I watched the program with intense interest, as I am an Australian with Chinese heritage. The program is visually sophisticated and well made overall.

However, I have found the selection of content and the ideology behind the story less agreeable. They are just too one-sided, and only represent a narrow view of a small part of the Australian community, which, I am afraid, would damage the credibility of the program.

The critical view on the White Australia Police is undoubtedly well founded, but over banging it by devoting a great part of the episode is overkill, which sunk the program into an all too familiar left-wing ranting that destroyed any sense of balance in representing a nation’s history.

For example, the establishment of Australia Commonwealth was a conscious commitment to build a progressive, democratic, and equal society. We as audience want to see how it was conceived, and how it was implemented, also, whom were the people making the most contributions, even with the obvious defects such as the White Australia Police.

You simply couldn’t not build anything slightly resemble the Australia society just by imposing the WAP! There must be something more than that! What are they? The program simply ignores any of them: those ordinary men and women who set up businesses through the spirit of free enterprise, those pioneers who opened up the great interior for new opportunities, those politicians and intellectuals who advanced the cause of an ever fair and decent society, and much more.

The way in which the program represents the Australian history will inevitably give the following impression: Australia by and large is a conservative and reactive, or even racist society. It only changes under pressures without. In other words, the reason why Australia has become a country as we know today is that she has done what she was forced to do, rather than what she wanted to do. The audience will see in future episodes how Australia bowed to pressure within and without to introduce and accept the Southern Europeans, the War brides from Japan, the influx of Vietnam boat people.

Peng welcome afraid I am not in favor of any white Australia policy past or present.
I am of convict stock and white.
But we are not the people who once supported that policy.
Your people like migration from every country have helped build this country.
We Australians are no more or less racist than any other race.
And like any race have our fair share of lunatic fringe people.
Now after all that good work I just must destroy my image.
Honesty demands I say what I think.
Far too many Muslims are on arrival, noting the differences not the things we cam find common ground in.
I would gladly look for migrants from other places.
Bigoted? if so let it be that way, but my view is shared by many.
A debate on a PAC yesterday was a warning, Bob Carr was debating, along with others a young Muslim, the refusal to budge, to see Australians had a right to a view was there.
So if you must,put me in the bin as xenophobic but the migration debate/regugees would be less heated if certain groups did not isolate them selves.

Thanks Billy.
Cannot agree more with you.
the moderator of the forum rejected the second part of my post, here it is: (I hope Australia is not China where freedom of speech is non-existent)

It is simply not true, at least not entirely true. The basic truth is that we, as migrants, come to Australia because we admire the country for what it is, with all its shortcomings and flaws. We come here not to make it like China, or like any other country. We come here to live like Australians, not to live as we did in our old land, in spite of our lingering feelings towards our places of origin.

Let’s be very clear here: it was not our choice to be born as Chinese, Italians, or Vietnamese, but to be an Australian is our conscious decision, and the reason is simple: it is better to be an Australian! We are all ABCs: Australian By Choice! We appreciate what Australia stands for, and we understand, though not necessarily agree with, the strong inclination among the white population to preserve their own cultural, national, even racial identity. The whites, just as any race, are entitled to defend what is legitimately theirs, as long as they don't not violate other people's rights.

While the spirit of self-criticism is always a vital part of an open society, we should not lose our sense of balance in representing our history.

By the way, when Australia becomes a muslim country, I have to go to New Zealand, if that country is still as it is now.

Peng:

I also watched the program however I got a totally different view of it than you did. To me it seemed that all that was being shown was
the historical record leading to the White Australia Policy and some examples the policy has had on non-white, non-Anglo inhabitants of this country. Be aware that its only the first part of a three-part series,and lets look forward to see the further development before we pass judgement. It's only a brief attempt to bring history to present-day generations and recent immigrants, who may not be aware of the past.It just might encourage those who are interested to learn more to go to our libraries and read up on the details - getting a fuller picture which they might appreciate. Every group that has come to Australia has faced a lot of intolerance however eventually most groups do integrate as effectively as all the other groups have done.
Muslims have been part and parcel of this country for decades - problems arise usually as a result of extremists within any given group and its wrong to tarnish others because of that, be they white,
black, brown or yellow.

I take great interest in reactions to this series.

I watched it and thoroughly enjoyed it, though my own immigration came at a period much later than that covered so far. I think the episode in question did focus quite heavily on our inherent historical racism, but put a new spin on it. It's good to see coverage of the 'social engineering' aspect of the development of Australia as a nation, as this is often downplayed. The people behind the scheme(s) weren't your regional rednecks, opposed to all change and all others. They were progressive intellectuals and they genuinely believed that they were building the purest, greatest nation in the world. I think the show emphasised that quite well, highlighting the different - largely extinct - form of racial prejudice that existed back then.

I was also impressed with their choice of interview subjects. Rather than firebrands and angry people screaming 'racism' and 'prejudice', they were quite stoic. They acknowledged the harshness of our old policies, but didn't seem to call for Australians to feel guilty about our past administrations' misdeeds.

I'll be looking forward to the next two episodes.

I too really enjoyed the program Otokonoko.

I really feel that it encapsulated exactly how it was back in the first half of the 20th century here in Australia.
A truly fascinating multicultural history of our great country :)

Peng, I was interested in your comments right up to the little gem:
"By the way, when Australia becomes a muslim country, I have to go to New Zealand, if that country is still as it is now."

How would you have felt when resident Australians, back in the early days of the 20th century, said the same thing about Chinese immigrants coming to this country?

We are multicultural in this country- and that includes Muslims.

Here Peng is my chance to duck and weave to say other than what I Think.
To chase popularity at the expense of truth.
Far more do just that, say something they do not believe for peace sake, spineless in my view.
SeE I like every contributor to this thread.
Know my Friend Lexi is concerned about my views, both my unhappiness with Muslim migration.
And my truly held view my party, ALP is in need of leadership direction, and the flogging it will get in NSW in two months.
I would willingly give up my freedoms to live in one world.
One people, one direction, it would hurt massively but after two generations we would be better for it.
I however intend to go close to offending my friends here,maybe Graham too, but truth is worth while still isn't it?
Continued.

I was born in the year the second world war ended.
The son of poor parents my mum came from a family of 13.
Her sisters had 13 in one case and mum had 16, only 8 lived to grow up.
As you cam imagine that family tree is a forest.
People from Holland Germany China Italy Scotland England more wed into my family.
A raw country kid I at age 16 lived away from home for work, with migrants from all these country's and more.
Learned to live eat and so much more from them.
I love multi culturism.
Do you know that kid trying to learn Italian, being the only non Italian in the crew was reminded, Belly this is your country make them learn I did they must.
Only an idiot would think every Muslim is a problem, I am no idiot.
But look at the impacts of say Catholic religion on me, my party is near personal property of that Church,one NOTORIOUS head warning his parliamentarians they MUST follow church policy's.
Look, give it thought please, at the level of control in the Islamic religion.
See the control based on , like any religion, the belief we bought from the middle ages .
Humanity can be one, if we have the courage to stand for our beliefs and stop hiding our concerns in that awful name political correctness.
Stop hiding the worst or for that matter the best in Muslim culture but let honest comment and concerns be seen not as bigotry
I stand firm, this country is importing problems.
The post about social engineering is the best I ever saw on this subject.
I feel Australia is part of the silly idea the next few generations will breed out a problem.
Address our concerns, the concerns of middle Australia about growing attempts to change us to fit in better with another minority,we do you know look at Christmas for a start, PC is choking us,an awful word an awful out come for humanity and far from correct.

Like Peng, I am hoping the series opens up a little.

I like Henry Reynolds and his perspective, but it would be good to get another voice there, even if it was that nitwit Keith Coalscuttle, the fake historian, or Andy Bolt, or Christopher Pearson, giving us the lowdown on "how Australia is and always has been a Christian country built on a Judeo -Christian basis."

And it is just those sort of spurious claims that really need to be challenged through a show like this.

I also hope they move onto the 'other' side of the 'workers paradise' which so far has only painted us as racist bigots.

The other side goes back to how white people got here, and the total injustice of the English justice system, which has to touch on the class system, and the emerging working class as a result of the industrial revolution.

Such as the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the rise of the AWU and union movement, the creation of the ALP in response to the attempts to create a squatocracy of middleclass nongs, which is what the nation has ended up as.

So, a good topic but it needs to extend a great deal from episode 1.

We are multicultural in this country- and that includes Muslims.
suzeonline,
you'd be hard-pressed to find all that many who are dead against multiculturalism just for being against it. What the average (50%) thinking Australian is objecting to are those fanatics among the immigrants of the invasion by stealth army who want to change this country. I have yet to see chinese, german, italian, greek etc immigrants who have such an agenda. Why ? Because if they had that intention they would have done it by now. I really believe that the biggest threat to this country is lurking within the stupidity of 50% of the population left of mainstream.

TBC I like and agree with your post.
I feel about half my age and try to see the world as it is not once was.
Bowral, brings to mind for me infamy, Dad and his parents came from there, apparently after a short stay on the far south coast.
Unfortunately he took us back there, England in the bush in the mid 1950,s
You actually had to remove your hat to talk to third generation Australians who thought of England as home.
We can not convict those fools by using todays standards, I do think it must be about the same now,but only for a few.
Miners racism against Chinese happened but other times other people.
I refuse to spend my life saying sorry for others past acts.
I do not denie them, would never support them, but think we are far better than that now.
By the way Bowral gained no relief from me when a former Prime Minster turned it in to a fort trying to fight terrorism that never existed.
Anada Marga or our own , never know will we.

but think we are far better than that now.
Belly,
With the amount of hindsight available to us nowadays we're a long way from catching up with our forebears' foresight.
It beggars belief how shortsighted today's society is. Everyone's against racism & bigotry but without fail when push comes to shove all the idealism goes out the window & the formerly accused are being called upon for help. Just you wait.

Billy, your post hits me like a bell vibrating in my chest.

Only when nearly half of my life past me by that I started to realize it is OK to say what you see, what you feel, and what you want. All my life I was subjected to brainwash either by the Communists or by "liberal and progressive" intellectuals. I think that is enough.

Someone try to teach me to be tolerant, and not to say anything offending the muslims. They ask me what would I feel if someone say the same thing against the Chinese.

Here is my answer. If someone say something against the Chinese, fine, let them state their reasons. If what they have said is reasonable, for instance, the Chinese medicine leads to population decline or even extinction of many wild lives, I will say, good on them for speaking of the truth! If someone say that the Chinese are repulsive, "I hate them!" I shall commend the expression of true feelings, and advise them not to have to anything to do with the Chinese. If someone advocate the extermination of the Chinese, I shall watch how he puts his money where his mouth is with great interest.

It is the truth that matters, not ethnicity.

And the truth is that only muslim migrants have a religious mission, if they are willing to follow it, to convert all the infidels. No any other migrants have the same religious mission to make Australia Jewish, Buddhist, or, any other type of ist or ish.

In any case, we are not going to tolerate any of those ideology, violent and fanatic ideology. I am also not going to believe all cultures are compatible, equal, and admirable.

In any case, we are not going to tolerate any of those ideology, violent and fanatic ideology. I am also not going to believe all cultures are compatible, equal, and admirable.
Peng,
welcome to my circle of thinking. If only there was a way to de-indoctrinate the educated left this would be a really great country to live in rather than just for those who get handsome reward for no effort.. We need to open their eyes to stop placing people into categories. That's socialist control freak mentality.

Peng thanks,and no offense my name is Bell, hence Belly, however it intrigues me, my dads name was Bill, and folk who never knew him call me Bill?
Now hands up I am from just left of center, not ashamed of it.
But you are quite right, if we could freely debate it I truly think what is in this day called racism can be traced to differences including religion.
I lived for a year in Summer Hill in Sydney.
A home for third generation Chinese Australians, not once did we present a problem to each other.
I will continue to avoid being well liked by claiming opinions I in truth reject.
Headline in todays on line papers say in Pakistan ,right now, crowds have gathered to celebrate the murder of a minister who wanted to down grade laws calling for death for? blasphemy!
We humans should celebrate our different rejoice in our sameness and stop forever following Gods that divide us.
That for some, not just on the left bigotry is alive in the right,puts me in the bad person basket.

In a recent trip to Sydney, I realised how ill-equipped I am to talk about multiculturalism. I live in Townsville, where we are essentially a bicultural society - indigenous and white. Furthermore, I teach in a Catholic school, so the people I see on a day-to-day basis tend to be of either Italian or Irish stock (with a few others thrown in for good measure). Essentially, though, if I was to ask them what nationality they are, almost without exception they would say "Australian".

A former Sydneysider, I spent a week in Sydney for the first time in over a decade (a fleeting 48 hour trip two years ago hardly counts). At first, I was alarmed by the ethnic diversity. It seemed that overhearing a conversation in English - and especially one with an Australian accent - was a rare treat.

As a visitor, this was part of the charm of Sydney, but I'll admit I was glad to get back to the familiarity that is Townsville. I have no idea what it is like to live in that ethnic mix, to do business with it or to be educated in it. It is all well and good to praise ethnic diversity, but those of us (I may be alone here - I don't speak for anyone else) who have no day-to-day experience of it should probably keep our mouths shut and let those who live with such diversity decide for themselves what is best to do.

For anyone acquainted with SBS there’s very little new in the latest documentary: Immigration Nation.

A different presentational style, perhaps, but beneath the veneer it’s a re-hash of the same old SBS party-line :
--- Oz “as a shining white outpost on the fringe of (a monolithic) Asia”, artificially sustained by a racist White Australia Policy(WAP).
--- Migrants struggling against the cruel anglo establishment.

It’s all good stuff for the guilt industry, and already some of the usual suspects are tapping into it to reinvigorate their unpopular open-borders campaign, with comments like “The desperate men, women and child floundering in the wild seas (off Christmas island) could have been our own ancestors”

But , at the heart of this documentary’s account of history is a deceit: that Australia’s WAP was a peculiar creation of anglo Australia –the reality is starkly different.

The polices enshrined in the WAP were little different to many THAT WERE, AND STILL ARE, policy in our region:
China, for a thousand years saw itself as the pure, middle kingdom surrounded by foreign devils, it wanted no part of.
Malaysia, Mahathir used to crow he wanted to grow population manyfold –but the plan never included the import of foreigners ( nor the fostering of its Chinese/Indian minorities)
Japan, has long had an anti-immigration , anti-foreigner policy and practice.
Singapore, cherry picks the highly skilled but tells refugees it has no room.
Ditto, Indonesia, Vietnam and Brunei.
It’s not a case of WAP-era Australia being out of step , but WAP-era Australia being in step with regional norms.

And to compound this deceit, one (SBS) commentator even suggests that Japanese militarism was in part a reaction to the WAP!
One wonders if the presenters have undertaken even an elementary study of regional history.

But, who could blame SBS it’s only protecting its market niche. Its very survival may depend on the continued influx of migrants.
And the more tribalism and guilt, it can engender : “my grand mother was badly done by” “Australia is the pariah nation of Asia” , the easier for SBS to market itself .

Most human groups tend to display ethnocentrism, the tendency to judge other cultures by the standards of one's own. Some measure of ethnocentrism is almost unavoidable in any racial or ethnic group. To many people, it is self-evident that their own norms, religion, attitudes, values, and cultural practices are right and proper, while those of other groups may seem inappropriate, peculiar, bizarre, or even immoral. Within limits, such ethnocentrism can be functional for the group's survival, for these atitudes ensure its members' solidarity and cohesion. People who believe that their group and its way of life are "best" will have faith and confidence in their own cultural tradition, will discourage penetration by outsiders, and will unite to work for their common goals. The difficulty is, of course, that under certain conditions, ethnocentric attitudes can lead to the exploitation and oppression of other groups. This can change however - hostilities may subside if the subordinate group is able to gain greater equality with the dominant group. The history of this country supports this view, the strong hostilities that originally existed against the early immigrants gradually lessened as the groups gained entry to the broad Australian middle-class where they were seen as equals rather than rivals.

What Lexi said makes great sense and is truthful.

SBS Immigration Nation tries to have it both ways: on the one hand, it assumes that the Whites are the stronger race imposing their idea and will to the weaker races such as the Chinese, which was unfair and cruel; on the other hand, it acknowledges that the economic power displayed by the Chinese posed a threat to the living standard of the Whites, which prompted the WAP.

The reality was that the Whites didn't want to live their lives with the same standards endured by the Chinese, and they didn't want the Chinese, or any other race, to undermined their quality of life. It was true then, and it is still true today. I cannot see anything wrong with it. It hardly can be labeled as racist.

I find what Lexi said enlightening. If a certain trait is universal and part of human nature, that trait cannot be dismissed as flaw or defect. For example, all men excrete. Be it as disgusting as it is, none will say that the trait is a defect of human nature, unless he can find someone who have Shiitake mushrooms coming out of their bottom end every time they excrete. Only when someone excrete in an antisocial fashion, we would condemn his behaviour.

The inclination of self-preservation shown by any race, people, nation, and tribal is no fault at all, as long as they don't impose what they prefer onto others. All races, peoples, and nations prefer their own kind, love their own languages, fashions, and food, and appreciate their own social mores. Nothing is wrong with that, as long as they don't force others to do the same.

Peng, Lexi may correct me, I don't think you quite understood what she was trying to say.

Many years ago, before, during and after world war two, many Australians were afraid of Asian/Chinese people in general
-considering them 'a yellow peril' for spreading the 'threat' of communism, and yes they thought they were a threat to the Australian way of life.

As time went on, most Australians came to accept these people living in Australia, even though they generally still keep to their own ethnic groups for family and social reasons.

Most people in this country actually relish the wonderful contributions to our society from the Chinese community now - especially their excellent cuisine :)

So why can't we also consider what the Muslim immigrants can bring to Australia, rather than being afraid of these new people?

AAH Well, maybe I am getting old and grumpy, but while Lexi is quite right, we do divide by such means.
I can not remember, maybe its age, one single Italian, Yugoslavian, Greek, I worked with all, telling me how to worship.
I can not remember not having Christmas decorations in case it offended them.
None [many did denigrate Australian womens fashion] called our females dead meat.
No storys come to me of stoning deaths in those country's, of young people being promised slaves in the after life to murder.
I am sailing in dangerous waters, could be sent to the sin bin see I am saying what so very many Australians are,previous migrations are different.
Today we all are proud of generations of great Australians, Peng. Lexi are just two in reality many more post here who share those roots.
I am not comparing races, religion is the difference here, in many cases that religion sees kids returned to country's like Pakistan for an education in fact aimed at devision not unity.
It is easy to say I am racist /silly/ but not to hide the truth we must see from within the Muslim community a willingness to contain those who from within that religion farm hatred.

Well, suzeonline, enlighten me with all the unique and constructive contributions made by immigrants who follow that particular religion!

Let me start with one: Islamic banking system, charging no interest. Haven't you switched your mortgage yet? (that is religion related, and unique, maybe?)

-considering them 'a yellow peril' for spreading the 'threat' of communism, and yes they thought they were a threat to the Australian way of life.

suzeonline,
it strikes me that you're the one who doesn't seem to grasp things in context. You are employing the achetypical mentality peculiar to idealistic academia when reacting to posts by normal people. Exactly what do you mean by "considering them, thought they were". Have you any inkling at all what the people of other countries were thinking when the subject of Australia came up ? You don't know & neither do I. What I do know is that those fears were well founded. I say this because I now have the evidence of people invading this country in droves & at great risk & detriment to all. Do you really believe our forebears were that wrong ?

Interesting... "I say this because I now have the evidence of people invading this country in droves & at great risk & detriment to all."

Individual is an Indigenous person?

Oh no, probably not.

That was no invasion, that was legitimate settlement wasn't it Individual?

The people who were (not) invaded didn't have any rights to the land in which they lived, did they?

The Blue Cross,
fyi. This will really churn your already churned insides. I have actually been told by indigenous Australians (I'm indigenous too but not to Australia) that they appreciated the work I have done in communities over several decades.
I have also had them say to me how utterly disgusted they are with some of their own political grand-standers.

As for,
The people who were (not) invaded didn't have any rights to the land in which they lived, did they?
No more or less then those who were sentenced to here by the 1800's equivalent of you. Besides, these invaders came to a land with no infrastructure whatsoever. The ones I'm referring to as Stealth invaders are those who only got interested once this joint was well established & coming here didn't involve having to endure hardship. S'ppose you're of that stock ?

How many rights do the indigenous Australians not have nowadays ? I'm sure there are some but I'd like you to list them.

Oh individual, what a shock! Another one.

You help people? Why bother with your name then?

And why bother to claim your own 'indigenous' status? Odd behaviour.

I had no idea you came here direct from a court from the 19th century. You must be quite old by now?

Unlike you, I came from no court delivered sentence but was a modern economic refugee seeking a chance of a job, or two. The classic migrant story, boring, but that's it.

And I got many, building the infrastructure the nation needed.

There wasn't enough of it, and the Australians already here were too lazy to work in the far flung areas that we far more enterprising people were happy to go to.

Now, it really is upon you to identify these people you describe as 'Stealth invaders', "The ones I'm referring to as Stealth invaders are those who only got interested once this joint was well established & coming here didn't involve having to endure hardship."

Are these people the southern Europeans of the Chifley 'two Wongs don't make a white' era the ones you fear and resent?

Or maybe those from Fraser's Vietnam refugees policies?

Are they the Abbott's 'boat people'?

Are they the British stock who came on assisted passages?

Maybe the hordes of Kiwi Maori that come here, to fill the jobs Aussies refuse to do in shearing sheds and country towns?

Just who are these 'Stealth invaders' you so deeply resent, I wonder

Below is a link to an article outlining the views of a former Hawke Government Minister, which many may find interesting.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/not-all-cultures-are-good/story-e6frg73o-1225764575810

Susieonline,
I dissagree that we are a multicultural nation.

We are a multiracial country but monocultural, with an acceptance and tolerance for some aspects of other cultures. Our Governance, laws and judicery, education, defence, police, local gogernment, finance and social standards are all based on the British model.

These are the foundations of our culture and there are many aspects of other cultures that we do not accept. For example eating dog meat, dolphins, whale meat, horse meat, spiders and other culinary treats. We also shy away from incest, under age sex, FGM, carry firearms and honour killings, to name just a few. In fact there is no other culture that is the same as ours or we accept in total.

The problem with Muslams is that they do not adjust their culture to fit into ours, but seek to impose their cultural norms on us, like modest dress and polygamy. It seems they are not prepared to compromise in any way. There are a few others like the Croats and Serbs the insist in keeping their long held hatreds of others and fight each other.

I believe that our immigration policy should discriminate against those groups that refuse to integrate and cause us social problems. After all it is our country and about 90% of immigrants do integrate quite well.

TBC,
you answer a question with a question. Does that mean you haven't got an answer ?
"you fear & resent ?"
how did you come to that conclusion ? Don't you comprehend the debate ?
fyi those whom you in parrot fashion call Wongs built the infrastructure you feel so entitled to make full use of now but non-thinkingly condemn those who had the foresight to instigate this infrastructure.
Just don't forget that those who condemn those who have foresight shows their lack of conviction to help make this country a good place to live in. Just consider what Banjo says in his post re the foundations of the culture in this country.

Banjo, not what you were focussing on, by relevant anyway.

Cohen says "that not only should we be a society of a hundred cultures but it is the government's duty, nay obligation, to see that we remain permanently culturally divided. If some groups wish to remain separate from mainstream Australia, then that is their choice, but they should not expect governments to aid and abet those divisions".

Quite so, so it is a shame that:

a) we have any religious schools to encourage division in education and later in the broader community

b) that the 1880s concept of 'secular public education' is now completely dismantled

c) that my Morris dancing skills are seen as being of lesser value than African drumming, or Etruscan vase music, or Latvian folk dancing and so on, just because it is British, nay, English.

And, whatever happened to the school Maypole?

Gone, subsumed by tribal dancing and Haka's on the one hand and over zealous evangelicals who objected to the Pagan roots of this fine and beautiful dancing, attached to the Harvest Festival, another Pagan event they hate with pleasure.

I'm with the 'Jewish boy' on this.

individual

Allow me a quote please, 'I do wish you'd learn some poetry, your ignorance cramps my conversation'.

I think your previous question concerning the 'missing rights' of Indigenous people might be best answered by one of them, it is not something that I have thought about, and it was you who raised it, not me.

You avoid a question, by avoiding a question, that you perhaps need to respond to, to make your own argument better understood by all, rather than because I ask you to answer it.

Now, history, old chum, is a handy bucket to dip into.

Arty Calwell, Chifley's immigration guru famously said, "two Wongs do not make a White".

Read a snippet on Arty on Wikiwhatsit here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Calwell

"Calwell's remark in Parliament in 1947 that "Two Wongs don't make a White" is widely quoted. The remark was intended as a joke, being a reference to a Chinese resident called Wong who was wrongly threatened with deportation, and a Liberal MP, Sir Thomas White."

The use of a capital W is crucial, and the context of course, taking this from a racist slur to the joke Calwell intended, but never mind that, like Horne's now infamous 'Lucky Country', the Wong remark has a life of it's own now.

I thought you'd be sufficiently vintaged to know of it, at least from your school history lessons, apparently not.

Banjo, you have said what I intended to say, and said it so well. Thanks.

I am unable to understand what Blue Cross is suggesting, why is what Banjo said irrelevant?

Why couldn't Blue Cross state his/her belief or reasons in a straight forward way?

Why does this individual sound so negative and resentful to others who don't agree with him/her?

The reason for argument is to seek truth, not to putting down others, to puff one up. Let's reason together.

Our original point is that the WAP should be understood in its historical context, not merely condemning it, and, one should present Australian immigration history in a balanced and informing way, rather than overly focusing on one issue and one negative aspect. Are those points correct? If not, why not?

No personal attack, please, we are Australians, seriously, which means we can, and should reason in a rational way.

And I am still waiting for answers from Suzeonline about the unique contributions made by Muslim immigrants to this country. I have already listed one, just to get you started, and, here is another one: female swim suits, from head to toe. Well, one may argue that the design existed long ago. However, in terms of application, muslims are the first to use diving suits as female swim suits, and it reduces the development of skin cancer. Correct me if I am wrong.

Well, suzeonline, if I, a man who resents muslim immigration, can come up with evidences that give credit to them, you are the one who embrace the coming of those population, and surely you cannot be ignorant on the benefit of their arrival!

Peng, I didn't say that what Banjo said was 'irrelevant' at all.

I was adding another dimension to what Banjo was saying through the Barry Cohen article, and said, unfortunately with a typo in it, "Banjo, not what you were focussing on, by ['by' should have been 'but'] relevant anyway."

So, what I was injecting was not what Banjo was actually highlighting, but it is still 'relevant' to the overall situation discussed, the atomisation of our community.

Please try rereading that post, there is nothing hard to understand in it.

Thanks, Blue Cross, for your clarification. Now I can see that you were adding new aspects of what Benjo has said.

Atomization, that is a good word. Are you implying that the society is fragmented? rather than united as one? I thought individualism is the backbone of a society like ours.

I have had a good fortune to have lived in societies both prevailed by collectivism and individualism. Ideally, man should find a balance between the two, but, hey, when is the man going to be born? Take it from me, individualism is the better one of the two, if there is no balance to be found.

By the way, I am still waiting for suzeonline's reply, or anyone who might be able to help.

Peng:

If you were to google, "Muslim Contributions to Australia," you'd find quite a few websites that would provide you with the information you're seeking - also - there are many histories of the Muslim Community in this country available from your local library - and it
is interesting reading - you can also pay a visit to the "Immigration Museum" in Melbourne and see their exhibit on the "Afghan Cameleers,"
and how vital they were, these camel drivers from the India sub-continent who were so vital in the early exploration of the Australian continent and the establishment of service links. Do a bit of your own research - or ask a librarian for help.

One of the most fascinating aspects of our species is the extraordinary physical and cultural diversity of its members. Yet this diversity is often a source of conflict and inequality, because human relationships are all too often shaped by the differences rather than the similarities between groups. Prejudice and discrimination are found in any situation of hostility and inequality between racial and ethnic groups. Prejudice is an irrational, inflexible, attitude toward an entire category of people. (The word literally means "prejudged.") The key feature of prejudice is that it is always rooted in generalizations and so ignores the differences among individuals. Therefore, someone who is prejudiced against Asians, or Arabs, or Jews, will tend to have a negative attitude toward any individual Asian, Arab, or Jew, in the belief that all Asians, Arabs, and Jews share the same supposed traits. People tend to think in terms of general categories, if only to enable them to make sense of the world by simplifying its complexity. People often say, "Do you believe Australia should be a multi-racial society?" The reply is - "It doesn't matter what any of us believe, it's what Australia IS, which is a society of tremendous diversity."

TBC,
Arty Calwell may have said that, I can't do anything about that 50 years on. Just as I can't do anything about the black power calls to kill whites or fanatic muslims calls to kill all infidels.
So, if you're so keen to show up some whitie saying something which 50 years later is considered racist then you should not fail to quote contempory non-whites' calls to kill whites which btw. is more than just racist.

individual, there is no 'Arty may have said that', he did.

Anyway, you avoid your answer to this,

"Now, it really is upon you to identify these people you describe as 'Stealth invaders', "The ones I'm referring to as Stealth invaders are those who only got interested once this joint was well established & coming here didn't involve having to endure hardship."

We're all agog with anticipation and excitement waiting for your detailed response.

Dear Peng, thanks so much for waiting anxiously for my arrival back to this forum tonight!
I work full time Peng, and just arrived home - so don't stress :)

Lexi has kindly answered your probing question of how some Muslims have contributed to our society.

I will print just one of the many examples on that site.

This one's about the late Muslim Australian ,John Ilhan:

"Having amassed over $300 million by the young age of 40, John Ilhan became inspired to become a philanthropist, and contribute a large percentage of his earnings to charity. Before his death at the age of 42 in October of 2007, he was recognized as one of the country's most generous philanthropists, having had provided regular donations to a wide range of charitable organizations.[4]

Ilhan was able to make these donations through his self-established Ilhan Food Allergy Foundation. The Foundation was established primarily from Ilhan's $1 million donation towards it, and was inspired by his daughter's severe allergy to peanuts.[4]

During his lifetime, the Charity's that the Ilhan Food Allergy Foundation was able to contribute towards include: the Richmond Football Club, Kids Under Cover, The Alfred Hospital Department of Allergy, Immunology and Respiratory Medicine, and Murdoch Children's Research Institute Allergy and Immune Disorders Research Group Department of Allergy and Immunology.[5] [6"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ilhan

Impressive indeed?
I would humbly suggest Peng, that you have fallen into the old trap of painting all Muslims with the same brush.
There are many Australians of all races and religions who are good and bad in our society.

1)Lexi
a) “Most human groups tend to display ethnocentrism” In that case Immigration Nation is built around a lie. Its lead themes being,
not just that racial selectivity is wrong –but, that, the WAP was a peculiarly white Australian construct.—and its adoption was an affront to our Asian neighbours.
b) “This can change however - hostilities may subside if the subordinate group is able to gain greater equality with the dominant group.”
Unfortunately, we have a new paradigm in modern multicultural Australia . If there’s a disparity between group A & Group B there is a bureaucracy of social researchers who will tell you it could only be due to discrimination –our fault, not theirs! So groups can chose not to strive or adapt, but nevertheless prosper by nurturing the image that they are perpetual victims, which tends to increase mutual suspicions and hostility rather then diminish it.

2)Suzeonline
a) “why can't we also consider what the …immigrants can bring to Australia, rather than being afraid of these new people?”
I’d suggest that anyone who doesn’t have a healthy dose of concerned about what Muslim immigrants might bring is either poorly informed about world events, or is in denial. And I’d also suggest that anyone who is still under the delusion that immigrants generally, bring net benefits needs to re-read the piece by Mark O’Connor, above .

Part of the new paradigm (mentioned above to Lexi) is 24/7 internet, cable TV, ethnic TV/Radio; and state subsidised, one religions schools which sustain archaic beliefs and practises.

Which may be why:
--young men who have lived all their lives, in the UK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to7uR2Zbubk or,
-- Who’ve sought asylum, in Spain
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a2000zougamqatada or,
--Who’ve sought asylum, in Australia
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/04/13/1175971353190.html
Might identify with terrorist causes in far away places and take to killing their new hosts.

But of course we all know it’s only a minority which feels that way --- or maybe not?
http://pewglobal.org/2006/06/22/the-great-divide-how-westerners-and-muslims-view-each-other/

To adapt maxim that’s hot in climate change circles: if there is a threat, a prudent person takes precautionary measures

BlueCross says:

///Now, it really is upon you to identify these people you describe as 'Stealth invaders', "The ones I'm referring to as Stealth invaders are those who only got interested once this joint was well established & coming here didn't involve having to endure hardship."

We're all agog with anticipation and excitement waiting for your detailed response///

Well, BlueCross, you can stop being agog – have a peek at this:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/christmas-island-surprise-as-another-asylum-seeker-boat-arrives/story-e6freon6-1225974528449

Note these points:
---“The boat is the fourth to arrive in Australian waters in a week, and takes to 132 the number of vessels seized this year.”
---“The Indonesian fishing vessel, carrying 68 passengers and two crew, made it to Christmas Island this morning before being intercepted by a navy vessel.”

Now that’s what I call STEALTH—They got all the way to Christmas island before anyone saw them –and, they were only spotted then because they needed to book-in for B&B.

But mind you for all new know –and are ever likely to know --they may have hopped off a tanker a few nautical miles out, called –up their mates on an Iphone, then idled into Flying Fish Cove – very stealthy, Indeed!

TBC,
And we are all agog as to how far your ignorance stretches.

Inividual <"TBC, And we are all agog as to how far your ignorance stretches."

Not ALL, Individual.
I find TBC very well read and intelligent, without the bigotry and plain racism that I see exhibited in spades on this thread.

I, for one, am not going to continue to contribute to a thread that has evolved into a hate-fest.

I will continue to enjoy the TV series 'Immigration Nation', and I will see you all on another thread.

Cheers,
Suze

Individual,

I see that SPGR has offered an interpretation of 'stealth invaders', his (or hers?), but that is not yours, or not yet, until you place on record what you actually meant.

Why so hard?

However, SPQR, I am suprised you didn't go for the legal arrivals that overstay and then apply to remain here, as 'stealth invaders'.

Surely, far more stealthy than being picked up in a boat and stuck in jail for years?

I see you are resorting to cheap shots, individual, and not ones that are becoming of your high standard posts I so enjoy reading.

Do try to improve, or you might be sent to an OLO hate detention camp.

Thanks for your kind words suzeonline.

I tend to agree with you.

Thanks to Peng too, for starting a thread about a TV show that could go either way at the moment. While I tend to agree with the content I saw, I also feel that it was leaving out a significant area, which may or may not be covered later.

However, the WAP is really too complex for even three short shows.

It would be good to hear from someone who knew very little about the WAP detail but watched the whole show, to hear what they thought having watched and digested it all, whatever their political leanings might be.

suzeonline asks me: "Impressive indeed? "

No! Not at all! Charity is not uniquely Islamic, and it is not the first in Australia. All regions practice charity of certain kind.

I have fallen no trap of anything, please stop trying to tell me how to think and what to think. Just look at the fact.

He came to Australia when he was 3 years old. Are you suggesting a 3-year-old immigrant can bring his religious conviction to the country and make his contribution because of that?

I am going to make your job easier: how about invention? Why not search the Internet for "Australian Inventions"? Please don't list Kabab as one of the contributions, you can do better than that!

This is what I have leaned from this debate: stop speaking in the way you have been taught, rather, speaking what you have learned from reality. If you are not as knowledgable as you wished, go and learn what real life is. Just stop repeating other people taught you what to say.

By the way, please be clear that muslims are not a race but a group of peoples, ranging from white to black, and all the colours in between, who share a religious belief. You may make yourself less creditable in an argument if you fail to have a clear concept of what you are talking about.

HATE feast! Suzeonline I just bet you have asked GY to consider stopping this thread, maybe me.
I want to warn contributors , take care, read Barry Cohen's speech follow Bazzs link.
He speaks for middle Australia, from both sides of the spectrum.
And most Australians, clearly.
Run a poll here and the figures may not show it.
Run one in the street and you can slant it either way, by picking the street.
I see in Peng, my views and concerns,not extreme not racist honest.
Australians MUST never ceed ground to political correctness, a tool minority's impose on most of us, to prevent us being heard over the rat bag idea our views are xenophobic or racist.
I knew Barry he is a shining light a good and great average Aussie, rather his view than PC tripe any day.

Peng:

As I've written in the past, the art of reasoned, intelligent argument is a skill not easily acquired. Sound reasoning will conquer unreasonable generalisations every time. It's better to at least appear to be arguing from a mature intelligent level, rather than an emotional one. No one likes, or supports an abusive, and illogical debater as well as a dogmatic one - no one wants to appear pig-headed otherwise they may subsequently be ignored. It also helps to know the topic. With that thought in mind, the following website may be of
interest:

http://australiansall.com.au/archive/post/australia-s-dangerous-fantasy/

Peng do not change your thoughts Lexi is unhappy with my views but a great person.
I see honesty in your posts and you know as I do we have a problem.
PC is blinding many ,good wishes thoughts and dreams do not make for balance if the other side is not also dreaming.
Barry Cohen was my member years ago ,no fool just a great bloke, read his books great fun humorous fella.
He once had an employee waylay him, she called in the union to his clothing shop.
It was found she was owed a bit of money, Barry paid up, she refused to join the union, said why should I.
Barry put his hand in his pocket and joined the union!
No extremist no racist Barry spoke for most yes true, most Australians are concerned as are Europeans about increasing devisions, not race but religion.
I get it wrong, we all do, but noway I am backing down on my views to remain on good terms with any one.

Belly, thanks for reminding me.

I actually have heeded the advice given by Lexi, namely, searching the Internet for Muslim contribution to Australia. Guess what? I also found the Afkan camel drivers' story. But sorry Lexi, even I counted it as one of the contributions, I am afraid your intelligence wouldn't put up with the insult. The simple reason is that they were here as camel drivers, not as muslims. And muslims are not the only camel drivers. Their contribution is made as camel drivers, not as Afkan muslims.

OK, let's stop the game for a while, and just look at the history. The muslim nations used to be centers of learning, innovation, and preservation of knowledge with splendid architecture masterpieces to show their prowesses in mathematics, engineering, and more.The West owes its revival in knowledge, science and technology to those nations.

Unfortunately, while the West speared ahead with ever growing power in all aspects of human life, muslim nations stagnated. Today, the reality is that there is little they are able to offer to the developed Western nations.

Let me offer you a piece of advice in return: why not search the Internet for "Australian inventions". I bet you would be surprised to see how a tiny nation like Australia contributed so magnificently to the world.

It is better to be an Australian, indeed.

Belly:

I fully understand your point of view. I respect the rights of others to hold opinions different from my own. I enjoy a robust discussion and you are and always will remain one of my favourite posters, and someone I count as a friend.

Peng:

I'm surprised that you were not able to find the appropriate websites on Muslim contributions in Australia - because there are quite a few
listed on the web. However, find the time to go to your local library. It is now possible to explore the past by means of a large numbers of books, (Dr Said's, "Australian Muslims," is one that springs to mind). We can know a great deal about the history of this great country of ours and the contributions that various groups have made. But knowing brings burdens - with knowledge the question is no longer what we know but what we are to do, (as in the case of our First Australians) and that is a much harder matter to deal with. It will continue to perplex us for many years to come. As for Australian Inventions? Having worked for the CSIRO for many years - I am familiar with the topic.

I am looking forward to watching the other two episodes of this interesting TV series. Hopefully for you, the upcoming episodes will provide more information than what you feel the first episode did. I've stated in the past that a historian can establish that an act took place on a certain day, but this, by historical standards, constitutes only chronology. The moment the historian begins to look critically at motivation, curcumstances, context, or any other such considerations, the product becomes unacceptable for one or another camp of readers.

Thanks Lexi, I have learned a lot from you.

You said, "I've stated in the past that a historian can establish that an act took place on a certain day, but this, by historical standards, constitutes only chronology. The moment the historian begins to look critically at motivation, curcumstances, context, or any other such considerations, the product becomes unacceptable for one or another camp of readers."

True.

But it is not where my problem lies. It is OK to be critical towards Australian history in general, the WAP in particular, but it is not OK to pass such a product off as history. I spent four years in university studying history, and other two years in Deakin University again study history. I have never lost my interest in history. The training I received both in an authoritarian country and a democratic country tells me that the way in which SBS presents Australian immigration history may qualify as propaganda. It is intellectually dishonest. It is far better for the producers of the program to name their work something like "the dark side of Australia immigration history", or "look what they did to the coloured", "the nasties, the bigots, and the rednecks"...

Let's wait and see how the program unfolds.

Indy do not kid your self TBC is much more aware than you.
OK Lexi fair enough.
Peng stay around we need all views and the fact you are looking for good as well as bad is great.
I do not think Sydney siders should put the almost nightly negatives here.
Those interstate should put our print media in the favorites and for a month read about us.
no one, not me,is saying all Muslims are a problem.
But until the Muslim community get involved,stop intrusions on my right to live as Australian,and celebrate in my way, remind me what ethnic group ever intruded on those rights, I stand on my view.
PC views we must not offend [by doing what we always have] a minority who came as guests to our country is stupid.

Peng:

I also shall be looking forward to the next few episodes - especially the one dealing with the Baltic people. My ancestors came from Lithuania. My parents fleeing communism during World War II. They came as "Displaced Persons" (refugees) after the war. I was born in Australia, yet I was still considered "different" at school and university - because I spoke several languages and my names were considered difficult to pronounce. However, I have found my own sense of belonging and each of us goes through transitions and transformations. The important thing is that we acknowledge them and learn from them. I have only my life experiences to go on and the obstacles I have overcome in life have been challenging. Every relationship is a gift and I've been fortunate to have been given great gifts by some of the people I have encountered on my journey through life. They have helped shape me into the person I have become and still hope to be.

Belly:

You are a special man.