How many times have I heard a theist query: “if there is no God, what is the point to it all?”
To which I reply “if there is a God, what is the point of it all?”
This is a simple 'what if' game. Let's say for the moment that God does exist, and that It created us.
Why?
I have never bothered to count to 1,000 just to make sure there wasn't a tiny flaw in the system, somewhere. Once I cottoned on to the idea that it was just a simple pattern endlessly repeated, I was totally confident the system 'worked'. In other words, if one knows the outcome of an experiment, beyond any doubt, why perform the experiment?
So my question is, if there is a God, why did It create us? What can we do for God, that It can't do for itself?

How many times have I heard a theist query: “if there is no God, what is the point to it all?”

Do I hear the sounds of the tiniest fiddle playing...this is now the clear signs that religious people have sermonized that they are in fact, alone on this planet like all the rest of us.

Congratulations, by moving on to the next step of human evolution.

"Whats the point to it all"! Get up off your arses and repair the world, that in your belief systems 'tells you that the great Creator made it all, just for you.

I know God said go forward and use the land I made for you, and exploit it, but use some commonsense.......I don't think you were supposed to take that literally.

BLUE

Grim, why is anybody's GUESS.

Why are we the only creature on Earth with a consciousness that is the core question to my mind? What does a consciousness give us in the survival stakes, nothing? All other creatures are focused on procreation and survival of the species. Yet if we willed it we could become extinct by our own volition within a generation. We understand the mechanism of procreation and can make a decision against it, animals cannot.

For example we understand "tomorrow" in a fashion that the squirrel does not, even though the squirrel puts food away for the winter there is no understanding of anything except the present but with a mechanism to ensure the survival of the species by storing away food for the lean season. This is not a conscious decision it is a programmed response to regular environmental change.

God or no God we are so vastly different from the life forms that we share this earth and most of our DNA with. Why?

If there is a creator, then he has placed us on an insignificant piece of rock subject to asteroid strikes, supernova and lethal solar radiation. This piece of rock is a boiling mass of red hot lava with a crust that is about 5% thick which results in earthquakes volcanoes and tsunamis.
"The creator" was not very clever or thoughtful and appears to be a complete moron for someone so awesome. Either that or he is maniacally malevolent. These are the only two options. A complete idiot or a megalomaniac - take your pick.

Interesting Question.

To which I reply “if there is a God, what is the point of it all?”

Werner Erhard, founder of EST training, adopted an approach to reconstructing the human organism as follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f17cu-TS-Tk

Before you dismiss this bloke as a crackpot.. realize this.

He was just one of around 200 organizations offering similar 'deconstruction/reconstruction' in the 70s

His ideas were closely related to the radical psychoanalysts who followed Freud's enemy "Wilhelm Reich".

Freud's daughter anna hated Reich. She was a virgin, and promoted the Freudian idea that our primal urges should be supressed or controlled.

Reich took the opposite approach. "Let our primal desires out"

Anna Freud succeeded in getting Reich expelled from the International Psychoanalytical Society. He was eventually jailed and his books and papers burned on state order. (usa)

REICH...down, but not out. His ideas were resurrected by those behind the EST and other radical psychoanalytical movements. (Fritz Perl is one)

BACK TO WERNER. "The objective of ES training is to go down through layer after layer after layer to the last layer....where they realize it's all meaningless" he says 'there is one more layer'... "When you realize that 'realizing' it's all meaningless (existentialism's endpoint) you have a total freedom to rebuild yourself"

So...to the original question. "What is the point of it all?"

NO GOD... there is no point.. meaningless..empy.. vaccuum.. do what when and how you like.(and to whom)

GOD.... Psalm 8:1ff

LORD, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!
You have set your glory
in the heavens

sonofgloin,
Good post!
We were created in His image - yet we behave as though he doesnt exist. When we fully imitate his pure and creative character we will know the purpose of our existence. It is about serving each other to the best of our current ability, rather than merely serving ourselves. Life is about sacrifice for the betterment of others.

Has this thread been designed to get up the nose of runner and AGIR?

It is obvious why the gods created us isn't it?

The big god, a crossdressing old curmudgeon, put us here in order that he could have sex with a human, a sheila called Mary.

He was so upset his offspring became a tradie unionist and not a professional type that he killed him off, to save the world from a rash of tradie wannabes pushing themselves around the place as being something 'special'.

Why are we here?

Easy!

We are here to make sure 'the market' can work.

Without us, do any of you think the lions and tigers of the world could have managed to organise anything as worthless and dangerous as 'the free market'?

No, indeed not.

The world will only be as the gods intended when every last human has every single item they have ever wanted, or even not wanted, and the free market has won over the entire world.

Simple.

The simple answer - sorry, my own simple answer - to the question "why is God", is that it is a handy shorthand method for some people to explain "why the universe"?

The most interesting aspect of that question for me is that it assumes that there has to be a reason for everything. It is far more useful and constructive, surely, to just answer "because", or "why not", and then move on to important stuff.

Like how to stop people killing each other every day because they cannot agree on the answer to the question "which God". A question that surely should be entirely redundant, until such time as we have a satisfactory answer to the "why is God" question.

But hey, we are only human.

And the likelihood of the human race being collectively smart enough to realize that there doesn't actually have to be a reason for our existence, and that the choice of which God, or no God, is purely a personal statement that is the business of no-one else, is so slim as to also be beyond worrying about.

Have a great day, everyone.

If there is no reason, then any reason the individual gives for his own existence is legitimate and we return to the lawless primitive dark ages.

You're in luck Philo, the free market can save us all.

No savage attacks, no arbitrary human behaviour.

In fact, I do believe the the free market IS god.

SOG.. yes...that was a refreshingly beautiful and honest post!

You raise the question.. may I invite Solomon(or "Author of Ecclesiastes) to partially answer it ?

Can? good :)

here is what he says: Ecc 3:11

//He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.//

Seems that's exactly where you are is it not ?

Seriously... if you've not read the whole Book of Ecclesiastes... I enthusiastically recommend it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1&version=NIV

His conclusion is helpful.

Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
Ch 12:13ff

13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil

People invent god/s

Because they can't conceive of

Life without purpose

Unfortunately

Many folk don't find meaning

In simply Being

ponde:>> If there is a creator, then he has placed us on an insignificant piece of rock subject to asteroid strikes,<<

Ponde a relevant observation, but in defense of positioning if we did not have big big brother Jupiter sitting there attracting the space flotsam from the outer solar system we would have daily strikes. In fact for our type of life form the Earth seems tailor made. So many aspects of our existence rely on miniscule degrees; it’s almost a design statement.

The bible should be retitled.....The ultimate guide for transforming man from monkey. Now The bible of natural selection, does in fact constitute a more believable reliably course of events.......which makes for a more "ADULT" reality/beginnings rather than the magical child-likes, of Casper the unfriendly ghost. (GOD)

I think another box of bananas is required:)

BLUE:)

AGIR:>>Seems that's exactly where you are is it not ? <<

Al if I knew where I was I would not be here.

It's obvious what the meaning of life is (but I'm not going to tell you).

42!

My question would be "Why do some think there is a God?"

At the end of the day, we only have some centuries-old guys word for that don't we?

Most people, in this country anyway, believe in the Christian God and his son Jesus, described in the bible. Some posters say we would be lawless primitives if not for these beliefs.

Were they all lawless primitives before Jesus was supposedly born?

We don't really know do we? No point asking the scientists or Anthropologists for clarification, because fanatical God believers don't believe in their opinions anyway!

We don't KNOW if there is really a God or not.

Gimli has posed an interesting -if peripheral- question, which is actually better answered by evolution and random mutation.
According to evolution theory, (one, at least) it is reasonable to assume -or guess- that life began in a puddle (or around a volcanic vent, but that's another story). It is easy to imagine a number of near or partial extinctions occurring in the puddle until one enterprising bug worked out how to survive outside the puddle.
And so the seas were populated. More mass extinctions, yadda yadda, enterprising critter crawls out of the ocean... yadda yadda, mass extinctions, life learns to fly, yadda yadda.
Another pattern.
So now we are all in one big box, which as Ponde points out is still a rather precarious position, and low and behold, a species arises which is capable of getting off the planet.
Not really any more amazing than the first amphibian or the first flying whatever, to my mind.
But totally peripheral to the question as I said.
As reasoning beings, we do things for reasons. They may not be good reasons, but...
My question remains: What possible reason could a God have, for creating life?

"What possible reason could a God have, for creating life?..."

Well man did invent the T.V.....:) The world is just one of gods Aust-star channels he flicks to from time to time. He's on channel 42 at the moment......hes watching the planet of the apes:)

Grim...that post made me near wet myself, well done:)

Well here's something else the ponder over.....

What if God is an alien?, then what?

BLUE

Deep Blue... by 'alien' do you mean....(dare I write it?) ... Muslim?

Gosh, wouldn't that put a spanner in Julia Gillard's Baptist values system she is so proud of?

Or do you mean to imply that god is currently thought of as 'human' but might be Mork (or Mindy)?

That is deep fodder for intellectual thought and we need runner to assist us here, or AGIR, or 'Sells'.

Calling all fundies, rush to the Intellectual Deck as soon as you can please.

God, every one of them is the sum of humanity's fears and promises.
Hope and need to understand the wounder of life and explain death while taking the fear out of it.
All these things and more from our cave days to now loyalty to a God or his her priests is rewarded, not bending to their will punished.
We know, those of us willing to look, the last 150 years has seen a decline in the God of the western world, and rise of others.
learn not discriminate in the name of any God, as we see the self assurance seen here in one Gods name, we will confront our reality, it is better to live by the words men invented in the name of Gods.
We hopefully will continue to distance our selves from the view God is our master.
Heaven just ours, would be very crowded, and all those on their knees is not my idea of such, what human would bring us tour knees in worship?
If our task do so in an after life I am better for refusing.

The blue cross......

Deep Blue... by 'alien' do you mean....(dare I write it?) ... Muslim? Since I see and listen to only facts, religion and all that's man made does not come under that mind categorizations which only primitives still holds dear.

Muslim's/Christians are bothersome........two pea's in different pods, but the same....No time for either.

http://tinyurl.com/4975cy2

http://tinyurl.com/46yyqnb

http://tinyurl.com/4g84wjl

Could God, after the creation of earth and all the stuff on it, have decided to start creating other inhabited worlds here and there. Some very religious types state that there are no ETs because the bible makes no direct reference to them, however the bible (especially the old) is a pretty dated book, and it would be rather difficult to believe God coming to earth to add his latest amendments and accomplishments 400 light years away which would be of little consequence to us to begin with.

Whats your theory on what God did on the 8th day. We look through the hubble and see nearly infinate amounts of galaxys, all housing stars, many stars of which have planets...could the biblical God be keeping busy making world after world and simply not bothering to write new passages every few years/days/hours whenever he does something new, or is God pretty much limited to this one world and no other?

BLUE

Deep Blue

This is THE answer to the whole question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9bMi4s_yOE

denying and mocking just confirms the desperate need of a Saviour we all have. The irrational no chance big bang theory shows how desperate the deniers are. No wonder the idiotic man made gw theory is so popular with the deniers. Thankfully biblical prophecy is accurate unlike that of the scientific soothsayers. I wonder what the next dreamt up theory there will be? Please don't answer that.

And here's runner right on que:)

If only lotto was as easily predicted as our be-loved brethren.

TBC....it must be hard for them to think that small...lol...and loved the link:)

You might remember me from this quote....."God is not what you think it is"

After all, we humans are the only ones that don't fit the bill:)

Good luck
\

BLUE

SoG,

Your claimed search for answers would look a lot more genuine and sincere if you didn’t so readily plonk god into unknowns.

<<Why are we the only creature on Earth with a consciousness that is the core question to my mind?>>

Most creatures have a consciousness to some degree - even if they’re not as “aware” as we are. If they had no consciousness at all, then they would be indistinguishable from robots - which don’t even know they exist. And to suggest that this may point to the existence of a god is just silly. It’s like Blue Whales sitting back and thinking: “Wow! We’re the biggest creatures that have ever lived. There must be a god!”

<<What does a consciousness give us in the survival stakes, nothing?>>

Nothing?

For starters, it improves an animal’s sensory and motor co-ordination if they're aware of what they're actually doing at the time.

But a characteristic of a living organism doesn’t have to be an advantage to evolve, and even if it presents a potential disadvantage, that potential disadvantage has to be put into action before natural selection takes its course...

<<...if we willed it we could become extinct by our own volition within a generation.>>

Yes, if we did. But we haven’t. We have other evolved urges and instincts that override any possibility of doing such a thing.

Evolution isn’t a conscious force that has foresight in what might or might not prove to be a hindrance. Hence our backwards retinas and the fact that we eat an breath through the same hole.

<<God or no God we are so vastly different from the life forms that we share this earth and most of our DNA with. Why?>>

I don’t actually think we’re all that different, but if you do, then I guess you’re faced with two options:

-Acknowledge that you don’t know and look for some answers, or;
-Be lazy and plonk god in there as an explanation.

It's up to you.

Deep Blue

Yes, dear runner, right on time to save us all.

He is called 'runner' because he runs from the truth, not towards it.

But, he runs for the King, no less.

Could that really be Elvis?

The concept of God is a manifestation of all that we don't understand and all that we fear - particularly the fear of death.

It's a handy one-size-fits-all package that becomes the answer to every question, whether it be "His Will" or Him "working in mysterious ways" - a way to understand the unknowable.

The old man with the telescope watching everything makes it seem more likely that He will alter his Grand Plan for the entire universe to meet your demands if you pray to Him hard enough.

Some insist they not only know what He wants but what He looks like but I find the idea that He 's so lonely and insecure that He has to create His own friends to worship Him a bit too unsettling.

As for us being somehow special and different from everything else, sentience is perhaps a way for the universe to know itself and life takes whatever form it needs to to reproduce and maintain itself.
Perhaps we just were in the right place at the right time.

What religion is this bloke you talk about. Is he on u tube. What breed was he. There's a lot you people don't mention.

Oh, I just realised I missed a bit...

<<In fact for our type of life form the Earth seems tailor made.>>

Well it would, wouldn’t it?

If it didn’t, then we wouldn’t be here to make such an observation.

Grim and AJ, I still believe we are unique even though we came from the same puddle and have the same evolutionary footprint as all other living things.

Consciousness to my mind is the ability to ponder things that have no part in our survival. Our pre occupation with the universe is a prime example. Do you believe the higher ranked mammals, who suckle and care for their young and can display reasoning, can be playful, and definitely have individual characters are taking time out to look at the sky and ask "why are we here".

All these things animals do, that we put a "human" value to are done by the animal as a hard wired activity; young animals are particularly playful because it hones their hunting skills etc.

Our consciousness is unique, and if we came from the same puddle, it should be common and it is not.

AJ Philips:>> Your claimed search for answers would look a lot more genuine and sincere if you didn’t so readily plonk god into unknowns.<<

AJ, how genuine and sincere do you want me to be, back it up with money, you’re on, fist fight in the back lane, you’re in big trouble....just joking. AJ you make me sound like Von Daniken, as if I have a theme, I express opinion based on observation and bullscheise, as we all do.

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of those ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'till the end of time ...
But He loves you!"
(George Carlin).

For many years it was widely felt that as science progressively provided rational explanations for the mysteries of the universe, religion would have less and less of a role to play and would eventually disappear, unmasked as nothing more than superstition. But there are still gaps in our understanding that science can never fill. On the ultimately important questions - of the meaning and purpose of live and the nature of morality. Few citizens of modern societies would utterly deny the possibility of some higher power in the universe, some supernatural, transcendental realm that lies beyond the boundaries of ordinary experience, and in this fundamental sense religion is probably here to stay.

Watch out! The wheel-chair activist are back, and having fun on another thread............just love the dears:)

BLUE

Lexi, "Few citizens of modern societies would utterly deny the possibility of some higher power in the universe, some supernatural, transcendental realm that lies beyond the boundaries of ordinary experience, and in this fundamental sense religion is probably here to stay."

Umm, did you write this, or do you have 'proof'?

Is this part of a Pew Global (for instance), or just made up from wishful thinking on your part?.

'Religion', as a system of rip offs and foolishness and hegemonic power may well continue, so long as there are fools in the world.

However, if you look beyond the man made crap that passes as 'religion', you might be able to mount a case for 'something', not sure what.

Is that what you mean, or do you really believe, like runer, in the mumbo-magic that passes as 'religion'?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9bMi4s_yOE ......sorry blue cross...Ive just got to play it again. I hope you don't mind:)

BLUE

I wonder if all are with-in such boundaries? Lets play a new game:) Its called, those with big words that don't have a clue:) Funny old world, isn't:)

While your all having a great time.....well, lets see what your,ve got next:)

For leader-ship......you seem to have it all:)

As you are:)

BLUE

TBC:

Some form of religion has existed in every society that we know of. Religious beliefs and practices are so ancient that they can be traced into prehistory, perhaps as far back as 100,000 years ago. Even the Neanderthal people of that time, it seems had some concept of a supernatural realm that lay beyond everyday reality. Among the fossilized remains of these cave dwellers, anthropologists have found evidence of funeral ceremonies in the form of flowers and artifacts that were buried with the dead, presumably to acompany them on the journey to an afterlife. Although religion is a universal social institution, it takes a multitude of forms. Believers may worship gods, ancestors, or totems; they may practice solitary meditation, frenzied rituals, or solemn prayer. And of course obviously religion cannot be defined in terms of Western religious tradition alone. Emile
Durkheim, one of the earliest sociologist believed that the origins of religion were social, not supernatural. He pointed out that, whatever their source, the rituals enacted in any religion enhanced the solidarity of the community as well as its faith. Religious rituals such as Baptism, Bar Mitzvah, Weddings, Sabbath Services, Christmas Mass, and funerals serve to bring people togehter; to remind them of their common group membership; to reaffirm their traditional values, and to offer comfort in times of crisis, and in general, to help transplant the cultural heritage from one generation to the next. In fact, Durheim argued, that shared religious beliefs and the rituals that go with them are so important that every society needs a religion, or at least some belief system that serves the same functions. Many people may no longer deeply believe in traditional religion, but they may not have found a satisfying substitute. If you have that's wonderful. My beliefs have been expressed so many times on
OLO - live and let live is my usual ethos. I do not, by nature, thrive on confrontation. I don't think the adversarial format is well designed to get at the truth. Enjoy your week-end, as I intend to do.

What about a photos[s] or image of a Being draped in a white gown illuminated on a dark stormy night in the early 80's over a couple of paddocks around the Riverina Suze? An image almost identical to images depicted of Jesus across the world, taken on an old camera. A school girlfriend circulated the photo around to quite a few of us.

Despite the old photo, have always gone with my experiences keeping them to myself and believed in God as opposed to believing the Bible stories. To be truthful, Suze, that first edition/testament scared the heck out of me one year reading it and put me right off the Bible and religion forever.

Only time will tell for each of us.......

Once upon a time

There was no God, until some

Fool invented It

Maybe God just lost interest. Wo could blame him/her. He/she certainly showed more patience with people than I could ever muster. I actually feel sorry for God. Just imagine the disappointment that people are. If I were God I'd make conception dependent on sense. No overpopulation problems then. God or no God, people are the problem.

individual,
I have to agree, "people are the problem".
When people gather together as family or community you need rules of engagement - decency, respect and love to function harmoniously as a group.
The first principle of God is a moral image which we can all admire and live by the standards. The problem is we do not all agree on the standards and being human we are individually rebellious and self appointed judges of the standards. The first account of this as recorded was Eve and Adam who committed theft, resulting in insecurity, accusation all in an endeavour to justify and cover their misdemeanour and the guilt of their conscience.

Lexi there is a vast gulf between 'some higher power in the universe' and what you offer as an excuse for 'religion', which, as you describe it, is simply an agreement to pretend something exists in order to curb bad behaviour, which, of course, as we all know only too well, is not the result from 'religion' at all.

Organising community rules has nothing at all to do with pretending there is a 'higher power'.

In fact, just look at the abysmal record of child abuse from the major churches, the Salvo's, and the poor sods who end up being fostered by fundie families and then you'd know that there clearly is no 'higher power' that motivates 'the religious' at all.

Thank you, but I really do not need your permission to 'aveagoodweekend.

Dear Lexi :) "Theology 101* time.....

you said:

Durkheim, one of the earliest sociologist believed that the origins of religion were social, not supernatural.

While not completely agreeing with that.. I do absolutely affirm that this is the role of traditional religions.. paganism etc. They connected the 'tribe' to the cosmos and gave meaning to their existence.

In fact..that's how Paul describes the 'blurred' level of comprehension of the natural man.

//Romans 1:20 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen//

People have variously interpreted those qualities and ended up with various forms of taboo's and pagan ritual. Make no mistake...the 'spiritual' aspect of paganism is VERY real and central.

But the DIFFERENCE between all such natural religions and God's self revelation in the history of Israel was his actual intervention in history in dramatic ways.

If you look (to take just one example) at the plagues of Egypt (sounding quite relevant now no ? :) Each plague was aimed at demonstrating YHWH's power over specific Egyptian deities.
The history of the Exodus etc.. is a major historical event series which is now indelibly imprinted on Jewish and world history.

Ultimately.. the 'difference' was epitomized in the Lord Jesus.. as he said to John the Baptists followers when they asked

"Are you he who is to come or should we look for another"

He replied:

“Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.” (luke7.22)

"That"....is the difference.

Notice the final sentence ? :)

TBC:

I am puzzled by your lack of comprehension. Kindly re-read my posts.
I am not - 1) Offering an "excuse" for religion or 2) stating that "something" exists in order to curb bad behaviour, and so on. You seem to have only one idea about me - and it's wrong. As for needing my permission to have a good week-end? I was merely being polite in wishing you a "good week-end" - I don't know you, and frankly could care less what you actually do with your time.

the abysmal record of child abuse from the major churches.
TBC,
What on earth has a God (if there is one) to do with Churches & Religion ? Church 7 religion have been a rather handy tool to control the masses. The west is gradually getting away from it but unfortunately, the other big religion is still generations from enlightenment.

AGIR:

Thank You for your clarification - I know how important your beliefs are to you. Of course your explanations are based on the Judeo-Christian ideas about religion. On the central beliefs that there exists one supreme being or God that God created the universe and all life and takes a continuing interest in the creation; that there is a life hereafter, and that our moral behaviour in this life influences our fate in the next. However, you must realize that many religions do not recognise a supreme being, and a number do not believe in gods at all. Several religions ignore questions about the origins of the universe and life, leaving these problems to be dealt with instead by nonreligious myth. Many religions assume that the gods take little interest in human affairs. Some have almost nothing to say about life after death, and many - do not link our earthly morality with our fate beyond the grave. And of course, as I stated in my earlier post religion cannot be defined in terms of Western religious tradition alone.

A look at early law was linked to blessings and cursing on human behaviour in this life from the gods. Take the laws of Hammurabi as an example. The character Job from the Old Testament was tried under Hammurabi law because he had supposedly violated its code and was supposedly suffering from the curses of the gods of the Earth [the Elohim] according to his accusers.

With respect, I find this whole thread is rather inane, akin to navel gazing!
It begs the question is there any real point to this thread at all?

For those that don't believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, any discussion of fairies would also be equally pointless.
Remember that in this modern era of enlightenment, there is only ONE main difference between theists and atheists, and that is that the latter believe in only one less god than the former!
JMHO

I have studied the bible in great detail and I have come to the conclusion that God died on 22nd November 1963. He did not leave a last will and testimony all he said was "Ever who's last to leave, turn off the lights!"

Well we now joined by few dishonest people who cannot accept their reality as a purposeful created being.

I am tolerant of any man's beliefs that will allow him to go forth in peace to his death.

As long of course that he doesn't impose his limitations on me, but then there are many who are trying to limit my freedom and relatively few of them from the religions.

To Philo & Cornflower,

"I reject your reality, and substitute mine" !

However, being the tolerant sinner that I am, I don't care if people want to believe in the tooth fairies, or their imaginary friends for that matter.

After all, many people carry their delusional beliefs into adulthood, and actually manage to appear quite normal.

From Wikipedia:
Imaginary friends are made often in childhood, sometimes in adolescence, and rarely in adulthood. They often function as tutelaries when played with by a child. They reveal, according to several theories of psychology, a child's anxieties, fears, goals and perceptions of the world through that child's conversations.

NB: Also, don't forget to keep feeding the Troll's !

Of course, runner *wants* you to have his limitations, would celebrate these being enforced upon you and is ignorant of just how limited he (she? it?) is when compared to adults with an education.

Oh, runner thinks not much of university education too.

Jolly good, runner's views are appropriate for serfs, I think.

Rusty

falcopilot,
Obviously you have no reason for being and no idea where you are going. The extent of your being is your own drives and physical sensations.
I know many adults who have come to faith in later life and enjoyed living following Christ.

Dear Lexi

thanks for your kindly response.

You said: (re Christianity I think)

"that our moral behaviour in this life influences our fate in the next."

Just want to point out that this is not as simple as it seems... nor as straightforward. What you described does capture "Islam" quite well, except that they would stipulate that it is mandatory to believe that Muhammad is the last messenger of Allah as well, which boils down to 'justification by faith' but they generally don't get that.

Though for me.. if given the choice between a man who is just so much dust in the ground now (Muhammad) and he who said he had the power to take back the life he freely gave up (Jesus)....I know which I would logically choose. As it happened..He chose me, I didn't choose him.

But the core belief of Christianity (Protestant) is this "Justification by faith alone".

This is so crucially vital and foundational...that I don't mind laboring it.

The Reformed understanding (which is the Biblical one) is that faith is first.. then the consequent renewal leads to the ethical change and the 'moral behavior' you spoke of.

The way you explained it could be understood to mean that 'we', by living morally, will thereby...enter heaven. ie.. our moral actions are that which make us 'worthy'... nope.. we don't see it that way, we see it as Christ took our sins upon himself, and that sets us free from the power and penalty of sin. True repentance, true faith, will automatically result in moral actions.

But please understand this... it is Christ who makes us worthy of acceptance by the Father...not our moral deeds.

Don't mean to *preach* :) but do need to make that point which is seldom understood.

- we got flooded out last night :) what a site.. waking up.. (after HEAVY rain) then..... I saw it.. water!.. creeping in.... in.. further.. all over.. yuk.

From Wikipedia:

Superstition is a credulous belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge. The word is often used pejoratively to refer to folk beliefs deemed irrational, which is appropriate since irrational means "not based on reason". This leads to some superstitions being called old wives' tales. It is also commonly applied to beliefs and practices surrounding luck, prophecy and spiritual beings, particularly the irrational belief that future events can be foretold by specific unrelated prior events.

Also from Wiki:

Witchcraft, in historical, anthropological, religious and mythological contexts, is the alleged use of supernatural or magical powers.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The latter was probably close to being an actual religion of choice in times past, and it seems to me that any intelligent rational analysis would indicate that witchcraft is just as wacky as most of the modern day religions are.
They all seem require a certain degree of naivety and/or gullibility.

falcopilot it is hard to see a reason for your posts here.
Why if you dislike the thread try to impose your will here?
My dogs yours too believe in a God.
It is true think about it.
I feed them cuddle them on my lap in winter by the fan in summer.
reward them if they do as I say, neglect,for a few minutes them if they do not.
I am no God but do not tell my dogs that.
Philo is in his 80,s probably a nice bloke, forgive him for outbursts about dishonesty and such.
He is the product of his lifetime experiences.
From his birth under a God that had servants who yelled screamed and threatened us, that said sex was sin, yet molested children.
Philo that nice old bloke is a marker of time and change only 15 years behind him I know man can do any thing and in inventing GODS, remember we have many, we showed a basic goodness in us the inventor of nice storys/fables

Gods sense of humour varies for His different sects.

Conversely, their sense of humour about Him varies.

AGIR:

I don't mind at all - clarify away. How can I possibly object to a man who wants to drive a red ferrari just for me all over the eastern suburbs? ;-)

cont'd ...

Al,

I trust that you and yours are safe and well and that the rain did not do too much damage?

Why is "god" ?

"god" is a vestigialism.

Until recently, humans died young, of a variety of diseases. Exceptions became the old man or woman of the village, unreliable but yet the only memory of times gone.

Children cleave unto their parents, protesting at their absence. Most faced young adulthood with recently dead parents and responsibilities.

Many still find "what would dad (or mum) do?" a useful mental tool in loosening up the thought processes to deal with a problem.

Without the scope of present cultural capital, how easy to imagine a world where "dad" still watches and gives subtle advice as when still alive, carefully letting us learn by our supervised mistakes. How easy then to imagine a "bigger dad" to take care of the things that a "dad" manifestly cannot.

And so it goes.

The end of this is a contemptible condition of nominal "adults" unable to distinguish between things they can understand and either control or account for, and things they cannot, and hoping "bigger dad" will fix it, if only they "please" enough.

Notice that "bigger dad" is expected to overlook and excuse sophistry that a real living dad would be remiss in not correcting:
You are not allowed to do "x", (*nor* may you pay a mate to do it for you on sabbath, says a *real* dad). You will be punished for "y", (and *no* you may not elect a scapegoat, says a *real* dad). and so on. Trivial exceptions in mere dogma are a sure sign that religion is both invented and intended to simulate parental indulgence.

Rusty

falcopilot it is hard to see a reason for your posts here.
Why if you dislike the thread try to impose your will here?
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 5 February 2011 4:22:41 PM

As for imposing my will, i am fully aware that I cannot force anyone to do anything that they do not want to do, end of story.

As for the reason, I consider myself a polymath, and I am simply just passing on obvious truths.

By way of explanation, if you read The Emperor's New Clothes on wikipedia (just google it), you should be able to join all the dots, such that all will be revealed.

For those too lazy to look it up, the gist of the story is as follows:

The Emperor had been conned into believing that his courtiers had dressed him in magic clothes, that while invisible to him, would be visible to all his loyal subjects.
The king then paraded himself in front of his loyal subjects, who obviously could see he had no clothes on.

Now the dilemma, to tell the king or not to tell him?
If you tell him, you will obviously embarrass him, and probably make him feel foolish.

If don't tell him, he is going to keep on making an even bigger and bigger fool of himself, in front of more and more people, and in the end someone will eventually tell him anyway.

On balance, I think you will agree that it is better to tell him sooner rather than later, so as to minimize the damage.

Continued on next post!

Continuation from last post:

Then again, of course, if he is irrational and/or delusional, he won't believe you anyway, and he will just keep on wearing no clothes, and will go on to make an even bigger fool of himself. But that's life, and at least you have a clear conscience, and at least you tried.

In days gone by, whenever thiests stuck there heads above the radar and made fools of themselves, , athiests would simply say nothing, to avoid embarrassment.
But, like the the words of that well known song, The Times They Are A'Changing!

We now live in educated and enlightened times indeed, and if the Emperor is indeed wearing no clothes and deluding himself, it is about time that we at least started an education program to stop a perpetuation of of all this absolute silliness.

The catalyst for this mindset change, by the way, is the damage being done with all the religious extremism. Teaching creationism in science classes is absolute rubbish, and September 11 type acts, done in the name of religion is not on.

So, a line has to be drawn in the sand, to at least START educating people to wake up to themselves. It will take time, but a start has to be made somewhere.
After all, there is some light at the end of the tunnel, because at least witchcraft is a lot less common today than it used to be. So enlightenment is working, over time, slowly but surely.
I am perfectly aware that you can't talk to those, whose minds are closed, therefore,
I am not the least interested in trying to educating the ones with closed minds.
So to those of you, who do possess an open mind, this is actually being addressed to you!

Why state that exact date by the way Paul?

I have studied the bible in great detail and I have come to the conclusion that God died on 22nd November 1963. He did not leave a last will and testimony all he said was "Ever who's last to leave, turn off the lights!"
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 5 February 2011 12:55:38 PM

Paul that was the date President Kennedy was assassinated and a date close to my heart for a separate reason. Why state that date even in jest; am interested.

For those of you who don't think they have to toe the line, this is what Gods going to do to you!

28:27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28:28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
28:29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
28:30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.
28:31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.
28:32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand.

Hi Rusty, thanks for at least trying to address the question I originally posed, although with respect you have explained -quite reasonably- why there is a belief in God, not why is God (remember this is a 'what if' game).
My reason for this post is that since 2006 I have been participating in religious discussion at OLO, and almost invariably they have degenerated into a "Is so too! Is not neither!" Style of debate. I was hoping we as adults could perhaps address the question of whether or not there is a God rationally.
When such a large portion of the Human population believe in some god or gods, as an egalitarian I think it a little arrogant that sceptics should just dismiss the belief out of hand.
An investigation into the beliefs of many past Nobel prize winners tends to indicate even high intelligence and education are not guarantees against irrational beliefs.
So why not investigate the question seriously?
In the (apparently quite deliberate, from the theists side) absence of any tangible evidence, is there any way to establish or demolish the putative existence of God?
Science has demonstrated the Universe, if not infinite, is certainly indescribably bloody big. Using mediocrity principle, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest life has occurred many many times, in many many places. Some of these life forms could have started millions of years before ours did, and evolved more quickly.
IOW, There are quite conceivably life forms out there far more technologically and philosophically more advanced than we are. It has already been conceived that an advanced race could create a 'Matrix'. It's also conceivable that the inhabitants of such a matrix would not have access to the (blue, was it?) right coloured pill.
So the long version of my question becomes not 'Why is God', but 'why are we?' And if we are a construct as the theists claim, how, by using rational thought alone, do we prove or disprove it?

Paul1405,
Please give context when quoting Deuteronomy 28. These people were living in windswept desert conditions and opressed by enemies were prone to follow the behaviour of the native pagan people. How does that apply to our situations? The passage you quote was in a deark period of their history. They interpreted everything as experience under the hand of God. Even darker days were still to come, Assyria, Babylon, Persian, Greek, Roman occupation and scattered to the ends of the Earth for nearly 2000 years till 1948. The amazing thing is these people are still around today in one of the most prosperous countries in the Middle East. What does that say about their God?

What have you written about the dark periods of your life and how did you exit such in confidence and promise?

the big clue to knowing god[good]
is know thyself

why are we here?..because god asked the same question

think of the big-bang as a let there be light moment
when the et-earnal good ..realised there was more to being eternal..than just being what i am..

he dared ask what am i

the life the uni-verse and everything egsists because he does
the universe is reflecting..the path he explored simply trying to find out what he is..

everything he believed defined him lives..has laws..motion..sub-stance

certainty that now egsists..because he egsisted..to make them real

we talk about evolution
this only reveals what god explored then decided no thats not me..im more that that...then evolved ever higher...but leaving behind him a trail...that retains his life essences..thus also retains living

but whats the use..in time we shall all know
the same way god knew himself..by living it
and leaving behind our creations..that reveal where we have been[reveal; what we were then]

[but then we have those soooo clever..
that say ..its all by chance

thats such a joke..lol

everything has its cause
if you dont know the cause..your guessing
cant replicate what you believe..then your decieved and decieving

life can only come from life
so the cause...* must be living too..!

replicate..
but dont dare speculate its fact
...if you cant make one ...just like it

theories are like buttholes...we all got at least one

I thought the meaning of life had been settled, once and for all!
I searched Wiki and found it!
Therefor, think we can all now all agree that it is dead, buried and cremated.
So, now thatthat it is finally settled and answered, we can all now get on and have a lives and perhaps have a life, and even do something meaningful and fulfilling,

Wikipedia (that undisputed authority on everything) quotes the following:
.........the Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything from the supercomputer, Deep Thought, specially built for this purpose. It takes Deep Thought 7½ million years to compute and check the answer, which turns out to be 42.

Take the red pill:) for how deep the truth can go, or take the blue pill and stay in wonderland. lol....The choice is easy to me:)

http://tinyurl.com/4twtth

Chariots of the gods man! is evidence is all over the place, if you choose to see.

If not see you in church:)

The choice is yours.

BLUE

Early start of to the beach side market day.
This thread came to mind as I haunted the garden stalls.
Again and again I walked past this old gentleman playing a mouthorgan.
His bill Bord had little quotes from the Bible, every now and again he would take out the organ and talk in a clear and crisp voice, to himself.
Every stall,Sunday morning had a crowd around it.
Most about my age.
Yet the only person I saw was a lady taking a photo of him.
Go back 50 years and it would have been different no stalls just a revival meeting then home,Sunday was Gods day.
Tip for gardeners,go to the markets three plants for the price of one at the tin shed, and as good or better.

I don't know what that last post was, but Yeah.....all good I think:/

"Most about my age"......yeah...:)about 4000 years old:)

Bellies, we are talking about "WHY IS GOD"......not where you think you found him...:)

All the best.

BLUE

Ah, yes Grim. I got derailed by some of the other posts on the thread.

Lets take a matrix-style sim universe and your question what can we do for "god", or perhaps "what can the matrix do for god?" that it cannot do itself.

perhaps explore large random "information spaces", much as we run "genetic" algorithms to develop truss structures, cicuit diagrams and such that are (a) incomprehensible from a formal design viewpoint and (b) work. More concretely, a solution of random RNA polymers will contain many disparate examples capable of catalysing a convenient test reaction, some better than others. Peptides derived from randomly polymerised DNA are similarly repositories of catalytic novelty beyond our capacity to just design.

Just because a universe may be buildable (or simulable) doesn't make it limited. Turing proposed that a given logical processor can be understood in terms of, and in principle replaced by a simpler one taking longer. perhaps principles of logic, or process or proportionality are truly extra-universal? set up a model universe, with different rules and see if these arise. Perhaps life and philosophy take such different forms in each attempt as to be true wonder to the builder. We ourselves observe emergent behaviour in various systems. In some, random systems produce consistent output (as consistent as radiodecay expressed as a half-life), some consistent inputs generate unpredictable outputs (divergent processes, anything "chaotic" in a mathematical sense).

Given Turing's idea, it is very feasible for the "builder" to be no more intrinsically capable than the matrix-dwellers, making a toy universe an awesome tool.

As to how to prove or disprove, coming soon, though the answer is not satisfactory.

Rusty

Paul1405 gives us some dire reasons why we should believe in a God.

Did God actually say those things Paul1405, or did some people write in a book 2000 years ago that a God said those words?

How do you know that what the Bible says is true?

How did people manage to get by before the Bible was written?

It must have been a very sinful world indeed.

suzeonline,
The scribes of Israel wrote what was actually happening to Israel at that time, and they understood all things happened under the blessings and cursings of God. Even as today: neglect human effects on the environment and you reap a curse says the Lord. The Lord introduced a time of fallow for crops, to neglect this principle is to effect the harvest. Blessings and cursings were natural events as interpreted by the scribes as of the God of heaven and Earth.

Belly, not bellies.
Now have you noticed you are not getting answers?
If your task is to follow me about and have a go, at least get the name right, if you can.
I am not answering much you say, but you should not get a free run at atempting to be a smarty, you are failing by the way.

Bellies...

"Now have you noticed you are not getting answers?"

Now I hope you don't want me to go down to that beach side markets and start talking to this old man there:) Now Bellies, If I ever start talking to thin air and receive an answer, Iam off to the nearest psychiatrist to tell him I found god.....and guess what happens next:)

But a nice little story none the less, you never know bellies....he just might be god.

BLUE

The following scene is taken from a Catholic primary school.

Question from Grim:

Sister Rosemary if there is a God why did it create us?

Answer from Sister Rosemary:

To know Him, Love Him, Serve Him, and be together with Him in this world and the next.

Question from Grim:

What can we do for God, that it can't do for itself?

Answer from Sister Rosemary:

Know Him, Love Him, Serve Him, Obey His Commandments and covert others to Know Him, Love Him, Serve Him, and Obey His Commandments!

The amazing thing is these people are still around today in one of the most prosperous countries in the Middle East. What does that say about their God?

Philo, I suppose it says "Gods a capitalist". The reality is God can be whatever you want him, her, it to be. All you have to do is fashion God to your likeness. Christians have lots of Gods, he (Christians like God to be male)is fashioned to suit their beliefs, lifestyle values etc. If enough people like your God then you have followers and you form a cult. If your cult becomes socially acceptable then you have a religion, which reflects the beliefs, lifestyle, values etc of your society. I'm sure the God Jesus believed in is not the same God the Pope believes in, although the Pope would say he is, I don't think so, the Jesus God is a bit to hard, demanding, tough for most Christ people of today. The Greeks and Romans had the right idea you have lots of Gods and just pick a God off the shelf to suit the occasion, as good as any system.

We understand the mechanism of procreation and can make a decision against it, animals cannot.

...................

I have just started reading this discussion and I encountered this sentence. I cannot answer well the questions attached to this post. A premise wrapped into a loaded question with an anticipated answer is beyond me, when put with anger. So back to the sentence, the general use of the word 'we', denotes the writer's preference, and so the writer knows about procreation and introduces a preference against procreation because of the capacity for decision making. I would suggest it is an interesting worldview to hold. I can understand the need to discuss over-population of the planet, yet I feel this is not what the sentence describes, rather I see a worldview wondering why we look like animals, yet when we look at animals we do and do not see ourselves... maybe. However that above sentence still looks messy. Why assume my worldview should dismiss procreation as that sentence does? Sorry I arrived now, but the timeline, and the timing and no idea aye... why the premise in the early part of an abstract discussion on God demands I assume procreation is an all bad part of life... very ugly and got me thinking, so I spoke my remark. Best I stop at post three.

I hope to forgive myself for thinking, how so silly I feel. Anyhow, I be betting I look silly... the God subject can be really ...ummmm, animal like

Hi Lexi, yes that is pretty much it. I have trouble respecting anyone who would want to spend eternity only with unimaginative, unquestioning sycophants; but that is pretty consistent with the personality of the Old Testament God.
It seems to me that developing the 'Holy Trinity' was a logical necessity, when introducing the rather novel concept of a compassionate, benevolent, loving God. The old testament version was a much more 'natural' God; thunder, lightning, cyclones, floods, droughts and plagues are all clear (to primitives) signs of a cranky vengeful God, and morality doesn't exist in the animal kingdom. So rather than a reformed God (who still does all the cranky stuff) we now have a Son, who's a really nice bloke.
And of course the Holy Ghost, who's the only one that gets to have any fun, since the other two would never stoop to having congress with a woman (or man, presumably).
But once again this has nothing to do with the question. If there is a 'Creator' and we do live in a Matrix-like construct, what is it trying to prove?
It appears to me the 2 opposing sytems, both in the natural world and in human affairs, is competition and cooperation.
Hivelike behaviour compared to individual effort, which inadvertently (as if by an invisible hand) achieves a good result for the whole system -usually.
Well actually 3 characteristics; Competition versus Cooperation in the living world, dealing with large doses of random chance supplied by the non-living world.
Which copes best, or are both equally essential, or is there a perfect ratio?

Sorry, the last part of my last post seemed a little confused on rereading; swapping between 2 and 3, I was reminded of a book that came out a few decades ago by Luke Rhinehart, about a man who tried to live his life by random chance alone.
Although lotteries are pretty popular in a lot of societies, I'm not aware of any society which was based on luck; although sci fi writer Larry Niven speculated about an overcrowded world where a lottery decided who could have children.
An alien race concluded Humans were deliberately selectively breeding for luck.

Grim, you have to give top marks to the bloke who invented the notion of the holy trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Sprite, that adds the wow factor to the whole God story. The simpletons they were preaching to must have been blown away by the whole thing, as they are today. I like the Hindus they have Gods for everything great concept. Can anyone tell what makes the Christians wright and the Hindus wrong?

Paul1405

Can I tell you, it all comes from the same primitive imaginations:)

BLUE

[Deleted for abuse.]

We were created in His image - yet we behave as though he doesnt exist.

.................

He is created in our image - we believe he exists and is reflected in our behaviour. But we could be mistaken. Might be it is that our prayers are to humanity because we invented answers to the deep existential questions. In doing so, we (humanity) discovered we have the capacity to put names on everything we touch. Eventually we touched the abstract and then the questions came on thick and fast. Settling the crowd and all, I needed a mountain to hide upon... while my answers are nonsense, but will help. I have now hidden the original questions and you over there, put some clothes on ...and I name him by his male gender as I scream loudly and throw things at the TV for trying to sell me death insurance rather than condoms. I am an image? Kewl, maybe I am...

>>Know Him, Love Him, Serve Him, Obey His Commandments and covert others to Know Him, Love Him, Serve Him, and Obey His Commandments!<<

Indeed, Lexi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z8AddFYCnA

Those old enough will remember this seminal scene from Bedazzled, those too young will get as big a laugh as when Pete 'n Dud first appeared on the big screen.

Some things never date...

[Deleted for abuse.]

[Deleted because it referred to previous thread]

[Off topic.]

William James is not alone in being convinced that St. Paul was converted to Christianity by a vision that was the result of a seizure. Other neurological complaints such as szhizoid events can also be recurrent and form part of a person's normal life experience; many such people never develop complete schizophrenia but sit half way on the spectrum between normality and delusion.

“It is best to see 'schizophrenia' and 'normality' as two overlapping distributions, not two distinct states. Given this view, it may be that we have already found many of the key biological mechanisms [...]. Many of the most creative and spiritual individuals show certain apparently schizotaxic traits - unusual patterns of thought and behaviour, unorthodox beliefs, a tendency to have visions and hear voices. Where this does not become disorganizing, and where it can be expressed in a socially accepted form such as art or religion, this kind of thing is usually seen as one of humanity's great psychological assets, rather than as an impairment.”



A final note from William James' psychological exploration of religion is that mystical and religious experiences can support any religion12. It depends on culture and phenotype of the person. It can cause, or support, any form of a religion including asceticism, gnosticism, theism and such experiences can also cause insanity, genius or works of art. It would be truly enlightening if we could perform some neurological tests on some of the great religious figures in history.

BLUE

Religions arise as collections of popular beliefs, codified and institutionalized by the progression of Human organisation. Eventually, the changing beliefs of the masses out-evolve the more dogmatic, established religions.

The causes of the religious beliefs of Humankind are rooted in our psychology. Psychologists, sociologists, ethnographers and scientists tend to view religious beliefs as the result of mostly normal psychological systems being applied in the wrong context. A prime example is the way we get angry with cars and computers, and shout insults at them, or the way we tend to see patterns in random behaviour such as brownian motion (our 'hyperactive agent detection device'). Historical investigators such as William James have found that outstanding religious innovators and leaders have frequently been psychotic, suffered from various mental problems and nervous instability. Experiments on the Human brain have allowed us to discover many of the specific neuronal networks that can misfire to cause us to have 'religious' feelings and experiences.

Childhood fantasies, including an absence of death and the seemingly all-present, ever-caring and all-knowing parental figures who give us comfort, often become the basis for religious beliefs in adults. This hidden wishful-thinking mechanism feeds our ego (that someone cares about everything we do) and gives us consolation from death in the idea of an afterlife. Many strange things we 'experience' are cultural (therefore an aspect of upbringing), and once a scientific and critical understanding of them is attained, the beauty of the natural world displaces the appeal of the supernatural. Religion is self-inflicted delusion, illusion, smoke and mirrors.

There's about 34 idiots and 16 morons Ive meet in QLD, and now I've meet a new kind.....and its both:) Being a moron or an idiot can constitute a wide range categorizations which one can view, by just observing maturity in one's behavior. While most go about their everyday normal activities, some proceed to prove this point even while driving pass in there motor vehicles, which in turn amplifiers their levels of the definitions of the words.

Grow up!

BLUE

look every one....Lexi said there has to be no more talk about there's being no god. The Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc is wrong and all its believers plus all other religions are full of sh!t, and the only true thing to follow is Christianity.......GOT IT lexi.

Disregard all that Ive said.....because apparently Iam in the realms of cynicarcasm according to some:)

BLUE

I think time to leave the thread folks it was mostly very worthwhile

im noting a number of deletions
i had noted much of them..but thought they revealed more about the poster than the topic...

[well actually most of the rants have been off the topic..
but such is life]

and they havnt caused upset to me

but funnilly enough this has

quote]..'I think time to leave the thread folks
it was mostly very worthwhile
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 8 February 2011 7:40:18 AM'

end quote

now i have read the same words
from the same poster
on many threads

it seems when belly ..has done his thing
its topic over..

but belly your wrong

your comment belies the fact
that we havnt resolved the question yet

why is god...[is of course the wrong question]
because we arnt god..and cant know..

[it dont even sound like a proper question]

why is god...WHAT?

god is..[for many of us].FULLSTOP
what god is could have been a proper question

god is the logic that underpins natural law
[gives things weight...quality..definition..shape form
AND LIFE]

god may be known by his signs
his creation's...known by just knowing thyself

no bellies ..the topic isnt over
it hasnt even begun

but then again...my posts could be over
all it takes is one complaint
and im gone ...again

or this post could be deleted
never to be repeated

this topic isnt over
if you want to leave...leave

but just because you want it to be finished

dont mean its over

WHY is god...WHAT?

god is good ..because he gave us ALL..a life gift
with no obligation no cost, no must only a freewill gift

god is ...the good gift giver..[unlike satan-clause]

god/good..
serving even the most vile ...thier very lives
the living good ...sustaing all living ...all [being]

Why am I here? Is the most sacred question one can ask themself. Without a transcendent answer there is no purpose. The answer is because God is: I am. I ask what are my capabilities and my responsibilities for my being? Each must answer for themselves and live by that. For me I find no higher purpose that God revealed himself in Jesus Christ and his way, his truth and his life. I prefer to spend my time around happy fulfilled committed folk serving God for the betterment of the human society.

Hi Philo, may I direct you back to my opening remarks at the start of this post?
The statement:
"The answer is because God is: I am."
Is of course no answer at all. Ignoring the disparity in that one of you is tangible to all human senses, and the other is not, it does not address the question of 'why?' Even if we accept for the sake of argument the existence of your God, what is it's reason for creating you?
For the record, in the five years I have been haunting these pages, I have never put in a complaint about another user, nor have I ever asked that a comment be deleted. As I have stated many times, the greatest advantage of freedom of speech is that it makes it so much easier to identify the assholes.

Grim

>>As I have stated many times, the greatest advantage of freedom of speech is that it makes it so much easier to identify the assholes.<<

Very wise and advice I shall endeavour to take.

Why is God? I don't know he doesn't fit anywhere. For example if someone asked me "why a wolf?" I would say it is as part of the food chain in keeping deer and other animals from over population.

Why human beings? To create God. After all the ecosystem works very well without us.

As I have stated many times, the greatest advantage of freedom of speech is that it makes it so much easier to identify the assholes.
Posted by Grim, Tuesday, 8 February 2011 10:50:16 AM

Hummmmmm!
There is more than one box to put people in!
There is also the Fixed Dogma (Asshole?) box.
People living in glass houses throwing stones?

Hi Falcopilot, of which fixed dogma are you accusing me of?

I thought I would get a bit more seriously, back on topic!

Why is God?

Hummmm!

I find it a strange question!

Similes and Analogies sometimes help to put things into focus.

So I will ask the following:

Why Fairies?
Why Ghosts?
Why Santa?
Why the Easter Bunny?
Why UFO/s?
Why Imaginary Friends?
Why Goblins?
Why Elves?
Why Thor?
Why Zeus?
Why Hades?
Why Allah?
Why Peter Pan?
Why Tinkerbell?
Why Snow White?
Why Ignorance?
Why Delusions?
Why Brainwashing?

I now think I have a better understanding!

Hi Falcopilot, as with Philo, I can only direct you back to my original post.
Which part of "this is a 'what if' game" do you find so challenging?

Hi Falcopilot, of which fixed dogma are you accusing me of?
Posted by Grim, Tuesday, 8 February 2011 12:59:35 PM

Dear Grim
I appreciate your asking, so I can clarify.
I am NOT, repeat NOT accusing you of anything!
I have not made a judgement on you, and don't intend to.

I was simply just thinking of some of the posts in general, when I made that comment. As I did make mention of your post, I can see why you made the connection. It was my fault entirely, so I will be more careful how I word my posts in future.

To everyone in general though, I suggest that we all know in our heart of hearts, when we are being truly honest with ourselves, that we really do know what we are really like deep down, although we seldom want to go there.
So, everyone can find their own box/s to place themselves into, but only if they want to go there.

grim quote..[a classic truism]..'the greatest advantage of freedom of speech is that it makes it so much easier to identify the assholes...'

egsactly...thats why their posts dont [shouldnt] get deleted
further suspending id's means we have to learn their new id..before we rwealise its the same butt hole and their bias..best we know them from the get go...[i guess thats why i havnt changed my id]

anyhow..more quote"..Ignoring the disparity
in that one of you is tangible to all human senses,
and the other is not, it does not address the question of 'why?'

im presuming this id is the intangable
and me who writes for/under.. this id the tangable

but no ...oh
you mean to say god is intangable?

but so too are youtr thought ...and your beliefs
or morality or creativity..or ideas..they might appear to come via this tangable [presumably] being[me]..but none of you [but grayham have met me...[in tangable person]..ever]

for all you know..you can at best presume tangability
but in so saying tangability isnt a condition..but could be the perfect reason for the unseen[god]..creating us..the seen..[tangable]

more quote.."Even if we accept
for the sake of argument the existence of your God,
what is it's reason for creating you?"'

so me as a tangable being
can say to you [presumably another tangable being]
that we are here by a unseen cause...are here as the tangable of the untangable

that seems to work for me

[ps these words
became tangable from my untangable thought proces

they are [like god]..the unseen cause ..of what you now see before you]..go print them out...and you* now have made the untangable tangable too...

tangable is the reason why god made us

Some will finish up in a wooden box - the end for them. Others will never be boxed. their lives will continue on in those they have helped along the way.

Which part of "this is a 'what if' game" do you find so challenging?Posted by Grim, Tuesday, 8 February 2011 1:36:36 PM

What if games? No I don't particularly want to play that game!
With respect It smells a little bit like a fixation, and or compulsive type thing!
Like a dog with a bone!
The whole question is futile, which ever way you want to package the arguments!
The arguments, end up being circular, ie never ending, and pretty much a waste of time.
I can not understand why this topic has not withered away yet.

I make this point though, there is no universal point or purpose to life, people have been searching since time began, with a Nil Result. Best accept it, and get used to it!

Religion is only a band aid solution and/or crutch, to any problem and/or solution!
It was all invented by man, it's fictitious, this makes it a delusion.

The very very most important thing in life (apart from all the basics of life like health, food shelter etc etc), is HAPPINESS and CONTENTMENT. Everything else is secondary.

My personal view is you have to find your own personal inner peace and contentment.
Hopefully, without inventing your own, or adopting someone else's delusion/s to make it work. To be happy, it also helps to be normal and balanced, ie no weird beliefs.

I am confident that I have pretty well worked this out for myself. It's not hard, (then again maybe it is). It is however, mind bogglingly simple anyway.

End of Part One
Part Two to Follow

Part Two of Two

I will not give a detailed roadmap, but will give some clues:

1. Avoid being dishonest with yourself. Otherwise you are living a lie, or deluding yourself, and if you hate parts of yourself, then think positively, and make changes.

2. Don't expect happiness to be given to you prepackaged on a plate. You will be taken for a ride if you buy into this option.

3. Identify and accept the real truths. If there is no purpose or reason for life, accept that as a hard fact and move on. If it has not been found yet it probably will never be found, or at least not in your lifetime.

4. Accept what can't be changed (see item #3 above).

5. Appreciate what you have. Most people have no concept of just how much they truly have, and how really good life is for most of us, and probably won't realize until after it is gone. Read lyrics/chorus to Yellow Taxi, google it!

Finally some quotes with some elements of truth (and insights to them):

1. The Secret to Happiness is... Low Expectations
2. Mind over Matter: If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.
3. Rule One: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff!, Rule Two: There is Only Small Stuff.
4. Worrying is a waste of time, most things you worry about never happen!

Disclaimer:
If you don't believe or don't want to believe any, or all of the above, fine, then don't,. Because, non of these beliefs are COMPULSORY.
If you disagree with me, then fine, I will agree to disagree!
You are quite welcome to your own beliefs as appropriate.

And remember: Be Happy! :-)

causes of the religious beliefs of Humankind are rooted in our psychology. Psychologists, sociologists, ethnographers and scientists tend to view religious beliefs as the result of mostly normal psychological systems being applied in the wrong context.

..................................

I am totally happy to be a man of wrong context. I stumbled into a conversation and go did tripped some alert buttons and the boss spoke to me by email, oky feel good with that attitude, anyhow that makes a view added into how to define God and when God talks to us as a way to ....get involved in the discussion and be lucid toward objective rather than vain toward stupidity, not at all I love my stupidity...so humour will help. Often it is war, but humour is better as the help with lucid. This God question is caught up with humans in a big way. So them folk talk about the God. I laugh, get stressed out and angry or something. I think we are all God. If I get deleted, it will not be due to politics, it will not be due to insult or abuse it will be when I self-reflect and say something deriding of myself. A reflection, an image? One I can talk about? I am happy and can show you the skeletons, by speaking about God, a definition of wrong context. In matching my morals against others, am I wrong context?

Ha ha ha, I lose. You can call me Lyle and I decide on a deletion based on my name the day I turn up too drunk, yes? Delete me if I screw up with my grammar, yes please? I cannot help you with my eccentric, can confirm a persona being paid a disability pension based on the persona. So I drink grog at home, err in a cell where I have ...key. A place I can stay away from all other, I can put blame upon only me and stumble to bed, then awake brightened and feeling again like God, raise the fist and shake, screaming Yes, GOD, you and ME. Again today...

Religion is self-inflicted delusion, illusion, smoke and mirrors.

...........

Oh you are referring to the concept of getting the questions correct and later discovering the answers are not,

Chill out.

I make this point though, there is no universal point or purpose to life, people have been searching since time began, with a Nil Result. Best accept it, and get used to it!

Falco, those are your life journey experiences not other peoples ie your relationship with God, not many other peoples' relationships with God at this point in your life [journey].

ie your viewpoint will in all probability change at the end of your earth journey or stay.

Never say Never is the old wise proverb.

i hesitate to feed faco's ..latest illusions
but respect those ..he posted earlier..[some great points]

but essentially we are all god....
as much as a computer is all electicity

clearly computers work..because of electicity
but to say computers 'is' electicity is wrong

god sustains us to live
all then...'natural process of life..thats god doing what god does

jesus was to be called emmanuel
meaning god with us

this was meant to read
god with-in=us all..sustaining all life to live

just like electicity and programing makes our computers able to work
[even so computers need logic in ..to put logic out]

god is logus[logic]...
the logic that underpins the so called ..'natural laws'...

thats the clever deciete.. from athiests
claiming 'natural' selection ..to be a science methodology..

there is everything and nothing
in claiming 'natural'..to be a claim as for science method
that rebuts gods nurture ...doing it all ...'naturally'

its hard to concieve the good's of god..]
[the logic of light sustaining life into love]
sustaining even ...the most vile their life/living

talk about the least being the greatest
god the most serves even the least their very living

its hard to explain meta physics to children
..who need to believe in santa clause type delusions

surely anyone can see the clever deciete
that covers over jesus birth with a know it all judge
who knows if we been bad or good..

a faux fake god=head and then the ester rabbit that covers neatly over his death..that refutes the delusion of judgment and reserction days

that distorts
the reveal of jesus
of a non-judgmental personal good god..

[who dont judge anyone..]

in fact sustains the very lives
of those who decry and would deney him his very egsistance and everything he does ..even ..for ..the most vile..!

continue

talk about love and grace and mercy

would you do that
for those who dare treat you with the same dissdain?

only god ..loves *ALL of us

this life is about us
trying to reach such perfection
to try to do ..as we seen jesus do..

he was human..not god..
he said ;that ye see me do..YOU* will* do* greater..!*!

why is god?
so we all shall ..in time
strive ..to be ...*half as good ..as him

or even better..*
than the christ who showed us
..our own living greatness..

revealed to all
our very own..[god ...within us all*]
if that aint a why good of god..then what else?

fluke..chance
any serious study reveals it simply couldnt have been an accident..

EVERYTHING HAS A CAUSE
live with it
its certainly not worth dying over

god sustains EVERY living thing their life
no death glories god's good gift

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyrGDy5Wag8&feature=player_embedded
Just different flavours of the same old thing! methinks. Says it all, don't it!
And don't forget to enjoy the cool music!

Mother's little helpers.
http://www.benzo.org.uk/valium2.htm
Another solution!

It is so, so sad that so many people feel the need to air in a public forum by clear inference, that they are unable to cope with life without a religious crutch to help them through.
Then again, they are not Robinson Crusoe's, there's all those other poor sods that can't cope either, without the crutch of either alcohol and/or drugs!

I would hate to be in any of your heads, whereby things are so stuffed up in your mind, that you can't get through this seemingly cruel, cruel life without the help of a crutch of some sort or other!

A bit sad!

Then again, JMVHO.

Leo Sternbach - the Father of Mother's Little Helpers
http://www.benzo.org.uk/valium2.htm
It, might help you!

falcopilot,
Obviously you find this world "cruel cruel" and you claim to have no crutch. I find the world facinating and rewarding as I view the handiwork of creation and my role in it. I know which one I'll choose.

Obviously you need a crutch you poor thing! I trust things improve for you.

Obviously you find this world "cruel cruel"
Philo, Thursday, 10 February 2011 2:16:05 PM

Can't you see a bit of obvious tongue in cheek when you see it!
Ie It is only the sad cases that view the world as cruel !
and therefore it is only the sad cases that require a crutch !
..........................DO YOU GET IT NOW !........................................

I w i l l t r y a n d s p e l l t h i n g s o u t f o r y o u i n f u t u r e !

And as for your reference to ............handiwork of creation

Obviously all your comments are bound by religious dogma!

Wikipedia Quote regarding dogma: ................It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioner or believers.
and also ...............to any belief that is held stubbornly


In other words you posses a closed mind. C L O S E D M I N D !

A wise quote: Dogma is the enemy of intelligent discussion/debate.

Another wise quote: Dogma is the enemy of man, because it leads to unsound judgement, lack of discernment, lack of clear perception

Interpretation for Philo: Therefore any meaningfull (ie intelligent) discussion with you is totally impossible! I M P O S S I B L E !

I think the title of this thread.................

..........................WHY IS GOD?.............................

Is a like a magnet, to draw out all the hard core religious nutters out of the closet or cave !

failed plot ,..mr frail co pilot?

quote.."The very very most important thing in life (apart from all the basics of life like health, food shelter etc etc), is HAPPINESS and CONTENTMENT.

Everything else is secondary."

you dont seem happy

"My personal view
is you have to find your own personal inner peace and contentment."
so how is that working out for u?

"Hopefully, without inventing your own,
or adopting someone else's delusion/s to make it work. "

so those you tube links are yours?

"To be happy, it also helps to be normal
and balanced, ie no weird beliefs."

oh boy
athiests sure got that one on the cusp..

""I am confident
that I have pretty well worked this out for myself. "

this appears clear dear

"It's not hard, (then again maybe it is). "

facts to live by?

'It is however, mind bogglingly simple anyway.'

your a good advert
for doing it 'alone'

i guess for some...they just dont need anything
no drugs no booze no god no opinion...seeing no joke

if you cant tell
you got replied ...with phillos tongue in your cheek
your missing out on things ...that appear blooming obvious to the rest of us...lol

cheers brother
those who put their tongues in others cheks
gotta get used to others slipping the tongue right back at em..

i think a big thing
is being able to laugh at yourself

people take god too serious..he really has a great sense of hunour withy honour..[once you try to get to know him]...same with phillo..

so why did god
to allow us to see how funny we all really are

LOL

hey Falcopilot... I don't agree with you but I do tip my hat for your extreme creative communications skills within the typographical limits of this 350 word text box. WELL DONE!

Here is something for your consolation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76RrdwElnTU

Now..back to sorting you out :)

Here is where you sit in relation to divine truth.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, (1 Cor 2:14ff))

I know...IIIII knowwwww... "self referencing circular argument" :) it's nevertheless 'true'.

Finally....

"Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever".(Eccl 1.4)

Same with atheists and skeptics.. they come...they go.. but the Word of life abides forever.

But unless you decide to open your heart to the true Gospel of grace soon... keep up with the animated attacks.. they make for a very colorful contrast.

algores..quote

[sepperated so its concepts..
are easier to read..[comprehend]?

QUOTE

"The person without the Spirit"

without awareness ...fully
of what 'the spirit'..is doing ..for all life..

nor seek to know why..

"does not accept the things
..that come from the Spirit"

these things are such basics as..life
[gods good ..sustains all life]

love logic light [that sustains life]..
all light is of.. from god..

we are ..of the light
but never ...the light

mercy grace compassion
[yes ..even its oppisites]

works [by our deeds ..shall we be known]
and words [but talk is cheap...

and the big problem is ..we
who claim to know ..the good of god...
honour the good ..and the one god ..with our lips ..not our deeds

but those ..who dont look..
who dont seek god ..with-in us
or seek to know the god within us all
sustaining all living naturally ..from within

just cant see any reason ..to even try

see how even ..in nature..
even the beasts ..nurture their young

nurture that comes from god..good/love
reflected even in nature ..and the 'natural'

even to those living ..unknowingly
..in gods living loving life..gift

[gifted freely
..even to the most vile]

even to those ..who dont seek to know the spirit
or indeed ..revile de-cry even life itself

thus dont respect ..those who seek to know
how ...all comes from gods good

spirit

"..of God but considers them foolishness,
and cannot understand them ....

*because they are discerned
*only through the Spirit.'

and via consiously seeking to know
the goods of god better

and thus develop their own awareness of ..the unseen
of the spirit

as being the unseen cause..
of all that made ..seen ..heard ..felt etc

..ie created resultant from the unseeen ..*cause

who dont seek
nor find the true eternal cause
underpinning this short mortal life sentance
that sets us up for eternity..

where more of the same ..shall be given

the same as we chose
in this world

'15..The person with the Spirit
makes judgments about all things,.."

filterd ..by a loving spirit
grace/mercy/love etc

[ideally]..lo

''but such a person
...is not subject to ..merely human judgments,..(1 Cor 2:14ff))''

seeks to know
and ask why

and in time
gets to find out ..how
..as well as ..the why ..of it all

ok none ..on *earth
have figured it all out ..here/now ...yet
but that is to allows us all ..a truelly free choice
..in the matters of god/good/spirit/life/love etc

its all our choice
what we chose to live or love

..what we learn here
diectly applies ...there
[more shall be given]

[in our NEXT ..real eternal
..next life]

for now its enough
if we learn how to love god
by loving neighbour...

learn to not take ourselves ..or others ..too seriously...
[lets face it ..we know the church has got a lot wrong..

but the few things
it has got right..[are really right/
because they bear fruits that are good]

love god
by loving neighbour]
help the poor

mate just think
..if they began living it*

for now ..its enough to know
all good ..comes from god...god is love

love/grace mercy light life logic

even wild beasts ..*love their own
surely in this alone ..is a sign for any thinking person

and the vile...allows us to realise
god sustains ..EVEN the most vile ..their life ..too

thus HE ..dont judge ..even them..
not in this life ...nor the next

if god didnt want them
they wouldnt have lifes gifts

its about freewill..to find WHAT we chose to love..here now
god is the love ...life is about us finding that we love
finding that we chose to love ...in this life*

we all grow
this life ensure's
we all began ..from the same beginning

no bias
here we knew ..the vile was allowed their vile
and those who rejected the vile ..did insist CHOSE to love

thus god insists and egsists
is with-in ..and with-out

that we did to anyone ..anything
we do did ..to god

CHOSE to do
did it ..of our own freewill

look
to boil it all down

those who allready got the god is love thing
they..never need to come here

those spirits who need the proof..us
get one life sentance...here

so they learn the basics
of what those spirits ..who became angels/demons
allready knew...

[who thus didnt need life here
those who didnt need to get a mortal life sentance...here]
dont need to get here ..they are doing that they love allready

there is no other way ..to get us
..too slow ..or ..too low
to get it direct from the source

...[god is love]
some get it ..in the heavens..
some get it ..after* ..their life here

but we all
get it ..in the end

some need to have ..their life here
then go through the cleansing cycles ..in the next realms

but in the end
we all become angels
once we lose our mortal angles

some say the first ..shall be the last
even angels eventually get it...here

but what is words
we all need our own proof
thus ..we all get our own life..here

thats why god
made us

the real answer to life
is the question

not a number
[42] is the result
but dont reveal ..the way to the result

you can only get to love
via works.. via a life..by living it..
till we know..what we love ..know we chose

be-cause
EVERYTHING has a cause

if we dont seek to know..the cause of life
the uni-verse and everything..we never know the true cause..[god/good]

life is
why it is
is because of god good

from ..then on ..its
how can i become more good
like god..

the only good

but we first need to know
our roots are in the vile clay of mortal egsistance

but its fruits are in the heavens
with god and those others ..lovers of good
in the end we all get it..even the most vile..thats why life..[here]

I think we may have touched upon this before, Boaz, but I'd be interested in your views, if you care to express them.

>>Same with atheists and skeptics.. they come...they go.. but the Word of life abides forever.<<

What about Christians - forget about all the other religions for a moment - do they "abide forever"? Or do they come and go with the rest of us?

This is of course a question about the existence of an afterlife, upon which much of Christianity is based. Do you hold the view that you will continue to exist after your body ceases to? Or will you simply become, again, what you were before you were born?

I'm particularly interested in the concept of "living forever". Do you see this as a plus or a minus, where an afterlife is concerned?

Much of the "why is God" question can, I think, be explained by an answer to these questions.

Could you give it a shot?

let me have a go
re 'the Word of life abides forever.<<re athiests etc>>

pericules..quote..

'What about Christians..do they "abide forever"?
Or do they come and go with the rest of us?'

it might have something to do
with jesus making the word flesh ..by living it..by works

when they say the word of life..[words?]
its the body of words jesus left behind
describibng this works and words...that rightfully should abide in the living heart of those called in his name

but then again ..maybe i cant take this one
we all abide ..in our works..and gods throne is our heart

""This is of course a question
about the existence of an afterlife,
upon which much of Christianity is based.""

oh ok
but many other beliefs believe in the afterlife
i suspect inherantly even athiests suspect there is some thing after death..[on the energy cant be created..NOR destroyed principle]..

this leaves open the truth of a change of state..[which requires no religeon..nor the god..just that energy..CANT be destroyed..but can change state..[into alternate di-mentions..]

""Do you hold the view that you will continue to exist after your body ceases to?"'

absolutly
its more than a vieuw
the laws of science allow it to be a cetainty

"Or will you simply become, again,
what you were before you were born?"

largly...humans get one shot at this incarnation

but to get to this carnation..
we had to spiritually evolve...into this huh-man spirit
[many still reflect their last beastly incarnation's]

hey, one under god.

Your posts ramble on, and are very boring and tedious.
You need to get out a bit more, and get a life.

I googled Bible basher, and this is the first entry I found, at urbandictionary.com

A religious person who is obsessivily you could say, and insanely into his or her religion. They tend to 'bash on' about their religion and try to feed it to you. No disrespect to their religious beliefs, but knowing a bible basher can somtimes get sticky. They tend to be very protective over their religion, and know nearly everything about it. They will argue the point.

........................................

You certainly have a fixation or obsession with your religious beliefs, perhaps an obsessive-compulsive disorder!

And some educational Quotes for today:

.................... It's funny how people mistake being direct, with being offensive (Unkown) ................

.................... You can't teach an old dogma new tricks. (Dorothy Parker)................

.................... A follower is what transforms a known nut into a leader!.............
.....................Additional followers create a movement! (Unknown).....................

LOL

""I'm particularly interested in the concept of "living forever".

largly we do
but..if we loose our will to live..[eternally]
there are several options..one of which is reincarnation

even so its a complex thing to achieve
and indeed very rare
it needs the complete forgetting ..of all we were..last time

how it works...is those so vile..fall into lower and lower levels of hell..till finally they fall into the lowest pits of hell..there it is womb like...pitch black...and only our thoughts for company..

mostly they find ways to get out..usually involving fervant prayers
but if they stay there long enough...[remember the after life is eternal]..

in time...[generations in some cases]...they emerge from the dark pits...[and get smacked on the bum]...and are a new borne babe..[to wit born again..[reincarnated]..via a wormhole..that connects hell to heaven..[dont forget the womb]links this world to the next]

but like i said
this is only usually by those so vile
as to really reject every bit of the afterlife
to reject feeling..reject thinking...become nothing..less than nothing

become spiritually as big as a cell

that being said..you cant cheat the system
they KNOW..if there is any brain activity
no matter how adept the meditations

you would need literally be brain dead
as completly ignorant ..as a new born babe
with the though processs of a sperm germ

'Do you see this as a plus or a minus,
where an afterlife is concerned?'

who wants to be KNOWN and reviled..
as a hitler or a stalin ..for eternity?

there is no hiding..whatever we were..or are now

[in heaven or hell]
[all shall be revealed]
[nothing hiden that shall remain unknown]

its no secret..but there there are no secrets

Give it rest!
Boring!

oh dear waco-pilot
you make spurilous claims

i have no religeon
[i believe in god..not religeon]

the stuff im posting you mostly wont find in the bible
yes there are bible quotes ..but also many other quotes from many other holy texts

to say im bible bashing..needs evidence that im quoting the bible

anyhow you are good for a laugh
im laughing at you ..as well as with you

i came to post what was posted
im giving it a rest..because i said what i said

and now have run ouit of things i want to say

you talk about getting a life...lol
i posted the first post ..at 2:37:52 PM
you posted yours at ..2:39:08 PM

[1 minute 56 seconds later]

meaning you pre wrote your reply
[no one can write revieve notification...edit,post
in just under 2 minutes]..lol..get a life...lol

have you been waiting
all this time...lol

get a life son
the sun is shining
find someone to love

now you have done your bit..[bite]..lol
go out and have some fun ..son

couldnt read the rest
of your long rambeling cut/paste

but if i get time will glance at it
and have a giggle..thinking about how much it bugs you

lol
why did god create ...*you
just for the fun of it

Ok, then your just a plain old god botherer!
I stand corrected!
Still boring!