Hi folks
the title is deliberately controversial, but it is grounded in the real world.

From the Fabians/Quintus thread it seems this is a logical jumping point.

TRISTAR STEERING and SUPENSION STRIKE.
This action hamstrung the whole automotive industry and brought all the political and union 'bees' out of the hive in a massive frenzy.

a) The issue. "Workers entitlements should be guaranteed and protected"
Information from the socialist perspective is here:
http://www.sa.org.au/component/content/article/121-edition-53/1001-unions-the-most-effective-form-of-protest

b) The problem for the community. In that same article we find this:

QUOTE
Fourthly, working class action can take up any issue. The Tristar strike, like most strikes, was around bread and butter issues of workers' wages, conditions, and entitlements - economic demands. But there is no reason why this same strike weapon couldn't, if workers chose, be used to support political demands.
UNQUOTE

I'm sure you can all see it..the morphing from 'industrial relations' to 'political dictatorship'

ELECTRICAL UNION EXTORTION OF THE VICTORIAN COMMUNITY.
Yallourn Power station dispute. The issue was the use of contractors which might weaken the position of permanent workers.
-My cousin was ONE of those permanent workers and he told me they used to sit around half the day because they were way overstaffed.
-The workforce was reduced from 12,000 to 3,000 after privatization.
Does not not say something about 'dead weight' workers?

WATER BILLS and ETU PAY DEMANDS.
450 electricians will be employed at the desalinaton plant. The construction phase wage is approx $150k each. An advert (yesterday) for an infrastructure job as an 'electrician' offered $120k-140k wages.

How...do we solve this spiralling greed and thuggery?

Al you ask "How...do we solve this spiralling greed and thuggery?"

We solve it by not always seeing the 'proletariat' as the enemy nor assuming the employer is always the innocent party who is painted as the downtrodden victim of workers and unions.

Let us take each industrial action on its merits or lack of merits. There will be times when the demands of unions/workers is unreasonable and other times when they are not.

It all depends I guess on what you see as reasonable. If the staff are lying around all day doing nothing then I suggest they are overstaffed and casual labour is sometimes a good way to fill gaps for times when you need to gear up. I don't know much about the energy industry but only ask that we keep an open mind and not jump to our first pre-conditioned conclusion.

There are certainly instances of thuggery and corruption within the union movement such as incidents of blackmail and holding builders to ransom which led to the deregistration of the BLF (by a Labor Government) but lets not forget in our quest for 'justice' the thuggery and corruption of some corporations and government regimes who seek to reduce the quality of life for employees in many instances while ignoring the excesses and corruption in the executive.

I always wonder why the anti-union mob never ask what quagmire the union movement rose out of in the first place. Historically it was because the conditions in some factories where abhorrent and without the union movement we would not see the changes to safety, wages and working hours that we have today.

Maybe some believe that we should mirror our IR system on that of Third World countries.

Dear Pelly

you said:

"We solve it by not always seeing the 'proletariat' as the enemy nor assuming the employer is always the innocent party who is painted as the downtrodden victim of workers and unions."

The 'proletariat' is only the enemy when they go wayyyy beyond reasonableness and take on a darker aspect.. such as the ELECTRICAL TRADES UNION and CFMEU do.

Can you imagine suddenly having a walk off during a concrete pour just to get wages or allowances SUCH as the Tristar debacle .. 4 weeks pay for each year of service?

The base rate for a builders laborer (on a construction site in Melbourne CBD) was $23/hour over 12 mnths ago. ADD to that all the other allowances and perks and you probably get $35/hour or more.

This for a bloke or girl who has no special training other than to "pick this up....hold that.. wheel that barrow there, dig a hole" etc.

There is nothing wrong with those things, but when others in society outlay $1000s for training, educaction and carry large educational debts into their early years of work.... there is something horribly wrong with such pay rates.

Add this the Desalination plant cost blowout and the outrageous, extortion like "mafia tax" of $150k for an electrician who can qualify after a 1 yr course...again.. something is horribly wrong.

You cannot get such money by qualifications...you can ONLY get it by thuggery and extortion. What is that likely to do to our community?

Boazy you do, truly have my sympathy.
No not patronizing you, I truly do not want to live in the non existent but dreadful world you inhabit.
Believe me words like proletariat are dead, unionists for the most part are the bloke next door.,
Yes some unions are off track, indeed dying but they are not the whole.
Once, as you know, I believed in God, my God if he existed may well not believe in you.
read the texts of Sir Robert Menzies on IR and unions.
You paint a picture of some thing that no longer exists.
one day I will open a debate on IR here.
But sorry No way I Want further contribute to this fallacy one.

Where does he get all this stuff from belly? It's like he's still living in the 1950s. Weird.

Hi Belly... and TBOY

nope..not the 50s.. the term 'proletariat' might be a bit oldish, but in the hot and heavy meetings of the inner circle of some Unions (old BLF ==>new CFMEU.. ETU) it is as up to date as today.

HERE'S HOW IT WORKS. (is working)

Step 1 "Make unsustainable but financially attractive wage/condition/pension demands on employers (labor unions) or the State(public service unions)

Step 2 Step 1 ensures that 'your' people are elected to union leadership. (along with intimidation, thuggery and extortion)

Step 3 When desired conditions are implemented. (example ETU "negotiated" EBA's for Desalination plant which give them (and plumbers) $150k wages.

Step 4 When the country goes into financial meltdown, (see USA and Greece now) YOU are:

a) Organized
b) Able to scream at the 'draconian financial measures' promised by the newly elected conservatives which 'attack workers rights' etc and pensions and entitlements and conditions, which raises the ire of your union members, who then are happy to take to the streets, along with every sympathetic group you can muster) See Greece and UK and Ireland today.
c) From this, there is a greater chance you can bring down a government, and then use your power to install your own... or at least one over which you have controlling influence.

OUTCOME ?

The "Party" members are still looked after (Union members) and the others (traitors to the working classes) are left out to dry and rot because they are not 'members' of the 'party'.

SO.... those of us who don't want an Orwellian world of glazed eyed drones, managed by those (Party members) who find the slightest murmer for justice and equality and a voice to be a 'thought crime'....it is up to us to make a stand, fight this trend, and actually DO something about it.

Gee, that's so 1950s I now feel like getting out my old Elvis Presley LP collection to listen to a few tunes.

You seem to have an ideological objection to people like electricians and plumbers earning $150,000 pa. Weird.

My nephew is an electrician, employed by a private company, and his salary has not gone below $160,000 pa for the past several years. And like nearly all people on decent salaries, he earns every cent via knowledge, education and hard hard work.

Mate, because an electrician earned $15 pw in 1950, don't expect them to earn slave wages today.

I've got news for you, the year is now 2010. Maybe it's time to give away all the commie proletariat rhetoric. You being such an ideological dinosaur makes it hard to take anything you write seriously.

TBOY... an electrician can qualify after a 12 month course.

He can extend with a few other modules.. 'certificate 3 and 4'

They don't take that much time.

$160k for that ? it's outrageous and could only happen through the bald face GREED of unions like the ETU.

The problem you don't seem to realize is that MANY other people in society are much more highly trained than sparkies. I am one of them.
Every engineer is another example. Find how many average engineers.. 3 or 4 yr degree blokes..who are getting that kind of money.

We can all just 'strike' and hold the country to ransom..the Warfies tried it..and finally got their number..and the sparkies will get theirs too.
See you (and/or) your nephew outside the ETU offices eh ?

The idea that we can pay people 'what they want' is way beyond unsustainable, but when you don't care about your fellow countrymen or the nations economic health..but just care about YOU alone and SCREW the country the community and the nation..well.. you can use thuggery to bludgeon the rest of us into paying 'your demands'.. well.. just remember something.. 'we reap what we sow'

My thinking is as up to date as the events on our streets in 2010.
Perhaps you live out beyond the black stump?

"What" makes a sparkie worth $160k? is it 'training' ? 'intelligence' ? 'value to the community' ?
Nope.. only one thing can do it.. 'extortion'.

Ok now I understand. You're engaged in a 50s style ideological class war. Can't let the unworthy peasants earn too much can we. Nope, let them eat cake, and God Save The Queen.

Do you 'really' take yourself seriously? Or is all this just an elaborate joke?

But Al, it's not just unions or Fabians perpetuating this problem. How do you explain a solarium burnt tart on the TV earning more than a surgeon? Or a concretor making more than an engineer? Or a drugged up footballer making more than a scientist?

Not all of these disparities were coerced by union thugs or Fabian socialists. Even in a liberal free society, these disparities would still exist, that's just the way it is. Society places a value on labour through needs and wants, not through how much education you have. Which kind of highlights the ludicrous nature of regulation by government in the market place.

Are you suggesting we regulate how much we value a persons labour by the amount of education they have? How would we bring this about, via government coercion perhaps? Isn't that exactly what you're arguing against?

RAW... you make a good point there. We need to look closer to the 'earning potential' of a person... irrespective of their training.

I have no real argument with the footballer getting a wad of money because the 'earning power' of his efforts are very high for all concerned. Same with the cute babe on TV so to speak.

Sparkies are tradies. (so am I..though I now run a business) tradies are closely connected to mum and dad and the mortgate and the cost of a home. Their earning power is straightforward "labor in..x $$ out" A value is placed on the work of a sparkie.. who wires up homes, installs your meter etc.. in the Trades and professions we need to place relative value on education and ability. This includes intelligence. over 700 blokes applied for the training I received with the 35 others who passed them. The other 665 did not pass. But many of them WOULD have been accepted into the electrical trades. That's why our pay scale was higher in the RAAF (Group7) than the sparkies (Group 6) and the engine fitters and air frame blokes were down further, with 'general hands' (Laborers) at the lowest rate of pay.

TBOY..no, it's not 'me' in this class war it's the ETU and CFMEU...

You insult all of us with your lame "peasants earn too much" bit.. a) they don't 'earn' $150k a year.. they just get paid it, and second.. how can you call a sparkie getting $150k a year a peasant ?

The peasants are the poor buggers who are out fruit picking and the like, or pushing trollies around at k-mart.

I can guarantee sparkies would NOT be getting such outrageous pay for such low skilled work were it not for thuggish unions bullying and extortion. And 'extortion' it is. No other name for it.

Remember how 'suddenly and unexpectedly' ALL sparkies/linesmen developed the 'flue' during the bone cooking heat when the Yallourn dispute was running hot ? "That" is extortion and now we pay more for our electricity

If nothing else your private class war is entertaining. Nice ideology there; keep those nasty tradies in their place, they're barely educated, they're bludgers, they're the reason for high house prices, they don't "earn" their money. Nice one buddy. Nice personal class war you have going on there.

""" We need to look closer to the 'earning potential' of a person... irrespective of their training. """

Well we should allow the free market to determine the value of a persons labour irrespective of their earning potential or their training. We should determine the value of their labour by what we deem it worth.

A drugged up footballer has a much greater "earning potential" than a surgeon and consequently earns more, but to me when I'm sick, a surgeon's value far outweighs that of a footballer. So in my opinion a surgeon should be paid a hell of a lot more.

As to your problems with militant unions or just unions in general, I don't know where to start. They just create so many problems throughout all of society and the mere fact that so many see them as their ultimate vanguard. I think your energies could be better spent attacking the root cause, which is what you were trying to bring to attention in your other thread, progressive socialism.

Unions are just trying to score a bit more of the dwindling pie brought about by progressive socialism, which is an irony really.

Hi Raw

I think the militant unions are the 'communist' expression.. whereas the Fabian Socialists (Gillard and company) are the 'soft' wolf in sheeps clothing..but they both have the same objective.

Progressive socialism is a root 'symptom' :) but not the root cause.

As will all political and social behavior, it comes back to 'us'.

DIAGNOSIS?

Jeremiah 17.9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

GOD'S MEDICINE?

10 "I the LORD search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."

Yep.. my neighbour told me about this local businessman (very VERY rich) who took so much viagra to keep his end of the bargain 'up' :)
and who would 'root anything that moved' (his words).. but one day.. on a journey in a car to some place.. he just keeled over and spat lifes dummy.. in a horrible way. Overdosed on Viagra!

Jason Moran and the Irish controlled Painters and Dockers union.. well we all know what happened to him.

Alphonse Gangitano..standover man... we know what happened to him..(Jason Moran happened to him)

McGurk... standover man... gunned down.

Radev.... standover man.... gunned down.

Carlton crew.. Mick Gatto alone left standing

Karl Williams... biff punch whack.... dead.

It will catch up with the ETU and CFMEU in time..

Who decides the value of someone's work.

According to the Right Wing - your lot Al, it is the amount people are willing to pay, so if an electrician is earning $150K a year the people must be willing to pay the cost - the free market and all that.

Why are some doctors paid less than celebrities? Their work is certainly more valuable. It is the market. Unions are part of that market and the higher the top end salaries go up the more disadvantaged the bottom end salaries become as prices rise.

Why does and average CEO earn $2K per hour (based on the lower end of a CEO range) but we whine when a cleaner or shop assistant wage goes up to (if he/she is lucky) to $25/hr.

We all agree the CEO has more pressure and works longer hours and has to meet targets, but history has shown huge payouts and bonuses even in the event of failure. Well some cleaners work long hours too, often doing two jobs - some might need to if they want to afford food and other living costs. Everyone would agree the CEO should earn more, but a difference of that much?

Who decides what price to put on occupational 'worth' what would such an equation have to factor?

It is all relative Al. We would take you concerns about greed more seriously if you also highlighted the most rampant and influential greed in society which is generally not found where you seek it.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4044#100209

AGiR, Spot on Buddy, but WHY have the getup/labour Clayton's Communist Party over the last decade or so, gone so completely GAGA about "Infrastructure Spending"?

Their "Focus Groups" have been telling them that "Blue Collar Workers" are turning away from "The Darkness". The loudest critic recently has been, you guessed it, the ETU guy. He disaffiliated from the ALP, joined the Red/greens & has been donating union funds to them, instead.

The BER, insulation, etc, rip offs are just the tip of the iceberg. One of the earlier projects in Brisvegas, before Clem7 was the extensions to the Bus-ways. I know of one contractor who was encouraged to increase prices by 50%.

With some of the other Anti Workers policies the ALP has championed for 50 years now they have alienated many workers & have been desperate to "Buy Them Back" & they will leave no taxpayers dollar unspent, in their desperate quest to regain some popularity.

Of course admitting they were ever wrong about any of their past "Evils" & undoing the past damage done, appears to be beyond their tiny minds, especially when they can spend, spend, spend, those mining royalties & GST revenues.

Pelican an adult shop assistant in permanent employment at the big supermarkets earns $17 - $18 per hour gross.

Al, i must say you are sounding like the socialists you hate so much. Let's control who get's what and why they get it, less for those uneducated fools that slog their guts out under ground removing resources so the company bosses can take massive unjustifiable bonuses.
How can you say a trades man is not worth their money. Trades are very highly skilled and require a life time of experience to be the best but somehow because they don't have a doctorate you belittle them. Well i am in the building industry and i can tell you the greedy fat cats are the banks, real estate agents, council fee's, government red tape, and most of all insurance companies. Do you know how much asset a builder must have before they can build a home? I too would again need to check but it was in the six figure area. Where do you think this money comes from? fairy land.
Get your feet on the ground mate, it is not the common worker that is killing this country, it is the arrogant over educated fools that run our financial institutions and insurance companies. Greed ridden real estate agents that push prices higher and higher with pressure auctions and scare tactics, on and on it goes. I can assure you in todays world $23 dollar an hour including what ever extras they may get on top is not much, you are clearly one of those grossly over paid management morons that send companies and nations broke.

Certainly got it bad snags,[Commo, you wouldn't know one if ya fell over one] It is about time the trades had a share of the pie. former wage structures was why we ran out of tradesmen.
You find these days tradesmen are contractors, and not employees.
They belong to an employment group as a means of running an office.
Brick layers $1/brick, and you bye the brick and mortar mix. $80/hr for a mechannic. Good luck to the traidies of today.

Dear Pelly... I agree... yep.. the exploiters of our resources are at both ends of the financial spectrum. I'm picking on 'glaring' examples of unjust/thuggery at the 'union' end at this point. I've condemned the excessive CEO reward umpteent times in the past.. in fact.. my biblical references are directed at BOTH ends of the economic stage.

Snag... (I had you for lunch by the way :) quite tasty) well said.. the point you are making if I may..is that blatant political power and the lust for it does more to shape economic decisions than actual wisdom and sound principle. But Mighell and his minions criticize labor not for anything other than WE WANT MORE MORE MORE.. and Labor has not yet dismantled the one body which is holding back the next round of rapacious clambering for more money.. the ABCC

If Mighells minions can get $150k for a sparkie WITH such laws.. how much will they get withOUT them ?

Nairbe.. I'm just stirring the pot mate.. free expression :) just ask yourself this.. if the builders laborer received $150k for digging a few holes and pushing the odd wheel barrow.....what would that do for the morale and economic health of this country?

Who would want to be an engineer or a mathematician for a measly $80k?
WE HAVE to have appropriate incentive based on ability or it all falls apart.
Most people who become sparkies and chippies do so because they know they cannot acheive highter academic qualifications. (yes there are exceptions who love that kind of work) But trust me.. the sparkie who loves rummaging around in roofs with deadly wires is few and far between.

579 mine charges that $80 but it's for his 'business' so all his wages and his apprentice's are tied up in that $80/hr. If I'm stranded he will come out and help me (blown fan belt) ... barely any charge.

IFFFF they charged $160/hour..how many of us could affort to get our cars fixed ?

LET'S replace 'GREED' with honour..love and charity.

an ideological dinosaur ..
Tboy,
give me the dinosaur any day in favour of a brainless moron.

LET'S replace 'GREED' with honour..love and charity.
ALGOREthatisRICH,

Individual... thanks....I think? :)

TBOY simply shows the effectiveness of the "Fabian Strategy".

Employment of this strategy implies that the weaker side believes time is on its side, but it may also be adopted when no feasible alternative strategy can be devised.

"The inevitability of gradualism"

Key to this strategy is to have people like TBOY be completely ignorant of it. In fact.. it's one of those 'hidden in plain sight' methods.

Of COURSE they don't use the ideological terms I have.. and for good reason.

I've just taken off the sheepskin and displayed the inner wolf of these pernicious people.

95% of our troubles - obscene salaries and other types of incomes, and our cronic economy is totally due to those morons who get into a Political party, and work their way into the parliamentary system, they are the Lawyers, irrespective of the party, you will find that in the party which has been in power and heaping trouble on the workers and allowing the filthy rich to develope, they are Lawyers. In the 1950's, in contempt of the remarks of the earlier articles, Harold Holt was the only treasurer (and he was a Liberal member) who spent time and effort in working out a better system which would allow the workers and small business to enjoy life in a reasonable way, to be able to buy and keep their own homes, and feed and clothe their family and being employed on a full 5 day week (not the 2 or 3 day many have to put up with - the 1 Hr a week and your employed) without having to buy Chinese or other cheap foreign food, clothing and other goods subsidised by the export of our coal, etc at 25% of its true value.

I have stated many times on this forum how disappointed I am about bureaucracy & the indifference of people to put a halt to this obscenity. In my workplace we are now getting to a stage where office staff outnumber the in the field staff by 3 to 1. We're becoming less efficient in the delivery of our primary role due to the ineptitude of Government policies enforced via mindless bureaucracy. It literally is coming down to 1 bloke on a shovel & 3 or more office staff engaged in paperwork relating to the bloke on the shovel. We have tele conferencing equipment, email etc yet our bureaucrats still need to travel every week at huge expense to attend meeting after meeting. My mate said to me last night "did you know that Joh Bjelke Peterson had 7 staff & Petter Beatty had 700". Slightly exaggerated I presume but it does make a thinker think.

What You are saying about tradies is to a degree correct. During the 50' and 60's trades were the first choice of many but as education became more accessible to the population in general their was a shift away and a degrading of the stature of trades. I see that we now realise that this was a big mistake and now recognise the incredible skill levels required in many trades. An industrial electrician certainly won't climb around in ceilings and deserves his $150k a year. A good friend of mine is an engineer working in the refinery industry and laughs at your suggestion of 80k per year. He brings home 250k on contract as do most of the management and engineers where he works. They earn it with hugh hours, mega responsibility and major stress.
I think we are missing the real issues with wages. Yes there are some route jobs where unions are out of control, but can you justify how the head of a major company can take home 5 - 20 million in bonuses a year when most labourers are earning under the poverty rate. The average wage is somewhere in the mid forty k's i believe. but the truth is probably 40% of the population are earning less and another 30% not much more. Then there is the rest that proportionally earn way above their value.
I agree the wage should reflect the job and skill level. Education is not central to skill level. So when are we going to start rolling back or massively taxing all wages over 150k. I would suggest 60% tax.

Hi Nairbe

Re those CEO's etc.. MATE..I'd line the bastards up and... u know the rest.

This all get's back to our basic values. We were founded on the ideas of 'leadership is servanthood' which comes directly from our Biblical/Christian upbringing/traditions... from Jesus "If any of you would be first..he must become the servant of all"

But we've reversed that... I'm not surprised about the engineer salaries for big operations.. I was thinking of a more normal company which I know. My own cousin is on a pretty good wicket but one of my peers from the Airforce was on 120K as a project manager..then he winged about the 'return' :) and now he's on $250k too.. they said "You are the only bloke wse've had who gets stuff done"

VALUES...VALUES...VALUES... without those which are 'other' centred, we will simply spiral into out of control 'self' interest and end up like a bunch of breeding rabbits at a well filled, well grassed waterhole... and suddenly find there is no grass left......

Chippies get around 35-40 an hour I think... (the self employed one near me was going to do some work for $35/hr) Imagine..just IMAGINE what would happen to our mortgages if Chippies suddenly got $150k ?
Brickies.. same goes for them.

Imagine how Brickies and Chippies feel when the Sparkie rocks up in his stretch HumVee with mags etc..(exaggeration) and they in their humble Navara's or whatever. They all work on the same house....
I tend to think this is going to end very badly for our childrens home affordability.

Al your whole stance on this matter is politically and ideologically based. Inflexible ideology is not a good basis for debate.

nairbe makes a good point.

Over the past fifty years or so we have venerated the university education, 'way above the learning of a trade. The idea of indentured apprenticeships has also largely died out, as the attraction of dossing around on campus for a few years has greater instant appeal.

The approach was first to pretend that everyone has a "right" to a university education. This increased demand, which forced an increase in supply, which has led - generally speaking - to a massive decline in tertiary education standards.

So if it is easy to get into, and is less demanding while you are there, it is hardly surprising that Uni is the more attractive choice our youth. Fewer people become tradespeople, demand continues to rise, prices go up.

Economic reality says that this will reverse itself over the next fifty years, as demand for really good tradespeople puts trade apprenticeships on the same level of earning-attractiveness to school-leavers as lawyering was back in the nineties.

In the meantime, it is going to continue to be appallingly difficult to find a plumber in inner-city Sydney.

And impossible to find a good one.

AGIR: an excellent thread.

I agree with all of your comments Pelican.

Carers - $18ph in most states, to clean and look after many Australians [in their 30's, 40's and 50's] elderly parents over many years.

The market, government and families of the elderly have contributed to this fact.

If Australians loved, acknowledged and valued their parents hard work raising them, either the elderly would not need daily or weekly carers in their homes, OR would be assisting their elderly parents themselves in some way OR would be ensuring that 'Carers' despatched to private homes and care, would be sufficiently paid for their care and services to their elderly parents.

The minute they die or are placed into a home, up goes the 'For Sale' sign, with the adult children flying around to clear the home and erect a 'Garage Sale' sign.

For ten or twenty years one does not see the elderly's adult kids for dust!

The market, government and Australians all decide upon wages earned.

Carer wages are a disgraceful situation that needs rectifying.

Hi Folks.. wonderful to see some very positive and informative opinion here.

Pericles..I'm promoting you :)

CLOWARD PLIVEN/STORM unfolding before your eyes.

As I write now, we see a number of countries in various (but critical) stages of the subheading above.

What are they?

CLOWARD PLIVEN is a revolutionary strategy aimed at bringing down capitalism by overloading the social welfare system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy

Of course..in good communist fashion they don't speak of 'revolution' no..they speak of "A strategy to end poverty".

The key is 'overwhelming demands for social welfare by ORGanizing the poor... and ensuring every benefit available is taken up. The objective is to create a social crisis through which there will be a guaranteed national income (wealth redistribution)

This is 'soft' communism.

Now for the HARD version.

STORM
http://media.glennbeck.com/downloads/10/06/STORMSummation.pdf

Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement (STORM)

This works in harmony with the Cloward Pliven strategy and we see the following countries in different stages.

GREECE and FRANCE are the furthest down the track with widespread violence from communist agitators stirring up unhappy public service employees who have had benefits slashed due to running out of money

UK has only reached the 'widespread discontent' stage..the violence will come soon.(Unions are at the forefront of this.)

Notice how it went

a) Demand HUGE public service.
b) Demand HUGE public service BENEFITS and pensions.
c) When the financial crisis comes.. DEMAND the government be ousted.

USA The USA is furthest behind, with only 'talk' of cuts and an election in November. THEN the Unions will take to the streets under the guidance of the booklet "storm"

AUSTRALIA ? notice the public service demo's in South Australia ?

we are unique
Yes the support for carers is minimal and their efforts save governments a lot in terms of institutionalised care.

Rudy
I agree retail staff are only paid about $16-$17/hr - I was trying to be as even-handed as possible with a comparison between the minimum wage and the lower end of a CEO wage, but you are right $25/hr is not near the minimum.

Nairbe and Pericles make excellent points about the distortion in education. The distortion is not real given the standards have dropped to create the illusion that the University Degree is a minimum requirement. It should never have been so, the tiered structure is a much better and workable system. Trade education was poorly neglected for years and in some ways still continues to be underrated.

individual
Your experience in the public service matches mine. Too many blowhards and paper shufflers and not enough people on the ground doing the actual service delivery. Trying to improve the situation is a waste of time and is usually the death knell for any career aspirations.

Anytime there is a move to cut the budget it is nearly always at the bottom end and very rarely do we hear the words "yes we can find some efficiencies within the senior management team". There has been a gradual creep of payrates in the APS where now jobs that were performed by APS5/6 are now performed at the EL1 level while the frontline lower level APS employees become more separated from the administrative end, their very real pressures in dealing with real people and high pressure situations often highly underrated. Add to that cuts in the field/frontline and the problems are exacerbated.

Salaries within the APS overall are bloated and don't reflect the real world and it is one of the only organisations where I would argue for a review of salary creep as well as at the top end of town.

Apologies Al, for digressing a bit on your topic, but individual's words struck a cord.

No problem Pelly... I'm 'tolerant' :) specially of fair dinkum people like you.

I hope you can look at the big picture here though... it is happening..it is serious..and there is a 'plan' which is being worked to.

All the micro stuff you are focussing on at the moment is very important at the individual level...I agree, but something bigger is afoot.

FRANCE. the country is 'buggered' to be blunt with over spending.. and for the life of me I cannot work out where these 'millions' literally in the streets think money is going to come from to prop up the spending which is clearly unsustainable.

Anyone have any clue ? I'd really like to know.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4044#100624

pelican, i agree with much of what you have said in all your comments here but you last sentence was way wrong.

The land of OZ between 1945 & 1965, had fantastic, "Worlds Best Practice" trade education systems. We produced some of the best trades"Men" anywhere. It was destroyed in the 80's by Comrades Hawke & Keating along with education for Doctors & Nurses. Some more damage was done again in the mid to late 90's by both sides of politics, federal & state, but the real damage was by the 80's reforming ALP.

Who lifted the lid on awards.
Bit hot on unions, it aint compolsory to be a unionist.
A union is only as good as its members.
The best tradesmen and educational facilities. I don't know where you get educational facilities from. I done tech school for 3 years before being apprenticed at 16 years old.
1960 was paying $65/ week for a tradesperson.
5 Year apprenticeship.
It's about time trades had a fair go.

Such hysteria, Boaz, over a few little strikes.

>>GREECE and FRANCE are the furthest down the track with widespread violence from communist agitators stirring up unhappy public service employees... FRANCE. the country is 'buggered' to be blunt with over spending<<

You obviously don't remember much about mai 68. They just love a good strike, those French. Helps clear the air, get the dirty water off their chests and all that.

Especially the students. I suppose it is not stretching things to describe them as "communists". But your idea that there is some "communist agitation" going on is extremely far-fetched. "Agitation" has not been in the French vocabulary since the 1930s.

But don't take my word for it. Here's the view from inside the Party, observing the events of mai 68.

http://en.internationalism.org/wr/313/may-68

"Georges Marchais, number 2 in the Communist Party, said in his turn: 'These false revolutionaries must be energetically unmasked because objectively they serve the interests of Gaullist power and the great capitalist monopolies'."

Hardly the most convincing form of "agitation".

And true to form, you can never resist a quick swipe at the Poms, can you?

>>UK has only reached the 'widespread discontent' stage..the violence will come soon.(Unions are at the forefront of this.)<<

I know that you would really, really like this to happen. But it is highly unlikely.

Britain's most damaging strikes in recent history culminated in the 1974 three-day week.

Inconvenience: huge. Massive, in fact. I was there.

But violence? Nil. None.

There was a bit of argy-bargy up in Yorkshire during the miners' strike in Thatcher's time. But mostly by the police.

But a distinct absence of communist agitation.

Incidentally, it is a matter of record that the most militant unionists in the UK are not the English, but... the Scots.

And while I'm here, I thought you might like to know that your "Cloward Pliven strategy", as a weapon of economic destruction, is a load of conspiracy-nut cobblers.

Dear Pericles glad to have you aboard still.

Nice to see you doing some digging there.. I'll read the link don't worry.

Those pesky Scots :) wouldnt surprise me Perilous..it's not a race thing its an idealogical thing. The Scottish nobility trashed the people during the clearances..there are always traitors in every group.

But interestingly..when I rang the CFMEU a while back to ask how much a builders laborer will get.. the bloke who answered was a POM. Lots of poms in our unions. "whinging poms" remember ? :) But seriously.. I was not having a poke at the english in that post..I was having a poke at the socialists.

I believe you will see serious disruption and violence after the cuts come in... if not.. well and good, but the level of violence is not the measure of a movement..it's the numbers and political impact.

France is being torched as we speak. You need to look more closely at what people like Andy Stern of SEIU (until recently) actually say.. openly. (America)

Cloward Pliven is not out of date by any means..just look at ACORN.

And consigning such well documented ideas to the 'conspiracy nuts' only makes you look like one.

From your link, you would do well to focus on the paragraph headed by:

"There were only 300 at the meeting: the majority of students were actively preparing for their end of year exams...."

to see where 'communist agitation' can lead

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4044#100684

AGiR, just wait till you see what is coming up in QLD soon. Talk about Machiavellian Bastardry.

The Asset sales by Goanna B Liar.

They knew it would be unpopular before the last state election, which is why they did not reveal it all until 2 weeks afterwards. They had this confirmed by the outcry the day after it was announced. They had this guaranteed to them by the ALP result in the recent Fed elections with a booth by booth count which has shown they will be wiped out next time. Lucky if they can hold any more than 6 to 12 seats.

But have they taken any notice? No they are forging ahead. By the time the LNP win the next state election, several of Treasuries best Cash Cows will be gone along with the money from the sales. The 89 Billion Debt they racked up during a Boom in Mining Royalties, Coal Transport Profits, both Rail & Ports, plus Stamp Duties on all the Real Estate Bubbles will have been reduced by 10% at best.

With their Profligate Spending on over inflated "Infrastructure" projects set to continue full SPEED ahead, by the time the LNP get there, the debt will be rising again, Exponentially, (i know that's a big word for you Pericles, look it up in the dictionary) the pressure will be on the LNP to either radically cut spending, or raise Taxes, Fees & Charges (of which there are now many in QLD) or Both.

This is their evil plan, of Economic Sabotage, hopefully to turn the LNP into "One Term Wonders". Every Trade unionist will be screaming blue murder, especially the Rail, Tram & Bus union which has at least one CPA life member among its staff & the ETU, they need a lot of lights in tunnels.

SNAGS... yep..I don't doubt you a bit.

Anna blight will do what she has to for SHORT term solutions.

But we all know the 'assets' sellable will run out and then what ? :)

Ohhhhh how the whining the crying...the gnashing of working class and public service teeth will echo all the way down to Victoria.

STEP 1 "sell public assets"

STEP 2 "Tax the rich moreeeeee"

STEP 3 "go broke because the rich left the place" :)

How do I know? aaaah...my spies in Maryland USA (fox news) explain.

Maryland democratic governor decided to TAX THE GREEDY RICH more to raise $220,000,000

Outcome? :) the RICH left the state (residentially) and the state LOST repeat LOST $100,000,000

SOCIALISM.. is bankrupt ideologically....and will bankrupt any state economically.

THE PROCESS OF USURPING POWER.

I've seen deeper into this lately. It seems to work this way.

1/ Public service is unionized.

2/ PS Unions demand ever greater reward, healthcare, pensions.

3/ Left wing (Democrat) Politicians promise to enact such things.

4/ Unions (the ones above) then FUND left wing (democrat) Political candidates....who win

5/ The scumbag politicians then GIVE the unions what they want, making them even more powerful. (The Pollies know they won't be around when the state goes bankrupt)

EXAMPLE. When jobs were advertized for firefighters jobs recently.. people lined up and even camped out to apply! ! !

6/ States go bankrupt with unfunded liabilities and they BORROW.

7/ This lasts until the interest bites, the money runs out the credit rating plummets, no new money... people restless....

7/ REVOLUTION...which is, of course,what the Marxist Union leaders were aiming for all along :)

8/ Everyone is broke, but what little money there is...goes to feather Union Leaders 'country chalets' and luxury homes and possibly concubines.

I see Al took his daily dose of crack cocaine this morning. It helps to clear his mind.

Dear Sammy

no..not crack ..but I DID take a drug.... I'm as high as a kite.. I joke not...I even though about asking people if my pupils were dilated!

My drug was.. 90 pushups (3 sets of 30) and a 5km power walk.. wooooooopeeee.... *I'm flying* :)

But to more serious matters. I note that you have nothing at all to offer in terms of contrary argument..... I guess that means you believe I'm correct, but just don't want to admit it.. rather take the easy (gutless?) way and simply mock me......

Your call.

It seemed a highly relevant observation to me, Boaz.

>>I note that you have nothing at all to offer in terms of contrary argument..... I guess that means you believe I'm correct, but just don't want to admit it.<<

Not a good guess, given that your "contributions" consisted of nothing more than a nonsensical ramble, that attempted to link "selling assets" with "go broke", and "Public service unionization" with "REVOLUTION" (your caps).

If you had presented some kind of coherent linkage, apart from a passing reference to that bastion of probity and truth, Fox News, it may have been possible to mount some kind of coherent response.

But as it stands, it strikes me that samsung's observation was in perfect symmetry with your two last posts, Boaz.

Incidentally, for the record...

>>France is being torched as we speak<<

Leaving aside the overblown language for a moment, I thought I might draw your attention to a rather scholarly analysis of some earlier French disturbances, in 2006.

http://riotsfrance.ssrc.org/Salanie/

The main conclusion is that they are economic in origin.

"...the obscenely low employment rate of the young in France, and especially of low-skilled young men."

And here's a supporting view...

"It is ironic to note that the American media have had no qualms in using terms such as “intifada” or “jihad” to describe the recent riots, whereas both in France and throughout Europe, the emphasis has been placed primarily on social and economic conditions. Indeed, neither Islam nor religious concerns were motivating factors in the riots."

http://riotsfrance.ssrc.org/Cesari/

Do you recall saying this, on another thread...

>>Of course you connect their rise with the closing down of the Vauxall Factory and unemployment...that is part of the liberal/lefty script after all<<

So, which is it to be?

Are these societal eructations symptomatic of the gathering gloom of communism, or the simmering cauldron of racial and religious tension?

Let's just make an effort to assume, for a moment, that you cannot have it both ways?

Because I just know that you are going to try.

An observation that should make one pause, is why when low paid employees make demands for higher pay they are treated like recalcitrant rabble, but when professional or management employees seek the same it is seen as some sort of birth right purely by class or income.

We should be more worried about excesses at the middle and top end which have far more influence on wage/price creep.