Houllie

>>> It also seems to me that some are threatened by any statistic that dares to suggest any women is (sic) ever any better off than any man. <<<

Especially Antiseptic - his daughter will likely earn more than her brother - what a scandal! Maybe she's just more capable?

As for your comment that Anti has taken the CSA to court (as is his right), that was not CJ's suggestion, it was to lobby his local constituency instead of flaming 'we who dare to a difference of opinion' and are not afraid to present it.

:)

pelican, "We should (dare I say) move forward and try to look at a human perspective rather than always being bogged down in a gender perspective."

That seems to be what is being suggested at a policy level.

Frankly I would prefer that government abolished funding for many of the special advisory/advocacy groups that have grown like topsy since Whitlam's day. It would serve the interests of democracy, transparency in decision making and the budget to be rid of them. One of the common observations made in the wash-up to the recent federal election was how disaffected and angry the electorate is with the various 'focus' and other groups that influence government, often behind the scenes.

'instead of flaming 'we who dare to a difference of opinion' and are not afraid to present it.'

I think he's flaming because you're NOT presenting it. He's presenting the argument that more women than men are going to university, and that average pay rates don't take any account of the underlying distribution or the hidden transfer of money from men to women. In response, you lot are arguing that women on average get paid less than men, and he's never refuted that.

If any of you differ in opinion to his argument, I think he'd be more than happy to accommodate you in a debate.

Cornflower
I agree, this is happening more and more at a policy level but with still some improvements needed around the whole 'working family' mindset (but that is a personal beef).

Houllie
"Be happy to. But did you know pelican, that sleep is the next feminist issue. After Birth Rape that is."

Methinks you are seeing too many feminists under the bed.

Women and men are different physiologically and who knows maybe we do need more sleep. Our hormones do seem to work differently to men. Maybe men need more sleep - does it really matter and what has that got to do with the issue?

I find it odd that you think Antiseptic is an impartial voice on this topic. There are more male uni students represented in Engineering, Science and Medical disciplines at university - shock horror run to the papers.

I have recently left my job and am doing some casual work and some business research while weighing up my options. At the moment I represent the lower income end of women's wages and it was entirely my choice. Many women earn less because they work part-time while raising kids or stay at home.

There is no issue about wage disparity as long as the opportunities to access them are not prejudiced toward/against either gender. Much has been gained on this front, bar a few dinosaurs that remain, but that will change over time. These changes have not come about by osmosis and pure altruism of thought. It was because of the feminist movement that any shift was made to recognise women as more than an inferior species.

This period of transition is now less transition and more maintenance, but occasionally it does not hurt to point out legitimate disparities if they are rife in regard to experiences that might affect either men or women. Do you think shared custody arrangements would have come about without a strong men's movement to ensure the role of father is valued.

Sometimes you have to make a noise to get anyone to listen.

pelican,

'Methinks you are seeing too many feminists under the bed.'

Come'on pelican, did you read the Birth Rape link? This is the ridiculous state of feminism today.

'does it really matter and what has that got to do with the issue?'

That's my point. I was agreeing with you that why does everything have to be investigated and lobbied on gendered terms, and then reported only if women are worse off.

Do you think sleep is a legitimate feminist or equity issue? Seriously?

'I find it odd that you think Antiseptic is an impartial voice on this topic.'

Hahaha. Antiseptic, impartial? Hahahaha.

'There are more male uni students represented in Engineering, Science and Medical disciplines at university'

Yes, but as I said, that's because of societal expectations, the evil patriarchy, and the misogynist boys clubs. That there are less men at university than women, and 75% of teaching graduates are women, well, that's just men's choice.

'There is no issue about wage disparity as long as the opportunities to access them are not prejudiced toward/against either gender.'

No no no! According to feminism, if women are under-represented in any aspect of life, in any stat, it must be fixed! Even if women have shown they don't want to access certain avenues, they must be encouraged to overcome these all pervasive 'societal expectations'. You know, those expectations that never seem to fall on men, and that women have somehow no responsibility in forming.

'to recognise women as more than an inferior species.'

That's emotive hyperbole that even rivals my efforts! There were gender roles and I'm sure most men valued the roles women were doing in society. That's exactly the kind of inflammatory propaganda I'm against. You could just as easily say women thought men inferior carers. And as I said, women have 50% responsibility for societal expectations.

It appears not all women want to earn as much as their partners...

http://blogs.news.com.au/moneystuff/index.php/news/comments/my_husband_earns_less_than_me_and_i_hate_it/

Some of the comments are really enlightening...

"Yes, I could have worked full time and my husband could have quit work and become the main carer but I didn’t want to have kids and never see them. I wanted to spend time with them. I never realised before I had kids how much I would want to be a full-time mother instead of combining a career with motherhood. I always assumed I would want to keep working as I loved my job.

The one thing I have learnt is that there are many women out there who feel the same way. I have friends in the same situation and over a glass or two of wine, we all talk about it but haven’t yet come up with an answer.

I have found on many occasions when I sit down with another working mother that I don’t know, we end up discussing our lives (as mothers do), and that many of them will reluctantly admit they really don’t want to work but would rather stay at home with their kids. To the world they put on the public face that they love having a career and a family but that is so often far removed from the truth."

And this...

"The man has to protect and provide for his family since you simply CANNOT expect a woman to be both the breadwinner and the caretaker while the man just settles into some subordinate and lesser role since clearly he would only be a caretaker of the woman’s children and not mother, nurturer and maintainer.

This isn’t about feminism.
This is about what we are biologically optimised to do.

If a man cannot afford to maintain, protect and provide for his family, has reservations or half-baked desire to do so, don’t have children."

Looks like even if women break through the glass ceiling, men will never be able to break into that glass nursery.