrenched greed and hunger for power may well see yet another dictatorship, I remain interested in the out come,hopeful too but not every ready to clutch right or lefts [for that matter lost too] claims to even understand what is going to be the out come.

The USA/Israel have never fosted democracy in the Middle East.They have always set up dictators like Murbarak and their regiemes Steven.The head was removed but the infrastructure of nepotism is still there sucking the US tax payer dry.

Arjay,

Has it ever occurred to you that the class structure, the abuse of the rule of law, the lack of human rights and opportunities, and the glaring example on TV etc. of the West before the eyes of the people of the Middle East - all of these might have some bearing on how people act ?

In other words, that - in addition to the US and the Israelis stirring the possum - many of the people of the Middle East are NOT puppets of anybody, that they are rising up endogenously, responding to internal factors ?

Not everybody dances the tunes of the US :)

Joe

Loudmouth Joe just as we do not know one another we do not know who arjay is and what drives him.
Could be interesting to know, but many no longer look for balance and understanding from some.
If indeed America drives/controls the middle east they have done so very badly.

and the destruction of lifta

http://www.google.com/search?q=lifta+israel

it[that]...'lifta'..should be on the world herriyage list
[protected]

good to see belly has an open mind

""we do not know who arjay is
and what drives him.

Could be interesting to know,
but many no longer look for balance and understanding..""

""..from some.""

yes indeed many think covering over the truth
is good enough[just like honouring god only with our lips
not our heart and works

charity is more important
than love[especially perverted 'loves'..like power or money]

""If indeed America drives/controls
the middle east they have done so very badly.""

well we must not forget
that 'some'..would like to see the arabs
driven back into the wilderness..[the self same wilderness MOSUS himself never was able to leave

none of the old were let into the holy lands
only the children..indocrinated on the exodus

[the hitler youth type motivated...radicalised energy ...
radicaliasm..of youth...incading palestein...again]

we must not ignore that the true aim
extends beyond oil/minerals/metals..drugs
its about keeping the 'macabees'...at heal..[under heal]

its about subverting forgivness of the past
about an eye for an eye..regardless who's eye

Loudmouth the USA gives $3 billion pa to Egypt.It corrupts the Govt.Much of this money is used to subdue their own people.Cheap labor for corp factories and the secret police + military to keep the lid on oppression.

Behind the US Govt are the Global Central Banks.They tell Congress when and how high to jump.

OUG I just can not ignore the quality of that post,with others of yours.
Better much better.
I have to confront myself too.
In this thread and others, I let myself forget all views, even ones I consider quite wrong, have value.
See I see Xenophobia not just in racism against minority's or those we do not like as bad always, and I see it in action against America here.
I am totally baffled ,stunned, that ANY ONE can see so much wrong with America.
Yet fail to see the other side of the coin.
America DID, once put its dictators in power, or more likely prop them up and help them gain power.
I suspect it is no longer policy to do so, remember some of this part of the worlds leaders had 40 years in power.
If America held the strings,was the puppet master claimed here, an Islamic republic would not be a possibility, it however is.
No colonial power I know of did not act as you and Arjay say America has.
The coming new world leaders, like it or not in financial matters at least,China is deep in its self interest right now buying and selling nations with aid.
If we blink, if we buy the west is evil everyone else victims trash, we are fooling our selves.
I truly think no country ever acts other than in its own interests.
And that diplomacy is the art of telling lies in the name of self interest.

Belly,

"If America pulled the strings, was the puppet master claimed here, an Islamic republic would not be a possibility, it however is. "

That's where your reasoning falls short....America as a former string puller is precisely the scenario that results in an attempt to bring about an Islamic republic.
Remember that the Shah of Iran was installed with the assistance of the CIA in undermining and overthrowing the "democratically elected government" of Iran in the early 50's....the result, in the late 70's, was an Islamic republic.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

I suspect it is no longer policy to do so..."

Why would you suspect that, Belly?

Iraq?.....Afghanistan?......

Poirot, sorry but you look a long way back to hang America out to dry.
Look further see the sins of France and England there too.
Can you tell me, do you trust the other side?
Thoughts on them?

belly asks for thought on 'usa/briton/france'
lets just say the g7
call them...'them'

but its more that just g7
or the new g20...or that new alliance
china japan korea...

not even the eu/un/class of 72
or the bilderbergs..or the masons
or any of the other...'them'

them are charged with protecting their patch
those not doing it will look..for ways to..'get at'..others turf

when the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...[USA}
was formed...there were those who founded a shadow of usa
called simply 'america'...many cant tell the difference..

one is there to serve the people

the other a shield for those seeking
to hide the truth of what 'america'..is all about

or what usa could really be

if

it put
as much effort..as it has put
into america's/war...

[into making the united peacefull prosperous states
of the god ol us....[leave off the A]

ie reaped..the true intent of usa
bringing...the US...
our earned..fruits of peace

instead of building for ever/more war
how depressing...[war ever-more]

peace not pieces

or MAYBE we are witnessing the birth of
PALIStIEN..islamic demoncarty of pale-stein

Egypt Activists Plan
15 May....
&...*March To Gaza
http://mycatbirdseat.com/2011/05/egypt-activists-plan-15-may-march-to-gaza/
By: My Catbird Seat

Since its announcement,

the initiative has been described by various online groups
as “The 2011 March of Return,” “The Palestinian Refugees’ Revolution,”

and, in some cases,
“The Third Palestinian Intifada.”

Buses will depart from Cairo’s Tahrir Square
at noon on 14 May and then meet up
with more protesters in Suez.

but where
when the flotilla to gaza
meduia silence speaks volumes

the arabs are declaring peace
freespeech...and the right

to dis-obey
unlawfull orders

peace not pieces

ps
why the tanks in gaza?
http://presstv.com/detail/179435.html
http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/10/a-time-for-truth-bin-ladens-death-wont-end-the-war-on-terror-until-americans-understand-the-threat-was-always-us/

anyhow you gotta love this

http://dailybail.com/home/raj-insider-trading-verdict-guilty-on-all-14-counts-billiona.html

lest we forget
http://empirestrikesblack.com/2011/05/911-bin-laden-confession-video-mistranslated-and-manipulated-by-the-cia/

the times may be a changing..
but lets finish with a joke

http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-kenobi-is-killed.html#idc-cover

Human Rights Concerns in Post-Mubarak Egypt

Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011

by Isobel Coleman (Council on Foreign Relations blogger)

http://blogs.cfr.org/coleman/2011/05/11/human-rights-concerns-in-post-mubarak-egypt/

EXCERPT:

>>Today, Human Rights Watch has staff on the ground around the world, shaming governments with their research and advocacy. In Egypt, Heba Morayef has been following events closely, sounding important alarms about continued human rights abuses by the military leadership. “We are not seeing a transition to a respect for the rule of law,” worries Morayef. Since February, the military has tried and sentenced more than 5,600 civilians in military courts, many of them protesters arrested in Tahrir Square. “The vast majority of the cases involves civilian crimes, like theft, and should go to civilian courts,” >>

As worrying as the military trials is the government’s censorship of the media. “There are clear red lines when it comes to exposing military abuse and torture,” says Morayef. … Morayef draws attention to the high-profile case of blogger Maikel Nabil, who was sentenced last month to three years in prison for “insulting the military establishment.” …General Ismail Etman, head of the Morale Affairs Directorate of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces…pecifically denounced his calls for an end to military conscription, saying such talk has a negative effect on the youth of Egypt.

As I wrote in a CNN piece in March, Egypt is in a tug of war for its future. On one side of this divide stand the largely secular, leftist, urban, youthful leaders of the Tahrir Square protests; on the other stand the old political elements of the Muslim Brotherhood and the military-backed remnants of the National Democratic Party (NDP), as well as large swaths of conservative rural voters. The playing field is definitely not level between these two sides, with secular youth groups already quite marginalized….>>

END EXCERPT

No sign of an "Arab spring" here

Sadly yes Steven.
OUG,no way around it mate you should reconsider your posting style.
It has been highlighted that you seem to have two different styles.
One is quite well put together and rare.
The above effort is in my view likely to be you talking only to your self.
The first line of post one wearied me, I could no see it getting better and did not bother reading more.
My request, of you if you must but in fact Poirot, was to talk of those wonderful honest clean as the driven snow anti Americans in the middle east.
You should consider this, do some of your posts respect your self? highlight strongly held views, and do you want people to read them, then mate compare your posts,not with mine but every other poster.

Belly,

The acrimony and sabre-rattling that regularly passes between Iran and the West is to a degree a consequence of British and, particularly U.S., interference in 1953. The Islamic state was born as a consequence.

It's a mere a blink of an eye time-wise as far as the history of the middle-east goes.

"...clean as driven snow anti Americans in the middle-east."

Would you feel particularly pro-anybody who regularly came stomping through your vegie patch brandishing a big stick?

Poirot,

The US overthrew the democratically-elected government of Mossadegh, and re-installed the Shah. The left in their naivete forged an alliance with the Islamists in 1978-79 and indirectly helped install a theocratic state, after which they were butchered. The US did not play a role in overthrowing the Shah and installing a more reactionary theocracy.

So perhaps you are drawing a long bow to attribute the success of the ayatollahs to the US: I think it would come as a surprise to all parties concerned :)

Joe

Loudmouth,

I wasn't insinuating that the U.S. overthrew the Shah...how stupid would that have been (after going to all the trouble to install him).

I was, however, alluding to the fact that the ayatollahs gained ascendancy in response, and as a counter agent, to the Shah being a puppet of the U.S.

The world has been stomping in and around Arab states forever.
Once the Ottoman Empire even.
Country's such as Lebanon tell that story.
Again and again the maps have been redrawn those in control change but I refuse to fall for the American excuse, that this part of the world can blame America for its problems.
I await answers for a few questions.
Is it not true much of the pain and hunger, suffering and discrimination comes courtesy of a religion more in every day control than any?
Are lies said to be not just ok but to be used against us who are not followers of that God, even in His Holly books.
Can any one tell me America treats its people as bad as some are treated here.
Or lies any more than this part of the world.
This world will never be perfect.
Our choice is simple, take the best path for humanity and the best of an imperfect world.
But to harvest the wrongs of one side, to activly look for them, while ignoring the others is self deception.

Belly,

Yes, you are right that the middle-east has experienced many upheavals throughout history.
And what do you want me to say about the imperialist conduct of Britain and France...before America it was those two colonialist countries who stomped around this region...yes again.

Wherever the shadow of Empire falls the vanquished will suffer...yep, that's pretty much the way it goes.

But don't make out, as America does, that it's all the result of altruistic intention. They are merely helping themselves because they can - might is right n'all that.

belly maaaate
i done gone and changed my writing style 4 times

everytime i get banned..
i create a new style..[under the same id...!]

i am,..what those who complained
about me...have made me

mate you write in small sentances
i sort of picked it up from you

now i too write sentances[cause like you i dont know how to use those grade 3 skills..like comma...or exclamation points...or "..or '
or why :...not this..'':''..mate i got no clue..[just like you]

mate we are luckey
we post the stuff..we do post

you dont get my 'style'
and i dont get what your saying a lot of the time
but at least now i hope we have learned to post nice
[lets face it without others opinions...our opinions get a little stale]

now see you would put that same sentance
and chose a different word[for me the words we chose..reveal more than what we actually are saying...

a hint..sentance...is not the same as sentanence
and because even sentanance..is likely to be spelled wrong to
you are luckey to get what you get...[a reply]..that allows the origonal toopic or subject..to be better grokked

[that is a word not in spell check
it means to completly and uttterly grasp
..the truth..completness[essence].,,.of that groked...

do you..[grok?]

we live in amasing times
i fuigure even a fool can teach the most clever man
[who only got clever..by listening[hearing..reading what was wrote]

then using what he learned
to best affect..[not effect]

when you say my writing 'makes sense'
is when we are in accord..[agree]
saying the same thing.[on the same side]

but when i drift off that..you grasp..[grokk]
you feel its gibberish...cause your
supposed to use..the image
the word used..puts in your mind

see our minds are either recieving input
or putting out energies
[your too busy listening to the inner voice
for the outside words to get their logic in]

other than that when i quote others
i clarify how i see the words quoted]

but they wrote
the words propper..!

so in quoting them i use proper english
unless they are talking giberish esperanto

Hi Poirot,

So ..... whatever consequences follow from an action by the US to overthrow a legitimate government, no matter how long afterwards, the US is responsible for ?

So, because of their machinations in, say, China in the forties, they were directly responsible for the success of the Revolution in 1949 ? Because of their installation (and subsequent assassination) of Ngo Dinh Diem in South Vietnam in the late fifties, they were responsible for its liberation and absorption into the Democratic Republic of Vietnam ?

So ..... whether the US opposes or supports a particular side in a political battle, they are directly responsible for whatever the outcome may be, Left or Right ? The US is all-powerful, responsible for pretty much everything that happens, like Arjay believes ?

Three-year-olds believe their daddy or mummy causes it to rain, and get angry with them when they can't go out to play. Join the club, Poirot :)

Joe

Gosh, Loudmouth, you run a nice line in twisty-turny logic.

Are you denying that The Shah ruled as a puppet of the U. S. and that the ensuing Islamic state was more likely to arise out of such a situation?

Of course, there always exists a number of variables in any given situation, but the fact remains that some actions are more pertinent to outcomes than others.

dont leave out the affect of iraq attacking iran
via sadman insane [cia]

and who gave them a nuclear reacter?

the middle east is the result of war mongers
look no further than a co,loniser [pbriton]...handing israel to the capoes/zionists[northern bolchovics]..

via lol a letter..[belfore]..
lest we ignore the us..base..in bah/reign
or the ties with the royal house of saud

[colonisation
one oh one]

usa
all the way
[each dog has its day]
war is over if we want to

all we are saying is give peace a chance
and then live with demon/ocracy
instead of demonic auto-crazey

Poirot,

Was it absolutely certain that a theocracy would follow the overthrow of the Shah ? We know now that such things are possible, but nobody would have dreamt of it back in the seventies, except perhaps the ayatollahs, in exile in Iraq.

But there could have been other outcomes, even if we assume that somehow, the US would have opposed them:

* a social-democratic revolution, organised by a old Labour Party-type coalition - such things had happened in Lebanon before 1979;

* the Shah falling out with the US and inviting the Russians in - after all, his father had done something like this in the forties;

* invasion from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan;

* civil war and the breaking-up of Iran into a dozen mini-states, Azeri, Kurd, Sistani, Baluchi, Arab, Pashtun, Turkmen/Turcoman, etc.

All of these would have been as unlikely as a Shi'ite theocracy, and none of them would have been to the liking of the US or the oil companies. I'm not so sure that the US plays dice with its interests.

But according to your understanding of how the world works, whatever happened would have been the fault of the Americans. With respect, doesn't that require a slightly twisted logic ?

Joe

Loudmouth,

Any one of those scenarios could have taken place - except that they didn't.

I'm simply drawing a conclusion from events that "did" unfold.

But you seem to have a problem with that.

I do indeed, Poirot :)

Just because something happens, doesn't mean it HAD to happen: it would have been one of many possibilities. You need to find some way to show that

(a) the descent into a reactionary theocracy was by far the most likely outcome of all the political goings-on in Iran in the seventies;

(b) the US somehow engineered, or allowed, this outcome; and

most unlikely, that:

(c) the US has benefited out of overthrow of 'their' Shah.

Good luck !

Joe

Loudmouth,

If something happens, and I draw a conclusion form the event - then it simply happens...I don't need to find a way to show you anything.

For the second time, I did "not" suggest that the overthrow of the Shah was America's doing...

ergo, your (c) challenge is moot, m'dear : )

Okapy, Poirot,

When you write,

" .... The acrimony and sabre-rattling that regularly passes between Iran and the West is to a degree a consequence of British and, particularly U.S., interference in 1953. The Islamic state was born as a consequence."

are you simply noting that (b) the Islamist state in Iran merely comes some time after (a) British and US interference in 1953 ?

i.e. 1979 comes after 1953 ?

Or are you trying to attribute the cause of the Islamist state to the US in some way ?

i.e. are you suggesting merely one event follows another in time, or one event somehow causes the later event ? In the sense that the Mongol invasion of Persia (Iran) somehow had effects which still linger ? Mongol b@stards !

Sorry, dear, I'm a bear of little brain :)

Joe

Poirot,

At what point do the Egyptians stop the blame game and take responsibility for there own future?

In South Africa 17 years after the election that brought the ANC to power the ANC government is still blaming the Apartheid regime for the ANC failure to deliver on services. By all accounts the voters aren't buying. If there were a viable opposition party the ANC would be out on its ear.

It's only a matter of time.

But then again South Africa is a democracy. Egypt isn't and probably won't be in our life times.

Now is this all the fault of the wicked USA?

Or must the Egyptians, and the ideology of Islam, bear some of the blame?

Gawd!.....

Okay, Loudmouth....have you got your interpreter and ear trumpet at the ready?....yes?....good.....here we go....

I believe I've stated fairly clearly that (in my opinion) the Islamic revolution of 1979 was likely to have been in response to decades of the Shah's rule - i.e. the Shah was a U.S. installed and supported puppet.

Sheesh!

Steve,

I'm no expert on South African politics, but When I read Naomi Klein's analysis of the situation, I was enlightened somewhat. Here's some of what she wrote in "The Shock Doctrine":

"As the political talks progressed and it became clear to the National Party that Parliament would soon be firmly in the hands of the ANC, the party of South Africa's elites began pouring energy and creativity into economic negotiations....In these talks, the de Klerk government had a two-fold strategy....they used a wide range of new policy tools - international trade agreements, innovations in constitutional law and structural adjustment programs - to hand control of those power centres to supposedly impartial experts, economists and officials from the IMF, the World Bank, the General Agreement of Tariffs and Trade(GATT) and the National Party - anyone except the liberation fighters in the ANC. It was a strategy of balkanisation, not of the country's geography (as de Klerk had originally attempted), but of its economy.
The plan was successfully executed under the noses of ANC leaders, who were naturally preoccupied with winning the battle to control Parliament. In the process, the ANC failed to protect itself against a far more insidious strategy - in essence, an elaborate insurance plan against the economic clauses in The Freedom Charter ever becoming law in South Africa."

Steven,

If you're interested in some of the contributing factors in the ANC's failure to deliver the promise of the Freedom Charter, here are some examples given by Klein of the obstacles they faced:

"Want to redistribute land? Impossible - at the last minute, the negotiators agreed to add a clause to the new constitution that protects all private property, making land reform virtually impossible. Want to create jobs for millions of unemployed workers? Can't - hundreds of factories were actually about to close because the ANC had signed on to the GATT, the precursor to the World Trade Organization, which made it illegal to subsidise the auto plants and textile factories. Want to get free AIDS drugs to the townships, where the disease is spreading with terrifying speed? That violates an intellectual property rights commitment under the WTO, which the ANC joined with no public debate as a continuation of the GATT. Need money to build more and larger houses for the poor and to bring free electricity to the townships? Sorry - the budget is being eaten up servicing the massive debt, passed on quietly by the apartheid government....Free water for all? Not likely. The World Bank, with its large in-country contingent of economists, researchers and trainers (a self-proclaimed "Knowledge Bank"), is making private sector partnerships the norm. Want to impose currency controls to guard against wild speculation? That would violate the $850 million IMF deal, signed, conveniently enough, right before the elections. Raise the minimum wage to close the apartheid income gap? Nope. The IMF deal promises "wage restraint".....The bottom line was that South Africa was free but simultaneously captured, each one of these arcane acronyms represented a different thread in the web that pinned down the limbs of the new government."

I wonder if the Egyptian people will have a similar experience?

Every one has an opinion, on every thing.
At some point every one of us is wrong.
Not one of us understand the full issue,on any subject.
But we must question those who find fault only on one side.
Steven rightly reminds us,history is just that, we live in today.
Our failures just like our successes is ours to own, not any one else's.
America too has been used and abused,by some Poirot says are victims of America.
America helped remove Russia from Afghanistan, after Arab states asked it to.
Removed Saddam from another country, after being asked to by Arabic states.
Yet from within Saudi Arabia like Pakistan, the very worst terrorists operate, are fed and sheltered even funded.
As China by now has been given the wreckage of that crashed America helicopter by Pakistan, wait and hope.
Hope the day this world yet again faces the reality War is a tool for self interested country's that America can, yet again save the west.
And some may, I never will, forget the deaths of innocents through out the area we talk of not at American hands but the ones some see as saints.

Belly,

Contrary to your opinion, I don't believe that America is the repository of all evil. However, I am realistic about its its exploits and its self-interested and influential artifices. As I pointed out, it's a powerful entity and it often uses that power to feather its own nest...there is nothing particularly unusual about a powerful country acting in that manner.

"Yet from within Saudi Arabia and Pakistan the very worst terrorists operate, are fed and sheltered and even funded."

mmmm....interesting, that. Isn't it fascinating that when the U.S. ascertains the threat emanating from two such countries, it mobilises all its might - and promptly bombs the countries next door.

And lets not forget, Belly, that The U.S. was bosom buddies with Saddam while he was using their backing to bash the daylights out of Iran - and this was with Americas implicit knowledge that Saddam had used gas on his own people.

So Poirot cites Naomi Klein as source of her insights into world affairs.

Mmm...why are we not surprised!

http://runningofthebulls.typepad.com/toros_running_of_the_bull/2008/05/johan-norberg-o.html

SPQR,

It's simply an antidote to the usual fare of spin and bullsh!t.... and of which your link is a prime example.

: )

the south africa experience is very apt
ok they want their cuntry back..so lets make sure they got no control

we saw much the same mindset
when howard gave 25 billion in tax cuts
that krudd immediatly adopted...[had it sen howard re=elected..he wouldnt have gone through with them...they dierectly [now]..are affecting the worse budget surplus..giving the opposition air..

but by the same token their absurd expenditrures on the nbn[or digetal top boxes]..again mainly thanks to howard..for selling telecom/telstra..and installing that yanki...

who stopped upgrading the system..
[while letting in overseas telephone operators]
as we fell behind the world..[all in the name of capitalist=isms]

the change over to digetal is another howhard legacy
murddock..kept the bandwidth..even managed to get the heavey specrum[big abuse of limited specrum]version...so as to not be forced to make more programing..

anyhow those who lead us are so clever
at keeping the status/quo in their place

yet any of these bad binding commitments...
could be dropped by a vote to the people[by referndumb]
but the clever guys keep that to themselves

howrard was prepared to go back on the tax cuts
if he was given a win..[the new treasuror/leader
would have made some easy out comment somewhere

[we just havnt found it yet]
[they all ways set these brair rabbits for others
like when frazier sacked the pm
[or when juliar sacked the pm]

sack the lot of em
before they ransac us
like they done 'america'

Simply an antidote?
It sounded more like you were doing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltsv40vCP7g

But I have to agree with you, the usual fare IS spin and bullsh!t.
Though I think the usual fare is that which is being espoused by you and Naomi.Which can be succinctly put as: the big bad West caused all the woes of the world –and now must bankroll everyone else.

It’s very much de rigueur at the ABC, SBS and with many of our “progressive” journalists and politicians. And many perhaps most in
education fields ( just take a look at most of Squeers posts) ;-)

Poirot,

Re your posts of Friday, 13 May 2011 6:37:18 PM & Friday, 13 May 2011 10:35:54 PM

As you say, you are not an expert on South Africa. Neither is Naomi Klein.

These are simply the excuses Leftie apologists for an appalling government make to excuse the failure of their heroes. It's the sort of BS put it by Lefties in the 1930s to excuse Stalin's brutality.

The real answer is much more mundane than a White plot. It's a combination of graft on what I can only call an African scale and ineptitude. There is also a fair amount of violence directed aganst people who dissent from the ANC party line.

But in the end people will believe what they want to believe. No amount of evidence could convince a creationist of the reality of evolution and no amount of evidence can convince an old anti-Apartheid fighter that the successor government may be as bad as its predecessor. it would mean admitting that they've wasted so much passion and energy over so many years. Few people are able to write off such a huge emtional investment.

The classic case is Robert Mugabe. He was a bad man from the day he took office. But it was not until the previous generation of Western anti-Ian Smith crusaders had retired that it was permissible to say this in public. They simply could not admit to themselves that they had helped put such an evil man in office. (Of course they were flattering themselves. Vorster pulled the plug on Smith).

So it goes.

Steven,

I agree that Mugabe is a bad man and a bad leader and, no doubt, in South Africs's case, the ANC leadership is responsible to some extent for some of its own predicament.

But apologists for Western institutions like the IMF and The World Bank, etc. never admit the role these entities play in stymieing improved community outcomes.
Check out any country experiencing an economic or physical set-back these days, and you'll find the World Bank is on the ground in no time flapping its cheque book about and doing deals to privatise the supply of previously commonly held assets and resources - the profits of which, usually flow in a one way direction to the rich industrial nations.

http://www.globalenvision.org/library/23/1524
(although, I'm sure none of you will bother to read it)

Poirot,

I am not an apologist for the IMF or the World Bank. On the contrary I have frequently advocated the abolition of both.

However neither institution can be held responsible for the gargantuan scale government corruption and INEPTITUDE in South Africa.

I refer you to the corruptions perception index for 2010 published by Transparency International

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results

South Africa ranks 54 along with Kuwait. This is certainly no improvement on its ranking during Apartheid.

However this ranking does not capture the full story. Some governments are corrupt but competent. The ANC government is ineptitutde personified.

BTW Naomi Klein's piece on de Klerk pulling the wool over the eyes of the ANC is pure BS. It assumes a degree of naivite on the part of the ANC which was certainly not in evidence during the negotiations.

All members of the ANC negotiating team were sharp operators and had excellent advisers. It was definitely NOT a case of wiley Whites deceiving poor, ignorant Blacks.

I suggest that Klein's piece and your willingness to accept it demonstrates a certain degree of racism. You too easily buy into the stereotype of poor ignorant Blacks being cheated by smart Whites.

It wasn't like that.

Poirot

Well, I doubt Steven will read the link you thoughtfully provided - he needs to believe that everything corporate is good.

Loved this little snippet from the link:

" The IMF and World Bank are largely controlled and owned by the development nations such as USA, Germany, UK, Japan, amongst others. The US for example controls 17 to 18% of the voting right at the IMF. When an 85% majority is required for a decision, the US effectively has veto power at the IMF. In addition, the World Bank is 51% funded by the US treasury."

As Steven himself states: >> But in the end people will believe what they want to believe. <<

Well done Steven for demonstrating the truth of which you write.

Steven

No one's hands are clean in any of this. Yes, Mugabe IS corrupt and so is the IMF - which you now claim you would liked to see disbanded - nice back track there.

Another snippet

" Under a plane devised mechanism the World Bank and the IMF loan money in return for the structural adjustment of their economies. This means that economic direction of each country would be planned, monitored, and controlled in Washington. For instance, the World Bank assistance for helping a poor country involves, country by country investigations with a meeting of begging-Finance Ministers who are handed a restructuring agreement pre-drafted for voluntary signature.

According to James Sackey, former World Bank Country Representative in Sierra Leone, these instructions include privatizations, trade liberalization, high interest rates etc. Trade liberalization for under-developed economies could have some serious attendant effects.

Trade liberalization can lead to dumping of cheap and substandard products from outside. This undermines local industries that produce or intend to produce the same products."

interesting link

lets join two dots
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14938

Another very important factor
is the devaluation of currencies
which is supposed to increase self sufficiency by making imported products more expensive and African exports cheaper.

Since most African countries do not produce these products, it is not possible to replace them with locally produced ones.

On the other hand, most of the countries that buy African products have set certain amounts on how much can be imported or have fixed prices in foreign currencies to shelter their own products,

even when they become cheaper in local currencies,
do not necessarily gain new outside markets*...or earn more foreign exchange*...

the game is rigged

look at libia..[this dictraiter
paid all the people a form of dole
free education etc

he wanted to..form HIS OWN BANK
but imf dont want that

thats then the poop hit the fan

NATO Rattles Gadhafi's Home Base
Wall Street Journal
NATO airstrikes struck Gadhafi's compound in Tripoli and three other sites, hours after the Libyan leader was shown on state TV.

look at the money links
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/13/business/global/13iht-imf13.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/05/imf-warns-eu-debt-crisis-may-still.html
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/05/report-states-nickel-and-dime.html
they need to steal and impoverish..
those who cant fight back

"Civilization and anarchy
are only seven meals apart."
--..Spanish Proverb
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/may/12/food-waste-fao-report-security-poor
http://dailybail.com/home/world-food-price-index-holds-steady-at-historic-highs-chart.html
http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/12/un-calls-for-population-control-as-global-birthrates-decline/

see the joke
photoshop[was the reason]..for bin larden destraction
[it was photoshopped][the full birthcetrificate]..

so we got binlarden shoped
and still doing his destractions[for the cia]

http://www.freewilliamsburg.com/citing-modesty-concerns-hipster-website-removes-sexually-suggestive-male-images-from-sit-room-photo/
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/porn-found-osama-bin-laden-evidence-trove/comments?type=story&id=13599025
http://current.com/news/93219687_cia-created-fake-drunken-osama-bin-laden-homosexual-peodophile-video.htm

http://uruknet.com/?p=m77643&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14938

Ammonite

A few points:

You write:

>>he [Steven] needs to believe that everything corporate is good>>

I don’t know on what you base that statement but it is untrue. In fact it is close to being the opposite of the truth.

You write:

>>which [IMF] you now claim you would liked to see disbanded - nice back track there.>>

This is no “back track”. I’ve been thinking the IMF and World Bank should be disbanded for decades. (Yes I am that old)

You are entitled to your opinions. But if you make assertions about me it would help if you could back them up with some evidence. You have none for these.

You have completely misstated my views.

DEVELOPMENTS IN EGYPT

The Muslim Brotherhood and various Salafi sects appear to have signed a deal ahead of the upcoming Egyptian elections.

Muslim leaders: We want an Islamic state:

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/431967

>>…Salafi spokesman Abdel Moneim al-Shahat said Islamic movements are uniting in order to preserve the Islamic nature of Egypt.

“God’s words must rule and Islam must be in the hearts of the citizens,” …

And:

The Muslim Brotherhood's Salafi pact puts Egyptian Christians in great danger

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelweiss/100087770/the-muslim-brotherhoods-salafi-pact-puts-egyptian-christians-in-great-danger/

>>The Muslim Brotherhood has announced an electoral coalition with a host of Salafi groups in Egypt, under the banner of seeking an Islamic state. “…

[…]

Among the Brotherhood’s new parliamentary partners is Jama’a al-Islamiyya, a Salafi group that played a role in the assassination of President Anwar Sadat in 1981 and recently advocated the formation of a Saudi-style “modesty police” for Egypt.

…Jama’a’s other claims to notoriety … include:

- Being cited by Ayman al-Zawhiri in 2006 as an affiliate member of al-Qaeda, a courtesy just reciprocated by one Gama’a official who proclaimed that “the assassination [of Osama bin Laden] will open the gates of Hell and set it face to face with the Muslims’ vengeance”;

[…]

- Killing 18 Greek tourists (14 of whom were women) outside a hotel in Cairo in 1996 because Jama’a militants mistook the travellers for Israelis;

- Killing 9 tourists and injuring 35 more on a bus in Cairo in September 1997;

- Killing another 71 tourists in November 1997 in Luxor.

Jama’a is said to have forsworn violence since the 1990s, …

[…]

…Gama’a’s alliance with the any segment of the Brotherhood will only be met with alarm by Egypt’s 8 million or so Coptic Christians …
[…]

Naguib Gabriel, the head of the Egyptian Federation of Human Rights, said in mid-April that his office is now fielding “at least 70 calls per week from people wanting to know how they can emigrate”.

And there you have it: Islamist moderation in Egypt can be measured in exit visas.>>

Doesn’t look good.

Steven,

"You too easily buy into the stereotype of poor ignorant Blacks being cheated by smart Whites."

On the contrary, Steven - I have all the faith in the world in Black and Brown people. In fact, I'm a tad indigenous myself (my father was American Indian).

You're the one stereotyping South African Blacks and accusing them of graft and ineptitude. You're the one who totally dismisses the (smart?) White de Klerk government's contrivance of an arrangement to frustrate the ANC and thwart them in their attempts to enact the Freedom Charter. You ignore the hindrance and obstruction visited upon the new government by the steel claws of the IMF, World Bank and other Euro/American controlled institutions.....and the best you can do is accuse me of a racist slant.....

You are entitled to your opinions. But if you make assertions about me it would help if you could back them up with some evidence. you have none for these.
You have completely misstated my views.
(sound familiar?)

Poirot sorry to butt in, but this one had me ROFL

“On the contrary, Steven - I have all the faith in the world in Black and Brown people. In fact, I'm a tad indigenous myself (my father was American Indian).”

But that would only make you indigenous to America (and maybe not even that, if the Clovis peoples were around to testify).

And by that measure all of us are indigenous, even dare I say it, non-brown or black people.

Well, of course, SPQR, you have a point - but I'm sure you get my drift.

It's intriguing that you are so easily induced to ROFL - don't get out much, eh.

It's also intriguing how that interacting on this thread seems to brought home to me just how much time I waste squabbling on this forum.

spqur...indigenouse means...living-life.../without culture
in short a tree could be said to be
indigenouse in its 'place'

or a human [without their culture]..
is clearly indigenouse to somewhere.

idiginous is the means to take a cheap shot at abo
[ab-origonal][alpha/beta/origonal]
calling them..

raised..without the benifit
of an ongoing *culture..[indigenouse]
is one of the most clever forms of racism i have found

but you distract from the main point
and hope you get back to the last posted point

It seems that the IMF and the World Bank have been weaving their "magic" in Egypt for quite a while....privatisation and reform have been the catchwords. Egypt was one of the World Bank's top reformers and topped the scale in 2010.....but all the profits have been funnelled to the top echelon of Egyptian society and out into the coffers of corporate globalised entities - and ordinary people are left hungry and and out of work....

I wonder why they are in revolt - surely a regular pat on the back from the World Bank is enough to satiate hunger pains?
http://anilnetto.com/corporate-led-globalisation/imfworld-bank/egypt-followed-imfworld-bank-ideas/

Poirot

At least we all agree with Steven on his revelation that:

>> I’ve been thinking the IMF and World Bank should be disbanded for decades. <<

He just doesn't like to have his opinions challenged is all.

At least he won't be blaming the starving victims of World Bank "Reform", for their dire circumstances anymore. Good one Steve.

the scape goat is the imf
http://dailybail.com/home/dominique-strauss-kahn-tim-geithner-and-the-imf.html

but we need to ask why
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGETccFkVCc

As I woke up this Sunday morning,
http://presstv.com/usdetail/180077.html

I turned on my computer as I usually do.
http://presstv.com/detail/180018.html

The first thing that I noticed
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24773

was the “Middle East on Fire”...
or broke as well as being broken?..

This was and still is the headlines
on Drudge even now as well as http://www.debka.com/
which is Mossad run.

If I can recall the past 2 months or so,
it seemed to start with the Japan earthquake..and subsequent tsunami.

Then we are all familiar with the Fukushima nuclear disaster which seemingly dropped off the American headlines since all was seemingly well.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367698/Radiation-good-says-Ann-Coulter-weighs-Japans-nuclear-crisis.html

besides there was a right royal wedding

but then...the Obama/Soetoro birth certificate
became the ‘hot issue’ of the week.[a photoshoppped full extract was created and exposed]..

so the raid of bin larden
was put into action
[it got photoshopped too]

of course now its buget's
money debt/bailouts...austerity measures
an impoverished concumer...and multinational takeover fevers/looking for a safe place to hide their loot/booty

imf.....?
if not there then where?
bubbbles bubbles EVERYWHERE
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/15/us-usa-stocks-weekahead-idUSTRE74C76320110515?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&dlvrit=56943

a true wealth is your people
grow their skill's ambitions...not your bank acount
[or your odious debts passed onto our austerity measures]
http://allenlrolandsweblog.blogspot.com/

and govts making new laws
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/05/15/congress-vote-declaration-world-war-3-endless-war-borders-clear-enemies-22785/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/al-nakba-remembering-the-land-that-never-was-photo-essay-video/
recall the release of a damming report of refugees employments..?

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2011/05/14/a-supine-submission-to-wrong-and-injustice/

http://saladin-avoiceinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2011/05/holding-world-hostage.html

Poirot,

I wish you'd stay on topic, this thread is about a clash of ideologies and vilifying Islam, and nothing so tawdry as real material inequalities.
I'm sure it suits the US and the IMF and the capitalist hegemon in general that we in the censorial West are not diverted in their displeasure by side-issues like bread. Let them eat cake.

Absolutely Ammonite!

Sorry Squeers, but you know I'm a notorious indigenous "leftie" : )

Just been having a squizz at the reasons why reforms went bounding ahead in 2004 - and wouldn't ya know it, I believe I've come up with something:

One Yusaf Boutros Ghali who began his carreer in the IMF and was a bog-shot in that organisation from 2008 to 2011 happened to take over as Egyptian finance Minister in 2004.

Here's a little more on him:
http://www.whistleblower.org/blog/31-2010/1083-arab-uprisings-show-the-impact-of-the-world-bank-and-the-imf

That should, of course, be "big-shot".

Actually “bog-shot” (Freudian slip?) is sooo much better.
ROFL

SPQR,

You're right - ROFL, indeed.

It did occur to me that it was a Freudian Slip, considering the sewer ethics of the IMF and the World Bank.

Aw but Poriot, you’ve LEFT out his favourite position –and one which knowing your leanings, must really tickle your heart.

He is/was the French SOCIALIST party’s likely presidential candidate.

Footnote: SPQR is NOT commenting on the guilt or innocence or character of the gentleman concerned.

SPQR,

Yes, it's an interesting turn of events, happening in the middle of my musings concerning the IMF.

I did note that he was a socialist.

However, if the French Socialist Party is anything like the Australian Labor Party, there's not much left of the LEFT - if you know what I mean.

Apparently DSK's accuser is an African immigrant to the USA.

So the head of the IMF allegedly f*$#ed an African!

Actually he and his predecessors have been f*$%ing Africans for decades.

Sorry, cannot resist that one.