"FOR years, Communications Minister Stephen Conroy has been citing South Korea to justify his National Broadband Network.

A report this week by The Economist's Economic Intelligence Unit ranked Conroy's NBN plan poorly against top-ranked South Korea, Conroy claimed that comparing Australia with South Korea was like comparing "apples with oranges".

This typifies that strategy that Conroy has consistently employed to defend his NBN: when comparisons (no matter how misleading) help your case, use them -- but when they don't, dump on them and anyone making those comparisons. Such hypocrisy is truly galling. This time around, Conroy is actually right on one thing: it is indeed an "apples and oranges" comparison. But that's never stopped him comparing Australian and South Korea before."

With the estimated costs continually ramping up, and the time table stretching out, it looks as though this will define Labor even more than the BER waste.

Not because I am biased, not because it is ALP policy.
Not because Shadow Minister says this.
Not because I ever use the net for gaming or ever will.
I want the NBN.
This mornings quoted polls,show strange only selective quotes will be posted here, others want it too, and they want the crisis tax
My old copper phone lines can not give half the best speeds we have now.
After rain we can not use our phone for at least a day.
Not enough of us live here in this hilly area to ever see NBN and radio is only on one server here.
I do not want it for gaming, have a life with out wasting it,but I support the NBN.

my old copper line
that I PAID FOR
stands unsused..presently

soon it shall be legally stolen..!
im left with this ABSURD moblie-modum

when the copper/line
could be hooked in ..PERMANTLY to my server

they sold off spectrum
now they shall be giving away
the copper line ..it cost the earth ..to put in

selling that
..i and others paid for
so the shareholder's.. who stole tell-icom..[tell-stra]
can get cents in the dolar dividend

the media got their high def
to keep control of the spectrum

but all i want is the copper line
UNRESTRICTED..into my home ..so i can watch basic tv

lets expand this topic to the scam...enabled by govt collusions
of digetal divide..

i cant recieve digetal ...in these suburban hills

but even that was stolen
add-in ..that my smokes have doubled
and the latest is on that ..that it looks like
i been scammed ..simply trying to buy toobacco

its time to say enough

LEAVE THE LINES IN THE GROUND
BACKWAY ..FROM ..MY COPPER PIPELINE TO THE WORLD

its bad enough you took my silver/coins
and gave me nickle/coin

you took my copper/coins
but now leave OUR copper-lines in the ground
and simply hook THEM..into a server ..who dosnt charge me
15 bucks per gig
or limit my downloads ..to QUATER a gig per month

i cant even..watch basic tv ..on the web
[and why shoulf all tv ..become pay tv?]

rot in hell..
you govt/member's ..colluding treason
as well as theft..!

to hell with the sharholder
serve the CON-sunmers ..for a change

and get rid of bankfees
get rid of gst

bring back DEATH-DUTIES
bring in transaction-tax

now

its time ..we all ..walked like egyptions

Good for you Belly, you don't mind $47bn being squandered, as long as you get what you want.

Apparently your views are not so shared.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/backlash-looms-over-nbn-rollout/story-e6frgaif-1226005390341

"A survey by The Australian of 12 councils near NBN test sites found the majority reporting a mixture of apathy, scepticism and hostility towards the NBN among residents.

Mayors said their constituents either did not want the scheme or thought the money could be better spent elsewhere. All but one thought the installation of overhead cables, 31,000km across the country, would spark an outcry.

Some of the strongest opposition was reported by councils in northeast NSW, in and around the electorates of independent federal MPs Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott, who have argued vigorously in favour of the NBN."

And given Labor's plummeting popularity:

"The latest Herald/Nielsen poll shows the Coalition leading Labor on a two-party preferred basis by 54 per cent to 46 per cent, a swing of 4 per cent since the August election."

This is going to be an election winning issue for the coalition as the can of worms slowly opens.

This is not just for the people, this is for infastructure. This will allow the country to spread out instead of grouping around a couple of city,s. Polls are only good if they favour your biased opinion.
The election being split 50/50 puts polls out of contention. Julia said all promises are off after the hung parliament result.
Our dear SM must have disrupted sleep worrying about whats two word Tony is going to say next.

a597:>> This is not just for the people, this is for infastructure.<<

Infrastructure that will cost twice the market rate is the primary issue, not whether it is the best solution to our needs, as it is apparent it is not. I remind you of $800 three bedroom house insulation jobs that all cost $1500 (the maximum subsidy) until the subsidy fell to $1200, and then all the $800 jobs cost $1200. Or the $120 per square building costs that we paid $350 per square for in the BER rip off.

a597:>> This will allow the country to spread out instead of grouping around a couple of cities.

Tell me puppet a597, given that the majority of coastal land quite rightly is tied up as national park or green zones where we will we build these new cities? In the Eastern states you only have the other side of the Great Dividing Range as an option, and the problem is as it has always been the management of water that has hindered expansion.

Neither side of politics has a vision beyond the next election; they are bereft of talent and commitment to Australia. But one side has a track record of leaving a deficit when they get turfed out and the other a surplus. So no talent on either side but one is fiscally able and the other traditionally fiscally disabled. Just to be clear, your Labor mob could not manage a chook raffle in the local pub, the other mob can.

Belly, you have legitimate concerns about the quality of your line, but note that you live in the country and your problem is specific to remote areas: I support you getting a proper decent and fast line out there, and if you want to call it "NBN" and use my tax-money for it you may even do so, but please leave the city/suburb-people alone, who already have great, fast and reliable connections on their existing copper.

OUG so you pay tax's? your old copper wire rots in the ground some has been there longer than you and I have been alive.
I disagree, may I? with the idea we are squandering any thing.
Are my views to be discounted just because they are not yours.
Do we understand the full gains of the NBN?

All I will say in this thread is that despite my greatest expectations that the Labor party (and to a lesser extent, the Liberal Party) fail to do a decent job and end up making us lose billions down the toilet while we fall behind the rest of the civilized world in terms of technology or management, STILL they surprise me by how much worse it actually gets every year, and the limits of human stupidity are taken lower.

We really DO need to do something about this- if we're paying multiples of the price for a product of only a fraction of the quality of those we are comparing to, our country is going to go downhill very fast.

We are so far behind most of the civilized world that we really ARE going to be living up to the stereotype the rest of the world used to wrongly pin on us, as a nation of backwards khaki-clad chumps very soon.
Because if we are willing to pay the insanely high rates we are for effectively LOSING progress, who's going to tell those abroad they're wrong?

Sonofgloin What you wrote doesn't make anything at all. The insulation batts are going through court now, there will always be ripoff members of our community.
The great divide is not the end of AU. Your concerns of no water this side of the divide is not quite right. Your argument does not hold water. The NBN will be the greatest piece of infastructure since the snowy mountains power supply.
If you have problems with the costings of the NBN tell someone who cares. Maybe you can do some costings and forward them to the prime minister.

Shadow Minister wrote 13 February 2011 5:45:18 PM:

>... ranked Conroy's NBN plan poorly against top-ranked South Korea ...

The NBN could be made more cost effective with more wireless.

The report ‘Full speed ahead: The government broadband index Q1 2011' is at: http://www.eiu.com/public/topical_report.aspx?campaignid=broadband2011

The report criticises the Australian government for "... spending a colossal 7.58% of annual government budget revenues on its National Broadband Network. In South Korea, by comparison, the government is spending less than 1% of annual budget revenues to realise its broadband goals, achieving targets by encouraging the private sector to invest in the country's broadband future. ...". The report costs US$2,950 so I just read the summary.

It appears that the EIU's researchers developed an index to rank national broadband schemes on speed, coverage and rate of rollout. More controversially they also include in the index the "... most appropriate regulations for realising targets and fostering a competitive broadband market". This makes the assumption that a market is possible and appropriate.

On these measures Australia ranks 9th out of 16 countries, just under Denmark and above New Zealand and the USA. South Korea ranks top and Greece bottom.

Any deployment of broadband across Australia which attempts to achieve equity will be difficult and expensive. Australia has large cities where deployment is easy and then sparely populated areas where there is no technology which can provide cost effective deployment. If everyone in Australia was prepared to move to Sydney, then broadband could be provided at comparable speeds and costs to countries like Singapore. ;-)

The cost of the NBN (about $43B over 8 years) should be seen in perspective with other public expenditure. As an example Australian public expenditure on education each year is 4.5% of GDP (from "Education in Australia", OECD, 2008), or about $56B (based on the OECD States Extract estimate of Australian GDP of $1,253,121.0 for 2009). If the NBN achieved a 10% saving in the cost of education, this would pay for the entire capital cost of the network over eight years.

ps: My draft NBN parliamentary submission is at: http://blog.tomw.net.au/2011/02/broadband-for-broad-land-envrionment.html

belly
..not intrested in the..'gains of the nbn'
the copper in-front of my home
is only as old as my home..[-20 years]

my point ..i dont use my copper
because of the connection fee
just under 40 dollars ..each quater

currently i pay on mobile
50 dollars year with dodo
they have a trickle feed..[they are as slow as treakle]
but with text..[which is all i do]..its just fine

its too slow to watch you tube
but i used 3 mobile for that..

i tried to get vodaphone's deal
who has taken over 3

..via woolworths 99 dollars
for the modum plus 15 gig download

thats the sort of prices ,..i am prepared to pay
regardless if its copper ..or glass fibre

my point being i refuse to pay these absurd prices
to maintain a copper connection..

*that now is being ripped out

im angry about this issue specificlly

3 was great...the 10 gig i used up in 3 months...
but they kept me connected ..for the contracted year

if it was slow..
BUT it was still fast enough to watch you tube
which the dumb dodo connection cant handle

we are being screwed big time

the dodo etc is deliberatly slowed down
it could easilly give the same as 3 gave..
but wants to do other deals

wanted a credit card..
[and i never owned one of them ..on principle]

had the vodaphone deal ..worked out
i would be doing the 99 dollar conection
but it didnt..mainly because of 3 errors

then the regestration failing..
in the end it failed to regester me
it came up as errors...

i dont need to be stuffed arround
by idiots ripping me off or wanting to get at a credit card..

thus am content to blog about the prikkkkks
..till the dodo service runs out

i was with telstra for 35 years
payed a ssssshitload of connection/line/maintainance
or whatever the hell the buzz word is...

im over it..i own the copper line..
paid in full...never seen any maintanance on it

payed my fees ..now only want my service

tomw I would like to see more of you here.
I feel some threads are not for open debate.
But to put a point of view while rebutting all others.
A selected story is often used and supportive ones ignored.
We will get our NBN and I would like to be around five years after to hear those saying it is useless trying to forget their words.

Dear Belly,

I don't believe that anyone thinks that the NBN will be useless.
The question is, whether that will be for good uses, or for bad uses.

One obvious good use is that you will get a decent phone and interenet connection despite living in the bush, which you should. The question remains, why should city-people, 91% of Australians, be punished for it as well.

As I see it, the NBN will only accelerate the electronic-gadget madness: not only the self-imposed addiction, but demands to use the available technology will be imposed by others.

Some banks, for example, already prevent me from opening an account with them because I have no mobile phone and many employers already demand that their employees have one of those harmful monsters attached to their wasteline at all times. Think what they will expect once they know a super-fast network is available at your home... the first shot is SURVEILENCE. It will become standard for your boss to demand that you install monitoring cameras in every room of your home. If you are tired at work, they can make sure you have lights-out at 9pm; If you want a raise, they will check what food you consume for supper; If you claim sick, they will check that you are in bed all this time. If you day-dream, they will investigate your love-life...

What's next? the government of course. They will want to ensure that you raise your children well (by their standards), that you are not cheating Centerlink, that you obeserve all their laws, that you do not overeat, that you do not speak against them: A hole in the fence invites the burgler in, and such a capacity for surveilence is something no government be able to refuse - the ultimate wet dream of every socialist beaurocrat!

More and more vendors of household goods will demand that their products are connected to your network for remote-operation, "safety" and "for the warranty" (eg. for finding about your habits so they can promote new products). No connection - the product will refuse to work.

(continued...)

(...continued)

Schools will demand that your children do their homework on the computer, not with you the parent, so you lose that little bit of chance of quality-time when you can educate them your way, not the government's way. Of course they will also demand that the children socialise through, and only through, their computer-network, to ensure they are supervised and to further increase the chasm between them and you, the parent.

Next will come compulsory brainwashing-programs, re-education, where they can actually check that you are awake, listening an complying. As the technology will allow most prison sentences to be served in home-detention, in front of the screen(s), which is so much cheaper for the tax-payer, sentences will be increased with mandatory home-jail for every petty offence (such as J-walking).

You think that you will be able to watch all that entertainment and High-Definition movies: No - you will be FORCED to watch that crap whether you like it or not. You will be tested on its contents and receive a remote electric-shock when you doze off.

1984 is around the corner. Julia must be extremely happy about it!

I'm with you Belly :)

I want the NBN.
I can't imagine why any Government would spend so much money on working out such a scheme if they didn't think it would eventually be worth it.

People deserve good quality internet, all over the country and not just in the cities.

Think of all the medical uses such a fast broadband could allow patients in country/bush areas to access. Think of all the money saved by not having to transport patients to cities, when surgeons and specialists could treat them online, if only they had a faster internet connection.

I doubt any Government would throw away what must be millions of dollars already spent on getting the NBN up to the stage it is at now?

Stopping it now really would be a waste of money.

"I can't imagine why any Government would spend so much money on working out such a scheme if they didn't think it would eventually be worth it."

For them it probably will be worth it. For the people in the bush maybe too, but would it be worth it for you and me?

Then why?

Because it will give them more control.
Because it's their plan to punish and take revenge on Telstra for being a privately-owned monopoly.
Because they promised their friends and kin great jobs in NBNCO.
Because it has meanwhile become a big party-political issue which they obviously cannot afford to let go, in case people say that "Liberals/Tony was wiser".

All the reasons you gave, Suzeonline, are good for people in the bush (unless the resulting government-control will outweigh those benefits), which means that the NBN should be implemented ONLY in the country/bush, not in the cities/suburbs. If you think of it, it may even be an incentive for people to move out to the country, so if that happens, I am even happy to pull my weight as a tax-payer for that.

Some of the comments are becoming quite concerning, control?
OH well lets move on this mornings headlines are an attempt to create a story .
So very often they are, we are told the numbers opting out of home phone lines is increasing and a danger to the NBN.
Well no, I left because land lines cost too much rental is more than the bill.
After the NBN combining all in to one gives three times the service at a very cheap rate, I would run back to it.
By the way Egypt attempt at freedom was born on the INTERNET ,not bad for young game players.

A fair bit of vic; is already on fiber optic, My telephone is voip. No rental, and less than two cents / min; to England. Local calls are ten cents, no time limit.
Pulls telstra into line.

Belly,

It looks like it is just starting to dawn on people that technology is advancing rapidly. Just as mobile phones now take the majority of calls in spite of being more expensive and lower quality, wireless is expanding rapidly. It is becoming a threat not only to fixed lines, but mobile phones as mobile VOIP phones come on line at rates that challenge Telstra's fixed line rates.

New compression and other technology has meant that data rates and number of users per tower (transmitter) have increased 10 fold in the last decade which increases service and reduces cost with almost no capital.

The NBN is will only be complete in 2020, and there is a very good chance that much of it will be obsolete.

The sanitized business case shows that the NBN will return a miserly profit based on 70% uptake of its services. 65% will wipe out that profit, and 60% will never see a profit. Can anyone here honestly put his hand on his heart and say that in 10 yrs time that 2/3rds of the population will still be on fixed lines?

If you can't then the NBN is destined to fail. If it fails it will become the defining hall mark of Labor for decades.

I at least in part agree with you Shadow Minister, we are progressing very fast and in time wireless or even satellite may make this obsolete, every thing suffers that fate.
Coppers age insures it too is being out dated.
However I left land lines on cost ,our Friend above saves heaps on his computer linked calls.
Today wireless costs more than landlines.
Telstra will continue to be in it for the cash.
NBN will give me more for less my hobby is ham radio, if it was possible, costs or not I would use that now it is not here.

Yes, you are probably right Shadow Minister, but worrying something will be obsolete in 10 years does not mean we should not start initiating it.
We would never advance our technology at all if we didn't.

Yuyitsu, I doubt we have this great conspiracy happening in Canberra where all the friends and kin of politicians advocating the NBN are waiting in the wings to take jobs and perks after it is implemented!
Lol :)

Where is the working demonstration model? From what I have seen Tasmania is nothing to skite about: It seems crazy to be thinking about a national program before it has been proven to work on a smaller scale. And is the cost estimate likely to be accurate, or will it fall well short. It would be unfortunate to nobble the copper network and then discover that Kevs big idea needs another 75 billion to make it work. After the education revolution and insulation debacles I am not filled with confidence.

WE NEED, WE NEED, WE NEED....../TO GET RID OF THIS GOVERNMENT.

Oh please, don't make a party-political issue out of this:

Yes Sonofgloin, if what it takes to get rid of the NBN is to get rid of the government - then so be it; and yes "JuliaGillardHasFailed", it is a typical socialist bungle, but such attitudes as "Tony's behind you" only cause Julia to dig in deeper - to force families to install her NBN at gunpoint and send out the tanks if necessary.

A much better approach would be for Tony to suddenly express support for the NBN - that will make Julia abandon the NBN at the drop of a hat!