The average NSW family will suffer the excessive rises of Electricity of aprox $300 p/a and now Carbon Taxes of $300 p/a. These are the Greens agenda leading the average working family to ruin.

Philo a reality exists that will bring pain to you.
It is this Carbon reduction , climate control, stopping the pollution, is a mainstream view.
Held despite the rhetoric many, greens Labor and Conservatives.
Not a plot not a war on tax payers, introduced to stop killing our planet.

Belly,

In your other post you claimed that this was introduced because of a hung parliament to keep the greens happy.

While I personally believe that in order to reduce the effect on the world, a price of carbon is eventually required, I know that Australia going it alone with 1.5% of the world's emissions will make zero difference and simply punish the people of Australia.

None of the biggest polluters have done anything, and the ETS in Europe is only on a small portion of their emissions.

To Shadow Minister

""I know that Australia going it alone with 1.5% of the world's emissions will make zero difference and simply punish the people of Australia.""

Australia emits more carbon for its population than anyone.
Get it lower then we can encourage others.
Why would any country listen to wasteful Australia as it is now.

When will you people do a bit of reading?

It doesn't take too much to be able to see what a pill of bull the whole global warming thing is.

Who would know why Gillard would do anything? I very much doubt she does. With her it's a matter of what feels good today. All we know is that anyone who gets between her & her ambition will be squashed if she can manage it. That include you Belly. If you expect anything else you are out of luck.

She has sold us out, & even had the hide to reckon she wasn't lying before the election.

Hasbeen, now look bloke ease it up ok.
You constantly infer those with opinions that are not yours should do a bit of reading or such.
Can you understand just maybe I have read more than you?
And that just maybe you are quite wrong?
Tell me who made you all wise.
And why is it, tell me? your threads get so few posts if you know every thing?
The longest journey Shadow Minister starts with one step, if we lead others will follow.
One day others who do not take that step may be fronted with trade embargo's, do you want it to be us.
Each of us, yep every one in about my age group should look at todays environment, compare it to the one of our childhood.
We have destroyed and dirtied a great deal of our country, why would it be we have not done the same in the short industrial age to our air.

Undidly and Belly,

Having spent a significant time working overseas in various countries, I can sum up how much air time Australia gets outside of natural disasters:

Zip
Zero
Nada
Blow all.

Everyone is waiting to see what the US, Japan, India and China do, and what tiny Australia does is inconsequential. If Australia puts a price on carbon now, when it comes to world wide negotiation, its hand will have been played, and Australia can only contribute by offering more.

The other issue is that if Australia taxes carbon and reduces consumption, it will lower carbon prices world wide and nearly all the savings will be taken up by others.

What I would support is a negotiated mechanism that is ready for implementation, that can be used as a bargaining point for world wide negotiations.

Going it alone while helping the wealthy greens feel smug, hurts mainly working class Australians and Australian business, while doing very little for the world.

Carbon pollution has become an obsession whose cause has been totally blamed upon humans. Next we will have taxes on the number of persons living in a home, the number of pets we keep and on farmers on the number of animals they run, or the fields they mow, the cars and machinery we use. All human activity produces carbon into the atmosphere, so that is why we need carbon absorbers i.e. Trees that love carbon. Come up with a policy to turn the deserts into forests anstead of taxing the population. You would think the Greens would have a greening policy for the deserts.

I Philo believe we should grow more trees, plant,for a while three for each we cut down.
You are aware that this is a world wide part of cutting our carbon footprint already?
However we need to understand while we will continue to use this vital part of carbon reduction, while the worlds emitters will continue to fund it, trees do not grow in the ground you want turned into Forrest's.
If we look to greens for advice on any thing we may be in worse trouble, latest output from the mad house is tax our cars,imprison us,kill the country life.
Only thing I am less interested in is SM,s impersonation of the child of Christopher Pyne and Julie Bishop.

Any action on carbon dioxide in whatever way is pointless until the
IPCC reruns its computer models using the now available realistic data
on the amount of fossil fuels available for burning.

The Global Energy Systems Group at Uppsala University have produced the
data and until the IPCC reports on what they believe would be the
temperature rise for those new figures, what is the point of even discussing AGW ?

It way well mean that AGW is a non event or it may not make much
difference.
The IPCC have not done anything about the new data as far as I can see
which might mean they do not want to know.

Until we know the results everyone is scrambling in the dark.

Of course our power costs are going up, but it is not because of carbon taxes which haven't come into being yet. It is because we are living under government legislation that requires the electricity grid system to give priority to "renewable/sustainable energy' such as solar and wind power. Both are perceived as being "green". These sources of energy may be green but the step of transforming their energy to electricity using wind farms and solar panels etc most certainly is not "green".
Apart from substantial emissions and toxic waste produced in manufacturing and setting up the plant, both these sources are extremely weak and intermittent being available only about 30% of the time when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing at an appropriate velocity. This makes it very difficult for the power grid operators to respond to power demand.
Consequently the operators have been forced to establish the same generating capacity using fast-response gas-powered turbines to stabilize the grid. Hydro-power would be better for this purpose but Australia doesn't have the water resources to contemplate this method.
The huge cost of setting up the carbon dioxide emitting gas turbine generators is a direct result of the legislation to give priority to wind and solar power generation. For Australia there is essentially no carbon or cost benefit by opting for wind and solar sources for power.

We have witness during the lifetime of many contributors to this and similar sites, the mass extension of deserts on most planets, by the simple operation of gutting trees down
There have been millions of acres of farmland becoming eroded and useless because of us practising imprudent agriculture practices, mainly because of greed.
We have seen our wonderful tropical forests destroy, turning the country side into a wasteland.
We have destroyed the forests in Europe with acid rain, caused by polluting manufacture practices.
We have seen the beautiful hills and dales in England and Wales destroyed, along with the village and people with the production and use of coal. A practice I am sure is responsible for more deaths in the last two or three centuries than anything else.
If we have managed to do the above, why is it hard to believe the release of carbon into the atmosphere be any different.
Yes the climate is always changing, as I believe most things on this planet does. What is different is the speed climate change is occurring.
As we are not clairvoyant, only time well prove who is right
Our descendants will not thank us if we do nothing and climate change does occur.
If we are wrong, the removal of fossil fuels will make the environment a cleaner and nicer place to live in

I have to agree with Shadow Minister, when Australian pollies say we
have to show the way to others by adopting CO2 measures first I have
to ask if it is just Kevin Rudd rhetoric ?

I was in the UK during one election and I could not find out the result
for weeks until a reference to our PM making a statement on something
in a little three inch paragraph.
The only time we get a mention is if whole towns are wiped out by fire
or drowned in flood.

So can we have a rule here that no one mentions giving an example to
the rest of the world ever again ?

Governments may not be deliberately trying to bankrupt the avearge family, but their new taxes will certainly reduce their standard of living. A standard of living affects the average family much more than all the coal fired power stations in remote areas. I was a sales representative in Sydney for 22 years and the fumes from car exhausts did more damage to my health than all the coal fired power stations in Lithgow and the Central coast that I visited each month during those tears.

Philo, that maybe why cars over the years have been forced to lower their emissions. I believe without the climate change problems, car using gasoline will become a thing that belongs in the last century.

Lets see what the proposals are before mouthing off at all the impositions that it is going to cause.
NSW hit by excessive govt; taxes on power and carbon. Who ever wrote that is a donk.

Shadow Minister:>> While I personally believe that in order to reduce the effect on the world, a price of carbon is eventually required,
None of the biggest polluters have done anything, and the ETS in Europe is only on a small portion of their emissions.<<

SM, your first comment surprises me, that you see CO2 as an environmental issue takes you from credible to incredible, no offense.

Why have the green movements emphasis swung from the actual polluters to the end users? Why is it as you quite correctly report "that none of the biggest European polluters have done anything", the reason is that now they do not have to get their acts together, the new environmental movement will make the plebs pay, not the money. This green movement went from the green of the forest to the green of the American dollar bill. After the brokerage houses and the banks stick their greedy claws in how much will end up helping the environment....bugger all they replied sir.

579:>> Lets see what the proposals are before mouthing off at all the impositions that it is going to cause.
NSW hit by excessive govt; taxes on power and carbon. Who ever wrote that is a donk.<<

579 the problem is we don't want to see any more. We saw the pink batts, we saw the BER, we saw Solar, We saw Petrol Watch, we saw Aboriginal housing, or didn't see any which is more to the point, we saw a $20 BILLION SURPLUS shrink to a $50 BILLION DEFICIT in three years....I don't want to see any more.

And given you mentioned State Labor, just last year we saw them spend $600 Million thus far and rising on a cancelled tram track project that did not see a sod of dirt turned, and how much of the BER money went in internal NSW government admin charges given our kids got less than half what the self administered Catholic schools got for their million. Then suddenly Rosenthal has money, two months before he was broke….criminals, nothing less and certainly nothing more.

How is that for "mouthing off" puppet 579. Labor head banger are we. Marrickville branch?

We already pay at a state level for Electricity which should be inclusive of electricity diversification or climate change future concepts. After all, the energy providers will be required to tow the line on any environment related legislation passed in the future. We are paying these companies and Government as we speak.

We already pay our taxes which should include any innovative concepts relative to effectively dealing with climate change for the future.

Where did all of the GST capital go, that we are still paying years later by the way?

No more taxes implemented; unless a full and detailed "guarantee'd" Act or Legislation has been passed, that demonstrates to Taxpayers where exactly these proposed Electricity and Carbon taxes are going over the next couple of years

Floginfloin Has only got one eye and can't see out the other. You say money spent to keep the economy going is a waste. You would rather have the unemployment instead. That's ok as long as it doesn,t involve you i suppose. An old English sheep dog has got better sight than that. You are a tony supporter. why.

a597:>> An old English sheep dog has got better sight than that. You are a tony supporter. why.<<

a597, regarding your observation, you would be astounded at my grass roots Labor pedigree, but acolyte a597 the Fabianesque intellectuals that took seed in the eighties and now plot the direction of the Labor Party do not inspire me. Bottom line is that they are WEAK leaders because they have succumb to power and privilege, this un representative swill is so disconnected from their core electorate they have had to skim the minority parties for support, lackeys to Brown, Windsor and that grotesque cartoon of a man Okseshott.

Personally I do not think that lawyers with no talent other than a slight of hand, thick hide, and degree have any place in the labour movement. During her time in opposition I found Lawyer Gillard fact facing, in tune, and human. In power I found she had become an evasive tuned out manipulating lawyer, an understudy to Kev. One to whom facts are no longer solid objects. Her cabinet, like Kev’s is window dressing and if they don’t bloody listen to the cabinet what chance the back bench and finally of critical importance what chance the rank and file at branch level.

I have read a smattering of your post a597 and my observation is that you are an acolyte, you know not what you follow, and you just follow and regurgitate denials to combat facts. If you are a LABOR devotee your party will not find direction until it goes back to the people, not vocal minorities and rebellious teen agers. Get out of the inner cities and represent suburbia would be my comment to Modern Labor.

How can u say weak leader. This Julia is a pit bull, with twice the teeth. No one knows what the taxes consist of. IT is all in your head.
Julia is progressive and on a much needed problem.
Tax the polluter, what is wrong with that. It does not reflect the title to this thread, that is what is wrong with it. The word excessive! who knows what that means. I can not figure out if you are worried about your own skin ,or the skin of the polluters. You can't be blamed for items that are for every day living, only luxuries.

579,
You may not live in NSW but every household faces an increase of an average of $300 in Electricity p/a. Also it is proposed that a carbon tax will impact each household by about $300 p/a. To introduce a Green tax on the polluters will also mean that the costs are passed on to end users - the housholders.

Instead of a Carbon tax introduce incentives to polluters to utelise the carbon to grow algae to produce biofuels. This ia a win win result for both polluters and renewable energy for users.

Again, the whole discussion us redundant until IPCC reruns its
computer models against the new fossil fuel availability data.

There is significantly less than the amounts they used in their three
projections.
It is now a matter of restarting from square one.
Perhaps the projection using the new figures will say forget it no
problem or the rise would be marginal.

Here it is, the link to the published paper is in blue a few paragraphs down the page.

http://aleklett.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/validity-of-the-fossil-fuel-production-outlooks-in-the-ipcc-emission-scenarios/

I had ment to mention that I got some feedback from another place
where I mentioned the Uppsala paper. It seems that many people are so
hooked on global warming being real that they just cannot accept that
they might actually have been wrong all this time.
It would be humorous if it was not costing $billions and eventually
$trillions.
Just to be clear I am a skeptic but I could be wrong, maybe global
warming is happening, I just think when you get people like
Professor Carter a paleoclimate specialist at Cook University
saying that the climate is actually cooling a little if anything and
he then gets attacked verbally it seems some people have perhaps had
their religious beliefs attacked.
It does look similar to Islamic, Catholic and Protestant intolerance.

So much so that they do not want to read the Uppsala paper.
There is a real blockage of mind on this matter.
Skeptism is really out the window to some people.

I think this phenomena is more worrying than whether AGW is real or not.

The household should use 14 kwh / day. And that is generous. I can not even make ten.
What is going to happen to make power rise by $300 / yr
The kw rate here is .22 cents.
Lifestyle junkies pay 5 or 6 hundred $/ qtr, but that is their choice.
With one tv, two fridges, one deep freez. uses 9.5 kwh/day

Why has Kristine Kaneally promised subsidies to poor families of $250 p/a, if the rise is no where near that?

good point philo
clearly she would have had a brief from julia
so tonies numbers arnt far off the mark

its interestingly revealing in itself that no numbers are released
i would have thought inform,ed debate would begin with the raw numbers

as for the us leading the world
[see the world is in a mess..
because their greens did it all there allready
aspain briton italy..[all the pigs done it]
europe ben trading carbon for years[and it failed badly
the bnig poluters got bigger rights to polute than they neded [and flooded the market..[thebn there is the issue of theft of the right to polute indulegencies

did you hear julia yesterday telling how big business loves the idea of paying a polution tax[or rather getting a handout of carbon credits]..

deal's will be deals
the labourot fruit dont fall far
from the last time it tried to become a tree

we are following not leading
all this chest beating and the turncoat doing his teason
and tonies favorite perversion julia who gave rupert his debrief on his birthday..

after visiting the holy of holies on wall street..
before drinking a free beer with her mates for the media
heck it aint half bleeding obvios its all just a scam..for the money changers man

the numbers dont lie
but with modeling its as simple
as running the wrong numbers

these numbers for the tax cows
these numbers for the money men
[running two sets of books]

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11732

so many lies
recall..the oxone hole is melting?
y2k..birdflue...aids..the bailouts

$967 / yr is normal for power. A rise of 30% is needed to rise by $ 300
.22 c/ kwh would have to be, 28.6 c/ kwh. Just as well i have solar.
Last quarter cost .25 c/day for power and service fee.

It has come, election day, I may well be talking to my self in this thread, like shouting in to an empty drum.
But it is a historic day.
I have been all over the place on this this election,but not voting Labor.
Until a few minutes ago.
I conned myself thought about past glories and said this seat will go in any case it will not hurt to vote Labor.
But it would.
It would hurt me.
This one and a half terms too long government made fun of me, you, honesty loyalty it squandered the right to be Labor.
And understanding that today is not about federal politics,not about climate change it is about fraud, self interested politicians it is about the bad side of factionalism.
It is about removing the trash, then it will be about hard work and rebuilding.
Today a greens candidate who wants to continue racist attacks against Israel stands to be elected.
Please NSW we are better than that, punish Labor but consider your vote.

Belly, you obviously take your loyalty and duty of the ballot box seriously.
That is why you are on the horns of a dilemma.

The ultimate duty of a voter is to vote for what benefits himself best.
That way, the majority are best suited.
Voting for what suits someone else distorts the ballot result.

Good luck.

Bazz it is true, I thought very much before voting.
Every one of us should.
I am condemned by some for voting so my vote never went at any stage to Labor or the greens.
But in return condemn those who thought the ALP deserved another chance.
Give you a hint a bloke called Haddon, fierce fighter of corruption stuck out in the upper house and we have a great independent running here unlikely to be for either side unless locals profit.
Not feeling guilt just that today I did my best for my party,helped remove them.

Juliar did Barry a huge favour with the carbon tax. The increased cost of living may well get the coalition across the line in both houses.

You and I are very different SM we always will be.
But I will refrain to the best of my ability from crossing swords needlessly.
NSW stand alone,oh yes SA is going conservative next time,unless almost immediate leadership change comes.
Queensland is no easy even if its election took place now, while polls support ALP.
NSW as I have said won two elections too many.
Carr was the last leader with ANY TALENT.
If Morris had not forced his team on to us we may have got a leader,it was too late half way in to the last post Carr term.
We won the last election by default.
We lost tonights because we became unfit to be visitors in NSW Parliament.
Gillard, my side hates me saying it,is useless she did oppose ETS is intent only on power, not the traditions of my party.
But to the contrary today,some Labor voters who did not want to voted ALP because many are more than displeased with Tony Abbott.
I however value Labor too much to forget no rebuilding is possible without destruction.
In time,I will be judged but Abbott and Gillard are propping each other up, Abbott is, in my view so bad he alone keeps Gillard afloat.
I will be watching these points of interest all night vote by vote upper house how many greens votes and what the minority two party preferred vote is

Heard an interview with Tim Flannery today.
He says that the if the world does what the government intends the
temperature reduction will be extremely small in up to 1000 years time.

In other words the return on our investment in CO2 reduction will be
effectively zero in 1000 years time.

Tim it would appear is looking for far bigger cuts and far bigger expenditure.
As are the greens.
A very bad idea.
The longest journey starts with one step.
The greens stopped that first step in the last Parliament, with Gillards help.
Australian and the world should take that first step, BUT I WARN the greens and public perceptions of their involvement may yet kill climate change action here.
Today marks the low point in ALP for this state.
If Gillard survives Federal Labor will face such a day.
If so, after so much promise and so much failure it will take time to get back.
Yet it may never happen Labor has better leaders and while Abbott stands we can win.

I am always transfixed on election night any election.
No surprise in the result, no not even in the hunter.
I worked very hard to get one of the losses in Parliament last time.
And within a month knew it was a waste.
I think it is clear ALP voters drove this result, always thought they would.
The out come is good for the party and the state.
I understand we will suffer but Labor gave Barry his mandate and its own members.
Of promise, sorry to those I offend GREENS are likely to have failed.
A 1.5% rise is nothing in this landslide clearly NSW did not hide its intention and the decline of greens has started move over Democrats.
ALP?get over it but never for get you drove us the party's back bone to this night, if we ever forget we will see this night once too often and a new party born.

I am not one of those who woke in NSW in shock.
My words have told of this for 2 years, my heart for 5 years.
NSW Labor was a basket case.
Some will remind us of internal fighting, I will remind them of fraud self interest claimed ownership of my party.
Some will very wrongly,talk of drifting away from Labor values, I will remind them we drifted away from all values.
Some will tell of the end of federal government,I will say just maybe this stick on our backs may turn the plodding beast.
Those outside my state know this.
As an X ,nothing more x than an x,trade union official, I saw former RTA people win contracts for? the RTA, pay far less than award, or not pay at all, and letters to Minister after minister came back without interest signed by him but written by the very people I complained about.
small event? no a sign of the whole,ministers had time to make fools of them selves but not to look at issues in their own back yard,all? no but most Ministers had more time for fund raising and shonky deals than working.

NSW Labour were marginally more functional than Federal Labour. Thankfully people have woken up. There is a carbon tax lie but no doubt the ones waiting to knife Gillard will be working out an excuse as to why they won't introduce it.

runner at about this time I once would have been as angry as an ant after its nest was kicked.
Fully intend to IF I can only stop ROFL!