Ronnie, to clarify a point you made "One more thing RObert. I may have read you wrong, but somewhere on OLO you made sure posters understood that you were not a victim of sexual assault. Probably to let us know that it was outside your experience or perhaps because you did not want to be seen as a victim – another no, no for you. "

The first guess is the correct one, my intent was to make it clear that it is outside my personal experience. I'm trying to understand the issue but don't have personal experience of it.

As to the discussion regarding being seen as a victim - some of but not completely. I've been a "victim" of domestic violence (physical and emotional) and admit to that but at the same recognise my own choices to stay rather than end the marriage at that time.

There are victims who are overwhelmed by a physical assault, others chose it as the lesser harm at the time.

At the time the risks of ending the marriage seemed to outweigh the other stuff - mostly a combination of the fact that I committed "for better or worse" and the biased family law system (and I didn't know the half of it then).

R0bert

It's funny how things come back to you when you read other posts. I do wonder at the impact of the legal system on false accusations when I remembered an experience of mine. I received legal aid and went to court because of a problem with a government agency. I had written the details of my case and gave them to my solicitor. In it I commented on an abusive partner, meaning a business partner. My solicitor read it back to me and said that my husband was abusive! No, you can't say that I said. But, I was told it has already gone to court that way. I told him that it would have to be changed and it was done so in front of the judge. How many though, would just have gone along with it because of intimidation, insecurity or whatever.

Robert said: “Rather I'd like to see a shift in what appears to be an acceptance that false allegations are some kind of legitimate tool to get at somebody.” False allegations are not regarded by women generally as a legitimate tool to get at anybody. I don’t think it‘s representative of feminists, masculinists and humanists . Feminists and others have fought hard to get rape taken seriously and you are working against those gains.

RObert in political journalism there is a tactic that is regarded as the lowest of gutter journalism. It is the “wife beater” slag. Accuse an adversary of bashing their wife. The more he protests innocence the more he draws attention to the charge. He is in a no-win situation and he is harmed. You are doing much the same thing with your false-allegation-a –legitimate- tool slander against women.

Why don’t you just tell l posters why the police aren’t effective gatekeepers? And don’t crap on about how they are conditioned. The process is geared towards the defendant if anything, especially, if he is cashed up. The victim makes a complaint to an officer who will review the information, investigate and then report to the Brief Manger who will pass it on to the DPP. Part of the investigation is to see if the allegations can be substantiated and proven in court. Now a “false accusation” is unlikely to go past these gatekeepers. Read page ten.

http://aic.gov.au/conferences/policewomen3/lievore.pdf

Read about Dawn Annadale who falsly accused. She is rightly in jail now. So, albiet some get by, false accusations are dealt with.

RObert you gather information to back up your position but ignore that which supports the other perspective.

Another thing RObert the police have a media unit which distributes information. Some rape victims may go directly to the media but that would be where the police were believed to be not taking the case seriously or in establishment circles "gold digging". RObert if DPP don’t get a conviction it isn’t recorded as a rape - so rape, as Lievore notes, is more widespread than their figures show.

Celiva: Yes RObert can be sensible but I think he is wrong here. Now you said that Robert seeks equality. There is no equality in a rape – no equality in that “exchange”. There is no myth of male power - it is all about male force and control. And something RObert and his crew refuse to own is that this is a crime that men only do and they do it very often for all sorts of reasons. From memory the stats are about 80% male to female and the rest is men to men and others. Nevertheless, the thing is it is a crime mostly committed by males. Male rape victims would feel similar to female victims.

Roberts comparison unfairly distorts that “exchange”. Rape is gender specific. Males nearly always do it. Roberts comparison tends to lessen the impact of this unavoidable truth about these men. The men that do this are not representative of the rest of us. (And yes even though I’ve said this a zillion times Aqvarivs et al will still misrepresent me and carry on about how I bludgeon all men etc. etc.)

RObert’s comparison is also wrong because false accusations can be made by anyone – any gender. Which brings me to another point. It is interesting to note that every time I have tried to reason with these mens groups certain ones have levelled false accusations at myself and my family. This is truly pathetic behaviour and yet RObert the champion of justice and equality says nothing about these false accusations - such is his true concern. While not on the same level as a false accusation of rape to the authorities, it is these subtleties that show up the hypocrites on OLO in this respect.

Just to show you how silly your comparison is these terrorists that go into villages and rape women. Don’t you think the women would rather they hurled a few false allegations.

RObert that you have been abused by your ex. doesn’t or supported Cambodian women doesn’t excuse your tactics or explain your rather strange reasoning.

Ronnie,
Perhaps the Myth of Male Power is in fact much exaggerated or a myth, but I am not looking at what RObert says from a feminist point of view but rather from a humanitarian one.
I have no doubt that men, like women, suffer from injustices and prejudgments.

If people feel that men, when they’re being falsely accused of rape are not being treated fairly by the legal system or treated with disrespect by the community, and that the accuser is not appropriately punished, they have the right to speak out about it, don't they? This is all RObert is doing in my understanding.

Standing up for victims of false accusations does not mean there is no regard for real rape victims, neither is it a denial that rape is a serious crime.

I believe that all RObert is doing here is raising awareness about false accusations and expressing concerns.

RObert is not denying that raping women is a crime that should be punished by jail sentences. He merely adds that a false accusation of rape is also a very serious crime that should perhaps deserve equal punishment as rape does, depending on the individual cases.
I'm not sure about the punishments being equal to that of rape- I'd need to research it more and individual cases need to be dealt with, well...individually.

Yes, I agree that rape is gender specific and that false accusations are not.
But why does this have to be looked at as a gender problem? A crime is a crime no matter what sex the perpetrator is. Every case has to be judged individually and punished appropriately.

Celivia, thanks and very well said.

I'm nervous about the idea of punishments for false accusations because I suspect that would lessen the chances of the accuser retracting the accusation or of others who know the facts speaking up. Someone who might be suffering from conscience may not speak up if a loved one would go to jail as a result but they might speak up to free an innocent person. I don't know what the solution to that issue is.

I don't hold with the idea that addressing the exceptions takes away from the original issue, an opposition to false accusations does not lessen my disgust at the real cases.

I've written less about the real cases because I think that they are well covered already. We have laws in place against them and little public sympathy for rapists (I hope).

We do have some work to do in finding better ways to manage the prosecution process so that we lessen the trauma on rape victims whilst preserving the presumption of innocence and the ability of an accused to defend themselves. Again I'm not sure what the answers are there.

Being able to discuss these kind issues freely without being accussed of supporting the abusers gives us a better chance of finding real solutions.

Ronnie, I tend to speak up in defence of other posters mostly when I see them being unfairly attacked - if you were a bit less keen to throw nasty allegations at other posters (including myself) I might take more time to tell others that their comments are unfair. I don't generally try and get in the middle of mud fights where both sides seem keen to throw it. I may not always get that balance right but then I am human.

R0bert