A couple of thoughts on the "moral relativism" aspect that was part of the opening post.

Just where in the bible does it forbid the use of a webcam and Skype to broadcast a sexual encounter to friends? If it's not there there then we are all in the same boat relatively speaking.

For the rest is what the cadet's are alleged to have done so fundamentally different to other breaches of sexual privacy which seem to be widely accepted. People sharing details of sexual encounters with friends. Kiss and tell book's. Snoop photo's making the front page of magazines and morning TV.

There is a massive breach of trust involved in the incident if the description of it is true but I do wonder about the level of outrage expressed when so many other actions which can bring a lot of embarasment to the subject are mainstream.

R0bert

"'He that got butted had been in the habit of asking young inexperienced boys to give him their rifle while on guard, when they did he would put them on a charge for giving him their rifle. '

A mild form of bastardisation I would say. Bullying hierarchical culture with humiliation based initiation rights-of-passage. I support it wholeheartedly.Posted by Houellebecq, Monday, 11 April 2011 5:39:20 PM".

Not mild at all as the young soldier could expect at least 5 days confined to barracks, if not 14 days.

'Confined to Barracks' meant getting up an hour before everyone else and reporting to the Duty Sergeant, who if he was a good bloke, would give the lad a few light jobs for half an hour. Then he would be free for the normal days work.
At the end of the work day he would report to the DS and do half an hours extra drill, or he might be told to report back in 'Full Field Dress' i.e. both packs, water bottle, one blanket, rifle and bayonet. Packs correctly filled with spare clothes, boots etc.
If the DS was a bastard he might then order the lad to come back in Leave Parade Dress. This would be rubbing it in as all of his leave was cancelled until the end of punishment.
Dismissed for Dinner.
After dinner report again and usually sent to work cleaning pots and pans or whatever in one of the Messes until 9:00 PM.

He still has to get his kit ready for tomorrow, clean his rifle etc., and this goes on every day till the sentence is complete.

Mild barstardisation? Hardly.

Got anymore insights into your lack of knowledge to share with us?

IsMise,

It's all in the same category as left handed screwdrivers and striped paint and chicken lips. Initiation rituals to humiliate the new boys and keep them in their place, and test out whether they can be a 'good sport'.

It's exactly the kind of thing pelican's admonishing, just a different degree.

pelican,

'The bastardisation rituals are archaic.'

So is marriage.

'These sorts of rituals are not positive nor do they instil trust or feelings of security about the men fighting along side you in war.'

Yeah they are. They are a positive for all the people who are part of the joke and who set up the ritual; the team, and they exclude the different, non-team players. Obedience is needed. Lack of subservience must be punished.

'I would rather have a soldier next to me who had defended me against a group of sadistic neanderthals than took advantage of a vulnerability ie. new cadet.'

It's best to eradicate vulnerabilities before you get to the battlefield. Who wants someone beside you who cried because you asked them to buy chicken lips and they don't exist. It's a cunning selection process. They don't need passengers.

Remember pelican, it takes a sadistic Neanderthal to fight a sadistic Neanderthal. How are you going to win against another army where anything goes for them. Like fighting with one arm tied behind your back that is.

'Often it is those who are speaking out about these behaviours that show courage.'

NO! They're the 'I'm special' me me me lot. They need to be dragged down a peg and fit in with the team culture. Trouble makers need to be eradicated before you're in a trench and one of the 'soldiers' is refusing to fight because he wasn't asked nicely enough.

'Not the namby pambys who hide behind the screen of 'manhood' afraid to do the right thing'

What's manhood got to do with it? Ah, so your objections are really just bigoted sexism by proxy. The right thing is to prepare the team for sadistic battle. The team is paramount, not the me me me individual.

Tell me pelican, do you want these bleeding heart types to be bleeding hearts with the enemy too? I bet you were upset at the racist remarks from a soldier towards the Afghans too. When you get your way, the soldiers wont be able to come at killing the enemy, because that wont be the right thing to do.

I cant wait to see one of your soldiers turn on the rest of the Aussies and shoot them all from behind for political reasons after one too many Pilger books.

Houlley
I can't tell if you're joking.

The scenario does not have to be so black and white. Neither bleeding heart nor sadistic neanderthal. Even a bleeding heart is going to defend themselve in the face of an attack if it means life and death. They are not going to say "don't shoot me you poor delusional thing, let's be brothers".

The culture within Defence is well known but still nobody does a thing. Vulnerability of a new cadet is real, he/she can be trained to be a good soldier and that does not mean following orders to belittle someone - how is that character building. It is lemming building that is about all - and there is a difference between lemmings and those who follow orders in war. The sorts of bastardisation rituals that go on are dehumanising. It will be interesting to see what details are in the Rufus Black Report once details are revealed (if they are to be revealed).

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3188513.htm

Houlley I doubt a follower of John Pilger would be in the army in the first place, they would most probably be more of the type we need. That is, those who respect human rights even in war. You can be a good soldier and still act with dignity.

I'm looking forward to the day when the world is largely a place of independent democratic nations where war will no longer be such a common occurrence. It has to happen eventually and the one positive thing about globalisation is the flow of information will assist to that end.

Posted by *Houellebecq* Monday, 11 April 2011 11:11:19 AM

" ... It's a very powerful institution that can corrupt young men away from the morals their parents gave them in 3 months. ... "

*DreamOn* (quote from the song lyrics)

" ... One night in Bangkok makes a hard man humble
Not much between despair and ecstasy
One night in Bangkok and the tough guys tumble
Can't be too careful with your company
I can feel the *Devil* walking next to me ... "

We would do do well to remember that relatively few Australian laws have extra-territorial effect. Exceptions include - pedophilia, treason, a few others ..

Same thing with "LawLess Zones" during the times of the wholesale massacres of *Original Australians* in Australia.

Posted by *Runner* Sunday, 10 April 2011 7:15:46 PM

" ... I would equate putting this immoral act on skype the same as taking photos of young teen girls and displaying them in the name of art. They are both abhorent. ... "

Of course, in practical terms, I think that many would succumb in less than 3 hrs, let alone 3 months *Houelly* As for age, well, by age matters are reckoned not in some jurisdictions outside of Australia, but rather by the timing of the young lady's 1st period, consistent with 1 crude adage that I was made aware of as a lad growing up in Perth, Western Australia.

" ... Old enough to Bleed, Old enough to Butcher! ... "

Rituals of the ADF in places like *Pattaya* include, but are not limited to, "Top & Tail Buddying and Bonding" with 2 members of the ADF and 1 Likely Young Lady, where kudos is awarded for the quantity and quality of the wenches bedded per unit of time etc.

I suspect that the young lady at the centre of the ADF Skype live broadcast scandal did not realise that she was destined for the "Trophy Cabinet."