My wife who works in the disability sector has had confirmed by her union that her emloyer has been underpaying by some $8 to $9 an hour plus other entitlements going back years in accordance or more accurately, not in accordance with the award for her industry.

Employers in my own industry provide caveats for themselves whilst abrogating the rights of their employees through the use of permission clauses in their contracts. These clauses allow them to thumb their noses at the rights of their employee's with the specific permission of the very same. Even though these contracts are illegal at best, a form of theft at worst, no one police's this.

The destruction caused to our economy through the uncertain industrial environment and the headless,lawless way, we allow business people to conduct themselves in our country is a direct result of bad Govt. In this case the Howard Govt, followed by those after them, for not fixing it.

As I work on an Easter Saturday for no pay, I fear the biggest problem we have as an retailer, is that the declining living standards that are direct result of such bad policy, are the reason my productivity is reduced and not the cost of the hours I am working.

There are simply not enough positive happy customers coming through the door anymore with sufficient capacity to purchase to make it sensible,worthwhile or enjoyable to work Public Hols for nothing.

No matter how many extra free hours my employer feels he can exploit from my life in favour of his own goals, he will not succeed in sating his own greed.

As petrol increases,utilities, communications etc go through the roof without any apparent restraint,stripping people of their capacity to survive, prosper or get ahead through working hard. No matter how hard or long you work your living standards will continue to decline.

Does anybody want to do something about this ?.

Thinker 2 I seem to remember we have talked about such issues before.
First almost no such workers are in a union.
Second SOME unions have forgotten why they exist.
They look at distances and numbers and do not take the immediate action good unions do.
The industry, like most health ones,runs on extreme low wages and extreme dedication of those low paid workers.
I have Friends in that job.
I have bluffed some employers in to fixing problems, bad under payments, represented on as delegated to do so.
Try this,take every step and I promise it will work.
Go to fair work Australia look for the Ombudsman, send written in full details , copy's, only copy's of pay slips.
Watch the feathers fly.
NOW my anti union/workers
In aged care/child care nursing/pre school only the dedication and desperate need to earn an income see,our most vulnerable looked after.
A window cleaner makes more.
If it was your child/ your husband/your wife mum or dad, would you want them looked after by people paid as serfs?
fair go Aussie every one has the right to eat.

john how-hard broke the egg too much
for it to ever be made whole again

were all going to be scambled [scam/bled] and fried soon
the wealthy need to exploit the workers..they got no other option

none are brave enough to tell govt..to collect 'its own taxes'
till we stop feeding the beast cash..the beast will demand ever more blood..[yes its that simple]

look at how govt taxed smokes
first it bought up big on big tobacco/shares
in the lib investment and govt super fund

it then made shopkeeper collect ever more taxes
add in gst and wage taxes and super taxes

we see how clever the business of small business
collecting big govt taxes has become

but what can they do
they either do it or go bust

as for the ohm-bud's man
good luck with that lol

no-one polices rights
cause we dont got none
[for public servants if it not compulsory
its not allowed to be done]

we dont got rights
except one..[pay as you earn]
or go broke

thinker 2, as I understand it, the ATO issues new Award Rate Schedules each year, every employer is required to pay at that rate for that Industry/Employment Award Category, which is then set in the Payroll System. If the rate is not paid at the Award Rate, it will be automatically rejected by the ATO as none compliant with the Award Rate schedule.

We can only conclude therefore that your wife was in fact on the wrong Award Rate.

Before you take Belly’s advice and take the matter to Fair Work Australia you need to answer some questions,

Was her Award rate category correct and validated by her Union Rep?
Did the employer have the wrong rate on the Payroll System?
If wrong rate, why and how?
Why did your wife not know what her correct Award Rate was “for years”?
Did she take up the matter with her employer, if so, what resulted?
Why did her Union Rep. not look up her correct Award rate?
Why did the Union Rep. not take up the matter with the employer?
How long since her Union Rep. was advised?
How long did it take for her Union to fix the problem?
Is the problem now corrected?
What entitlements were recovered for her by the Union Rep.?
Does the Union Rep. still hold their Union position? If so why?

Once these questions are answered you can then focus upon any culpability of her employer and if necessary, FWA.

"...I work on an Easter Saturday for no pay..."

Why would you do that?

"...I work on an Easter Saturday for no pay..."

Why would you do that?

Because it is standard in my industry and accepted as part of our contracts Morganzola.

This is the very point I'm making. The proposition we accept is, "that we have the opportunity to earn extra income through commission". We have the privilege of being payed for individual productivity but not the actual time we spend doing it.

I am in retail sales and our payslips do not reflect the hours we work. This is standard procedure in my industry. Employers often claim that they are paying over the award in hourly rates. This is based upon payslips that do not reflect the actual hours an employee has worked.

The tendency is for employers to seek more individual productivity through higher targets and more free work hours. This trend means that the harder and longer you work does not necessarily translate into an improved quality of life or living standards.

This trend also means that staff can become embroiled (with little job security) in a revolving door syndrome of people whom are prepared to accept such work obligations, vying for positions that compare favourably with not having a job, but don't compare favourably with having a real job.

One that has provided an un-interupted Easter break (as per your entitlements) that you may be well enjoying with your family as we speak Morganzola.

It is a fact that no one is policing peoples work conditions anymore and that there is no instrument available for anyone who wants too, to utilise except as an individual. Therein lies the problem.

This is probably why my wife's union is asking her to write a letter to her employer herself about her and her co-workers situation. The Union appears to be making no attempt to make representations on behalf of their members or the others who are not union members. I can only assume from this, that the Union is powerless anyway, in this situation.

As for me, I remain grateful for the opportunity to make a living, as my incentive.

There is always the complaints process at Fair Work Australia.

http://www.fwa.gov.au/

The contact number is: 1300 799 675

There is also an online help/chat but check top right hand corner to see if it is open or closed. It was closed on posting this comment.

thinker 2,
Your experiences happen more than many people realise particularly among young people. Many not taking lunches or breaks in mainly hospitality positions or staying later than rostered without being paid because it would fall into overtime. Lunch breaks are still recorded but not compensated, because it would breach obligations if an audit was undertaken. Often what is on paper is not what really happens.

The real power lies with people if unemployment is low (as it is now). Resign if work practices are unfair and if it is easy to secure another suitable job, but I understand this is difficult if supporting a family or mortgage or both and the threat of unemployment may be significant to ensure one remains in less than satisfactory situations. Take from the jobs what you can, adding to your experience and move on to an employer that will value your contributions. They are out there, as an employee, shop around and ask all the right questions. Remember you also need a reference from previous employers which is why many people don't rustle feathers. I learnt that mistake the hard way.

The unions are more than useless under a Labor Government, they even got rid of the Forum on the ACTU 'Rights at Work' website once Labor was ensconced even though WorkChoices has gone, unfair practices still continue.

The unions will only really be a force for their members when unaffiliated with any political party. It is a huge conflict of interest.

on the topic of
*no one policing things

[let alone workers rights]

there are other things
it seems arnt bering policed
i see the sum total of this and that..as signs of bad govt

to wit
i heard on abc last night a throw-away line
about how methanol..[in the body]..
converts into formaldahyde
[killing people]..

and we got it in our fuel..
[govt MANDATED]..into our air

add this sort of stuff to govt duty
WHO IS POLICING THIS STUFF?

who is policing this *crime?
ripping off wages
is one thing..
[a sign]

BUT

how about this bit on fracking?
[did i spell that right]

http://www.realvail.com/article/603/DeGette-led-congressional-study-reveals-29-different-carcinogens-in-hydraulic-fracturing-fluid

DeGette-led congressional study
reveals 29 different carcinogens in hydraulic fracturing fluid

Between 2005 and 2009, the nation’s 14 leading natural gas drilling service companies used hydraulic fracturing fluids containing 29 different chemicals

regulated under the Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA)
as potential human carcinogens,..according to a new congressional report released Saturday.

Nationwide, the companies injected 11.4 million gallons of products containing at least one of the so-called BTEX chemicals (benzene, toluene, xylene, and ethylbenzene),

according to the report produced by Democrats on the Energy and Commerce Committee, including Colorado’s Diana DeGette. Colorado, along with Oklahoma and Texas, ranked in the top three for the highest volume of fluids containing possible carcinogens.


If it is in the ground,
eventually it is in the water.

WHO IS POLICING* IT
FOR THE WORKERS
or the people who will soon get it on their food
[from irrigation]

lest we forget
our power bills are doubling
as our wages keep reducing

to put in infastructure...for gas..
mainly produced by fracking
to put us to death?
by..1000 cuts

its not enough
they rip us off with wages
they are planning to kill us off with cancers..

poisening us slowly
recall the lead [making kids dumb]
well it was replaced by benzine..[a known carSINogene..]

anyhow there is worse things that low wages
or working for nothing..but its all

just govt doing what govts are told to do..
by their masters...[the invisable men..running the party machine men]

i worked for 3 months
at my last job..
commision only

its a hard road
but if we knew who was doing it
we could invert our 'bying'..to those only getting commision

but who to police the police

" I remain grateful for the opportunity to make a living, as my incentive"

It sounds to me more like exploitation than incentive, thinker 2. Thanks for explaining your situation more fully, but I'm wondering why you remain in it. Is work that hard to find that you'd do it for free over Easter? There's a guy on another thread who's complaining about having to pay penalty rates in his retail business on weekends and public holidays, and I thought that this was the norm in retail.

I'm retired now, but I've only "worked" for fair remuneration - if it wasn't I left and found another job. That's not counting voluntary stuff for community and environmental groups, but that's not what you're talking about, is it?

Come pelican please do not say that.
I am union till death.
Have traveled 6 hours for two members 6 to come home and stopped twice to see night shift traffic controllers.
OK yes some forget it is not about a car a salary and self promotion, even in my home the AWU.
But lets start to try to help.
Thinker 2 is getting advice, let me get in the way of some of it.
His wife will be sacked or persecuted if she asks her boss why.
FACT do not.
A single person joins a union for protection, not a dream of workers rights.
Too many[ and it hurts]do not get it,
My advice stands if she is in the union get them involved but be careful!judge your official, can you trust him/her,calm ex brothers I would put my life in the hands of all but a few AWU ones.
Act independently, go to the ombudsman, request in confidence, tell no one you have done this.
Not even your union.
Once unions had the solidarity to protect you mine still has, but remember hers can not get fair wages.
Her industry has no heart no intent to care its about money nothing else.
one in three are under paid some even paid under existing agreements/awards as kitchen hands or cleaners, fear controls most be aware protect your self but act.

Please don't take offence Belly. I know there are hard working union reps like you pounding the pavement and ensuring complaints are acted apon.

As you know I am pro-union and a member of my union. But not just for the sake of it, unions also need a kick up the bottom at times and reminded they work on behalf of members, not just another top heavy organisation intent on empire building and rorting the system with unreasonable claims when they have power and ignoring 'real' issues.

Many unionists now are using the route as a career step or inroad into the ALP and that in itself is not a bad thing - many people no matter their background might aspire to politics. Unions cannot be truly independent if they are affiliated with a political party, particularly one that purports to be pro-workers but acts very differently in policy and action. I almost did not join the union when I changed jobs recently as a protest that much of the union fees go to support a political party rather than back into the union to assist members or to reduce fees.

Despite the historical context regards the ALP, worker rights should not be at the behest of any one political party. Unions do their best work when they can confidently negotiate and interact with Conservatives, neo-liberals, Nationals, social democrats, public servants, corporations, Greens, socialists and independents.

No its not Morganzola, and thanks for picking up on that.

Truth is, I am in an older age group, with fewer alternatives than accepting the lot I have.
Moving is not the easy, nor is re-invention. Not in my eyes , but in the eyes of those whom might employ me.

But I do look forward to offering my natural and my acquired skills to my community later in life, if I can afford too.
Hope your having a useful and productive time in retirement Morganzola.

Personally I would retire straight away if I could , just so I could get on with the things that I am actually best, at.

That horizon is disappearing into the distance. This is the primary driver for my original post, not our individual situation.
Surely this is happening to most people isn't it ?. No one actually know's, because no one is policing rights, a regulatory desert slanted,
in the direction of the powerful at best.

The result being, declining living standards for most people.

We think much a like pelican you and I and I have to remember my words shouldn't be used to take aim at my life's work.
For a great many years,first in 1961 I was union delegate.
I knocked back the chance to become an official, twice.
Thinking I was not good enough, it proved to be wrong,in comparison to some I was a star.
I love the AWU,never was an Iron worker just AWU will be till death proudly.
Too many ex officials work now[ not AWU all unions]for bosses or labor hire firms.
too many find ways to use the job for personal gain, a few took bribes.
My AWU started the ALP has great history within the party.
My mates/members would be better for it if we cut ties FOR EVER with all party's, front benches in EVERY ALP government have done it to us.
Union power should only be in the best hands AND NEVER USED FOR OTHER THAN MEMBERS INTEREST'S.
I ran headlong in to an ego, as fixed on self and blind to members as I ever saw.
if that had not taken place I would have been glad to die one day on the road from one meeting to another driving a old Ute or car,no free lunch's.
But I lived the unionists dream, had the chance to tell a bad boss to take his job and well we know the rest.
I must have done something right, never had the good by party but even today my phone will ring ,a mate for life from my old members will ring I value them still.
unions must remember why we exist it never will be to dump failure from he movement in to Parliament to fail there too.

I must apologise to all who posted to this post by pointing out that I was mistaken about $8-9 dollars an hour . It should have read $8-9 dollars a week.

Makes it even more reprehensible and economically damaging when combined with inflation caused by energy and fuel prices rising at alarming rates by the weakening of Trade Practice's laws in this country and disadvantageous Workplace laws (as evidenced above) still in practice.

Tony Abbott points at the carbon tax and says, look at the added pressure on peoples living costs. But of course the real inflationary pressure is coming from the lawless consumer environment created by ideologues not dissimilar to Abbott himself, resulting in privatised utilities and essential energy suppliers charging what they like, in a free for all.

Also and including the current Gov't, I repeat my assertion, that no one is policing this area.

If I were to consider my own employment prospects; they would be limited in future, by how much I can afford to pay for fuel for my vehicle, and the fact that there is no pay rise on the horizon to compensate for the rise in my costs.

Conversely my employer whom might think, he is on a good wicket by being in a position to control or limit my income, may have to be content with "someone who can afford to work there" as opposed, to the best or most productive person for the job.

With or without a union, this is economic lunacy that will result in the economy eventually descending into an irretrievable class war, or belittling matey matey system, if it hasn't or isn't already.

>>There's a guy on another thread who's complaining about having to pay penalty rates in his retail business on weekends and public holidays, and I thought that this was the norm in retail.

Now that's a bit of a 'cheap shot'. Mongz

I am not complaining about having to pay PR, more so that I am not entitled to charge the customer for my out of pocket expenses generated from public holidays.

May I suggest you get your facts right.

Now T2, you are going to have to provide more info.

Yourself in retail.

Firstly, are you on salary?

Now even if you are your salary must pass the no disadvantage test, so, if you work Easter sat for no pay, then you would have already been paid for it along the way.

BTW, you are also working in an industry that is close to being on its knees, unless you work for the big two.

I would suggest you be grateful for the fact you have a job, however, according to madam PM, there are jobs everywhere, so your options are plentiful. (apparently!)

I just read your last post>>Conversely my employer whom might think, he is on a good wicket by being in a position to control or limit my income, may have to be content with "someone who can afford to work there" as opposed, to the best or most productive person for the job.

Now there's the catch.

As a retailer, the last thing I would do is under pay my best workers as they are very hard to find and even harder to keep as they are constantly poached from you.

Are you a good worker, or do you just think you are?

Now if you are then I suggest you call the bosses bluff.

He/she will not let a good worker go for the sake of a few bucks.

On the contrary Rehctub, I have let them know. But they would not act unless I vote with my feet. The only way too do this is to have another position organised prior to negotiation.

Because they can, they may act out of spite and let you go if you insist upon pay adjustments to compensate for rising costs or inflation.

Promises made during the original negotiation referred to reviews re salary and company cars etc. These reviews never come for anyone unless they have done as I suggest.

Rather than play a game of truth or dare with my employer Rehctub, I would rather have a relationship based on communication, mutual loyalty and mutual respect etc.

This type of thinking such as the "if your any good routine" that that you extol in your post Rehctub, displays the natural superiority that you assume, just because your the employer.

Fact is some people are smarter, more talented, intelligent than you are Rehctub even though they don't own a business. Their priorities extend beyond the accrual of personal wealth or power and the problem for employers is keeping them interested.

Even the priorities of business itself and it's value to society as a cornerstone is massively overblown.

Thanks Rechtub your uninformed comments in that last post made me chuckle.
But I agree in this case you do not appear to be debating penalty rates
Now thinker 2, two tests, in fact three are to be passed.
Most importantly the one that rules is will the office of fair work Australia even glance at your agreement.
60/40 CHANCE 60 AGAINST UNLESS.
b.o.o.t. test, Better off Over all.
If rights are taken away, you must pass BOOTS TEST.
So as a single. or even multiple employee you should do this.
notify FWA you feel isolated and threatened.
Arrange for them to see the law is applied, that you have the document long before it is signed of on.
Tell FWA you demand not to be named.
A good and honest boss would fix it you and I know some are not so good.
I am prepared to offer you any advice you need free and give you the right to get my e mail from GY.
It takes guts but if you only act in fairness at all times you will be protected by the system but acting has to be first step.

T2>>Because they can, they may act out of spite and let you go if you insist upon pay adjustments to compensate for rising costs or inflation.

See, you want a pay rise just because times are tough. Just remember, times may also be tough for your employer, however you have not told us whether they are large or small.

Wages, like any expense, comes out of profits and, if profits are down, how can you expect to have a bonus, simply because it's getting tough to live.

Now as for your shot at me, well, I have had a few workers who are better than I was. But, at the end of the day, if you are good at what you do and you do provide the employer with value for money, then you should have little problem in either getting a better deal, or finding a better employer, as good workers are getting harder to find.

Belly>>It takes guts but if you only act in fairness at all times you will be protected by the system but acting has to be first step.

That's good advice. I hate employers who rip staff off, just as much as I hate lazy workers who do the same.

I am a pretty hard boss as I am extremely fussy, however, I do pay well for the right person and the wrong people simply don't have a job with me.

I select the best and pay them well.

BTW, you have six years to make a claim. Why on earth you have waited nine is beyond me.

My advise is simplar to bellies. Bring it to your bosses attention but make sure you have real facts, not just assumptions.

A reasonable boss will listen to your concerns as we know that to go against FWA usually costs a grand or two, and that's if we are in the right.

No costs for thinker 2 to take it to FWA if it was as you say unionism would be the answer.
Many bosses are very good blokes,after so many years my guess is this bloke is not one of them.
DO NOT GO TO HIM, such victimize and find ways to get rid of you.
Act with honesty but act,such a boss can not be trusted.
B O O T test is the rule use it

Of course the core of your argument is sound Rehctub and I very much appreciate both your, and Bellys advice. But fundamentally, I am referring to the underlying principal structure that my father fought for and believed in. Things he considered sacrosanct.

And I am sure as an employer Rehctub that you are both fair and demanding. As an employee I would appreciate these qualities. In fact consider them tantamount in a good relationship.

Strangely in my own life, it has been my own decision making that has served me worst.

Once I was offered a job by a major publisher to do what it is that I actually do best. I knocked it back. Even to this day I have an inherent ability to do this thing I do best.
(it's a long story) I won't bore you with it.

My skill or inherent talent can be converted into productivity in other things that I am not so good at. Even things that I am quite poor at Rehctub, things I do in what is euphemistically titled "a day job" in order that someone else's understanding of my best interests/attributes can be served. Despite all of this wasted time and confusion , I still perform in a productivity sense, "above the average".

I don't claim to understand , how any of this works ? or really care that much. But I would love in a perfect world , more time to do what it is, that I do best.

I would have no chance being able to do the things I have to do, on a daily basis, without the support of those around me.

As I said Rehctub, my own decision making has prevented me from doing the thing I do best. I've had the opportunity.

con't...

My employers during the "fish out of water phase" in my own life that I now experience, have been mostly supportive and understanding. I do indeed understand, where it is, your coming from Rehctub.

But for those without talent (or notable talent), it is still important to preserve their standard of living.
They are a large, an essential part of the economic fabric.

I still think that changes made by Howard are producing a lowest common denominator effect in our economy.
Job conditions worsening (as evidenced by the offshore rig marine painting scandal) or ( the Toorak couple that had been massively underpaying employees, in chain stores, whilst living in up, in a lap of luxury).

Prices "without attachment to costs" in fact with no apparent set of rules, continue to rise dramatically without any carbon tax bogey,
and will continue to do so until somebody puts a stop to it.

The gap between the haves and the have nots, is widening exponentially.
But more damaging, an even smaller number of "have mores" are having more than ever,
without any obvious justification or social benefit to the fabric as a whole.

Ah belly, union thuggery at its best. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Remember T2, we are talking about 24 cents per hour underpayment. Very easy to make this mistake.

I think bellys last post is the main cause of why bosses hate unions.

There is a chance that your boss is unaware of any under payment, esspecially given that it represents about 24 cents per hour on a 38 hour week.

I still suggest you speak to them, however, nine years is a very long time to have left this unchallenged.

To the best of my knowledge you have six years to make a claim.

My suggestion is you offer a settlement to your boss of six years.

I say this may be an oversight because of the complexity of our wage system. Believe me, it is a nightmare to navigate through and even when you call for assistance from the authorities, such advise can also be wrong as even the ombudsman can't always interpret the awards correctly.

In fact, we had a case where they threatened us with legal action as they had stated we had under paid causals.

They claimed that a casuals overtime rate should be loading added to their normal casual rate, but we had to go to huge lengths to prove them wrong and we receive nothing for our out of pocket expenses for proving our innocence. Another grand or so wasted due to incompetence in the public service.

Now as a final point of interest, are you a smoker and did you take smoke breaks in addition to normal breaks?

Now if you did, do you think those smoke breaks were worth the $1.80 per day you were underpaid?

To extrapolate in the equal and opposite direction Rehctub the amount being, actually 30c an hour, gives a clearer picture of what it is, that is actually occurring here.

This mistake to which you refer Rehctub, to the employee, is about $570 a year in lost income/entitlements and continues with no solution in sight. At the income level that I am talking about Rehctub, this is a crisis, when you are trying to deal with the increases in fuel and energy/essential services at the same time.

I propose to you, that there should be a restoration of rights, particularly in the workplace, where people are working more and more hours for less and less rewards. With a continuing and reducing capacity to service their own personal debt through hard work.

"The incentive" can no longer realistically be, eventual freedom from the treadmill.
Most working people "in this country" today, will never experience financial freedom.
Most may not even own a home, ever.

Having said this I will continue to point out, that no one in Govt today of either political persuasion is ensuring, through law, or enforcement of any such law, the rights that preserve living standards, anymore.

The Australian dream is a lost treasure of a past life, something for future generations to worship, or aspire too perhaps ?.
Or could we do something about reversing this trend.

By at least policing what remains, at best a tattered set of instruments left since the Howard reign.

T2, you can thank labor for your inability to fight for your rights as it was they who invented fair work Aust, with one of the changes being (something like) you have no representation as an individual, so you must take legal action yourself. So much for nobody being worse off.

Now without knowing what it is you do it is impossible to help.

I also note you have no answered my question about smoking.

A few more points of interest.

Have you used the work Internet to send/receive personal emails?

.... surf the net?

Now if you have, was this part of your entitlements.

Now if you have, and it was not, then was your use worth $9 per week?

Remembering that the word 'use' also includes your paid time.

Your employer
Many people today are quick to point out that they are doing it tough, and they are, myself included.

So, do you think your boss has done it tough during the past few years?

Has he/she sold assets, or borrowed more against them to secure financing for the business? Which, by the way has secured jobs.

Most small businesses are doing it very tough, with the exception of those who outsource their labor to OS countries.

I have a mate who works for a firm that pays a wage, plus bonuses. They are not making the profits and the bonuses are not flowing.

Funny thing is, he wasn't complaining when business was booming.

At the end of the day you appear to lack confidence in your own ability, otherwise you would simply attack this issue without fear of loosing your job.

At worst, a good boss would realise their error and come to an arrangement to repay what they owe you.

On the other hand, if you have taken smoke breaks and or used the Internet during work time, then perhaps you should say to yourself, fair enough!

Now Rechtub in a lot of your threads more of your posts your failure to understand is highlighted.
I had gathered thinker 2 was 1 employed by a bad threatening boss
2 WAS NOT A UNIONIST.
Now every day,yes every one, I met victims like this.
One of ten thousand cases,
A father, not a unionist put his hand on my shoulder can we talk after the game?
Never knew him it was NRL said ok bloke, not wearing my dragons shirt union one.
This followed his son,not yet 16 was working in a fencing firm.
Under paid over worked and being abused,yes hands on abuse.
Dad wanted his son to have a job, but wanted something done.
I inspected that shop union thuggery at its worst.
Made it look like a blow in thing ,only me to blame.
4 kids told of being bashed even painted at work, by the boss and his Hench men.
No one joined the union , no one was sacked and the very grubby boss did not go to court.
He bought uniforms and boots gave an undertaking he would never let it happen, thugs yes mate you go off don't you.
If your boss is ok thinker 2 ALWAYS START THERE,if working for Rechtub NEVER let him know act behind his back always.
Any boss I ever met who said my door is always open had no Friends in his workers.
PS Dad was a Knight fan my dragons won fees paid in full.

Belly, my current boss is a nice bloke but the industry and its entrenched sanctified by the industry body contracts are unfair and weighted against an employee's rights.

The key to this is that there has never been union representatation in the workplace in this industry. We operate on individual contracts that allow for 16 unpaid work hours each and ever week.

No Govt will fix this inc the current Fair Work people, but it was Howard that destroyed peoples rights in the Workplace. The current Govt has not done enough to reverse the damage. So now most people are on unfairly weighted open ended individual contracts and unions are for all intensive purposes powerless to act or assist.

Trying to pretend that this has something to do with Labor is just plain dishonest Rehctub ,an attempt to mislead, that is what that is.

Howards body told me that it was all illegal and I had the right to take each one of my employers to court at a rate of $33000 a case per claim cost to myself. I felt so priviledged when I was told this.(sarcasm)

The balance has been destroyed and the consensus of productivity, between workers and employers is a distant memory of the Hawke/Keating Era.

Suspicion and conflict now exists between the parties and as evidenced by the current Patrick's situation, we don't seem to have made a lot of progress. The unions are currently pointing at Patrick's safety record and stalling tactics , whilst Patrick's point at their bottom line. What's next a new round of attack dogs ?.

Workers have no safety net of increases in wages commensurate with the rate of inflation to compensate for the increasing cost of living set in their Awards anymore. These types of of mutual understandings are a simplistic, but effective way of keeping business people honest, for mine. And they preserve living standards for most people.

So much for the lawless environment we experience industrially and as consumers. So little accountability from Gov't will continue the whittling away of living standards, for most people as each day passes. And you reckon your doing it tough Rehctub.

T2, are you working on the walf?

I can't continue on this unless I know what you do.

Now, as for the relationship between workers and employers, well most of that damage was caused by keating, with his introduction of unfair dismissal. I still say today that these laws caused irreparable damage and cost a lot of jobs.

Howard watered down these laws and there is a definite link between the 'boom times' and this watering down, as what it did was installed confidence for bosses.

Now labor, once elected took a big stick to bosses and reintroduced these laws, at a time where we were already under pressure from the GFC. At our hour of need, they made employing harder. Go figure!

Now while I accept that workchoices was unfair to some, I don't believe that anyone who was good at their job was effected as if they were they would simply move on as there were plenty of options out there at the time.

Cont.

T2.You say>>Trying to pretend that this has something to do with Labor is just plain dishonest Rehctub

It was labor who brought in fair work aust, so it is they who are to blame for these changes. Like it or not. I remember a thread where I warned of this at the time.

They took away the right for individuals to object and made it such that they had to take legal action instead.

Belly would know more on this.

You say its tough.
Now just consider this. Workers have had several pay increases in the past four years, yet many small employers have either gone belly up, or, like myself have borrowed to keep the business afloat.

Now of cause people say, why not get out. Boy if it was that easy.

We have leases, loans etc, that in most cases tie your house up, so we can't just get out.

Many bosses today work for less than their staff, but they are trapped.

Do you think that is fair, that workers get pay increases, just because its tough, while bosses at best work for much less, or at worst loose their homes?

Tourism, small retail and hospitality are all facing ruin as their days are numbered. Expenses are simply out of control.

We even get charged each time you wash your hands or flush the toilet.

I said to a mate the other day that we are possibly the last generation of small business people.

I say this as most of the next generation either don't own a house for security, or, they won't put up with the hassle.

My lease runs out in less than 18 months and unless I get some serious incentive from the LL, that will be the end for me.

I will retire into a cushy job on $85 to $100K without the hassle.

I am afraid to say this, but it's all coming to an end, and you can quote me on that.

I'm in the car trade Rehctub.

I'm sure Belly would know as you say Rehctub, but I myself have intimate knowledge on this subject. I did approach Workchoices at the time, through my local member about unpaid work hours. Their reply in writing explained that the work practices I described were illegal and it was my right to pursue them. At my cost.

Previously I could have approached the Union relevant to my industry and Arbitration would have sorted these matters for free. The onus is upon myself to produce the evidence and to some extent always was in a totally non- union workplace. Every pay slip I have ever received in the car trade, says I have worked 38 hrs, even though I have worked approx 56 hrs. How can I supply evidence.

I must stress that these long hrs are because of the operating hours of the business, our contractual obligations, not because of customers.

Motor trade contracts institutionalise 16 -20 unpaid work hours per week.
In fact most of the time is spent waiting or searching for customers.

I do agree that the small business era is over. We see evidence of this with major corporates taking over the Retail sector, pricing competition out of the market. Another piece of evidence of the damage done to trade practice and consumer protection laws.
It is your corporate overlord that will decide the fate of your small business Rehctub, not the amount of money you spend preserving the living standards of your employees.

The work practices I describe above are illegal even now, but no one in Gov't will make them stop doing it.

You could be worse off than this and be employed on a casual basis, have no holiday or sick leave, penalty rates or job security, or be a guest worker on an offshore oil rig , painting for $3 an hour, while your corporate employer claims to not be the one employing you and therefore not breaking any laws. (Although there has been legal action about this one).

The balance is not right now.

thinker 2 Rechtub is the homing pidgin that never quite makes it home on subjects like IR.
First in truth you should talk to Union,yes they will ask you to join.
FWA is not the Howard foolishness, not in any way fair and balanced but not useless.
It is my belief no costs to you comes from contacting the workplace Ombudsman.
If you are billed get to a union! I would have killed for such an account/theft just for asking for a fair go.
Now important! your contract or agreement ,when was it signed.
If it ran out by now, post Howard's law, you must be.
consulted and informed in writing before it is registered.
if not it is not a legal document.
Rechtub, you get heated about your over heads your wages bill every thing.
Tell me
please
why do you question thinkers 2 rights to fair work conditions?
tell me mate what makes you tic?

T2, you say >>At my cost.

Something that labor set up but I did warn you all.

Now I am assuming you sell cars.

Well, most car sales positions (QLD) pay a 'base wage' plus a commission on the cars they sell. Right?

They also don't get paid for Saturdays, it's an 'unwritten law', however, it is also usually the best day of the week and you are more likely to sell more cars this day which equals more commission.

How am I going so far?

Now, if you can't sell cars because the boss is not running his/her business well, then go elsewhere as good sales people are hard to find and even harder to keep. So if you are good, then there are plenty of jobs out there.

Now I note you have avoided the questions about the personal use of the bosses time and computer.

Would you like to answer this?

And belly, I know IR laws pretty well as I am one who has to provide a profitable business which in turn provides the very jobs that you lot are out to protect.

Perhaps you may also be interested in T2's answers, if he/she chooses to answer them.

In the interim, are you suggesting that me asking if there was any private use of bosses time and computer in Lu of the $9 per week was in any way unfair.

If you are then you are definitely a 'one eyed' unionist through and through.

Give and take is a two way street, don't you think?

thinker 2
You can still make a claim with FWA via a signed Statutory Declaration that you have worked more hours than those marked on your pay slip.

You can also garner support and signed witness statements from other workers including past employees if some can be found.

Some legal firms will do pro bono or 'don't win don't pay' type arrangements but be careful to know what the final fee might be as it might take up most of your payout unless the Court awards legal costs to the loser.

I'd answer your response with absolutely no fear or favour Rehctub.
Thanks for your advice and input Pelican.

Firstly you make it sound like working Saturday for no pay is a privilege or choice I'm making. But of course I have no choice in the matter.Now we work Sundays with similar conditions.

I have no choice but to accept the payslip weekly in which the detail regarding the hours I have worked is falsified.

I've had to accept that my commissions attracted no super payments until recently when the Rudd/Gillard Govt forced motor trade employers to pay super on commissions. In the past you were only payed super on your falsified 38 hr payslip.

Another component in my current situation, is that a delivery target set monthly can and does exclude me from payment of commission for cars I have sold at all, should this target not be reached.

Another uncomfortable fact for you Rehctub will be, that should I take time off for any reason other sickness or leave, that would be extracted from the 38 hrs on my pay slip, not given back in lieu of any unpaid hrs I may have worked.

Considering the 16 to 20 hrs a week that goes unpaid each and every week, any time spent on non work related things during the hrs I am being paid is not a matter of give and take, but in fact way out of whack. Our internet usage is monitored by geeks and filters, and the very truths I am extolling during this post may well cost me my job no matter how good I am at selling cars Rehctub.

This of course would be totally unfair dont you think Rehctub, so instead of asking for some balance just answer Belly's question about why you object to person asking for their due entitlements.

And finally to state that the current "at your own cost" industrial system has any thing to do anyone other than John Howard is just wrong,deceptive or a deliberate attempt to mislead.

when i learned real estate
i learned all about ral estate
in other words learned to recognise value

thinker you know about cars
dont get your commision..in cash
get it in cars..tradeins

[that you know can/could bring in..more than the wage]

from what i hear[and see]
many are sold for scrap or wrecking
you can buy them[sorry get them at cost]
then either sell the parts yourself...

[the bits are worth more than the whole]
its a matter of working smarter..not harder
[tell the boss you will do those 'hard times']
for free..and take your return in trade

the other 'easy' days..let your fellow workers do them
[while your on selling your trade..for income]

do what you know to do..better
[sorry if i sound trite..i know working smarter worked for me]

Pelican, advice such as yours is the very reason why many small employers no longer employ. It's all just to hard.

T2>>.Now we work Sundays with similar conditions.

Car yards are not allowed to trade Sundays in QLD, so can't help you.

>>I have no choice but to accept the payslip weekly in which the detail regarding the hours I have worked is falsified.

My mate pays a fixed salary, about $600 net, plus super. Then he pays a com on any cars sold.

His guy generally nets about $1500 per week. Not a bad earn for zero risk hey! Unless you consideryour time as a risk.

May I suggest that you are either unhappy with a wage plus com, or, you are simply unable to sell cars which makes you feel you are underpaid.

Best option is to move on!

Now as for this change of the law, it was built in to the new FWA legislation

I guess we have to disagree on this Rehctub, but you would have to admit the my example does illustrate, that no one is policing rights in the workplace, because the practices I have described are even illegal now, built upon some fundamental quality of life issues such as the 38 hr week.

These fundamentals are still the right of any working person, because we are all entitled to a life Rehctub. Things you feel entitled too as a business person, are not your entitlements to feel in the first place.

And regarding the over all effect of a fair renumeration and conditions system, it is increased productivity and loyalty, that is the reward for the employer, not the satisfaction of being the one who gets to stay home with his family on a Sunday, whilst those he employs continues too toil.

The centralised arbitration system was dismantled by the Howard Govt along with rights to strike and/or collectively bargain. This system was replaced with a system of compulsory individual contracts, in which workers were expected to trade of benefits, wage and job security for minuscule increases in hourly rates.

Living standards are guaranteed to deteriorate, as this self regulated system continues.

As is the case with the regulatory body dealing with the communications industry, they are now fed up with the disgraceful treatment of customers by privatised suppliers of phone and internet services. The public have been sold a crock in privatisation, and now the industry regulator is advocating the restoration of stringent regulations in this industry.

So too are workers fed up with the uncertainty of their future coupled with rising fuel energy/prices. Living standards decrease as we speak Rehctub.

Before the Howard years Rehctub your first social responsibility was to the maintenance people who work for you, not your creditors, as would have been the case if you became insolvent. Now the employees get to pick over the bones after the creditors have recovered their losses. The new idea is that "the few should have precedence over the many".
I am not comfortable with this notion Rehctub.

T2, as you seem reluctant to answer a few simple questions, please answer these.

When you entered your job, were you aware that you would receive a 'minimum wage' plus commission on the cars you sold?

You say you have been under paid by some $3,900. $9 per week, 48 weeks per year, 9 years.
Assuming your commission per car averaged $100, you would have only had to sell 39 cars in your entire nine years, that's 4.3 cars PER YEAR, or one car every 84 days.
So,during your nine years, has the 'collective' commission you have earned made up for the $9 per week you claim to have been under paid?

Now I would suggest that if you only managed to sell one car every 84 days, then you have been a dismal failure at your job and that in fact, you have been a drain on your boss.

I would further suggest that if you were such a poor salesman, then your boss would have welcomed your resignation, at any time, with open arms, as you were in fact occupying a position that many good salesman would have begged for.

I would further suggest that if you do move on, then please don't take a role that relies on your ability to sell in order for you to earn a decent income as it would appear you are simply not cut out for this.

I am still mystified as to why you continued down this path for nine years, knowing full well you were not succeeding.

Now had you a good salesman, you would have been regarded as 'an assett' and you would have either been paid a S-load, or you would have been poached from another dealer.

Finally, you forget that employers are workers as well. Only thing is, they rely on you doing your job well in order for them to get a return on their investment and provide them with a decent standard of living.

Unfair dismissal changed many things and protected many workers who prior to would have been sacked at a hear beat.

Sorry Rehctub but you have my job and my wifes job mixed up in your haste to personally deride and insult me.

My job involves 20 hrs a week in unpaid working hrs at the pitiful award rate of $14.50 hr, my pay falls short of my award payments at a rate of $290 a week over 28 yrs in the business. This amounts to a gross accumulated underpayment of $422,240.00, without consideration of the losses in super along the way. All of which I was legally entitled to receive, regardless of whether I was good or not good at the job.

If I may offer an analogy. If employers in general at the end of a working week went to their workers and said,Oh by the way, I know you have worked 40 hrs but I am only going to pay you for 25, the streets would be full of protesters demanding the heads of their employers.

Maybe this analogy helps even someone with limits in cognisance such as yourself understand the basics we are talking about here.

Yes well, not sure what happened there, please axcept my appologies.

Absolutely Rehctub, and thanks for your acknowledgement.

I must say, that in a workplace, my primary prerequisite to happiness, is being part of a team, fitting in, working in ethical environments, where customers and employee's are treated with similar respect, are the most satisfying of workplaces. Non-communicative and confrontational management styles are counter-productive if your looking at it from the managed side.

In a truly progressive environment Rehctub, I would wish that it would be understood better "that all people come with a skill set". If we could harness the best skills in the people in our organisations instead of making them do the things we perceive they should be doing,(a little less I mean), we would find out more about the people we employ , get to know them better.

Because everyone want's to genuinely contribute to something they all believe in.

Excuse me for preaching a little on this Rehctub, but I do value and enjoy discussion with you

cheers T2

T2, I had an experience in the mid 80's, while managing what was then the largest retail meat outlet in Brisbane. I was 24 and somewhat out of my depth, managing some 25 butchers and 17 girls, however I was and always have been one who is willing to bring the best out of my staff.

There was a guy who was a less than average butcher, however he was your typical 'class clown', so, I created a new role for him, that was to promote and liaise with out customers.

His new role involved dressing as a 'beach bum', complete with hat, sunnies, zinc cream and thongs and he would walk around the customer area talking to customers and generally promoting our products over the PA.

The results were simply amazing as we increased our turnover from around $60,000 per week, up to $95,000 per week, within four to five weeks.

Ironically, the other butchers all complained to the store manager, as they were of the opinion that he was being over paid as he was not butchering.

Despite many attempts to convince the powers to be that we should keep him on, even to the point that I suggested he be employed under a different category, he was sacked and, as our sales declined, some of the butchers who had stuck the knife in, so as to speak, lost their jobs.

Even today, I have a guy who is an average butcher, but has great people skills, so his role is similar to this guys.

The moral of the story is that successful bosses are those who can think outside the square, as such.

Good anecdote Rehctub and I do of course agree with you.

What I have been trying to do with this post Rehctub, is point out the long term effect that failing to enforce entitlements, or not policing rights. This has lots of negative affects on all of us.

As this continues employers, who are the pillars of society, become less competitive. Their competitors whom take advantage of staff by making their workplace more exploitive and therefore reducing wages cost, create a rolling lowest common denominator factor, driving wages down and conditions backwards.

I dont think this is good for the economy Rehctub and bad for morale in general.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

""The results were simply amazing
as we increased our turnover from around $60,000 per week,
up to $95,000 per week,...within four to five weeks.""

ok first thing..clearly
the extra 35.000 bucks
involved the meat cutters...and packers
and counter staff...work more..

than half as much*
as they had to work
making 60,000 of meat to sell

clearly a bonus was called for
[share the proffits]

but no

""Ironically,the other butchers all complained""

hopw copme we are doing his job
and then doing extra work...too
[were working the work of 40 men]

""to the store manager""

your still paying the same rent
and were still getting the same pay

the new car you bought last week
we own a share..,if you knew about fair

""as they were of the opinion
that he was being over paid
as he was not butchering.""

point out to him
he has incrased their work
but not their wage..

it wasnt the spruiker
but the boss