http://www.helium.com/items/2129635-nasa-admits-all-previous-warming-trends-caused-by-sun Prof George Kukla is one of the world's top paleoclimatologists.He has been saying for decades that the Earth's usual state,is much cooler than now and we are headed for an ice age.NASA also now say that the prime driving factor for past warmings,was the sun.There are now 20,000 scientists around the planet trying to bring some balance back into the climate debate.

Today however is different when debating warming,because politics,money and power have pre-judged or silenced real analysis of the facts.

Perhaps Julia and the Greens can bring an ice tax to combat climate change and stop us entering an ice age.So from carbon tax,to an ice tax ,black can become white.George Orwell would love it! I bet that if Julia did announce and ice tax to avert an ice age,a large % of the pop would believe and accept it.

Better still we could have a god tax on all the religions.That's it! Blame god.

In all reality our major problem is the Corporate control of our Govts.Fukushima should not have happened along with the GFC and the expansion of the wars for power and profit.

Our Govts have never been so incompetent and impotent because they a making the decisions based on rich and powerful interest groups.They don't reflect the will of the people.

I am again in awe at the world you live in arjay.
In my world it has always been understood the Sun controls our climate.
And the moon our tides.
What surprises me most is your conspiracy theory's may well be a conspiracy.
I think you are victim to very real cover ups trying to hide the real condition of world problems.
Climate change, financial concerns, hidden crimes and needless wars,supported by miss information.

Belly against all logic,why do think Julia is bringing in a carbon tax and an ETS? It is all about funnelling money to a few rich elites.10% of a carbon tax is destined for the UN.The UN is not a truely democratic body.The ETS is just another derivative scam.Heard of the New World Order Belly? It is AGW that is being used to justify an unelected world Govt.Just look at the bureaucracy now here.You would have absolutely no rights.Also in this mix is the movement to a Global Currency.Have you really thought about the consequences Belly?

Many of these elites see population being the major threat to the world's environment.They want to reduce the world's pop by 66%.Due to the GFC Obama,says one billion people will enter serious poverty.

Why do they spend so much on arms to kill people.The USA has at the ready mini-nukes and some say they have already used them in Bagdad and covered up the radiation by using depleted uranium which produces 40% less radiation than the standard stuff.Mini -nukes are small enough to put on the end of a canon shell.nano technologhy has made this possible.So the US controlled Corp Govt sees that mini-nukes are the solution to conquering China and Russia.

Zibigniew Brzezinski said recently," In the past it was easier to control and million people than to kill them.Today it is far easier to kill a million people."

Humans are seen as the threat to their power because there are too many of us.The advancement of robotics makes human labour less needed and so were are no longer useful in extending their power base.We are using up the World's resources and destroying their environment.

Prince Charles."If ever I'm re-incarnated,I want to came back as a deadly virus and reduce the world's pop." Maurice Strong the ex -secretary of the UN is another eugenics exponent.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction, Arjay?

>>Today however is different when debating warming,because politics,money and power have pre-judged or silenced real analysis of the facts<<

This is in stark contrast to your opening salvo...

>>There are now 20,000 scientists around the planet trying to bring some balance back into the climate debate<<

That's an awful lot of noise, from people who have been "silenced".

Just sayin'.

Belly,
You say "In my world it has always been understood the Sun controls our climate.
And the moon our tides".

If you think that, how come you believe in AGW, as per your views in other threads?

Can you explain why your beloved ALP supports a very high immigration policy and its advantage to Aus?

Can you tell me why the Libs and Labor have an agreement not to debate immigration issues, as brokered by Hawke PM.

I have a conspiracy theory about this which is that both parties are in the pockets of big business and 'he who pays the piper, calls the tune'. Each year our living standards go down because of increasing population, so there is no advantage for Australians.

The real reason the major parties will not debate immigration is because they could be embarrased by the outcome.

Let be fair dinkum Banjo in part we are alike.
And in some things far from it.
First I have come to see population in our country is fastly out growing our ability to handle.
And yes with out doubt, business controls our migration policy's, and share holders interested only in profits.
Can you make room to put aside, just for debate, your intense views on climate change?
Given the rate of population growth, forget climate, is it possible we are hurting this planet.
Now ARJAY, MATE! our earths climate ,the one that allowed humanity to develop from the smallest thing, is driven by the sun.
It always has and will be.
The effect of the sun on every layer of the atmosphere is known, including like it or not those gasses we call climate change ones
And no doubt exists, even your scientists mostly do not doubt it is happening only why.
And PLEASE!!are you aware most of your quoted bought by business scientist are from other Fields not climate.
Humor lives in your post for me, you jump at conspiracy theory's but clearly ignore the truth, self interest drives both sides of climate change.
One has the interests of the earth in mind the other cash and carry! it will not be me stuff I want to be rich and beggar the future.
Tax? if it was just tax we would have 14% GST.

Banjo"How come you believe is AGW as per views expressed in other posts'That is an out and out lie Banjo and you know it.I've always been na AGW skeptic and most on this site know that.It just irks you that the tables and turning and the climate scare mongerers are losing the debate.

Pericles the 20,000 scientists never got media coverage.It is the media that sets the parameters of the debate not the scientists.The Corporates at the pyramid apex have a vested interest in AGW for justifying their eugenics philosophy and bring in ETS and carbon taxes.They benefit from both.

Belly,
I am being fair dinkum. Arjay may well be a conspiracy theorist, but you have just agreed with me that both major parties and big business are involved in a conspiracy relating to immigration. This makes both you and I conspiracy theorists as well. You don't put forward any other reason why Labot supports very high immigration.

You can see my views on world population on that current thread. In Aus we need to drasticaly cut immigration and train our own skilled workers.

On other threads you support human induced climate change and now you say climate is controled by the sun, so which is it?

I do not have intense views on human induced climate change. I am a sceptic and wait for proof of what the alarmists like Flannery and Gore say. Dispite many years and billions spent, proof is not existant. I think it is stupid to spend money on a problem which may not exist or we have no control over.

Arjay, take control mate.
That remark was CLEARLY ADDRESSED AT ME.
You owe Banjo a sorry mate.

What an odd title for a discussion.

NASA notices the sun, yup, in fact they noticed the sun for a long time now, long enough to write the following interesting history of of the effects of sunspot activity over the eons.

http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/SunspotCycle.shtml

Just as Climatologists have studied past and present climate cycles. All of this research in order to understand the many and varied influences on earth's atmosphere and the impact of pollutants into the atmosphere before drawing conclusions.

Unlike the Andrew Bolt brigade who not only have never studied science but, unlike scientists, are incapable of looking at issues from all sides.

Ammonite,
Could you post Andrew Bolt's denial of the sun affecting atmosphere.

Arjay,
That remark by me was directed to Belly, as was the whole post.

Banjo. "In other threads you have supported humans induced climate change and no you say climate is controlled by the sun." Not so.I have never dealt in absolutes in regards to man's affect on climate.

The IPCC did not include the influence of the sun in its' studies.NASA now admits that the radiant energy during Sun spot activity does increase from 1.36 watts per sq m to 1.4 watts per sq m.This is an increase of 2.9% in total energy.Is this not enough to raise global temps? Why have temps fallen since 2007 when we have expodential increases in CO2 by China and India?

I have always argued that CO2 is not the monster we all claim.It is a warming gas but is a very small part of our atmosphere.I have not supported your assertion that I said it is good that humans are changing climate.I have joked that we may have to burn more carbon to stop an ice age.There is not enough Carbon on the planet to stop an ice age.A scientist told me recently that if all the carbon on the planet was burned ,global temps would increase by 2 deg C.I have always believed that the Sun is an major influence and the fact this system is too complex for fools like Al Gore to say the science is settled.

Yes; both the major parties and a fair % of the Greens are controlled by large corporate interests.Why does not Bob Brown support the BDS against Israel for the theft of Palistinian land and their oppression?

Banjo,yes I do apologise for assuming your comments at Belly,were levelled at me.

Belly, Pericles and others call me a conspiracy theorist.I deal in scientific facts not theory.Ken O'keefe posted on youtube a cartoon which to my dismay I cannot recover.In short is was always thus.A farmer and his sheep dog were rounding up an flock of sheep.Trevor the thinking sheep stood aside from the flock trembling in fear.The flock shouted in unison to Trevor,"You are a nut job conspiracy theorist!" Trevor responded,"I swear by almighty God that farmer and that dog are working together!"

The moral of the story being is that elites, who have too much time and power in their hands will always find better ways of developing more control over the masses.The Sheeple are too busy surviving to realise that this is the way they have always done things throughout history.Have you ever read Shakespear's work?

Banjo,come on you said you would be fair dinkum.
My last day at school In a then hamlet called Yanderra saw me leave without being able to write.
I was 13 but I knew then, know still our earth has life, all life, because of the Sun.
While cooling the sun generated life, it made our atmosphere, it still does.
Let me be clear I THINK MAN MADE CLIMATE CHANGE IS TRUE.
I think we can link human population growth from the start of the industrial revolution till now as the driver.
Our miss use of the planet and burning of fossil fuels in that time.
I think a true conspiracy driven by self interested country's and fuel owners has many refusing to look.
Banjo, you surely do not doubt, both party's bend to the monster eating this planet growth.
It has taken me a lifetime to see.
But growth puts dollars in current generations pockets by thieving it from future ones.
I am a conspiracy believer,just not the ones arjay is side tracked on.

dont think im picking on you belly
but i need to quote you

""While cooling the sun generated life,""
mate that simply speaking is bull
cooling in itself dosnt do much
even science hasnt made life
let alone knows how it was made[yes it has theories..but thats just theory]

cooling/sun""it made our atmosphere,it still does.""
again belly no
the sun dosnt make atmosphere...in fact does its best to blow it away

if they are your only guesses to support
""I THINK MAN MADE CLIMATE CHANGE IS TRUE.""
mate think again
""we can link human population growth from the start of the industrial revolution till now as the driver.""

mate the cause of the industrial revolution was because we emerged from the mini ice age[middle ages]...into a warming environment..this led to the age of invention the victorian age..[underpinning the undustrial evolution]

fossil fueld didnt start the warming
the earths orbit[arround the sun did]
its not a circular orbit..it is more egg shaped
at times we are closer..like now..then other times further so we get cooling..add in the sun spot cycle..where we get wetter periods etc

its the sun son
think belly..the earth is IN outerspace
outerspace is feeezing..well below zero degrees
[think of like you being in a freezer the only protection from the space frezer..and us is the atmosphere only barely keeping the heat in

fool scientists mucking about with it
with methane cfc's and nitrouse oxide gas
[ie greenhouse gasses NOT TAXED][will bring in the next ice age]

WE need warming..!

[ya think those
who really run things
want more of us?..or less of them?]

saying opps we were wrong....yeah right

mate they never admit what they really are doing

think how long solar cells
[or gas wells will last]

EVEN THEIR CURE
isnt no permanent fix
we are being conned..into a new tax
to subsidise the wrong solutions to the wrong problem's

Belly,
I am always fair dinkum, I would never deliberately try to mislead you, or anyone else, that is not my nature and I trust my opinions are based on the facts as I know them. Besides there are plenty here, on OLO, that would soon put me straight if I stray from that. Certainly I make mistakes, but try hard to keep them rare.

You are right about the growth in population since the industrial revolution, but that has to do with more food production and better transport. Vastly improved medicine, in western countries by way of vacines and anti-biotics lead to the survival of millions. Fosil fuels was very much part of this, firstly with coal, which revolutionized transport and then oil.

I disagree with you about man made climate change as I think it one of those things we have no influence over, like tides and earthquakes. But if the facts change, I will change my mind. I think the activity on the sun has an influence on climate but am not sure about how much.

I share your concern about the world population growth and I think religion is stopping us from implementing measures, like in Iran, to gradually reduce the current birthrates in those countries that really require a reduction. Very high immigration by Aus will not solve this problem, but only increase our own problems. i.e. Water and other infastructure, transport.

greg con/bet..was spuiking his spin..at the pressclub

it was sickening...he said stuff about us not going it alone[quoting things that might happen soon]..generalisations about greenhouse gasses..but only taxing co2

he didnt dare look at the camera
thus knows he is selling a lie

he steadfastly looked to the left..looked to the right
HE..knows..he is selling a lie

mentioned yet again only 1000 biggest poluters will need to buy permits..[pushed on to us the consumer..then we pay..

so why use the spin grog/con-bet...
its taxing us..[any fool knows we will pay..plus give those 1000 poluters a bonus..for collecting the tax..FROM US]

it is getting harder to listen to the
spin of the grog..[greg]..comming from con/BET

[he did admit some of the tax was going to remove nitrous-oxide from coal-gas fumes..

so knows nitrouse-oxide is a greenhouse gas..
yet refuses to tax that one..just co2..[screw you greg]

ps note all the steel pipes govt is putting in
to deliver the 'gas' to the ports..[where it needs to be cooled before sending it overseas to make money for capitalists..getting their pipeline..[infastructure]..put in..*on our increased electricity and gas charges

please note the co2..cost of cooling the gas
is huge..as was reported re western australia experience
where that process has increased their co2 output

so much for gas being the better 'fix'

wanna con/bet the fix is in?

our prices going up..to pay for capitalists infastructure!

these people are the lobby..
we saw on the news last week
begging govt for their new tax break[co2 tax]

but today the same numbers were on the streets
lobbying for their govt grants..to do science/research

[my points being..special intrest groups
can get big numbers in the street's..

so those..wanting the tax..
are just those getting the govt grants..[solar/gas export mob]

worse they say things like a cure costs 3 million
to save 2 billion...[i forget re what disease]

but they also mentioned..the vacination we found in oz
but then gave to overseas intrests

thing is research 'wins'
dont go back into our tax coffers

nor will the co2 trading..
no tax..no cash-back...NO/grants..[get it?]

Fair enough Banjo we have more in common than you think.
OUG come Friend do you truly think it is an international conspiracy to tax the poor and give to the rich?
Then you have confused Labors policy's with Abbott's old mate.
Banjo, hope you saw Combet at the national press club, he spoke very well, IF REPORTED WITHOUT BIAS will have settled many concerns.
Now population FORGET TOTALLY climate change.
Surely just our growing numbers, use of fossil fuels,destruction of farming land and water.
If those combined have not threated the planets health nothing ever will want to bet your grand kids kids life on it?

of course the rich care for the poor
there are plenty of em..and that just reveals how good they are to them

bosses are falling over themselves
to give extra bonus to the workers

WHY WE NEED UNIONS IS THE REAL SCAM
those union blood suckers mate
WHO NEEDS THEM

we need only a boss and a job
we should be gratefull
when the boss says mate we need you to work a double shift[for normal pay]

we should be gratefull if the LET us work them without saftey protection...[darn interfering govts]

we should be HAPPY to die on the job
to get poisend..by working WHEREVER the boss needs us to work

heck the bosses are great/mate

BUT..them whining unionists
all they want is OUR union money
and us..to go on strike..when they chose to drop their hat

thank god we got boses
and alp govt[we can sure tell the differnce betwen their policies
liberals wanted carbon trading..but juliar said NO TAX from any govt i lead...so we get both a new tax and trading

yeah mate bosses are great
flick alp..flick unionists
they both wear suits

noting they only gave you a tee/shirt
you sold your soul for

cant touch YOU
YOUR part of the union
flick every one else

i recall compulsory unionism
that gives you the big clue
do as we say..either at work..or when we get to govern *over you

bah
rapistrs in union shirts or black suits..or t/shirts
are all rapists..wether alp rapists or liberal or green

by their deeds will you know them
or party policy
not by their party
because their policies are the same

one brings in new taxes
then the next brings in new taxes

flick them both
and unions
and lobby
and business assosiations

and all the other toffs..who like to boss others arround
love to talk or walk..while others work

the blue collar toffs are the worst..[in-house/boys]
pretending they are like us
but in reality the're

*just like them

Looks like you're on a roll arjay:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11893#203854

Sorry One Under God I have always bent down to scratch the ear of any under dog.
But I have no idea what drives you and you seem not to either.
You get extra heated on the subject of smoking and climate,

Belly with all this extra heat from fuming humans we will certainly have global warming.

Quaint Philo, but did the God you follow not make the Sun too.
History is full of Gods and many of them relate to the Sun source of life to very many past humans.
So it is chuckle worthy to see arjay has only just found it and discovered its impacts.
I go all funny as the E layer gets sporadic ionization!
Bazz may tell you why.
And the sunspot cycle is watched like a kid waits for Christmas by Ham radio operators.

Whatever happens in the future, someone, somewhere will consider it to be god's will - irrespective of which religion they follow and what their prayers were about.

Which has nothing to do with topic - although the topic never really was a topic to begin with - probably god's will at work.

I must have been too suble for you.
Was trying to prove even before science man has known of the impacts on earth of the Sun.

If Prof Geroge Kukla is right and we are headed for an ice age,this will be far more catastrophic than global warming.No amount of carbon burning will stop the reduction in the Sun's energy.Perhaps greenhouse technology coupled with hydoponics will save many from starvation.He says that an ice age can happen as quickly as 10 yrs.

Global warming would be a better scenario for most on this planet.

What drives people to believe in the thing that is not possible to test as part of experiment? What drive people to give money in either tax or otherwise after the words that CO2 which is good for the plants in close proximity to the polluter would suddenly become not so good on some indefined part of the earth at some indefined time. Whould you pay for the observation station to be stared building in year 2097 to observe your backyard where might or might not fall meteorite some time in 22 century or any time later?
Any scheme to get your money by crooks would include concerns about welfare, frightening information and asking for money under promise to help to avoid the situation in concern with no direct contractual obligations. Except for money taken from you there would not any material thing but words, words, words. We need to learn to separate words from the reality

please, read above 'UNidentified part of earth' and 'UNidentified time'

>> What drives people to believe in the thing that is not possible to test as part of experiment? <<

Ummm, Tatiana ... it is possible to test (we are doing it now).

Problem is, we only have one test-tube, we don't have another Earth to run a controlled experiment.

If you want to argue about how to adapt to a changing climate (how to pay for it ... when, by whom, where and so on) then please contribute.

If you want to argue the science then may I humbly suggest you read up on it.

Arjay

You believe what you want to believe and no one is going to change that.

However, the lengths you go to promote so much FUD is truly staggering.

Life isn't just one big bad conspiracy theory mate, so why do you do it?

Hay Bonmot, you know how that old one goes don't you?

You can fool some of the people some of the time.
You can feed some of the people all of the time.
If they are academics, & you have enough money, they will try to help you fool the rest.