The tender to build the NBN has collapsed because all of the tenders submitted were substantially higher than in the NBN business case.

The $36bn figure that has been presented as the cost of building the NBN is looking like a mirage, with the lowest tenders being in the order of 20% higher.

In one fell swoop this adds more than $7bn to the price tag, and if one includes the $11bn free gift of the Telstra network and other costs, the total cost to the tax payer is heading towards $60bn or $10 000 per household.

It looks at doubling the cost of internet access to city dwellers if this is passed onto consumers.

Yes is true SM that the sale of our profitable communications monopoly to overseas owned private interests by the Howard Gov't has/is proving a stumbling block for the current Gov't in its attempt to restore Australia's communications sovereignty to Australia, through the NBN.

It is also true that the Gov't has opened up the process of tendering for the NBN building contract instead of giving preference to a set of preferred tenderer's as has been the convention so far. As I understand it, it is commercially and financially astute for the Gov't
to seek the best price possible, with regard to the value the taxpayer will get for their investment in building the NBN.

Of course the NBN is not simply an argument about cost SM. Until we actually know what that is compared to the product itself.
The benefits of the NBN may well far outway such one dimensional point scoring at this time, in the end.

Thinker2,

You're right, it is not just about the staggering cost of the exercise,

It is about the nebulous benefits that government has completely failed to identify, and refuses to take to a cost benefit analysis,

It is about creating a huge government owned and funded monopoly,

It is about paying $11bn for the existing network and destroying it to prevent competition,

It is about passing laws that legalise people installing equipment on your property without permission, and requiring you to provide written request not to have trespassers.

It is about putting in laws that make it illegal to compete with the NBN,

And finally it is about delivering a base service in the cities in a few years that costs approximately double what it does today.

Essentially the taxpayer is being raped by having his taxes funnelled into a white elephant, and then having to pay inflated prices for decades later with no alternative.

Thinker2,
I was and still are filthy with the howard government for selling of testra. Just imagine where we would be today if we had been able to hold, rather than sell.

Trouble is, it was the gross mismanagement and waste from the previous labor government that forced howard's hand and, as if this wasn't enough to make one puke, here they are (labor) doing the same thing again a decade or so later.

Trouble is, what's left to sell!

It's all well and good to go out and try to look important and try to run the country when one has money in the bank to start with, however, now that our money is gone and our credit card has decades of debt, with little to show for it, what now.

Let's just take a little look at labor's recent ideas.
1. Insulation - Flop! Cost lives + billions and still counting.
2. Solar - Flop!
3. Fuel watch - Flop!
4. Grocery watch -Flop!
5. I will take charge of the health system myself (rudd) - Flop!
6. Copenhagen - Flop!
7. Boat people - Flop!
8. Mining tax - Flop!
9. Stimulus - Semi Flop!
10.NBN - Looking like a flop.

Now even the most loyal labor supporter must admit that's a pretty poor record for someone in power for less than 4 years.

This NBN is yet another poorly planned idea that labor has jumped in to without doing the research.

All we (the tax payer) wants is value for money and that is something labor simply can not be trusted to deliver.

Even you have to agree with that.

Dear Thinker 2,

I found this on my email sent to me by a colleague from work. It may be of interest to people:

"The Gillard government has managed to pass another milestone in the task of restructuring the telecommunications sector and correcting more than two decades of market failure. This is no mean feet. This was done with 2 bills passing through parliament. The bills establish how the Co. - NBN Co which has been set up to deliver NBN will operate. The bills ensure that NBN Co - operates as an open-access wholesale only network to support vigorous retail level competition for Australian consumers."

"There's no doubt that the NBN will chnage the way we live and work in Australia. It will drive economic growth and open up opportunities for local businesses to expand and reach new markets. It will also mean that our children will get access to education through new delivery models and that all Australians will have access to health care services without leaving home."

Hi Lexi, thanks for your information regarding progress and the NBN in parliament.

I also understand the uptake has been outstanding in the roll out electorates so far.
I think it is really exciting to ponder the possibilities with super fast internet.

And it's true that recent Govt's haven't fared that well Rehctub, but it's also true that the debt level we now have is over emphasised, and a relative inconsequence, in proportion to the debt in other countries. We actually fared very well in relation to other first world countries at the depth of the GFC. And our debt level is minuscule even now, by comparison.

Why not invest in something truly innovative like the NBN ,while we can ?.

As for waste, why not consider the signing by Howard, regarding the U.S. Strike Fighter contracts, (in a motel room) as a waste of public money of massive proportion. Considering that the very same type of un-costed open ended contracts over the very same aircraft, have now caused the un-seating of the Canadian Gov't through a successful no confidence motion in it's Parliament. Or similar ?.

Had we had the tender process requested by the defence people at that time, we would have discovered that there are better aircraft anyway, that are not still on the drawing board, that also have stealth capability, equal or better strike power, and greater range.

How many billions, is the get out clause ?. Probably more than enough to pay for the NBN.

Hay Thinker, I find it interesting that you have to justify the lousy performance of our Labor lot, by suggesting that they are not as bad as someone else.

Wouldn't it make more to judge our governments by how well they do something, rather than cast around to find someone even worse?

I suppose with Julia in the chair it must have taken some time to find a worse example, even if only in your mind.

Lexi and Thinker2,

The NBN will actually hinder growth, as it will restrict people to only the inflated expensive NBN.

Internet is presently cheaper than the base level offered under the NBN, and the format of wireless is growing at exponential speed:

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Wireless-internet-posts-fastest-growth-FH8RN?OpenDocument&src=rab

With the continual delays and cost increases, we will all be saddled with the most expensive white dinosaur in the world.

PS. The voluntary take up rates have been well below those required for the NBN to be financially viable, which is why Federal Labor is going to pass a law to require Opt out.

Ironically SM the only way I can post on OLO without internet dropouts is by plugging the cable in. My wireless service in a regional area is rubbish . I have been complaining to Telstra for over 2 years. They have been unable to resolve it, so instead of ringing them now I just plug the cable in, that fixes it, at least long enough to post successfully.

And if you are looking to list monumental blunders Rehctub, the sale of Telstra and the signing of the U.S Strike fighter contracts are economic monumental blunders of unequalled proportion.

You and SM cannot simply portray investment in infrastructure such as the NBN as waste,
without addressing the damage done by the sale of public infrastructure and the issue of communications sovereignty.

Committing to the massive spiralling cost of investing in theoretical aircraft just because they're American has far more ramifications than waste.

Rather than justifying the Gillard Prime Ministership, I am just pointing how bad Govt can really get, by citing just 2 monumental mistakes made by the Howard Gov't. I've got plenty more if it is to be a contest about the number of mistakes.
It is the gravity of the mistakes that concerns me.

Spending taxpayers money on the NBN will never do as much damage as selling the asset in the first place.
Legislation should be passed to ensure that the NBN, (should it be built),
will never be sold to private interests and remain a publicly owned asset.

There's no doubt that the NBN will chnage the way we live and work in Australia. It will drive economic growth and open up opportunities for local businesses to expand and reach new markets. It will also mean that our children will get access to education through new delivery models and that all Australians will have access to health care services without leaving home."Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 2 April 2011 2:15:41 PM

AT WHAT COST?

This is the burning issue here as nobody, not even the government can tell us how much it will cost.

Furthermore, will the NBN make it even easier for much of our 'retail', manufacturing and 'IT' work to be taken off shore?

Just take a look at the recent 'toll roads', Sydney and Brisbane, they cost billions and nobody is using them as they cost to much!

Don't you think there's a lesson to be learned here?

There is little gained out of putting the cart before the horse!

We are simply in no position to take such a huge gamble, esspecially considering we have to borrow the funds to provide the NBN, while, at the same time try to repay labor's massive debts, without selling off one of the few assetts we have left.

I'm sorry, but simply taxing the rich is not the answer.

thinker 2,I hear you loud and clear with regards to Howard's waste as well.

In fact, it is my belief that we should have a panel of 'experts' that can be called upon to assist in critical decisions when needed, deployment of troops is one example, the insulation program is another, who can be called upon to discuss these serious issues when the need arises.

These people can be selected from leading business people, to bankers and alike.

We simply can not keep trusting governments to make huge 'life altering' decisions simply because they have been elected.

Major decisions should be made with the assistance of those who are accountable for their day to day decision making, and governments are not.

Another problem is that we have governments elect on say $400K per year, compared to CEO's on millions per year. Who is most likely to be the most competent.

Dear rehctub,

May I humbly suggest that you go and see the documentary film entitled, "Inside Job," (now showing city-wide). It won an Oscar this year for the best documentary. It's a real eye-opener on what caused the global financial crisis. It may answer your question about the competencies of company Chief Executive Officers - and where their interests really lie.

Lexi said;
and that all Australians will have access to health care services
without leaving home."

Hmmm, at first I thought this was a joke.
Diagnostic services, each house to have x-ray and aucoustic scanners
on line ?
Medicine delivered over the internet ?
ASk your doctor what he thinks of this.

Our esteemed minister for the NBN has demonstrated that he does not
have a clue and no one has done any more than suggested that hospitals
will have on lime x-ray scanners for remote specialists.

Oh dear.

Dear Bazz,

Oh dear, is correct. An imperative point to remember prior to posting is to always know your topic. You obviously have no idea what the electronic delivery of health services via NBN is all about. Therefore may I suggest that you Google "NBN and Telehealth," to have a few things clarified for you.

Lexi,

The single biggest flaw in Labor's argument is that you don't need 100Mb/s to deliver these services.

I have run video teleconferences that run perfect well on 100kb/s and 1Mb/s delivers superb communications. The 12Mb/s minimum proposed with the NBN can deliver multiple high definition channels. This is not required for business or health only gaming.

The rates required for business or health can be delivered for a fraction of the cost of the NBN and Labor knows it.

Dear Lexi, your 'tall poppy' attitude is coming on load and clear.

BTW, are you not aware that CEO's salary packages are generally a percentage of the over all profit of the corporation they run?

Now it only stands to reason that an executive on say $5million per year is a tad more clever and on the ball than a Polly on say $500K.

In any case, my suggestion is for a panel 'TO ASSIST' in the decision making process. Not to take over.

Now I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but i'm also no dill and I have not got a clue how much this NBN will cost me, nor do I think the average joe on the street does.

This is my point.

Now, can you honestly guarantee that if we spend between 45 and 60 billion, that we don't have, that it will be a success.

Furthermore, given that you are fully supportive of the NBN, can you firstly provide the level of 'take up' that is required for this to be a success and, most importantly, what is our exit plan should it fail?

Now I would suggest that if you can't answer all of these questions, then perhaps you should jump ship and join us.

At the end of the day, it is 'we', the 'tax payers' who will ultimately foot the bill and all we want is assurances that we won't have yet another failed scheme on our hands.

Lexi, I suggest you go quiet while the going is good.
You are well in over your depth.
For patient momitoring 1200 bd would be plenty. 4800 bd would be very
satisfactory and 9600 bd would be extravagant.
Even for the patient to have a video link would not really need more
than about a one megabit. However because the patient would have
digital TV it would be cheaper to use a higher rate.
A frame store could be used to reduce the data speed.
Oh well I wonder how many patients would prefer to speak in person to
their doctor. Still doctors could mail the patient and endoscope.
I can just picture the scene, oh dear I couldn't even describe it !

Even the gynecologists could get in on the act. The mind boggles.
The possibilities of eHealth are endless, if you will pardon the pun.

Now that I have the giggles under control;

The eHealth application that has any real possibility is patient data.
We are a long behind Brazil in that field and we should pack someone
off to Sao Paulo to have a look.

Any Doctor anywhere can just pull up any patient and have everything
to hand. Even if the patient is in an ambulance the data is available.
All past x-rays are stored as well as prescriptions and notes.

The NBN will do no more than do what is already done, in that in many
hospitals patients are monitored and a radio link is used to get the
data from the bed to the nurse's station.
A simple matter to stuff that into a modem and send it on its way to
Timbuktoo.

Anyone would think the NBN was going to make all this possible.
It has all been possible for years.
It does not need the NBN, the medical people are just not interested.
They want to be able to see & smell the patient and put hands on.

It is just that it is going to cost us $B50 +, to get it there in
100 usecs instead of 1 msec. Oh my gord, what have they wrort ?

In all this NBN debate, no one seems to talk about data limits or allowances and cost, just speed. The speed means Jack shite to me, to an extent. I already have cable at 1000kb/s which is more than enough. What I want to know is how much can I have in data bits? 10 gig, 100 gig, a terabyte, what, at what cost? It's no use downloading at the speed of light if I get cut off after 10 seconds coz I've gone over my limit. What's my limit and for how much on the NBN? That to me is more important!

The biggest thing that stifles Australia's internet is data usage, not the speed. The duopoly has insured we pay through the nose so far. Will the NBN change that? Not from what I've been reading and not from what comrade Conroy has been preaching about his NBF (National Broadband Filter) coz that's what it really is!

All this bulldust about health and crap is all smoke. It's been possible for years, it's the data limits and cost that put it out of reach not the speed. People should be made aware that this NBF is nothing more than a means for the Fabians at the end of the red phone to sensor what you do at the speed a transistors gate changes polarity! They know that knowledge gives us power over them and they want to curb that. Can't have people that know how to pronounce Awstyraliya properly, they might vote for the other side! Or worse still, get out the old fashion tar and feathers, pitch forks and torches! After all most of us are just a bunch of extremest deniers ready for burning at the up and coming Awstyraliyan inquisition.

To quote Alan Kohler business editor:

"The failure, revealed yesterday, to get someone to build the thing within budget is huge, a remarkably significant setback for the NBN.

The NBN called for tenders 12 months ago for the $12 billion contract to build the main part of the fibre network. There were 45 bidders at the first stage and this was narrowed down to 14 firms that proceeded to the request for proposals (RFP) stage. Over the past six months, those 14 have been through four rounds of pricing negotiations with the NBN team, and yesterday the whole thing just fell over.

The NBN press release said it has "indefinitely suspended its network construction tender after construction companies were unable to provide acceptable terms and prices …" It added: "The NBN Co is confident it can secure better value for money by going a different route."

Incredible. It seems completely incompetent on the part of the NBN that this should happen. And what's the different route? I asked Communications Minister Stephen Conroy yesterday, and if he knew, he wasn't saying. He was full of flim-flam on the subject. I don't think there is a different route. I suspect yesterday's press release was an attempt at a door slam in the negotiation, trying to get someone to break ranks, which seems to have happened, according to John Durie in this morning's Australian. He says the NBN Co is now talking to a Leighton-Siemens joint venture about taking it over.

I put to Conroy that the construction budget must be too low. He said it is what it is, or words that effect, and said he was confident it would still be built on time and on budget. Yeah right, or words to that effect."

The following website might explain a few things:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/02/14/actually-were-not-paying-more-less

"Actually, We're Not Paying More For Less," by Colin Jacobs.

Interesting reading.

Heres a link about the uptake of the NBN super fast internet roll out in Tasmania SM

http://www.zdnet.com.au/100mbps-nbn-uptake-surprising-hackett-339308997.htm?omnRef=http%3A%2F%

Heres a link about the uptake of the NBN super fast internet roll out in Tasmania SM

Yes, Tasmania, about on fith the size of QLD.

Hardley what I would call a fair comparison hey!

Lexi,

Another political puff piece, devoid of real information. Really you could do better.

Instead of 24 times the cost, we are now looking at 30 times the cost, 3 years later. This is looking like another fantasy like the Epping rail line that was promised many times over 16 years by labor.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Did you really read the link I provided? It clarifies quite a few things. However, I sense that it's not a question of "my doing better," it's a question of your inability to accept anything that differs from your party line. That clearly points to a political career.

Lexi. the link you provided was not really relevant to the discussion
we were having here.
Re Korea, what you may not be aware of is that Korea is a gamers
paradise. It is really a big industry and vocation there.

However I do not think that is a factor that we should be considering here.
My contention is that everything that we want to do with the NBN
could have been done by getting fibre into every town and then adsl+2
to every premises in those towns.
For the nearby areas Wimax could serve up to 70 to 100km radius area.
Outside that satellite is about the only alternative.

Steven Conway showed his total ignorance on the subject when he tried
to poo hoo a Wimax type solution when he said the further the range
the slower the data speed.
He is just trying to blind side the public by regurgitating phrases
he has picked up from others.

The only medical application I can see that would need 100Mbit data
rates would be operating theatre remote operations, where feedback
from movements of instruments would need to be fed back to the remote
surgeon. That could be catered for if any surgeon was game enough to
do it, by running fibre to that hospital from the local exchange.

However that is a diversion, we need much more urgently a refurbishment
of the railway system. We have only a few years to get started on the
triplication and other improvements to the freight network.
Then we can seriously start to get freight off the roads and onto rail.

Dear Bazz,

As I've stated on many occassions - I don't pretend to have all the answers however, I don't believe in condemning something prior to giving it a go. Everything costs these days - but if it's something that's worth doing - it should be given a chance. From what I gather the NBN will help a lot of people. The following website lists who,
and possibly how:

http://nationalbroadbandnetwork.net.au/2010/12/telehealth-trials-for-nbn-sites-armidale-and-kiama/

The previous link that I gave wasn't only about Korea - you should have finished reading it in its entirety. Anyway, I'm done arguing on this subject. We'll have to simply agree to disagree on this one
Bazz.

Lexi;
I just read that link. There is nothing there that was not covered in my previous comments.
Patient monitoring is a low data rate function, it is done in less than
3khz bandwidth.

Lexi,

What do either of those pieces clarify? What is the % take up in Tasmania, what % take the 100Mb/s option. None of that is here. More than we expected is what? Given that the NBN's viability is wafer thin and based on a 70% or greater take up of internet services, thi

It is blindingly clear that is that you have no idea of what is required to provide these medical services that labor trumpets.

100kb/s is sufficient for a video teleconference with good sound and basic quality video, 1Mb/s gives superb quality, and 8Mb/s can stream HD video both directions, so every thing that is in the telehealth link is possible now with ASDL or in the bush with upgraded wireless.

The NBN at a total cost to the tax payer of more than $50bn or $10 000 per house hold is not something you "give a chance" on a whim.

The people that have to pay it off are the internet users of the future, i.e. this is a bill we hand to our kids.

Dear Bazz and Shadow Minister,

In the 19th Century people were happy to get around in a horse and cart and then railways were introduced and people moved a lot faster.
It connected towns. It moved goods and trade. Of course people had to pay for it. And, then we had aeroplanes and things moved faster still and cost more. Of course, some people would still be happy with a horse and cart today. Does that explain the development of NBN? If you're happy with two cans and a piece of string - you don't need a
telephone. If you're happy with a pigeon delivering mail, you don't
need Broadband. It's all relative to the function and the needs of the industry, the services, education, and in your case - politics.

Sigh

Lexi,

10yrs ago, a standard low definition TV channel required 12Mb/s to be transmitted, with advanced compression techniques such as Mpeg, one only requires about 250kb/s or about 1/50th, and advanced systems are reducing it further.

99% of users would not exceed 1Mb/s except for downloads. Having 100Mb/s is like giving everyone a Mac truck to drive to work, or converting the suburban streets to dual lane highways. There is massive infrastructure that is only going to be used by a tiny fraction of the population.

Perhaps you could give me one thing that you need more than 12Mb/s for?