There has been Orkopoulos in NSW, the SA MP, the Wollongong council and many more Labor MPs involved in crime, sleaze and general malfeasance.

Are these the real labor values, and are the populist slogans they spout on Jobs, social justice etc simply populist blurb to get them elected?

I would rather have a catholic priest look after my children, than Labor look after my country.

That's an appalling allegation - even for a reich-wing cheerleader like yourself, Shadow Minister.

Like Mr Rabbit you seem to be clutching at every possible straw to justify your own political aims but you certainly won't be winning over any new converts on that basis.

You conveniently neglected to mention the chair-sniffing, serial driving offending, allowance rorting former WA Liberal leader.

Rache,

I haven't dealt with all the outright criminal activities let alone the instances of inappropriate behaviour.

Try Juliar's use of the air force jet to go to a party fund raiser, Iguana gate, Juliar's complete lack of ethics in simply ditching an election promise when it was inconvenient, etc.

There is not enough space for labor antics, surely you could do better than that?

This Shadow Minister is in my view an insult to free speech.
I on seeing the thread took it for granted it would be from another, a person being treated for mental health issues.
First this, ANY pedophile has in my view given up the right to live freely among us, prison should be mandatory and 5 years the minimum to be served.
As honest people know, Church's Scouts military , EVERY WALK OF LIFE has infestations of such,even our police forces.
I have no idea what the latest charges come from, we may well break the law in mentioning it.
But little doubt the police got it right.
To drag politics this low is defamation.
I have said this before but just MUST say it once more.
That grubby ALP member for Swansea is in the right place prison.
On being unmasked some one else said Labor was a party of pedophilia, and that I was one too.
Think about it.
I complained and GY said this* I have thought long and hard about it, given the behavior of your party, but as it named you it was taken down*
KNOW Shadow Minister this, I without flinching, or second thought would use my knife just as freely as turning a stallion into a gelding on any who did such things.
Gays are human beings some even in your party you plumb the depths here!
Ban me for life GY but no retreat this hight lights a growing lack of balance in Australian politics to see such as this mans post history get so very low.
Allan Bell Proud to fight for an Australia that never supports such hate in print!

shadlow.. this is a serious issue
needing clear heads...not 'd' heads

both parties are corrupt
the lib/nats/greens[one nation]
are just more clever..in hiding it

party loyalty is the real problem
much party loyalty is bought by the free availability and acces to children..there is nothing like having the dirt on someone to buy party loyalty

the whole system is set up for that
they steal poor peoples kids..thenm deliver them to judges po-lies police in com cars...got a child minding agency that is a private corperation..with this system the run both parties members

party loyalists is the name of the game
we got the dirt on you..we have your vote

the jail times for pedophilies[meaning child-lover]
is patheticly low..because the judges hearing apeals..have been subverted by their child perversions[guilt]..as well

the problem is in locking them up
they get time to network
plan

take some of the recent issues
there is an inquiry..

but they cant find one to charge
[see one steals the kid..
then pased the kid down the line
one did the murder..another made the snuff film
another got rid of the body..[cause he likes em dead]

the whole issue is sickening

but..till the relitivly..innocent..
get sepperated from the truely/guilty..truely vile
the two party ignorances..goes on

accross multinational bounds*
children are the true currency of perversion...
its easy to get a free trade agreement..if you got the dirt on em

send them to hell
both the parties..and their patsies

*ignorance is the great enabler
the truth hurts*

The vast majority of the military are decent human beings, yet the head of the military college is on enforced leave based on the poor behaviour of a few very new cadets, and the whole military "culture" is under attack for the attitudes that allow this to occur.

Similarly, Whilst I believe that the majority of Labor party members are not crooks or paedophiles, the laissez faire attitude encourages this to happen. The only commandment is the 11th "thy shalt not be caught".

Belly,

Whilst you complain about the bully tactics of some of the union thugs you have dealt with, I doubt you have ever moved against them.

We shadow minister spoke about that cartoon about engineers, you reminded me it had been around for a long time.
I concede the point,it however has relevance here.
You start a thread, once again that has an infamous title and intent.
Then confronted by me and others you change the subject, twist and turn but change totally.
Sir IF you are in fact the owner of such a title you very much prove that cartoons intent.
Engineers hold skills that are not used in people management or project management, they lack totally almost every time,the skills needed for the job they hold.
YESTERDAY one of south east Asia's and Australia's biggest construction company's,you may well work for them rang me.
The head of IR wanted to convey the best wishes of the project manager of this areas biggest new project.
He is no fan of unions, but has time and again seen me go fiercely head to head at mass meetings with the CFMEU,a union dragging the whole movement down.
I may have fought them and such as them as much as bad bosses they force membership bribes are requested and lie to members use safety as a tool.
Their ex members make up the best delegates I gained and remain My lifetime Friends,can you say that about those you work with?
Yet mate just maybe I respect them more than I do you, yet that is true of almost any one.
Review your post title,tell me you have any class any at all.
It is my privilege to stand against such as you till death, if my IQ is not better than those two posts I should be ashamed.
OUG? what has that got to do with hate posts like this?

Shadow Minister

Someone trashed my letterbox recently, must've been the Labor Party.

How do your discussions get approval?

If the rants by Shadow Minister are permitted to provide 'balance' - WTF are we balancing?

Deep breaths, everybody!

I am on Twitter as 'ForrestGumpp'. I don't 'tweet' much. I don't have many 'followers'. Nor do I 'follow' many others, as my primary interest in Twitter has always been its usefulness as an alternative channel of communication whereby I can advise OLO of any problems I find the site may be experiencing. I do, however, follow 'Vexnews', because, for whatever reason, Vexnews once first followed me.

Vexnews tweeted this sometime on 21 April: http://twitter.com/#!/vexnews/status/60838799197995009 . The link the tweet contained was to the Wiki entry for Bernard Finnegan, the last line of which said he had resigned.




News or innuendo, I wondered?




The following paragraph appeared in a 22 April online news item by Phillip Coorey:

"Mr Rann cut short a trip to Melbourne
to return to Adelaide yesterday, where
he announced that Bernard Finnigan, the
acting police minister, had resigned.
The reasons for his resignation cannot
be published for legal reasons. He resigned
from the cabinet and executive council."

See: http://www.smh.com.au/national/resignation-fuels-fears-of-nsw-repeat-for-sa-labor-20110421-1dqmm.html

From a 21 April online news item from The Age, we learn that Bernard Finnegan was elected to the SA upper house in 2006, and, seemingly, remains government leader in that House. See: http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/sa-premier-announces-minister-has-resigned-20110421-1dpp4.html . We learn from this item that, apart from being Acting Police Minister at the time of his resignation, Bernard Finnegan also held the three Ministerial portfolios of Industrial Relations, State-local government Relations, and Gambling.

This link gives some background as to why the MP arrested cannot be named: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/why-the-mp-charged-with-alleged-child-pornography-offences-cannot-be-named/story-e6frea83-1226042738877

This online news item, by unidentified 'Staff reporters' of The Australian, appeared yesterday 21 April 2011: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/sa-premier-mike-rann-shocked-at-mps-child-porn-arrest/story-e6frg6nf-1226042909975 . It included this paragraph:

"The Premier returned to Adelaide early
today following the charging of the MP
last night for alleged possession of child
pornography after police raided his home
and seized two computers."

How to join up all these dots correctly? Can I suggest there may be value in looking beyond the immediate presumption of guilt so seemingly already apparent?

What are the real labor values?

The values of the French revolution were freedom, equality and brotherhood, just before they started lopping off the heads of everyone that disagreed with them.

Juliar says one thing and does quite the opposite when convenient, and it appears to the man on the ground that the only values that the Labor party hold dear is to hold onto power and enjoy the privileges as a right.

Bernard Finnegan would appear to be the guilty party, and surprise surprise is an ex union official.

Belly,

ALP members have been found guilty of all the issues in my title recently, while all walks of life have these criminals, the ALP seems to have far in excess of their fair share, so the title is perfectly appropriate. Your response is like toy teeth, I wind you up and off you go with another burbling rant.

Child porn and paedophilia are sick, and the individuals in the ALP who embrace such things are sick. What is equally sick, though, is that you (Shadow Minister) do not indicate any concern or compassion for the victims of these crimes; nor do you seem particularly concerned that they have surfaced. Instead, you delight in having another opportunity to bash the ALP - to use the misfortune of vulnerable children as an opportunity to score points in your political battle. I'm sure you are as disgusted as the bulk of the population when it comes to child porn and paedophilia, but your political stance seems to desensitise you. You don't seem to see the crime - instead, you see the opportunity. I hope I'm wrong, but I can only go on what your posts suggest about you.

Forrest Gumph I regard you as one of our very best posters, just on balance and content.
I do not tweet, too slow on printing out the words.
But have come to the same conclusion.
I do not question the police but do ask why such a law only in SA.
No defense, my party, like every group in life, has some products of unwed parents.
I have never tried to hide my view that is true.
BUT even at our current all time low, in polls and fact, we have 31% of the vote.
This thread inferred we the 31% are lessor Australians.
Balance? wind me up? SM I has been my lifetimes work to stand for fairness
It is possible to find plenty wrong in any party.
At present mine is putting the ammunition in SM hands.
But tell me this, my balance and fairness is being questioned by both the very right and very left, yet who of them took such a firm stand against the party they support? unconditionaly in most cases, as to publicly refuse to vote for as I did my party.
To revel in the total defeat I had promised for two years, of that party.
It is my view, considered opinion Labor is the best of two very much substandard party's today.
If Shadow minister is putting such thread title here for balance we are all worse for it.
Truth has value, in truth SHADOW MINISTER I doubt you should be able to post such titles as this and further doubt fairness and balance is some thing you care about.
Your post, yet again having flamed me, and ALP voters seeks to put the blame on me!
I highlight for nonconservative voters this, we must both hold Labor to account tell them what we think even in private letters.
But we must never get so low we use tactics like this thread naughty boys throw stones debate needs to be honest, open and fair, a bridge too far for some.

This Shadow Minister is in my view an insult to free speech.
Belly,
Defending Labor is an insult to the decent people. So, we're square.

Individual we are getting very near both flaming and deliberate provocation.
It is best for OLO and me I do not let myself get down to your level.
I have an advantage over you, my IQ is in double figures.
Graham, I understand my retaliation is uncalled for and it would be better if I did shrink away.
However some place in the back of my head I still think free speech must bring some responsibility with it.
Fellow posters I ask you, is it OK to defame every one who votes ALP?
On 2 party preferred is it OK to say 44% of us are unworthy.
What is flaming if not in the posts of Shadow minister[ see his words winding me up] and individual.
Have I ever seen such from me? hope not
Is retreat for peace sake an option?
If so balance and fairness dies here.

Freedom of speech is not the freedom to say only what others find acceptable. It is the freedom to express an opinion, a thought or even a moot point without threat of reprisal from the "moral majority" or PC brigade.

The unions do not in their advertising pretend to present both points of view, neither do either of the political parties. My point, which by the way I believe, is that while there are many honest ALP members with integrity, the organisation itself is rotten to the core, and fosters an inordinate number of criminal MPs.

This can be compared to the Catholic Church, which while having many devout members, turned a blind eye to the horrors perpetrated by its clergy, and created a culture of entitlement and greed.

While most have railed against my interpretation, no one has challenged the facts on the ground that fraud, corruption, and even worse is common in the ALP, and until they actively work to change the culture of entitlement, the ALP risks becoming a joke like the Catholic Church.

individual:>> Defending Labor is an insult to the decent people. So, we're square.<<

Absolutely correct indy, as I have said previously the ineptitude of the current Labor lot sees all our hands going into the fire not just the hands of the imbeciles that voted Labor or Green in the last fed election, and there are less of them than those who voted for against them. This has become a personal issue for many as they are to be disadvantaged along with the imbeciles given Labor is imparting generational debt. We are still borrowing one hundred million dollars a day to service the debt Rudd endowed us with.

Belly you are sounding pathetic, truth is truth no matter which party does the deed and it seems truth and the bleeding obvious are becoming a stranger to your pro Labor diatribe.

The corruption that SM accuses the Labour party of is right through our society now. The more secular we have become the more corrupt. Singling out the Labour party is wrong. The Greens are full of people living in all sorts of perverted situations and claiming the high moral ground on social issues. The Liberal party also have their fair share of corrupt figures. People cry horror horror with child porn but some in the Liberal party defend Henson photographing young girls nude.

In many ways the liberal church is to blame for the corruption in society. As they started to stop calling evil evil people have become more and more comfortable with it. We are like frogs who have been slowly heated to boiling point. Parents rarely teach kids right from wrong and each generation does in excess what the last did in moderation. The average TV show is full of blasphemy, adultery and rebellion. Its no wonder we have produced such as corrupt society. I have met murderers with no remorse, rapist who laugh about the victims and thieves who justify their actions. The reality however is that we are all corrupt to varying degrees.

Thank God their was One who wasn't corrupt. Many today remembered what we all did to Him due to our own rottenness. Thankfully He is still pouring out grace and mercy to those humble enough to realise how wicked they really are.

SOG our relation ship, yours and mine has been shaky, but that rant lost me.
It is my view you do not have the ability to talk about this subject with understanding.
I have to force myself to understand, some posts here are from the truly uninformed.
Shadow Minister, once more,uses a tactic he has so very often, EVIDENCE HE IS A FLAMER!
He turns the insulting thread title away and focuses on my union background.
Over and again turning to insults about my background.
From 2005 my posts have been clear, my thoughts that some unions are hurting the movement.
NEVER have I claimed sainthood for them, or for my party.
I put this to posters,here in one single thread you can see why greens get votes, why fixed greens like TBC ignore the shattering bigotry seen here.
Some clearly including three posts here,have no true understanding of politics, that has become,
A requirement to be green, tea party conservative,true left Labor, a requirement to be so bigoted.
I one day would in person like to take an IQ test with those three content it would not leave me red faced, pride in being so bigoted is not an asset.

Belly,
It pains me to have to resort to this but what else can one write to try & make you see your own hypocrisy ? I'm not writing this as a contest ? I see an urgent need to make people see reality & not lose track of it all the time. You accuse me of using defamatory words but, as I said tell us what's defamatory about stating a fact ? I didn't make up the stories about these Labor Politicians ? They did these things!
I just want to remind you that you're pretty good at dishing out but you're a poor receiver.
If you don't like criticism then don't challenge the integrity of people who care. I care what's happening to us at the hands of the lawyers' club calling itself Labor.

Belly,

You are the last one able to complain of flaming. Your posts have almost without exception attacked me personally, whilst I have deliberately avoided direct personal attacks.

I haven't tried to have anyone's posts removed as in most cases the inarticulate attacks do more for my case than theirs, and frankly I neither seek nor desire their approval.

What I have mentioned is reflected in other commentary, and probably privately amongst many others, and the conclusions I reach are not any stretch of the imagination.

This thread, the infamous statements, the thought that some get more freedom to post threads like this for BALANCE?
Must be addressed, no joy here Indy, I truly think you are so very uninformed and biased nothing you say is of value.
Not not a debating tool, just a firm belief you know no better.
LABOR has muffed it up, got a great deal wrong, but SHINES in compassion to Abbott.
Gillard is a neon light in the darkest out back,showing clearly a gutlessness in my party, she is not going to turn her polling around, can not win or hide her past.
We in fact have ten better leaders WHO LACK THE GUTS TO GET HER OUT.
But Indy you must know, you have no idea none to say as your mate SOG did EVERY LABOR VOTER BETRAYS THIS COUNTRY bigotry, blind stupidity.
How could any one respect you two,value your thoughts .
Now I charge Shadow Minister using his own words,, in his second post with FLAMING.
Balance? fairness? equity, not seen in post title after post title.
I have in mind a thread title, >are some conservatives bigots,> but no not me not that low the answer is yes very much so.
And some are pedophiles sex deviates some are criminals some are great people, headlines are currently full of my party's sins.
Those who sin are grubs but not Representative of us all.
EVERY party has filth in it.
In a thread about Abbott SM defended him flying around the country at our expense selling his book then hurls insults at Gillard for? doing the same?
Bigotry is blind support for bigotry based on fellow travelers doing it is as bad as the grubby act its self.
Individual knows no better SOG too but SM you understand and deliberately FLAME, poor sport mate .

Belly,
balance & fairness ? Today's Lawyer-Labor is incompetent. Nothing balanced or fair about that. And the other sad fact ? You're part of that.

The title is insulting and the resultant posts a flame war.

Reprehensible all.

What Ammonite said. The OP is deliberately designed to start a flame war. Very poor show indeed.

Ammonite, another fact denier, understandably so and perfectly in line with the title of the discussion.

The topic title, of itself, is not insulting, because the matters mentioned have all been substantiated ones of public knowledge occurring within or near to government, at times when all governments happened to have been Labor governments. This general topic has been given a new lease of life due to the one CURRENT matter mentioned in the opening sentence of the opening post, that of the formally unidentified SA MP that has just resigned who is by inference linked by the opening post and/or topic title to child porn.

I consider it most regrettable that no link was posted in the opening post to any online news item relating to this current matter of the resignation of the SA MP, nor any explanation as to why it is reasonable to infer a connection of that resignation with child porn allegations. Heaven knows, there is no shortage of such items. The connection is made by the words attributed to the SA Premier, that "The reasons for [Bernard Finnegan's] resignation cannot be published for legal reasons", words contained within the second link posted in my previous post. One doesn't have to be Einstein to work it out, but one does have to READ THE LINKS.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/voters-desert-ranns-labor/story-fn6bqphm-1226041831973

Belly asks (on Friday, 22 April 2011 at 1:27:56 PM) "why such a law [one banning publication of the accused's name] only in SA?". OUG gives a clue in saying "party loyalists is the name of the game [...] we got the dirt on you..we have your vote". In these days of the ubiquitous computer and the internet, it is not only possible to 'get the dirt' on someone, but to PUT the 'dirt' upon them via their computer, 'dirt' in which they may not knowingly or willingly have played. With name suppressed, such accused could perhaps be coerced into a certain course of action before the matter comes to be dealt with in court. That being achieved, the allegations are then made to 'go away', the formerly accused continues in public life, people forget. pwned! - in SA. Where it all began?

Really FG? Shadow Minister gave no links to read just biased opinion.

I guess the title "Child porn, paedophilia, gay bars, corruption, and Blacks" is inoffensive?

or

maybe:

"Child porn, paedophilia, gay bars, corruption, and the male gender"?

Of course: "Child porn, paedophilia, gay bars, corruption, and the Liberal Party" is perfectly acceptable.

Not personal enough?

Try: "Child porn, paedophilia, gay bars, corruption, and Tony Abbott".

Would the last two titles been approved by the moderator? Inquiring minds want to know.

Flaming still going on - called a "fact denier" by Individual merely for questioning the title of this rather spurious topic.

Ammonite I believe you are new here.
I refuse to be sorry for defending my party.
A good and balanced poster Forrest seems to say I am wrong too.
Do this for me,click the little man under shadow ministers post, look then at his posts/thread titles.
Forget individual and two others, one has not yet posted here, they are not capable of debate.
Users, myself included left, ,in my case twice because of Shadow Ministers confrontational and flaming history, he is protected from affects of his slanted bigoted statements.
I am what I Hope I appear to be a realist who understands my party's faults.
But consider this,media is unwilling to highlight conservatives actions.
In the last 12 years premature retirements have never been investigated.
Now uncharitable Forrest, can you confirm this law is a labor invention?
And I an active member am on record remember saying the current leader is rubbish in that state and the party.like QLD is better served by its impending defeat next election.
My party is not to be blamed for its criminals and filth, those within the party who cover up for them are as bad as them, but is it an ALP or human nature problem.
Take a look at SM post history.

Belly

I have been watching long enough to know that SM constantly disses the Labor Party - whether they need it or not.

If people just ignored his topics (yeah, I know I'm posting here - but my issue was the title) he'd soon run out of puff.

Can't quite get my mind around FG - clearly intelligent, has a tendency to 'blind by science' rather than state clearly what he truly means and I have to wonder why he is defending the indefensible - we all know how poorly both major political parties have performed over the past 14 years or more.

Very little ball playing here - this thread being a perfect example.

As for all the flame wars all that results in is furthering deeply entrenched views.

Nothing to see here folks, move along.

As for all the flame wars all that results in is furthering deeply entrenched views.
Ammonite,
Sensible suggestion, cheers.

We were going to go away this Easter however, my husband decided that he'd prefer to stay at home and take a break later on in the year.
So here I am posting on line once again. What a surprise to come back to such an amazing thread with the intriguing title of, "Child porn, paedophilia, gay bars, corruption, and the Labor party." And then reading Shadow Minister's post one can't help but wonder if
the man is mentally stable? I knew that he was very anti-Labor but this thread borders on something more disturbing to say the least.

I for one won't be responding to his threads any more. He's lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Almost every subject should be open for debate.
A few we can say should not be given air.
Not however this one, each of the points infer,some posters with lessor intellect, openly say, Labor is the party of such people.
And that in voting Labor we,all ALP voters, betray Australia.
I once started a pointed heated anti federal Labor thread about Kevin Rudd's government and what went wrong.
In it I invited the very people who claim I am blindly following Labor to post,or start such a thread about conservative politics, no one did so.
Note my defense has not been for offenders, my contempt has, I truly say if asked would geld any of them.
Here is food for thought.
If Labor lost an election today, and they would if it was held.
Do you think Tony Abbott is the saint some here say he is, as bad as Gillard is, and that is awful, she leads him by a country mile in polling.
An Abbott lead conservative party would be a one term one.
I do not back down some true bigotry is on display here and sorry some childlike stuff too.

Belly,

Did an ALP MP not get caught with his fingers in the kiddy?
Did not Orkopoulos get jailed for repeated child rape?
Did not an NSW MP get caught cheating on his wife at a gay bar?
Did not several ALP MPs get done for fraud?

Perhaps the reason the ALP is in such a bad condition is because they don't want it to be discussed. They would have us believe that all of the above are just a string of bad coincidences.

Also stop trying to convince us that your posts are balanced, As per your last post, your hatred of TA is palpable, and why your reaction is so hostile is because there is more than a grain of truth, and truth hurts.

Shadow Minister,

Got yerself a little fixation here, it seems.

- whatever floats your boat....

Shadow, are you seriously implying that the ALP somehow attracts sexual deviants and criminals or that just being a member of the ALP turns you into either?

Or maybe the ALP itself is just a front for some sort of paeodophile ring, like the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts movement.

Yes its early off to a market day.
Having thrown the insulting thread[one of many]out there and having actually seen some say worse about the ALP here.
SM takes a few facts that in truth are true and contemptible, well that gay bar is untrue.
See that bloke headed my old work place, and a department I went on to serve union members in.
He went to a gay meeting place not bar.
It while not my idea of fun, was his right, it is not illegal,betraying his wife and family is not nice.
At best he was haunted by conservative press, that would not highlight such crimes against common sense if done by conservatives.
Here I stand, SM has admitted he flames me,I understand I should ignore him individual and two others.
Is that good for OLO? is it OK to let one sided hate run free unchallenged.
I question SHADOW MINISTERS well being,is he truly putting forward the idea the ALP is a front for pure evil?
Can an intelligent man make such claims.
Never before in the history of this country have Australians needed to talk honestly about politics, we are on the brink of letting our personal feelings turn to hate.
Both party's are poorly lead and Parliament NEVER A PLACE FOR CLEAN DEBATE has become a school boy bully forum smirks and grumbles from both sides .
second rate behavior from second rate leaders and camp followers.
Poor fella my country.

The question is that if there is suspicion of an individual, does the organisation investigate and hand the information to police, or does it draw ranks around the individual and only take action when no other course is available?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/28/3150867.htm

Remind you of the Catholic church?

The reason I posted on this thread was because of the effective challenge to moderation in Ammonite's post of Friday, 22 April 2011 at 10:01:44 AM, constituted by the question:

"How do [Shadow Minister's] discussions get approval?

Being relatively new to OLO, Ammonite may be unaware of the recent attempt to effectively close the site down, an attempt chronicled in this article, http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11583 , with that chronicling further developed in the associated comments thread, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11583&page=0 . It can still be gainfully posted to, if one takes the time to read oneself in and post on topic.

That attempt to shut OLO down revolved around a similar contention to that encapsulated by Ammonite's question in this thread.

I would suggest SM's discussion got approved because GrahamY knew that every one of the inferences made in SM's topic title and opening post had been the subject of at least some MSM discussion, and was therefore a legitimate subject for discussion on OLO, whether or not he approved of the direction in which the questions posed by SM may have appeared to be heading. GrahamY would also have been as aware as any of us of Kristina Keneally's concession speech claim following the NSW elections, with respect to voters, that "they did not leave us [the former ALP government], we left them".

But ugliness resides in the eye of the beholder, and, without SM having posted a single link by way of substantiation of the bases for the inferences he was seemingly making in opening the discussion, before one could say 'Jack Robinson' three out of four posters had risen to what SM has effectively subsequently confessed to was bait.

If, in posting links of the sort that should have been posted by SM, Ammonite thinks that I am not stating clearly what I mean, s/he needs to understand that I have had to tread carefully around possible contempt of SA law issues. Contrary to what s/he asserts, there may well be something to see here, folks, but not perhaps exactly what SM insinuates.

I've not read back over all the posts so it may have already been mentioned but don't forget two Qld Labor MP's being caught for child sexual abuse (including a former leader of the party).

On the other hand British Conservative MP's get plenty of mention from the left because of male MP's with a preference for dressing in women's clothes, bondage etc. The left has never been overly shy about using the chair sniffing incident for broader political purposes. The difference between the corruption in the former Qld Nat's which was proven and which is used to tar all members is notable.

It does seem that when someone who does not like Labor plays the game the way the left routinely plays it many are highly outraged in a way they don't seem to be when it's their own side playing the game that way.

Their does seem to be preference in most parties to overstate the failings of the otherside and excuse the same or similar from their own. The same allies to most group's.

R0bert

are you seriously implying that the ALP somehow attracts...
Rache,
You might be onto something here. Most of the ALP supporters I know are very self-centred & opportunistic in character. Of course there are decent people too but I'm referring to the majority.

FG,

Great analysis. Good to see an occasional poster that can engage his grey matter before reacting.

Given the broad media coverage of all the incidents to which I referred, I thought links would be redundant. (as would any link to show that the Japanese earthquake had occurred.)

In engineering/ business, there is a saying once is an incident, twice could be a coincidence, but three times is a trend. What is happening is definitely a trend.

There is most definitely smoke. I have offered my opinion as to the cause of the smoke, posters such as Belly, Lexi, Ammonite, would have us believe that there is no smoke and that all these incidents are just a long series of unfortunate coincidences.

I am forced to respond to this nonsense because the implication is clearly directed at only one particular Party when we all know full well that it's not the Partys' fault if some of its members don't always behave appropriately. Both Partys have members within their organisations whose actions at times leave a lot to be desired. Hence for the sake of balance here are just a few on behalf of the Liberal Party:

1) The Lindsay pamphlet scandal - an Australian electoral scandal that shocked quite a few voters - Google it for details.
2) Richard Dalla-Riva resigned from Ted Ballieu's Shadow Cabinet after he sexually harassed a teenager at a party function.
3) Federal Liberal Mp's have been caught rorting the public purse by
ordering nearly $300,000 of printer toner in the lead up to an election.
"Tonergate" according to the Courier Mail - the Lib MP's went on a 3 week blitz in late 2009 to beat a strict financial cap & stock up on office equipment - ruthlessly ordering taxpayer funded supplies ahead of the 2010 campaign.
4)Then there's various Lib Mp's who were force to repay tens of thosands in family travel perks and other entitlements which they had
misused.
5) And let's not forget the infamous Mr Buswell - the Liberal chair-sniffing MP from WA...
6) The "UTE-GATE" affair and the list goes on...

I could keep going but I think you get the point. Mud-slinging is a
nasty occupation even more so when it can be applicable to both sides.

Forrest Gumpp, you are having a bet each way here.
Maybe trying to close the site down is a bit harsh.
I was part of that thread defending this site.
I saw it as unneeded, and maybe born out of miss understanding.
Jewerlys thread was in my view both but maybe not with intent, it however I think is still our longest ever thread.
We lost a good poster, because a thread started by them got miss used and maybe not interpreted well.
Just do me this favor, I am aware you are a conservative, leave your biases at the door,tell me my biases are not challenged by my floggings I have handed out to my party here.
Say individuals TAUNTS here in print in this thread about me and ALL WHO vote Labor are not unbalanced or flaming.
I CHALLENGE MY CONSERVATIVE OPPONENTS good the bad and Shadow/Individuals make a donation to keep this forum going, help it continue.
GY told me in those days the outside influences challenged him, other than him I was the biggest contributor.
No fortune believe me,some of you earn 10 times my now weekly allotment,get the check book out.
AND support free speech by developing lines good people do not cross.
continued

This is scraping the bottom of the barrell even for SM. To attempt to align ALP policy with child porn and pedophilia is nothing more than inflammatory nonsense. Tactics and spin like this are more likely to turn any wavering voter off rather than attract support.

Let SM spout his bile. Decent people will judge each indvidual by his/her actions. SM is purely about Opposition for Opposition's sake and this is another in a long line of one-eyed self-serving threads.

This behaviour reminds me of the anti-Muslim pamphlets distributed by Howard's team in Sydney that were fraudulently attributed to the ALP. Did anyone get arrested over that breach of electoral fraud? Desperate people do desperate things but it is not always in the interests of democracy.

If SM was really about truth and honesty he would be honest about Children Overboard, WMDs, Liberal party bribery cases, AWB etal.

On a positive note, the few mindless comments on OLO do not represent the majority of Australians who are more than capable of thinking for themselves.

Muck raking is a poor substitute for failure in Coaltion policy.

I am proud to say I try EVERY post to put great value on my HONEST OPINIONS.
I have left many sites, one pro union one because lunatic left took it as ground to support extremes, it suffered much before being fixed.
Others because they became verbal graffiti boards.
I never returned even to look at any of them.
Here I twice left,upset with 3, now that number is 4 but Shadow Minister was the reason, I left and the one that bought me back.
This site, is better than any, but badly miss used in three different posts telling me my party and me too are supporters of filth.
My pride like a hard rock in my chest screams this is unfair, you do not need this, sell the computer if that is what it takes BUT LEAVE OLO.
I fight it, every breath, this IS FLAMING, IT IS SUPPORTED BECAUSE some posting here think it true, only conservatives are fit to rule this country.
Think, that saying sorry raising pensions education improvements and a host of achievements never took place but every thing we did was wrong/evil
We saw little of past conservatives, INDIVIDUALS NOT THE WHOLE,sneaking away from Ministries and seats after miss leading Parliament in the wheat scandal and children over board.
It seems my quest for accountability and improvement from my party is not a shared request for conservatives from conservatives.
Next time we see a good poster leave I will follow,unless flaming is stopped here ALL FLAMING all posters
Last get your hands in your pockets come on give the joy some posters get in flaming ALP voters demands a fee for service, shadow Minister give more than I did but give, you above all should

Pelican,

Good comment.

Belly,

This sort of blather is really not worth getting stirred up about.
It's indicative of an opposition stance that offers only empty rhetoric and one that has nothing of value to offer as an alternative.
It's uninspiring, puerile and "cheap".

SM knows how to wind you up - but only if you let him.

Lexi,

Small bickies really, some instances of inappropriate behaviour compared to reams of criminality from the ALP.

Belly,

Que? (P.S. I'm glad you found out how to use spell check)

Pelican, Poirot,

Ra Ra for the ALP. But still my questions are unanswered, and none of you have tried. The feeble attempts to dredge up something from the Liberal side is minuscule compared to ALP examples of criminality.

I would guess that GY's inbox is crammed with requests to have me banned, but I have been very careful not to state anything that does not comply with OLO rules.

The Labor party has for years claimed the moral high ground, and even when the result was an abortion, it was so for a "good" reason. This week, we have seen more evidence of some of the more vile members of the ALP. That these incidents are repeated is serious cause for concern.

SM
You obviously did not read or understand my post. Where is "Ra Ra ALP" even implied. I am merely saying you ignore any wrongdoing on behalf of the Coalition and even applaud their ability to get away with it by structuring terms of reference in inquiries to ensure valuable evidence is not presented.

In the interests of free speech, I would not waste my time asking for your suspension. Your words tell us more about you than if you were hidden away to foster your bile in secrecy.

You judge people by your own perspective. Not all people think like you only limiting comments in narrow terms of Left/Right, Labor/Liberal perspectives.

It is not a competition to see whose side is the most corrupt - the sadness is in the fact that you treat politics like a football game and one of one-upmanship. There is no substance or honesty when you only highlight dishonesty when it suits you, not when it occurs, no matter who is responsible.

That is the real failure of democracy - but you won't get it - your type rarely do and you are as much a pawn in the game as you think you are making a difference. The real test of democracy is when citizens are able to condemn or praise a policy on it's merit not just depending on who has prepared it. Bit like the Carbon Tax, where were all the rioters when Howard policy put forward an ETS or similar Carbon Tax?

While I am not suggesting you are the only one guilty of this, we can all be one-eyed at times, you however must take the first prize.

Pelican,

You obviously didn't read my posts. I was questioning Labor values not policy. I was simply pointing out the disproportionate number of criminals in the ranks of ALP MPs. In all the posts there are no examples of criminal behaviour on the coalition side, so you are right there is no competition.

Trust me the rest do not hesitate to highlight any perceived malfeasance on the part of the coalition.

As for the policies of the parties, a lot depends on circumstance, the carbon tax being a prime example. Prior to Copenhagen when it looked as the whole world was moving to a price on carbon, a price on carbon looked viable, (note that the coalition wanted to wait until after Copenhagen), but after talks collapsed, a carbon price was a policy dog. I have spent much time debating policy, and prefer it, but the supporters generally split on party lines and simply mouth the party line.

I am one eyed in my revulsion of the antics of the Labor party, I am not entirely enamoured with all aspects of the coalition, but they are streets ahead on common sense and integrity.

Shadow Minister you are quite wrong.
I do not think I ever asked for you to be banned.
I was hurt and offended by what I thought was support for you,from GY.
At that time others felt you had acted unfairly, ANY REVIEW OF YOUR THREAD TITLES will confirm this.
However it is now clear to me, your sole reason for existing is to set an example.
For others on how not to debate, faults can be found in my party.
But in never having produced one concern about yours you add to my claim.
At that intervention in a thread I corresponded with GY but believe I have never more than highlighted an on going concern at your some what slanderous thread titles and intentions.

individuals TAUNTS
Belly,
I have no intention to "taunt" for the sake of it. I do hope however that it does invoke some deeper thinking i.e. past silly party lines. After all, aren't we discussing the integrity of those whom many have entrusted with having the integrity to occupy high office ? It appears our society has been badly & callously deceived by these individuals. They're not the ALP but one should be forgiven to believe this Party attracts those type of characters. I really believe that today's ALP is unashamedly crapping on the grave of the Australian Labor Party.

Any newspaper headline is meant to be short catchy and infer the meaning of the thread. However, in itself it makes no direct statement. In your last statement you have repeated exactly my feelings. Whilst previous generations may have had conviction and integrity (I still don't agree with all their policies) the present senior ALP ranks lack all of this. If they did, the barbs from Tony Abbott would not strike home.

The coal-ition, streets ahead on integrity?

Now there's a crazy statement!

Howard put the interests of his party above the national interest and then in turn put his personal interests above those of his own party. In the end it was his wife and children that decided he should hang on past his use-by date. So much for supposed party unity.

I think he lost 8 ministers in his first term due to acts of impropriety.

Who was it that deliberately played the race-card and let this particular genie out of the bottle?

Who decided that Pauline Hanson was unfit to for Liberal preselection because of her racist attitude then allowed her to repeat her rant in parliament unchallenged, just so they could bleed votes away from the ALP? A decent leader would have verbally slapped that crazy bitch down straight away because -
1. She was wrong and
2. It was potentially (and since proven to be) socially divisive.

Every PM since Whitlam had a Press Secretary but only Howard had 3 - all media monitors to counter any potential criticism, plus a well-oiled dirty tricks machine working around the clock and investigating not only the ALP parliamentarians and judiciary but also their families and friends.

The new alternative is even worse, led by a hypocritical opportunist and with an over-ambitious walking cliche waiting in the wings for a shot at the deputy job.

Rose coloured glasses are one thing, but blinkers are something else again.

Lets see just NSW recently:

One former minister went to jail for under-age sex, one resigned after visiting a gay sex club, one resigned after visiting adult websites, two had to resign after expenses fraud, and one resigned for "underpants-dancing" in Parliament House.

Let alone in Wollongong where the entire council was dismissed for corruption and the Labor MP's staffers were caught handing out fraudulent how to vote cards.

Then there is Gordon Nuttall convicted of serious fraud in Queensland
Brian Burke in WA, etc.

Compared to "inappropriate behaviour" this is in a different league.

It has been said the pen is mightier than the sword.
Even Mr Tony Abbott thinks that,he has reminded us only his scripted words are to be believed.
Individual it is my sad but needed duty,to ask you to again read your own posts here.
How about revisiting your last 100, I have done that, with mine often.
And use it as a tool to remind myself, that I get it wrong/can do better.
If you do not see pure bigotry in your posts ,you must have been reading some one else's, a possibility Sir.

Individual I want nothing from you, will, as I did and will forever do, walk around Simon Crean, you share with others,a total lack of the ability to live in the world as it is.
I note your new thread shadow, enjoy it, just maybe staying away from your baits, allowing you free reign will hight light your inability to be other than a flamer.
As it is today my ALP is headed for defeat, as clearly as NSW was foretold years in advance my party's fate is sealed.
BUT the wrongs are not those conservatives cry crocodile tears for here.
Yes we lost middle Australia on boat people /refugees seemingly wanting to appease greens/middle class activist we push our own followers to other party's.
And fearful of growing the green vote if we act we grow conservative ones with our very blood, our reason for existing being driven away.
We have a silly ideas workshop,it seems its task is to come up with silly walks and thoughts, cash for clunkers/Baby bonuses like Howard and Abbott we become Santa clause to parents.
Continued.

My party has become stricken with a groupy like illness.
It falls at the feet of popularity making a very fine singer a very poor politician.
Telling us Gillard,a woman who advised Kevin not to go with ETS is a leader? then I want her job!
We get our hands on power and look like children fighting over a chip with a sea gull.
Yet we have great talent, great leaders, more than one waiting for a gift from our most destructive element the left, our all over the shop Prime Minister to change in to what? a pumpkin.
While I think this is all true I know as fact.
No spring will come with Abbott his policy's are disposable,he bases his plan on confrontation, on dreams by smacking the independents in the mouth they'd will install him.
A nightmare awaits my country, conservatives like the ALP need renewal,we are offered two choices ,both not goos enough for our country.
I confirm my ALP has my vote,but wish based on understanding and fear shared by my fellow foot soldiers Gillard must go, she will not become a leader not undo her past and now is the time for all good men.women to come to the aid of my party.
Continued

Not every conservative is my opponent, I learn much from such as RObertn and Forrest.
But here again SH launches at me for my education.
Most know how shallow that was/is most understand 6% of this country's population can not read or write.
I can learn I do if I want to, I have not even learned how to cut and paste, mental block will not let me find out how,but can spend a day reading about an historic event, and do.
I am constantly told, by people like Shadow Minister /individual and others I am biased, SHOW ME A POST LIKE THOSE TWO FROM THEM.
OLO is without doubt our country's best ,lets drop the hate, blindness stupidity, bigotry.
And if some one from my party is listening, my name is mud for being honest enough to want better,lets open our Branch's to nonmembers if they will come, those who will go green if we continue to run on unmovable rails .
Let my party grow.
Evidence can be found here just how much this country has to fear from growing conservative drift to the very right.

Belly,

Never feel as if you have to excuse your level of education. Your spirit and your willingness to learn should attract respect, not derision.

Actually, I'm fascinated that SM and individual feel the need to chide fellow posters on their grammar and spelling.

They come across as a pair of priggish schoolboys who have been "brung up proper" - who have the technical prowess to fashion their arguments, but unfortunately no constructive substance with which to inflate them

Belly,
I agree with Pariot and my upbringing was not far removed from yours.
A large, low income, family and we had to make it on our own. Left school early to get work (shearing industry)

I realized early that 'if the boss has trouble making a quid, there is not much hope for the bloke that works for him'.

So I went without a lot to invest in things and now am not too badly off. Maybe a little older than you and am almost computer illiterate.

I never apologise for my lack of education and in fact some of the academics i have met are the biggest dills ever. Just because a bloke wears a blue singlet at work doesn't mean he has less sense that an academic. There are plenty of insincere and crooks around that wear business suits, I have discovered.

You and I agree on somethings, but not all, and i think you will agree that what is needed is honesty and integrity in our politicians. That is why I am so cynical of politicians and parties.

belly quote
""I have not even learned how to cut and paste,""

mate too easy
you only need the mouse
put the blinking line to the beginning
[of the bit you want to quote]

push the index finger [left click button]
hold it down...and drag the blue highlighted bit..to the end
[of the bit you wish to copy]

then right click the button on the right side of ya mouse
a creen comes up asking what you want

giving you the choice of cut paste delete etc
chose cut...and you have cut it

then go to a post page
right click again...[the box opens..chose paste]
and it pastes that you cut...to where/ever.. the blinking line is

if you can highlight
you can cut that highlighted
then paste it anywhere you like

i couldnt live without it

anyhow mate ..i have respect for you

even envey..you have friends
a thing i have never sought..thus never got
wouldnt even recognise it even if it was offerd

anyhow this topic
im over it

the party system is corrupt
sadly as corrrupted as the red head liars true hair colour
cant wait to read lindsies book...he was one who saw the vile
and wanted no more of it..

[its folks like him that really should have the power..
but sadly arnt cut-throat enough to ever get it]

you..sorry..[they]..[party machine operatchiks]
have to be..mean and nasty..black soul
/black suited/blackguards

or red[blood red]..wanmna-be men
like ju-liar..in blood/red dress
babbleonian hories..for the boories

thats why i hate..all parties
they are the weak..of which i dare to speak

Belly suggests I have placed a bet each way in what I have so far posted in this thread.

Belly, maaaate, I wouldn't have so much as been able to get near a cashier's window in this TAB to get any money on if I wanted to, due to all the hysterical over-reaction to what most who have posted claim to be a known 'wind up' poster, one who has confessed to being such within this very thread. It seems but mention the words 'child porn' or 'paedophilia' in any context, and the ability or will to read what is actually posted goes straight out the window, let alone any ability to rationally discuss any such issues to the extent that they may become to be shown to be relevant. I think some interests exploit this 'irrationality reflex' in both political debate and international diplomacy.

Let me be clear: I was not suggesting that Ammonite was trying to close down the OLO site. That was something seemingly attempted, between them, by Gregory Storer and 'Mikey Bear' over the publication by OLO of the Muehlenberg article last November. What Ammonite (endorsed by Morganzola) in this thread was opening up was the same sort of challenge to moderation as was used in the attempt, in relation to the Muehlenberg article, to divert attention away from what had been an attempt to prevent publication of certain sorts of articles and/or authors on OLO by attacking the revenue of the site.

What has to be remembered is that what has been over-reacted to here is an opening post and topic title, and as such is something that has been the subject of specific moderation approval before even going up on the discussions index page. It is not a post that has 'flown under the radar'. This site does not need a re-emergence of the challenges to moderation that were occurring a few months ago. I was, and am, simply trying to help nip any such re-emergence in the bud.

Some more MSM background on the current matter:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/in-depth/labor-factional-heavies-spark-panic/story-fn2sdwup-1226043105835

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/in-depth/backroom-mp-bernard-finnigans-rapid-rise-and-fall/story-fn2sdwup-1226043111535

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/in-depth/rann-defiant-as-alp-counts/story-fn2sdwup-1226043844368

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/rann-caucus-mulls-replacement-for-finnigan/story-e6frgczx-1226043513529

Judging by your replies you've all had a more privileged upbringing than I. Working on farms in my school holidays from age 9, after 8 years primary school started an apprenticeship at 14. Tradesman at 17, started another apprenticeship but didn't quite finish due to coming to Australia at 20 with not more than 10 words of english to my credit. What you erroneously see as brung up proper is what I have learnt here working on building sites and, Banjo because a bloke wears a blue singlet at work doesn't mean he has less sense that an academic. Isn't that exactly what I've been saying in just about all of my posts.
That there are deviates in the ALP getting caught is not my fault.

Apart from one post best ignored the standards has lifted.
First Forrest, my thanks and regards.
In another thread this morning I high lighted by thoughts along those lines.
Followed all, those links here is my review.
I truly think media and its servants craft headlines not quite true.
But it is true of both the ALP and the union movement power[ no less Conservatives]is miss used by supporting mates.
Only the best should serve,not best mate, those behind a south Australian gentle man should now go.
Banjo I would not ask you to change a thing, true you know some of my closest mates are conservatives.
OUG bloke mates are worth it if they drink your beer take your smokes be rude in front of the kids ,well not good but if you truly want and need help a mate will be there, emptying the fridge on the way out.
I believe in our two party system, think even the very best independents bring more bad than good know in my heart Windsor is if not the most honest man in Parliament close to it.
And understand Rob Oakshot before helping the ALP was loved and trusted and remember it was his party's failures that saw him become an independent.
Party system must be held accountable but is the only one that works.
England is heading to our system, we should go one vote one value soon,
No country should be held to ransom by 12% of its voters.
PS FG has shown fierce defense of OLO who has not yet given who can afford to and why?
PS OUG took every step would not highlight paste try again.

Forrest Gumpp

That sound you hear is my applause - diversionary tactics is your forte - if you are not on the OLO payroll, you should be.

As for the topic (such as it is) yes, indeed the Labor Party is flawed, however not to the point of being the font of all evil as Shadow Minister continually claims. Child porn and pedophilia crosses all political boundaries. As for corruption; the Libs are innocents? No - politics soon either fouls or eliminates the innocents. And Gay Bars? - there are gays in the Liberal Party as well, maybe they own shares in gay bars - who the fork cares.

Despite the chorus of many posters on this thread clearly stating Shadow Minister is stark nekked, he has found his niche here on OLO. I just wish I knew what it is he is balancing out on OLO.

Ammonite,

I wasn't trying to divert from either the opening post or the inferences some posters saw it as making. To my mind some of the MSM commentary in relation to the SA MP child porn downloading charges seemed to be similar to some of the points Belly has been making in relation to the ALP machine for some time now. For example, like this statement from the first linked item in my previous post:

"But a senior state figure said proper
renewal was only possible if faction
bosses, "who wouldn't know a voter if
they fell over one," stopped interfering."

It seemed a pity to allow the hysterical reaction of some posters, to the effect that the OP implied that all who supported Labor supported the alleged vices, to drown out such observations. There are other SA connections of interest, particularly in relation to the setting up of the National Electricity Market and the associated privatisation of electricity generation and distribution opposed by around 80% of the Australian public. Especially given Keating's highly-publicised castigation of now NSW Labor Opposition Leader John Robertson's having opposed the sell-off of NSW electricity assets, whilst at the same time not explaining to either Robertson or the Australian public WHY such privatisation was either necessary or desirable.

Combine this with the Star Chamber-like situation of the charged SA MP being unable to be formally publicly named, and the censoring of SA Parliamentary Hansard in recent years to remove a speech from the record (one that described how a person could use certain medications and techniques to commit suicide, if I recall correctly), and you have an even more intriguing confluence of events. Especially so if there is a SA Labor 'religious right' or 'Opus Dei'-style centre of influence involved in the current allegations.

Yet in NSW, for what does the new Liberal/National coalition government attract significant criticism? Why, the alleged influence of a 'religious right' faction, one having supposed Opus Dei connections, over government policy formation!

Could this be what Shadow Minister is on about?

Sorry bloke just can not believe a conspiracy is in place to protect this seemingly grubby person.
Not defending him but just why are we convicting him before trial,of what,on what evidence.
Haveing said that I trust the police and say he has done wrong.
He appearers on SMs information to be a near new police minister.
Did this law, that persons charged with sex crimes not be named exist before his crimes? yes.
Did the ALP introduce it, I do not know any one tell us.
Now a by product of union/Labor ties, no less so than big business/Conservatives ones, is that awful word a lie but damaging solidarity.
SOLIDARITY WITH WHO? grubs or party followers fleas on the back of party's or its very reason to exist.
My ALP threw Bennie Readon out, because he,like John Robinson stood against the very things that DESTROYED NSW ALP.
They will be the ones who rebuild, and Bernie is a hero for understanding union power is first and last its members interest not the ALP.
But my defense of my party is not going to be weakened by these facts, no evidence exists any one hide the sins of this bloke or changed laws to do so.

FG, now you are just making stuff up.

"the alleged influence of Opus Dei"? The handful of orthodox Catholics brought to notoriety by Dan Brown. Puleez!

I did not actually imply that all who supported Labor supported the alleged vices, rather that ALP leadership is so far divorced from its members and completely unaccountable. (which is largely why its membership is evaporating as no one listens to them.)

My comparison to the Catholic Church was not just a wind up, but a structural comparison where all decisions are top down, and the message preached to the followers is vastly different to the values of those in power.

The corruption etc come from the complete lack of accountability within the ranks. None of the "outings" of MP criminal behaviour have come from labor MPs, in fact in the Orkopolous case his behaviour was largely ignored, and the "whistle blower was ostracised by the ALP and harassed.

sorry belly my bad
where i said select cut
i should have said copy

[cut only works when your actually allready typing
ie when im all ready on a posting page]

but watch...when you move your mouse over these words
there will be a line

put the line over this bit
then push the left side [holding it down]..and drag
the blue highlighted bit to here

being carfull not to loose the blue highlight
[ie dont move too much]
then right click

now you can move down to copy
push it and you got a copy

[go to a post page
click on it to get the flashing 'I']
and right click
clicking on paste
and it gets pasted

some extra bits
but not needed to cut/paste

its a matter of learning
to open the right click window

right click opens...
[from the top it reads undo..
AVOID pushing this button]..

same with delete option]

right click..[if it holds a copy is darker
if you copy its lighter]

the last option is select all
but this also is an option on this reading page

[the blue page with a pen on it
at the bottom of this frame]

clicking on that would copy this whole comment
into the clip boards...then you paste it
and get rid of the bits you dont want to include in your quote

dont let it sound complicated mate
once you done it once its like anything
from then on you own it

dont let it own you
right click now
to open the options window

then once you know right click
learn the left click...to highlight something
[you have to get a blue highlight]
or the copy order wont show up

once you got the blue highlight
as long as its blue..you can grab it..[to copy it]
once you copied it you can paste it

im sorry mate its easier than these words imply
so easy i used the wrong word[lol]

its copy
not cut

copy and paste
and i got it wrong
sorry

Shadow Minister says:

"FG, now you are just making stuff up.

"the alleged influence of Opus Dei"?
The handful of orthodox Catholics brought
to notoriety by Dan Brown. Puleez!"




I give you references to, and quotes from, news items published in reference to the SA MP child porn matter that you introduced in opening this discussion in so much as they substantiate claims as to Opus Dei involvement.

The entire content of the Vexnews tweet linked to in my first post:

"Bernard Finnigan's inaugural speech: "I
am a servant of Christ and subject of His
reign in history" http://j.mp/hXoc9S "


From the SMH news item linked to in my first post:

"Like Mr Finnigan, Mr Rau and Mr Snelling
belong to the conservative religious right
faction, allied to the Shop, Distributive
and Allied Employees Union."


From the last link given in my post of Monday, 25 April 2011 at 10:42:09 AM:

"In a February speech* to the ALP's Flory
sub-branch, historian Gary Lockwood painted
the hulkish MP [Finnigan] as an ultra-conservative
who belonged to secretive Catholic Church
political organisations such as Opus Dei.

Mr Lockwood described a visit to Mr Finnigan's
home when it was on the market. "It was like
going into a monastery -- austere, religious
tapestries on the wall, prayer kneelers and
praying areas," he said.

"Now I am not being critical of Bernard and his
religious activities. That is his right and his
business. But it does give me reason to believe
he is a member of either the Legionaires of Christ,
Opus Dei, or both.""

*Finnigan was elevated to the Ministry in February, 72 days before his resignation.


Opus Dei in the (O'Farrell) NSW government: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11838 . Second paragraph.





SM, I cannot vouch for the accuracy or relevance of the claims reported, but I did not make them up.

Thank you for clarifying your reason for mentioning the catholic church in the context of your opening post as being for purposes of structural comparison with the ALP as we see it in government. I could not read your mind, only go on the words written.

I am not a Catholic, feel the need to say that up front.
It is my view the Catholic Church has played a big roll in my party and continues to.
I am unhappy about this, NO RELIGION has in my view any right to get involved in politics.
I have never heard even a whisper about a party member or unionist along the lines of pedophilia.
Not once, I am aware of homosexuals in every walk of life, find no reason to care one way or the other about them.
To do so would be intrusive in my view, of no more interest than what brand of footy they follow.
Who gave up this SA bloke?
Is it possible some one within the party/movement did? I earnestly hope so, and if charges are true say thanks.
Abbott is Catholic, maybe this explains his youthful flirtation with the ALP.
Few do not remember or know of the DLP and its links with Catholics.
I could not ever say every Catholic priest is a pedophile, but too many have been.
I still want an answer, SM said one had been found with his finger in a kiddy, is it rage against such filth, any one who would do such a thing or politics that made that statement?

Belly "I have never heard even a whisper about a party member or unionist along the lines of pedophilia."

While I don't think the issue is likely to be just Labor the only cases I'm aware of for elected pollies have been Labor party members.

I'm not convinced of SM's argument but I'm also not aware of Australian Conservative pollies being caught in that particular crime.

You might like to look at the history of former Qld state party leader Keith Wright and former Qld state member Billy Darcy, in NSW former minister Milton Orkopoulos.

You might also look at claims regarding how much others knew about Orkopoulos's activities well before action was taken and support he recieved from collegues at his sentencing.

There were allegations against former federal minister Bob Collins who died before facing trial. I don't know how serious those claims were but certainly more than a whisper.

R0bert

FG,

Nearly all the links tie the Catholic Church to the ALP and not the coalition. The only link to Opus Dei is that David Clarke's wife is a member of Opus Dei and he is a "co operator" which basically means he is catholic and married to a member. Despite my interest in politics I have never heard the "allegation" and so I would guess that you are reaching for straws. Your claim that you "cannot verify its veracity" is double speak for you knew it was rubbish when you posted it.

As for what I meant, as I clarified this more than once subsequently, your "misunderstanding" is dishonest.

Belly:

"Did an ALP MP not get caught with his fingers in the kiddy?"

Get an English teacher to explain the concept of "double entendre" to you.

No defense RObert, I actually met Milt the Mauler, he repelled me and I never knew why.
I could search. for conservative sins, some would exist, but if my search was boy scouting leaders?
Or Catholic Church's/homes/any section of Society?
It would be wrong to blame every Catholic, every Scout leader, remember ,read it your self,2 here claimed EVERY ALP voter is guilty of betraying this country.
I have no defense no wish to defend any who did such as the named people did.
Is however Australian politics to slip ever closer to what we see in say Ireland?
Are we to swap Aussie mate ship for hate?
SM here, in this thread, fact is in many, said he with deliberate purpose got me to bite/flamed me.
Our next federal government looks very much to be the party you follow.
Can you asure me you totally trust Tony Abbott?
Or that NO GOOD EXISTS IN MINE.
RObert I truly think mine has much to fix leadership policy's and a few party's do not, but can any one say what is constantly being said here.
Well yes,on reflection if you truly honestly believe it then say it.
But I doubt any one could unconditionally agree with this threads direction and intent.
Last my party seems unable to see its weakening polls are proof born and bred ALP voters are concered with rubbery policy's and inaction.
But be warned the silly lady leading us is about to charge in to a one way street going in the wrong direction, we will be better for it.

Shadow Minister,

Since you congratulated me on my 'Great analysis' in your post of Sunday, 24 April 2011 at 9:44:09 AM, I have expressed no uncertainty as to your having a reason for bringing the catholic church into the discussion in the opening post. You have clarified that reason as being for structural comparison with the ALP, which I do not fault. Given that it is a good comparison, and that the RC clergy are disqualified by the provisions of Section 44 (i.) of the Constitution from direct involvement in Federal politics at least, and that that clerical institution has had an historic lust for temporal power, it is only natural to look for some lay order or organisation of zealots ready to act as its factota.

Such is, to all accounts, the organisation known as 'Opus Dei'. There may be others. Opus Dei is mentioned in connection with Bernard Finnigan in the MSM references to the SA MP's shock resignation, which is in turn connected by inference with an arrest of a SA MP on child porn charges. Opus Dei is also mentioned in Kate Mannix' OLO article 'And so it begins: Government by the Religious Right' (to which I have already provided a link) in connection with the O'Farrell NSW government, a fact I included for balance.

You counter-claim Clarke's wife to be in Opus Dei. Your reference?




I have no involvement with catholicism, and no idea as to the extent of Opus Dei influence in politics. Hence my statement:

"I cannot vouch for the accuracy or relevance of
the claims reported, but I did not make them up."

Those claims may well be rubbish as to the significance of Opus Dei influence, but I do not know that. So do not quote me as having used the words "cannot verify its veracity", which nowhere appear in any post of mine, nor accuse me therein of the doublespeak of having recounted references to Opus Dei in my links knowing them to be rubbish when I posted them, nor of any dishonest misunderstanding.

SM
Despite your response I stand by my last statement. Whether you are accusing the ALP of 'child abuse' based policy or 'values' makes no difference.

It is an absurd suggestion and you know it.

The difference between the Catholic Church and the ALP (or the Coalition for that matter) is that crimes of child abuse, pedophilia and rape are not covered up to protect the organisation in a grand conspiracy of silence and whitewashing tactics eg. moving priests from parish to parish to minister their sin over and over again.

Yes of course there are corrupt people in every organisation, your weakness is not being able to demand justice and transparency from all sides of politics including defending your 'team' no matter their wrongdoing. Your weakness is unfortunately a sign that Australia is not going anywhere soon in terms of demanding better of their representatives - more intent on playing sport while Rome burns.

I've met decent people on all sides of politics including the Liberals and I would not tarnish their good names and deeds by accusing Liberals of pedophilia based values on the actions of one person.

You can spin it all you like, but these accusations are nothing but bile and as I said remind me of the nastiness inherent in the anti-Muslim pamphlets promoted by the Liberal Party in Sydney.

Demanding more from our political representatives is not an exclusive goal and no party should be granted a free pass just because they more match our own political leanings. However, I suspect this will fall on deaf ears, and accept you will never volunteer to be a part of that greater movement.

As another poster put it, there is a difference between rose coloured glasses and a blindfold.

FG,

This may not be the greatest source of info, but it is the most concise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Clarke_(Australian_politician)
http://www.opusdei.org.au/sec.php?s=736

Given the fantastical nature of the claim you flighted, given only the oblique reference in your link, it would have similar credibility as claiming Julia Gillard was a communist spy.

Pelican,

In none of my posts was I claiming that ALP supporters or even rank and file members were criminals or otherwise, if you had bothered to read them.

SM
Well, sadily I have read your posts I just disagree with your assertions that ALP politicians base their values on, as your title asserts, around 'Child porn, paedophilia,gay bars,corruption, and the Labor Party".

I did not asumme you were writing of rank and file, clearly you were talking about Labor Politicians who are as broad a Church and as mixed a bunch as anyone in the Coalition.

I truly need to say this.
I trawled quite a lot of Shadow Ministers posts/thread titles.
Put together a list of ones that I found offensive.
Ready to post here As a counter/support for my opinions.
I have not bothered.
Pelican that last post,yours,is the best out come of this thread.
Not ever because it in part supports my views.
BUT the fact this country MUST DEMAND BETTER from all who sit in Parliament.
In the strangest, indeed weird way,we prop up poor politics and poor politicians by blindly excepting our side so say nothing politics.

I do so delight in understatement.

SM posts:

"This may not be the greatest source
of info, but it is the most concise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Clarke_(Australian_politician )"

Indeed. The link tells us that there is no Wiki entry for David Clarke, Australian politician. Good one!
(I include a Twitpic of a screenshot as evidence as to the state of the Wiki entry as at the time I viewed it. See: http://twitpic.com/4pw32f ) Nothing like a good larf to start the day, he he.




To his credit, SM also posts a link to the 'official' source of information on Opus Dei in Australia, the website of that organisation itself. Here is a Twitpic of its FAQ page as it appears if you click the question 'Does Opus Dei publish lists of members?': http://twitpic.com/4pwnks

Now I don't think I have any credibility problem with respect to my posts so far to this topic, even if I have swum against the tide of what I saw as over-reaction to a titular inference connecting the ALP organisationally with tolerance of paedophilia. Which is why I am somewhat perplexed at Shadow Minister's attempt at painting me up as having 'flighted' any claim, let alone one of any 'fantastical nature', with respect to (presumably) Opus Dei.

It was Penelope Debelle of The Adelaide Advertiser who identifies Bernard Finnigan as "one of the most influential figures in [the SA] Parliament", in the third last paragraph of this item: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/in-depth/backroom-mp-bernard-finnigans-rapid-rise-and-fall/story-fn2sdwup-1226043111535 .

It was David Nason and Mark Schliebs of The Australian who reported historian Gary Lockwood as attributing an Opus Dei involvement to Finnigan, in this news item: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/rann-caucus-mulls-replacement-for-finnigan/story-e6frgczx-1226043513529 .

It was Kate Mannix who made the Opus Dei connection, through David Clarke, with the O'Farrell NSW government, in this OLO article: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11838 . Opus Dei, unsurprisingly, seeks to exercise political influence across the board.

SM, it would have been these articles, or ones like them, that helped get your topic approved. Why suggest that, together, they constitute some sort of fantastical claim by me? Especially when you claim independent knowledge as to David Clarke's wife's involvement in Opus Dei.

Pelican,

My assertions are:

1 That the values of the Labor leadership differ significantly from those espoused by Julia Gillard.
2 That the practices of senior labor fosters criminality of the sort we see regularly.

FG

You were the one to assert the link between the liberals and Opus Dei. When I challenged you, you produced some feeble links which actually indicated strong Catholic influence on the ALP and passing reference in a post by a now stay at home mum to a link with David Clarke and OD. And then tried to back out. My knowledge is not independent, merely a 5min google search, which appears to be beyond your requirements to validate information.

Bernard Finnigan is Labor not Liberal. How does this support your assertion that the libs have OD links?

Written word unlike verbal combat,still is much the same.
We all of us surely remember pushing mum too much as we chucked our childhood tantrums.
I do.
And the whisper in the back of our minds,that one that reminded us just maybe we had gone too far.
But sure in the understanding if we continued mum may just give in buy that lolly to shut us up.
It still lives in the heart of some, I knew one who after three days of lunch hour debate, three days of confronting every one around the table said these words.
OK I know that I am wrong, but I am right.
It was not politics that subject, far from it.
But he carried great heat away from his loss, I played only a minor roll in it.
Some time after one of those rubbish so called Australian patriots newspapers, along time before the grub from Swansea was charged or even won a seat had an anti Labor story in it.
It was shoved in my letter box with the words read it scribbled in his handwriting.
I did, it had an interesting map, of the planet Mars,and drawings of helicopters,/ space ships
Seems Mr Hitler is alive and well living there with his top people waiting to come back, over night, in a growing fleet of space ships.
I am reminded of that in this thread and others from our gentle man author.

Shadow Minister

>> That the practices of senior labor fosters criminality of the sort we see regularly. <<

Examples and evidence please. Else your last post is just more defamation that you are permitted in these pages with regard to the Labor Party.

FG

You are a Lib spin merchant aren't you?

ammo mite
you need look no further than the privatisation od state forrests..or the selling off of electicity
or water..or the solar cell scam..
or putting in pipelines for gas sales for multinationals

or the gift of half a billion
by peter beatup to the gladstone plasnt that never got built
or calling building school halls an education revolution

heck both parties are there to serve big business

just now the big boned bleach bottle redhead..
with sow hips and a dress sence of a lamb chop..[sorry mutton..]
and her beer barrel bum..is in china..

selling 15 percent of origen energy
and a nice fat gas deal..[for ana blight]
new alp president

with her male business partners..
no doudt big labour donation's will result
[one hand washes the other]..

its a filthy game

played by both sides

but lets not get away from the reason
poli-tic-ians sell their soul

guilt...once you sold out once..your their boy
even if your not strictly speakling anything like a girl
but a grey headed ol/troll looking like lamb chops and snags gone bad

Good Afternoon Folks,

Shadow Minister talks critically only about Labor's values while conveniently overlooking the values of the Liberal Party.

John Howard ran the most secret government in history where rhetoric, class, religion, ethnicity, gender, race, played a part as well of course as the erosion of human rights. Just to mention a few things to jog some memories - things like the failure to provide reparations for the wrongs done to the stolen generation, the arbirary confinement of powers of detention "on authorities which fly in the face of covenant standards," the languishing of Australian citizens in Guantanamo Bay "without charge, and without access to law," the detention of children and their families in 'soul destroying conditions,' the steady erosion of 'equality in terms of social justice,' the very rule of law was in jeopardy, and in the lead up to the Iraq war - Howard dismissed the views of well-informed people as - "retired diplomats, retired members of the Defence Forces and of the Judiciary..." To be able to brush aside such notables along with the Australian Senate and much of the public service. This was to display an uncommon ego. So much for values.

Let's take a closer look at Liberal Party values ...
The Liberal Party, supposedly the bastion of smaller government and less intervention, is full of people who are ardently in favour of regulating who we sleep with, who we marry, what we do with our bodies, who can have children and how.

I could go on but my point here is - that both sides of politics have had their fair share of incidents and scandals. Therefore to consistently finger-point at only one-sde smacks of ignorance and hatred and as we know - any criticism born of ignorance, mistrust, and hatred, is not only ineffectual and a complete waste of time. It is harmful and elicitis equally pointless and damaging responses.

"1 That the values of the Labor leadership differ significantly from those espoused by Julia Gillard"

How so? The values of Labor pretty much meet the same standard as the Coalition these days with the rush to privatise and embrace neo-liberal policy. Historically I cannot remember a time when any party could claim all their members are in agreement 100% on any issue.
Even Tony Abbott is purported to be differing from the Liberal backbench on a number of issues including failure to consult with his own shadow ministry before making announcements about paid maternity leave and funding of Indonesian schools. Tony Abbott only won the leadership ballot by one vote indicating that there are many who do not share all of his values.

"2 That the practices of senior labor fosters criminality of the sort we see regularly."

What practices of senior labor? How do they differ from the Coalition? Do you mean the sort of criminality that leads to corrupt oil-for-food programs, assertions about WMDs which led to the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians and soldiers.

The fact that you intentionally aligned child porn and pedophilia with Labor values is what is being scrutinised. If you had any experience of law enforcement you would know that pedophiles come from wide ranging backgrounds and 'values' including many who claim 'family values' and who are right wing conservative types.

You really need to get out more.

As for gay bars. What is wrong with gay bars? You make it sound like a bad thing that a group of people who share the same sexuality would want to meet other people like them. Being gay is not being 'corrupt' nor should gays be targeted by bigotted individuals. There are homosexuals in all walks of life including the National Party and the Liberal Party.

I claim immunity!

I invoke Godwin's Law!

Belly has uttered the 'H' word! H-tl-r! He said it in line 15 of his post of Wednesday, 27 April 2011 at 1:44:17 PM. He did!

His punishment shall be to have to look at the cartoon in the Twitpic link in this Tweet ( http://twitter.com/#!/vexnews/status/59382493224247296 ), then read this news item: http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/innocent-man-busted-for-child-porn-after-neighbour-leached-wifi-20110426-1dugz.html .

H-tl-r indeed! Bad, bad user.




Ammonite asks:

"FG. You are a Lib spin merchant aren't you?"

Ammonite. What can I say? Just because I have been helping defend SM's topic from drowning under an initially irrational chorus of reflexive counter-accusations because of his associating the word 'paedophilia' with the word 'Labor' in his title, that makes me a Lib spin merchant? Perhaps you would get an answer you would more prefer to hear if you asked Shadow Minister whether I am a Lib spin merchant. Then again, perhaps not. SM seems to find little difficulty in representing a clearly re-quoted reference from me as to the existence of an Opus Dei connection with the O'Farrell NSW government, as being a back-down from my having made such a claim in the first place.

Also, it is not a good look to diss the very site that allows you to express your own opinion as 'permitting defamation' just because the views expressed by others may run counter to your own. I think you could count on it that, having approved this topic, GrahamY would be keeping a close eye on anything that even approached being defamatory in the thread.

SM,

I get it that Bernard Finnigan, who is claimed to have Opus Dei links, is a SA Labor politician. Do you not get it that Opus Dei might seek to simultaneously exercise influence across the political spectrum? Kate Mannix seems well qualified to suggest so. Is she the 'stay-at-home-mum' you seemingly treat so dismissively?

I can not quite understand Forrest's whole in put here.
I do understand he seems to be a conservative as is his right.
RObert is ,and in no way would I say in being so they inherit bad habits/thoughts.
I remain however convinced I have been honest and in my view quite right,to say SM flames me.
And to highlight/question Individual and Sonofglion generalizations that ALL WHO VOTE FOR MY PARTY BETRAY MY COUNTRY
I just can not resolve this issue, why is our country becoming so very divided.
YES my posts say it Labor looks like two eggs scrambled then thrown on a wall after then being sold as fresh.
ONLY the fact Abbott is far worse, keeps us even close.
IF some looked over their shoulders,at policy's like Abbott's Social security for middle and high income earners and a host more we could craft a list so very long.
But the pure hate, do not tell me it is not seen here FG [not in your posts] is blinding us all to just how badly our country is served by third grade leaders on both sides
In my view Gillards trip over seas will not lift her poling it may well drop ,unless she stays there.

Belly, "I can not quite understand Forrest's whole in put here"

Forrest seem's top be making the point that the reaction to the opening post has not been a reasoned one. It's been an emotive response attacking SM and the conservatives.

To my view SM could be thoroughly rebutted if one of his opponents could demonstrate one of the following.
- The rates of paedophilia by coalition pollies is at a similar level to that of Labor leaders
- The rates of paedophilia by Labor pollies is statistically not significant. The variance is within standard deviation for similar groups which don't have a structural bias towards attracking paedophiles. It can be argued that Boy Scouts and some church occupations have a structural bias which historically could have attracted paedophiles - close limited supervision access to children.

Stepping back from the particularly emotive issue of paedophilia a similar cases could be made for conviction rates for other crimes.

I've not worked out where to dig up the relevant numbers to do the maths.

On the face of it the number of convicted paedophiles amongst former Labor pollies does seem unusually high but is it high enough to suggest correlation, is it just a blip or are those numbers similar to those found in other groups?

As has been pointed out elsewhere the reference to gay bar's seems irrelevant.

I also strongly agree with the point you make about the level of hate that has become part of political debate but from my own biased perspective I've seen a tendancy by the left to use very nasty tactics against opponents then scream foul when similar tactics are used against their side. Perhaps we all tend to not notice the sin's of those we mostly agree with as much as we notice the sin's of our opponents.

R0bert

just to prove
its not just the polies judges or cathoholics
http://100777.com/node/463

Ammonite,

I have given plenty of examples of Labor MP criminality. Also some information and links to the Orkopolous case where suspicion was discouraged and the whistle blower harassed. I was also unable to find where in any of these cases the perpetrator had been exposed by the Labor organisation.

Robert has outlined exactly how my assertion can be solidly disproved, but my own inexpert calculations favour my claims.

Pelican,

I have no issue with gays, rather the opposite if you read my posts on gay marriage etc. I do have an issue with a husband cheating on his wife with random strangers. The fact that he was using an official vehicle to do so was particularly stupid and seedy.

SM

You have asserted that child porn and paedophilia are instrinsically linked to only the Labor Party.

You provide a few examples of poor behaviour that can be found (unfortunately) with any organisation from scout clubs, religions or other political parties - such as the Liberal Party who have their share of appalling behaviour, examples of which have been provided by astute and long time posters such as Pelican.

It is you claiming that entire party is corrupt, therefore you who is obliged to provide evidence that every person affiliated with the Labor Party is corrupt - else you are simply continuing your tradition of a smear campaign against Labor. BTW I don't even vote for Labor, however I object to deliberate hate speech against any person or organisation.

FG

Your comment that there has been an overly emotional response to this thread's topic is another example of your capacity to 'spin'. Claims that an entire political party is corrupt IS a highly emotive claim to make and the responses have been entirely appropriate for such complete fabrication on the part of SM.

However, I do appreciate your input on this thread - you have revealed a great deal about yourself that your usually verbal and maze-like posts obscure.

I can see you now.

:)

Ammonite,

"You have asserted that child porn and paedophilia are instrinsically linked to only the Labor Party."

No I didn't.

I provided a few recent examples of criminal behaviour in ALP MPs. No one has provided examples of this in the coalition, at best a few examples of inappropriate behaviour, some a decade old.

Having claimed several times that this is not related to the rank and file ALP members, why should I provide evidence that every person affiliated with the Labor Party is corrupt? This is a delusion of your own making.

As even Robert acknowledged, the number of convicted paedophiles amongst former Labor pollies does seem unusually high. Is this just a string of unfortunate coincidences? and how does this compare to the other parties.

Do the maths yourself.

Sounds like SM is chanelling good old Protestant upper middle-class morality to me.

Fancy whoever it was using an "official" vehicle for his philandering - why, that misdemeanor would surely ratchet his sin up to a level 3 transgression in any Conservative appraisal.

Sorry, SM, it's a little too Victorian England in it's selective exposure of decadence. The upper middles were always trying to ape their "superiors" in deportment and attitude.
All those toffs bed-hopping at the country house parties, while simultaneously looking down their noses at the "immorality" of the lower orders.

Ammonite I've intepretted SM's claims as being more about the leadership than an assertion "that every person affiliated with the Labor Party is corrupt".

The lib's have had their share of bad behavior but so far no one has produced any evidence of a Lib politician who's being convicted (or even serious allegations) of paedophilia which in my view is a world of harm away from the very poor taste involved in sniffing a chair after someone has got up from it.

Comparing with organisations such as the Boy Scouts and church's (and Rabbi's etc) is counterproductive. Most have or had structural reasons for the rates of child abuse being higher than community norm's, easy access to children and in the past a high level of trust for those roles. Those factors would tend to attract child abusers. There has also been some interesting discussion about reasons why in the case of catholic clergy the official celebacy position may have been attractive to men who's sexual interest was not women.

Most of the debate has been around homosexuality but a vow of celebacy gives a good excuse to avoid a hetrosexual marriage in cultures with a lot of social pressure to be so.

I don't personally think that the ALP has structural reasons to attract paedophiles any more than any other party. I suspect that like most organisations there is a tendency for individuals and leadership to keep quiet if the allegations don't seem overly urgent and to try and downplay the incidents to minimise the collateral damage.

I do think that one of the downsides to our political system is that it attracts people with an obsession with power. To get the most power seems to require a lot of brutal and dishonest behavior.

It's hardly going to be surprising that we end up with people in politics that it's hard to respect or admire.

R0bert

Well said Poirot.

SM - as there is no such thing as perfection you will find both good and bad in any group - your focus on the Labor Party as totally 'bad' is pathological.

I have been disappointed in the Labor Party for some years now, but would never make the spurious claims about them you have. Apply your powers of deduction, such as they are, to your Liberal Party you will find as much muck - if not more, the Libs being 'born to rule' and the corruption of power.

Poirot,

I accused the MP of stupidity for using the official vehicle. It was because of this that he was caught. The same was the MP caught fiddling a few $1000 on the payroll. Pure stupidity brought about by a general lack of accountability.

Ammonite,

I have not claimed that the ALP is "totally bad". But from the information available they are by far the worst of a bad bunch.

R0bert's post of Thursday, 28 April 2011 at 7:07:39 AM starts off by ACCURATELY quoting Belly saying:

"Belly, "I can not quite understand
Forrest's whole in put here""

I would endorse absolutely every point that R0bert made in that post, as far as those points go. There could be more similarly relevant points made. One such was made by R0bert in his subsequent post of Thursday, 28 April 2011 at 9:25:01 AM, in which he said:

"I do think that one of the downsides
to our political system is that it
attracts people with an obsession with
power. To get the most power seems to
require a lot of brutal and dishonest
behavior."

The first objective of my input here is beginning to be achieved, and that is, that the enormously important and interesting topic of what, in respect to Australian politics, I call 'the South Australian connection' (somewhat analogously to 'The French Connection') which SM has perhaps unknowingly opened up, is just beginning to be DISCUSSED, instead of being reflexively emotively reacted to by posters reading things into the topic that are not necessarily there.

Belly also says in his post of Thursday, 28 April 2011 at 5:40:21 AM, the same one from which R0bert quoted:

"... and in my view [it is] quite right
to say SM flames me."

Belly, I don't agree that s/he does, at least not in this thread. I can however understand how s/he could be getting up your nose, because s/he is sure starting to get up mine, and its all to do with the misquotation of other posters, in this case me. I was quoted, in SM's post of Tuesday, 26 April 2011 at 6:26:49 AM, as using the words "the alleged influence of Opus Dei". Nowhere did I use them! What I did say was "... the alleged influence of a 'religious right' faction, one having supposed Opus Dei connections, over government policy formation!". A quite important distinction in meaning.

I find you RObert guilty of white washing SM.
Show me, just one, who from with in a party takes to that party as often as I flog mine.
Tell me of one from your side of the fence,who so very often looks at the faults from within.
Lets look, dirty stuff uncalled for, but no way I can not sling the flaming back.
Did you note the cover up, the near silence when your former leader Billy Mackie sneddon died in the arms of a prostitute?
Tell me your view on a very much out of it Malchom Frazer appearing in the lobby of his hotel without his trousers.
Rumors about a good man, your leader John Grey Gorten and more than one film star.
An uncharitable, foolish man would say your leadership has form for betraying its wifes.
OH Harold Holt! ,good man liked a bit extra too.
Yes hate runs near the surface in your party, the loony left and some times mine, supported by people like SM, REVIEW HIS POST HISTORY, it is provocation with planning in advance.

Despite some back tracking on SM's original claims I believe the intent of the post was not missed by most posters.

RObert many people who go into politics do aspire to some level of influence and power but I also believe many go into the field because of ideological beliefs and a willingness to serve their electorate.

That might sound twee, but what happens once people are successful in politics is many are pulled into the vortex - they are pressured to tow the party line or play one-upmanship within the framework of some faux-moral high ground. Using phrases like "keeping the government to account" when they really mean "spin the government in bad light". Good policies should bring a bipartisan approach but they rarely do.

Politics is a dirty game sometimes and no side has a claim to any moral high ground.

The only way to change this power relationship is to involve the citizenry more in government. That removes the power from the few to the many including reducing the impact of influential lobby groups that don't always match the interests of the citizenry. There is no such thing as a perfect system, but the system we have encourages the type of content this thread epitomises.

Pelican I agree with pretty much everything in that last post.

Belly I don't like what SM appears to be doing here but I that does not mean that I dismiss out of hand one of the central points relating to paedophilia.

I can't see any sign of a pattern in the incidents mentioned earlier. The three I know of who have had convictions against them all seem to have committed their crimes in very different circumstances.

I suspect that some of those outraged at what SM appears to have been doing here would have a somewhat more muted response if several White House staffers from the Bush era had been convicted of similar offenses and someone was using the same tactic to smear that government.

The main response to SM's point seems to have been outrage that the question could be asked rather than any attempt to show SM to be overplaying a small statistical blip.

I don't think the convictions of 3 labor politicians Australia wide over what I guess to be a 10 year period indicates a pattern.

R0bert

Here is a nonpartisan joke that can be enjoyed by all parties:

While walking down the street one day a Member of Parliament is hit by a truck and dies. His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St Peter at the Pearly Gates. "Welcome to Heaven," says St Peter. "What we'll do is have you spend one day in hell and one day in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity." And with that St Peter escorts the MP to the elevator which goes down to hell.

The doors open and the MP finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are many of his friends. They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar, and champagne. Finally it's time to go and everyone gives the MP a hearty farewell and wave as the elevator rises. The elevator goes up and the door opens on heaven where St Peter is waiting for him.

"Now it's time to visit heaven." 24 hours pass with the MP joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud playing their harps and singing. Before long St Peter returns. "Well, you've spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity." The MP answers, "I would never have said it before, but I think I would be better off in hell." St Peter escorts the MP to the elevator and the MP goes down to hell.

The doors open. The MP finds himself in a barren land covered with waste and garbage. He sees his friends dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.

"I don't understand," stammers the MP. "Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse and we ate lobster, caviar, drank champagne. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened?" The devil smiles and replies, "Yesterday we were campaigning. Today you voted!"

Love Lexi's punchline:

"The devil smiles and replies, "Yesterday
we were campaigning. Today you voted!""

Thank you for with humour effectively returning the focus of the thread to the double-barrelled question posed in the opening post:

"Are these the real labor values, and are
the populist slogans they spout on Jobs,
social justice etc simply populist blurb
to get them elected?"

I think it can be safely said that the arguably deliberately provocative attributions implied as perhaps being 'Labor values' in the first barrel of the double-barrelled question have been answered by most posters in the negative. That leaves the second part of the question to be dealt with. Let's see whether the information that is coming to light as a consequence of the shock resignation of Bernard Finnigan after only 72 days in the SA Ministry, the only news that really gave this topic any current legs to run with, helps us answer this latter part of the question.

Belly, you can carry on winning the battle with regard to the value of the evidence constituted by the posting history of SM as showing those posts as being one-eyed if you want, but it might be at the cost of losing the war. I, and I think many others, have long considered them to be so, which is a major reason I have seldom posted to his/her topics. Just look instead at the history of Bernard Finnigan as exemplifying just about everything you have ever posted as being wrong with Labor's performance in government. You, a work-experienced union representative and later organiser with a lifetime of experience, with the integrity (along with many others) to insist on opposing the electricity fire-sale sell-off, have been rewarded (by your own party organisation) by being thrown on the scrap heap.

Finnigan, 39, since he finished his Bachelor of Arts at university, looks as if he has not done one day's work in his life outside of being a full-time party apparatchik. Into Parliament in a dead man's shoes. Careerist.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/in-depth/backroom-mp-bernard-finnigans-rapid-rise-and-fall/story-fn2sdwup-1226043111535

Robert,

As I included fraud and other crimes, the net is far wider than "the convictions of 3 labor politicians for paedophilia". And while less odious is more statistically relevant.

Pelican,

I agree, something that changes the system from total control from above that "That removes the power from the few to the many including reducing the impact of influential lobby groups that don't always match the interests of the citizenry. There is no such thing as a perfect system, but the system we have encourages the type of content this thread epitomises."

FG,

Belly claims again and again that I am one eyed. I have never denied this. I do, however, support issues that the coalition does not, so my "one eyedness" is more a disgust with the ALP machine than anything else. He is, however, deluded if he thinks his input is balanced.

Also, if the original imputation of "Are these the real labor values" has been answered, the fact that a disproportionate No of ALP MPs perform criminal acts has not.

I think my post history can be my evidence here.
I not ever Shadow Minister, have flogged my party here.
Doubt I could ever be said, by honest men,to be in any way as biased as he clearly is.
My party has its grubs, it has its problems.
Not unlike both conservative party's we have left right and center factions.
And not unlike the Liberal extreme right currently running conservatives we suffer from foolish acts.
IF I am as biased as Shadow Minister,I can not claim to have my party's best interests at heart ONLY CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT is acceptable for any party.
No one has addressed my claims about past conservative leaders dalliances, nore should they it mattered not .
But to infer and do not overlook SM,s partners here, ALP member ship is breeding or hiding pedophilia , or that those who vote ALP are betraying this country is at best flaming.
I refuse to ever let this bloke defame a whole party wait endlessly for his views on his sides wrongs.
And challenge the intelligence of any one who says my party betrays this country.
No one who is blind to his sides wrongs, thinks the other side is always wrong has any grasp of the subject.

Shadow Minister tossing Child abuse crimes in the mix was always going to be sensational and divert the discussion from those other issues.

How about you note then retract that part of the discussion and attempt to make your case on the other areas where you consider Labor values might be relevant.

How far back do we take the issue and is it only convictions that count?
Do politicians widely believed to have been corrupt but never successfully prosecuted count?

I remain undecided about the brown paper bags and Joh whereas I doubt that many Labor supporters would be in any doubt. I'm personally very confident that one other minister in that government was genuinely and massively corrupt but for reasons not related to guilt or innocence the matter was never tested in court.

I think that John Howard acted either dishonestly or negligently regarding the children overboard issue, probably both. There appears to be plenty of claims that the government used it's power to silence witnesses at the time.

Similar for the "facts" which were given to the public prior to the invasion of Iraq. The PM and relevant ministers either lied or acted negligently in their dealings with that information. If the US lied to the Australian government about WMD then the ongoing support for Bush by Howard after the facts became clear does not show it.

I consider Abbott's role in the secret slush fund to try and destroy Pauline Hanson to be very unethical behaviour. One thing was worse than Pauline's views and that was the actions of many of her opponents.

Whilst I think that the ALP and unions deliberately misrepesented Workchoices I considered Howards decision to implement such major changes without taking it to the electorate to be little better than Julia's recent backflip. The main difference was that Howard did not specifically say he would not do it but just as with Julia circumstances changed.

I'm guessing that those who don't vote for the coalition can come up with a much better list of unethical and dishonest behaviour by them.

R0bert

At this point I could throw a list of conservative politicians who left much earlier than they planned.
An ex Minister for Defense and a deputy Prime minister just two.
I Could question Mr Abbott's Son, that turned out not to be his son.
Drag the Catholic Church into this debate by reminding others three of Labors offending people are in fact Catholic.
What is political debate?
Is it the birther/tea party insanity in the USA.
Is it hate your opponents.
Or should it/is it highlighting faults and maybe better ways things can be done.
If it is a clear right to say 44% of our country's voters betray it,or slander a whole section this way, BE WARNED we are weakening our country.
We divide and just maybe conquer our selves.
Great challenges face us, some will not see but believe me goody's do not always win wars.
And we are not far from one.
I will debate politics until death, because not to,not to want to know why things that should happen are not or are for that matter is to be blind to the reality's of life.
Sorry ,true, but some posters seemingly are from people who both over estimate their understanding and under estimate others.
Mate ship still speaks for some of us respect has to be earned no one has the right to it while defaming so very many.

Robert,

If you include perceived corruption, then 25% of Americans believe Obama was not born in America. Stick to convictions or at least where charges were laid or where ICAC recommended prosecution.

If we were to look at unethical behaviour, I would not have space for what Juliar has done in the last 12 months.

Shadow Minister the issue is also impacted to some degree by who has had power recently (easier to act corruptly when in power than opposition if lies and spin are not crimes) and the apparent unwillingness of pollies to let their peers face criminal changes. Ho

I might have forgotten it from earlier in the discussion but have you posted a list of pollies (or former pollies) who have been successfully prosecuted with criminal charges along the way.

Trying to remember the numbers but at a guess in Qld the numbers are almost even depending on the timespan. I'm thinking 3 from the Joh era and 4 from Labor (and Darcy's crimes went back to his time as a teacher I think, Merri Rose was jailed for crimes committed after she left office).

The early efforts by the ALP to protect Nuttal don't qualify but are significant. An article in Crikey http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/16/crikey-says-43/ pretty much sums up the Qld government under Beattie.

R0bert

What are Labor values? The traditional values have changed since the emphasis on working class rights and a fair go. The rush to privatisation was the first step in betraying the principles of a social democracy.

What are Liberal/National values? Those traditional champions of small business have also changed including failure to ensure a regulatory framework around competition and mono/duopolies.

Both parties are very similar in essentials - that is the travesty. The voter has very little to discern on many issues and few choices in relation to responses and policies around global pressures.

Mismanagement and wasteful spending was seen under both Howard and Rudd. Howard was the epitome of middle class welfare handouts and pork barrelling while allowing essential infrastructure to degrade, then Rudd in attempting to stave off the GFC over-ran with the stimulus package allowing the private sector to rort the government's largesse.

Maybe we do get the government's we deserve if voting is based purely on the back pocket.

I wonder if it would help if we were to follow the US example and constitutionally limit the number of years a PM may remain in office?
Perhaps then Peter Costello may have been PM. As Peter Coleman tells us in his Preface to, "The Costello Memoris," " It was his (Costello's) misfortune to come up against a man whose determination to hang on to power, while not Mugabe-esque, was unyielding. John Howard is not an unusual case. There's the pain and frustration of dislodging PM Hawke and Premiers Askin and Bjelke Petersen. Tony Blair was unwilling to vacate 10 Downing Street as Howard was to vacate Kirribilli House (although Blair finally made way for his successor)."

Coleman further states, that most politicians, "...whatever they may say, most of them do not go into Parliament to bring about particular reforms; they go in because they find the life irresistible. They want to be in it all their lives. They enjoy its exhilarating highs and take its miserable (and tedious) lows in their stride. They face long years in the wilderness with equanimity. They take for granted the slander of fools. They also believe that the voters will get it right in the end. Their day will come. They are politicians in the way others are poets. They can't help themselves..."

Perhaps we need to look at people that belong to a different parliamentary tradition. Perhaps what we need to look for are people who go into Parliament to make changes. But that's probably easier said than done. It's no wonder voters are taking their comedians seriously and their politicians as a joke. And let's not forget the special interests that have a huge amount of influence on politicians through campaign donations, which in turn can lead to policies that favour those interests rather than the needs of all citizens. How does one level the playing field for candidates? How do we give all citizens regardless of worth a fair shot to be heard and participate in the democratic process?

In fairness we should under stand that the Liberal National coalition and the ALP are no longer the party's they once had been.
Why is the question.
The introduction of television is one factor, we once only saw black and white news print photos of our leaders.
As we progressed the need for a story/headline blurred what was behind policy's.
How do we neglect Rudd's popularity that fell so far.
Or the climate change action that had massive support becoming the likely end of Julia Gillard.
Do not ignore this,self interest still rules, like him or hate him know J W Howard won over ALP voters by giving them what they wanted,or appearing to.
Refugees stands out, before the awful work choices.
It will NEVER BE POSSIBLE to see a greens government, EVER .
Labor inhabited the ground conservatives left behind in a race away from their core belief.
Both are moving not away from middle Australia but toward it.
Abbott's middle to high income Social security is blindingly wrong, at a time both party's want to review welfare.
Look closely at both party's, with openness, then consider why they act as they do.
But understand in voting green, looking for an old Labor alternative, you vote conservative.
Nothing harms Labor more than looking back not forward.

Getting back to the current issue that gave the topic legs, and the 'South Australian Connection' that I touched upon in my post of Thursday, 28 April 2011 at 11:48:28 AM, it is interesting to see the views of the SA Attorney-General (and Deputy-Premier), John Rau, arising out of the issue as to the identification of the SA Labor MP charged in relation to child porn matters. We can see Labor values at government level in SA in action in a way that would tend to back up Shadow Minister's 'second barrel' question's inference that most of Labor's statements at that level are nothing but 'populist blurb' to get them re-elected.

It seems the SA ALP website has removed all reference to the charged Labor MP. See: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/alp-rubs-disgraced-mp-from-website/story-fn59niix-1226046581036 .

There is, as of today, a total of 34 ALP members of the SA Parliament. See: http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/Members/Pages/List of All Members.aspx . (Copy and paste makes it work)

As of today, the SA ALP website shows a total of only 33 names as ALP members of the SA Parliament. Bernard Finnigan, although still a member of the SA Legislative Council (and of the ALP), is the only name missing from the list of ALP members of the SA Parliament. See: http://twitpic.com/4qtnwk

In its rush to minimize any collateral damage to its 'brand', the SA Labor organisation has effectively named the charged MP, contrary to what is said to be law.

But look at what its Attorney-General proposes in the face of this hypocrisy:

"We are, in fact, looking at [identification of
persons charged in the (social) media] as a
national problem, ..."

He means how SA law can be imposed on the rest of us throughout the Commonwealth. The imposition of 'Star Chamber' onto our Australian polity. Labor, via SA, has done the like before. See: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7585&page=0 . The fourth last paragraph.

Me, on Paul Keating, on John Robertson and the NSW power sell-off: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11834#205202 . A SA connection.

The SA government was dead before this issue.
It lacks the guts to remove its leader.
I think its a long bow to draw that they are hiding anything.
This law would need to have been introduces just for this case if that was true it existed long before it.
Past events, including the banning of certain TV shows in Victoria but not other states seemingly did not involve self interest.
I think watering down SMs intentions will not wash, and doubt ALP voters are any less upset than others

Just a bit of clarification on the link posting problem I ran into in my post of Friday, 29 April 2011 at 4:14:42 PM, in relation to accessing the list of members page on the SA Parliament website.

I obtained the web address for that page by doing a Google search using the search terms [SA Parliament], and clicking on the word 'Members' displayed in the first result abstract for the SA Parliament home page. That action delivered me to this page: http://twitpic.com/4qupe8 . Note how the web address for the page displays in the address bar in the screenshot of this page shown in the Twitpic.

I attempted to post the address of this page as a link in my OLO post by copying the address displaying in the address bar for this page when on it, then pasting it into my post in the OLO posting pane. The OLO software truncated the link at the first space in the words '/List of All Members'. Clicking the gamboge text of the link as posted yields a '404 message', 'page not found'.

If I manually typed the web address into the OLO posting pane as it displays on the SA Parliament site, the link is still effectively truncated at the first space encountered. If I typed in underscores where the spaces appear the whole entry appears as a gamboge text link, but still yields a '404' if clicked. See: http://twitpic.com/4r3qm6

However, if I copied the whole link as displayed on the SA Parliament website into the address bar of a new tab in my browser, I was able to bring up the List of All Members page. So if one copies the whole link in my OLO post, both the gamboge text and the black text, thus ( http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/Members/Pages/List of All Members.aspx ), and then opens a new tab and pastes what has been copied into the address bar there, one will be able to display the page.

One can see Bernard Finnigan is still on it.

An OLO software glitch, apparently.

I was unaware of the impending release of Tanners book or its contents when I started to defend Labor in this thread.
In thread after thread I have tried to put in to words my feelings about the impacts of the media on the way we think about politics.
Tanner has done it for me, my thoughts like anyones, are changing and developing, but not on this subject.
Tanner has said reaction to media is harming the way politics works, in my view all politics all sides.
Lets look briefly at it, brilliant stuff Mr Tanner.
ABC has on its web page comment free news, now that is just as untrue as I claim Shadow Ministers contributions are.
Women and men front faces ask questions that give their opinions.
Clearly green/Labor/Liberals construct the questions /news to highlight personal opinions.
Are we,voters taxpayer better for such a media or are we voting on information that may not be true.
One thing I know we should each of us, look for the good and the bad,the truth in politics and news media.

The SA labor goverment was dead before this issue, the NSW Labor government was dead before Orkopolous, and the other cases of fraud, but what do we see? A shake up, an internal review, or spin?

There,as FG pointed, out is the nub of the thread, and labor values on display.

According to recent reports about the ALP conference it does appear that the ALP is well aware of some of the internal problems and is attempting to redefine themselves. Or put it another way, work out what it is they stand for.

Change is inevitable and often comes as a reaction to changing world and domestic events. The growth of the middle class and inclusion of once-perceived working class skills into that class has meant a natural shift for Labor, and for Liberal/Conservative politicians. However, it is possible to retain a focus on the disadvantaged and on social democratic principles of which both parties have strayed.

My opinion is that powerful interests (akin to Bildeberg theories) have also increased their influence internationally. These groups have increased their reach and are all pervasive (and persuasive) in significant matters like foreign policy, fiscal policies, war and trade. Anyone that threatens the status quo is given short shrift often having their lives destroyed similar to the events surrounding Valerie Plame and her husband Joe Wilson. We have seen similar attempts under Howard to discredit whistleblowers like Andrew Wilkie as mentally unbalanced despite passing high level psychological testing and selective leaking to the media by government on some national security issues.

Belly
I am looking forward to reading Tanner's new book. The influence of the media and constant 24 hour vigil has changed the way politician's work as well as how they respond to media/public scrutiny.

as a former hide tanner
i had a natural minclination to the other tanner
but his spin on the 3 intervieuws i have seen..se him as doing spin

his book will be in the same vein
he point blank refuses to discuss
the very things that need to be diss-cussed

he makes no comment on the many issues
we really need to know about

[bagging the media..dont ecuse him doing media bias spin thing]
and media bagging isnt new..any foopl,knows media spins the news to help out their paid advertisers

and govt is one of the biggest advertisers
true refornm would include a sepperation of the spin dept..from the news dept..from the advertising and pr dept

but tanner hasnt got much to add
he is selling a book..

using the same spin ab-use
..and news cycle..he is trying to use

spin is the name of the game mr tanner
and your a great exponant at ab-using it

clearly your veted by lawyers/publisists
and the alp backroom guys..book
is hardly taking a fresh..look

let alone re-freshing look at the same old problem
absolute power corrupts..absolutly

your simply preparing for a come back
its funny what the folds,..in the hides i skinned hid

mr tanner..you know the folds in your books
wont unfold anything too smelly
your planning a come back

still a party loyalist
who got out when he read the ju-liar writing on the wall
and dont want to be under the spiked heel
of a bleach bottle boys own,..red witch..[with a b]

once she has gone..you will come back
the book[lol]..is just your play
for a replay..of howhard's way

There is little point in any one rebutting claims about Shadow Minister if he continually kicks the leg out from under their comments.
He did so in his last post,I am greatly pleased to understand he has little direction and understanding of politics.
I from post one never defended the grubs and slugs from my party who during/before and after being in Parliament committed sex crimes or any other ones.
I will forever see bigotry and silliness in any claim, Labors culture brings these things about.
I ask every one to see, with a half good leader my party tops the fist preference vote every time.
Do not include, or of you wish ok, the National party two different party's the latter a servant of the first.
Give me no two party preferred just our primary vote.
Of special interest to me ALWAYS has been just who in OLO can be blinded to truth by their own political opinions.
WHO OF YOU WILL TELL OF ABBOTT'S FAULTS?
I will not refrain from talking about open bigotry and flaming in use here.

Belly,

The few predictions I have made have all been spot on. Yours almost without exception have been horribly wrong.

Your facile criticisms of the blatantly obvious Labor flaws do not make you balanced, rather not to notice them would require some level of psychosis.

Pelican,

The changes that the ALP are discussing have been raised at just about every Labor conference for decades. So far there is much talk, but no signs of any concrete change. The leaders have too much personal vested interest to allow the changes to happen.

You use this line often Shadow Minister.
It falls flat on its face every time, only in your head is the thread about my understanding of politics.
Yet again you see a form of mental illness in my posts.
And want the world to think that is what drives me to complain about my party.
You mate,use more and harsher insults more often, than some who clearly do have a mental health issue.
It says far more about you than me.
I see signs of child like need to hurt me,you fail, and evidence you understand how unbalanced your comments are.
We joked about engineers,but you add to the understanding most have, looking for common sense is a waste of time from many of them.
I Sir truly,honestly wish you well, living in your head must be uncomfortable for you and those who have no choice but to put up with you.
Remember your maths training, to both over estimate you ability's and under estimate your opponents is to out number your self

Belly,

Please try reading your posts before sending them. I can almost see the spittle on them. For incoherence you are challenging UOG.

I came here early this morning.
Over night I questioned my reason for using OLO.
It had not been a good night, infected feet.
As I often do I asked myself to review why I get into conflict with such as Shadow Minister.
Heated? slobbering? no quite calm SM see, hidden but not deeply in your last few posts is some thing very clear.
You are lashing out.
While retreating you slander me.
Your printed words show,clearly,you feel you lost the debate.
Need to take the focus from your silliness and put it on me.
You fail, I have doubts you hold the credits to your name you claim.
I can see no reasoning in you no balance no understanding, I place no value on your taunts, question just why you have so very much rope to flame and slander.
Above all my next post here questions the damage one sided slander and support that never finds fault with your own belief just may forever taint my country politics.
Throw your mud but know this, your out pourings are often as lost as those of any who ever posted here.

This thread raises for me questions.
Every Australian voter has a right to his/her opinion.
And to in my view be less than pleased with our current federal government, my party.
The promise of Kevin 07 turned to mud.
The hope turned to stones in our belly's.
I know almost for sure without change my party can not win the election.
But some here, who never find fault with their party,say I do not believe what I post?
Or do so to cover up,,for my party's faults?
Labor /greens/conservatives all claim this of me.
What future for our country's politics.
Do we then say one side is always wrong the other right.
Only look at Labors faults not Conservatives.
Read an editorial in this morning Sydney Telegraph know you are reading a LIBERAL PROPAGANDA paper.
Yet it has spoken of a machine within the Liberal machine that is toxic.
In NSW not not yet I still breath easier for my party's loss, still think Barry should be given his chance but like Canberra we will be electing the unknown and we will pay.
My country has too many Shadow Ministers.
Too many who look only at my sides faults and for ever hide their own
We can do far better than that.
Do not hide in the greens,Conservatives prosper as the greens grow but demand better from Labor.
Know we here see daily Tony Abbott's only scripted policy, the only one he believes in constant fear mongering and slander Do you write his scripts SM?

Belly,

I would suggest you look up the definition of the terms libel, slander and defamation. Once you do, you will find that nothing I have posted falls under any of these definitions. As to do so would mean that what I have posted is either false, and a direct accusation.

However, in directly accusing me of defamation and slander, you are guilty of exactly what you accuse me of.

That the government under Juliar has deliberately misled the electorate, happily junked the solemn promises it made only a few months previously, squandered the greatest revenue stream in the history of the country, and stuffed up the implementation of every major policy it has implemented is the reason that nobody trusts the ALP any more and would rather listen to Abbott.

TA has skilfully out manoeuvred Juliar at every opportunity, and is now presenting the electorate with a viable alternative.

Similarly, the state labor governments are in equal strife, and the Brand ALP is now tied in the electorate's mind to incompetence, promoting its own interests over that of the electorate, and dishonesty.

i will address both your parties here

unless you divide..BOTH your own houses
giving people..a real left/right direction choice!
you both not going to rule

independants will soon also fail
stooges for one or the other same right wing party elite's

i would like a real choice
between a left direction alp/lib
or a right wing alp/lib

the pox is on both your parties
the excess of alp..is only exceeded
by the excess of the liberals..nerither deserve power
both will do the same hurt..look how howard raped the poor..

now alp doing the same..
both serve big business
yet its the unrepresented swill..who give you the power
if govt dont serve the people..the people will eventually stop paying tax

think about it

the first party to give us a choice
gives us a voice..well they are ahead of the game

we know tony will be bad
we know juliar is bad

so its best alp change..
sooner rather than later

if not then the upcomming..global melt/down
soon sorts both of you

stop bailing out the rick
PS watch the future

sbs..last nights cutting edge
about how big gas does its thing

recalling alp qld
is letting 80,000 of these things be built
and using our 'infastructure levy''on electric power
to pay for the pipeline that delivers it to gladstone
so the allready rich..can get 60 billion in gas sales

while the poor sit in the dark..
not able to afford even turning on a light

cause govt gave OUR money
to the elite..wanting a pipeline to china

the same elites..who put solar cells..
on their* roofs..for near nothing

and built a pipeline..
to pump our money..[gas].....
via industrialists..elites

..selling our gas..to china

OUG your post is only marginally, sillier than Shadow Ministers.
Are you even aware the current party's and their ancestors are the ONE ONES TO EVER RULE Australia.
I feel like I am doing verbal combat with a mother in law, balance truth nothing has an impact on such.
In time one under God you may come to understand your views are not always near true.
No such luck for Shadow Minister.
As we move closer to a conservative federal government, one driven by such, we move also to an understanding we are not served by hangers on blindly claim sainthood for one side.

maybe its good you dont speak for your party belly

""Are you even aware the current party's
and their ancestors are the ONE ONES TO EVER RULE Australia.""

im presuming you intended to write only ones..
but still lets be carefull eh?

quote..""OUG your post is only
marginally,sillier than Shadow Ministers.""

maybe its better
for those who cant read or write
to think we are silly..but no doudt shadow
is as much miffed at what we*think..your trying to say

""I feel like I am doing verbal combat
with a mother in-law,""

sorry pop
im just not getting what your saying

""balance truth nothing has an impact on such.""

i could guess
and read it as balanced truth
maybe its balancing truth

nope
it still dont regester as proper english

im going to presume you meant to say

balanced truth..dosnt regester as truth
with..such as that are..'like mothers in-laws''

but even that dont make sense

""you may come to understand
your views are not always near true."'

i know this
but do you realise
the same applies to all of us

but then you go and spil it all
""No such luck for Shadow Minister.""

belly comeon mate
he is at least able..to say..what he thinks
[and get away with flaming alp..mate that takes skill]

i for one gotta respect that

but more from..you

''As we move closer
to a conservative federal government,""

well mate they are more clever...than a juliar
and her backroom guys reaping in cash..thinking up ever more tax
[only to hand it out
to the labour party supporters..party machine men's mates]

''consevative govt..one driven by such,"'

..one driven by such...what?..
even the origonal line didnt read right

""we move also to an understanding
we are not served by hangers on
[who]..blindly claim sainthood for one side.""

I AGREE WITH THAT BIT
and rekon shadow couldnt argue it either

anyhow cheers mate

[im more for lab..than lib]

but not the way..lab..
has become..lib..point 2

same same..
shame we cant tell the difference

It is now time for me to leave this thread.
A Field of verbal combat it was planned to be and did that well.
While no longer active bush fire fighting,I can still see and fight a flame.
Nearly got to the very bottom of the barrel, I was again, going to post ten post tiles and ten posts from SM.
But no, one of us has to act like an adult.
Nothing lost here, I rather think the day is near when SM will be hoisted on his own verbal sword.
note bin laden was killed in a place named Abbottabad, got a grin out of both the death and the name.
Play on boys I look for other subjects.

Belly leaves the thread having left a record number of posts without saying anything.

All that can be summed up from his posts is:
ALP bad,
Abbott worse,
Shadow bad.

You failed to address the record number of criminals in the ALP mate. Try balancing my facts with some of your own.