I saw this item this morning http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/public-called-on-to-prevent-child-abuse/story-e6frfku0-1225912592784

Mow,I'm not going to make a comment on the alleged survey, whicj I have no way of evaluating, but I do take hreat exception to the following information: "National Child Protection Week 2010, which begins this Sunday on Father's Day."

Why are good fathers to be forced to fend off the association with paedophiles on what is supposed to be a day celebrating fatherhood?

In my view, this is an ill-considered campaign by a few publicity-seekers designed to associate fatherhood with child abuse.

I will be writing to the board of NAPCAN, the organisation responsible to express my deep concern at this hijacking of the one day of the year solely designed to recognise fathers.

I will gladly withdraw my complaint if NAPCAN organises a similar campaign starting on Mother's Day. After all, the evidence is that mothers, not fathers are responsible for the majority of abuse and neglect suffered by children.

I won't hold my breath, the Board of NAPCAN is nearly all women...

If these statistics are correct it is a sad state of affairs. I would have thought the level of reporting to be much higher but before being able to say for sure it would be interesting to know more about the respondent group (22,000 people according to the NAPCAN website).

Personally I agree that such a campaign should not be run in conjunction with Father's Day which is a day that the role of fathers is celebrated.

Perhaps NAPCAN's strategy was to focus attention on the fact that it is father's (in the traditional protector role) who can assist in increasing the levels of awareness about reporting abuse. It may have been done with this association rather than tainting good men by association.

However such an approach is ill-advised. A sexual abuse campaign deserves to be given a time slot in its own right as well as, equally important, honouring of the role of father's on Father's Day without any other agenda.

Hmm disturbing statistics.

Launching this campaign on Father's Day does tend to imply that the onus is all of us, but especially on all parents and sterotypically on fathers who are MEN. Using Father's Day is a bit of a double-edged sword. We want people to sit up and take notice and to take responsibility for the protection of all children against child abuse. Because of its visibility, making the campaign on Father's Day is a good vehicle for drawing attention to this. But it is a value loaded vehicle which does make it completely unfair on all the wonderful, caring fathers and turns Father's Day into something ugly. Have they thought about how turning Father's Day into a vehicle for child abuse awareness could impact on the children on Father's Day? Messy, ugly and hurtful will be the subliminal message to children. Can you imagine this being done on Mother's Day? There would be an outcry, and rightly so.

Pelican:"It may have been done with this association"

I did have a think about that but if that is the case, it is an incredibly ham-fisted effort, since there's no mention of that anywhere and there is a clear association between this event and Father's Day.

The Ombudsman was scathing about the stereotyping of fathers by the CSA. I suggest tthat this is simply another example of the same type of behaviour and is unacceptable.

Your point about the protective effect of fathers is wellmade, though. The evidence shows that when a father is involved in his children's life after separation there is a clear reduction in their risk of being victims of abuse or neglect. Perhaps NAPCAN can take notice of that and make the point overt, thereby celebrating good fathers instead of tarring us all with the same brush as "abusers".

Perhaps they were associating fathers with preventing abuse?

Public reaction to this body would be counterproductive. By all means get many people writing very short, polite, calm reasoning letters to influential people including politicians.

The most profitable thing to do would be to make lemonade from the lemons. You and Pelican have already found a theme which could resonate will all if it does not at the same time play the victim card or trash women.

From previous Father's Days it would be nothing short of remarkable if the federal government made a fuss of it. Maybe if there is a change of government there might be, it is sad to say. Previous Ministers like The Hon Nicola Roxon MP, had difficulty even acknowledging a health week for men. Did she ever say anything about it? They wonder why they lost support and blame the ETS.

Dear Antiseptic,

I read the link that you gave and nowhere
did I find any connection to father's
being tainted by association as you claim
in your opening post. What came across to
me was the concern that, "if a child revealed
they were being sexually abused only 34% said
they would call police, despite 92% of respondents
agreeing child abuse was a serious issue..."

In other words 48% of people surveyed claimed that
they would not take action. This should concern
all of us.

It concerns NAPCAN's Chief Executive
Officer, Ms Martinello who states that:

"If 33,000 Australian children are
being abused or neglected each year, everyone needs
to get involved... We have to recognise that every
Australian child is the responsibility of us all...
We all have a role to play, whether we're a parent,
a relative, a neighbour, a policy-maker, a
journalist, or an employer..."

The fact that National Child Protection Week 2010
begins on Sunday, Father's Day, and continues during
the following week should not be looked at as
finger-pointing at fathers. It could be viewed as
a reminder of the crucial importance that a Father plays
in a child's life - that of a protector.

I guess it's all subjective. Each of us views
things from our own -
different perspectives. (Glass half full...)

"God took the strength of a mountain
The majesty of a tree
The warmth of a summer sun
The calm of a quiet sea
The generous soul of nature
The comforting arm of night
The wisdom of the ages
The power of the eagle's flight
The joy of a morning in spring
The faith of a mustard seed
The patience of eternity
The depth of a family need
Then God combined these qualities
When there was nothing more to add
He knew His masterpiece was complete,
And so,
He called it ... Dad."

(Author Unknown).

Foxy:"The fact that National Child Protection Week 2010
begins on Sunday, Father's Day, and continues during
the following week should not be looked at as
finger-pointing at fathers"

So you'd support an initiative to have this week of recognition start on Mother's Day next year, instead of Breast Cancer Awareness Week doing so?

Foxy:"I read the link that you gave and nowhere
did I find any connection to father's
being tainted by association "

The association is in the stereotyping of all fathers as abusers, which is the dominant stereotype being pushed by the many well-funded women's groups peripherally involved in the child protection industry.

If NAPCAN wants the point made about the protective effect of fathers, why didn't they make that explicit?

Foxy,

"What came across to
me was the concern that... This should concern
all of us."

I understand your concern. I was horrified when I first read that. Then it occurred to me that NAPCAN is an organisation that is about preventing child abuse. We are all aware of organisations that feel the need to approach things creatively to justify their importance and gain maximum funding. Unfortunately that is all too common these days. At a minimum it gives them more money to advance their cause. But if you view their website it points out that the board are volunteers. That doesn't mean that the leading day to day employees aren't on $100, 000 salaries that depend on the continuing existence. (Chances are that doesn't apply and it is just put in as a worst case scenario but those types of organisations can be like that.) Naturally I consider the possibility that they aren't exceptional in regard to the creativity. Thus things could have been set up to make it seem more dramatic then a survey that you or I would do.

Then of course there is the possibility of misreporting or reporters quoting a carefully crafted statement or not fully understanding what is said. Look at the statement "clear-cut examples of child abuse for fear they might be wrong". Naturally adopting common usage we associate clear cut with not reporting. In other words people don't report child abuse that is obvious to them. However if you look at it more closely I would have thought that they are clear cut or not clear cut. How clear cut can it be to people if they don't report it for fear they might be wrong? It must refer to actual child abuse that they don't have definite knowledge of. In other words they don't report potentially correct (or potentially vexatious) suspicions unless they know the suspicions are correct.

So without knowing more I am less horrified.

Sorry, I misread that as...

'It could be viewed as
a reminder of the crucial importance that a Father plays
in a child's life - that of a predator. '

Maybe the constant barrage of these type of messages is starting to have an effect.

It's ok. I'm sure the abusive gender will survive this latest smear. It goes hand in hand with the Australia says no campaign, and the numerous 'innocent errors' used to publicise causes aimed at protecting women from men.

http://www.oneinthree.com.au/misinformation/

Lets face it, all men are guilty until they can prove somehow they don't beat their wives or abuse their kids. Hell, even if they don't, they hold some responsibility for other men who do. Any disputing of facts or calls for accuracy or fairness in dealing with these issues is blatant misogyny.

In the end, anything that helps women is ok by me regardless of the effect on men. This aspect of patriarchy is worth preserving; women and children should be protected at any cost to men.

It's not like it will affect young boys and their image of their gender and sense of self that they are destined to live under suspicion of being violent rapists and child abusers, and need to chant along loudly in this inaccurate representation in order to prove they don't have something to hide.

Dear Antiseptic,

As I stated in my previous post, I did
not get the same message that you did,
from the link you gave us. Yes, I would
support an initiative that was about the
protection of children, at any time.

As for your question, "If NAPCAN wants the
point made by the protective effect of
fathers - why didn't they make that explicit?"
Perhaps they might feel that's a given?

Most resonable people know that abuse and
neglect of children, comes from a variety of sources,
ranging from parents, siblings,
friends, neighbours,acquaintances,
and so on.

Foxy:"Perhaps they might feel that's a given?"

Oh dear me. So all those anti-DV campaigns targetting men were unnecessary? What about Bravehearts - give Hetty the flick? You see, what I reckon these people think is a "given" is that putting this thing on a day dedicated to fathers will associate fathers in general with the stigma of being child abusers. It's very simple semiotics.

Foxy:"Yes, I would
support an initiative that was about the
protection of children, at any time"

So would I, on any other day but Father's Day (or Mother's Day). Parents face a huge amount of pressure in this culture, whether separated or as a couple. Why bring this sort of grubbiness into what is meant to be a day of celebration of their contributions?

Dear Antiseptic,

You seem to think that raising the issue
of child protection on Father's Day is
intentionally tainting Father's and is
grubby.

Fair enough.

You're entitled to you point of view.

Yeah but Fathers day and Mothers day are a croc of...

I'm a father and I wont have a bar of Fathers Day. I don't do anything special. I made the choice to have kids and I raise them responsibly as is my responsibility. I enjoy it. I don't need a special day.

Why do we have to spend our lives trying to 'validate' people and make them feel 'special' and 'appreciated'. It's a croc of sh1t.

Conversely, raising awareness of all the ills of the world is equally redundant. Bla blah blah is all I hear when the latest 'shocking figures' are parroted to me from some well meaning do-gooder with a red nose to sell me or something equally idiotic.

Too much noise in the world I tell ya. It's all an excuse to not actually do anything. Yeah, I wore genes today or a ridiculous red nose, it means I care about little kiddies. Look at me look at me, look at my moustache for mens health. Piss off!

Houellebecq, are you having a bad day then? Dear me, having a go at people who financially support research into the unexplained deaths of babies is low, even for you.

Antiseptic, I think you are being a bit precious here.
I agree with Pelican and Foxy in that I did not find that article in any way a put-down for men at all.
I read it as possibly saying what better day to talk about protection of children than Father's day?

Father's day may well have been chosen as the launching day for encouraging others to report child abuse in all it's forms for a particular reason they haven't told us.

Maybe the men questioned in the survey were the ones who were less likely to report their suspicions of abuse because they felt ashamed of what they perceived as not being able to deal with their own family safety problems?

Maybe it was just a simple reason, and not a huge anti-male drama that you make everything out to be?

Jee, what a sad world we live in if we think remembering our responsibility to 33,000 children known to be abused or neglected in Australia each year will detract from Father's Day.
And I don't think a small organisation of mainly volunteers like NAPCAN working on behalf of abused children is going to do any damage to the spirit of Father's Day, unlike the multi-million dollar assault by commercial interests for the past several weeks.
Every father I know will treasure their children on Sunday and none would begrudge a thought for all those kids who don't have a father who can protect them from abuse and neglect.
As the NAPCAN people say, child abuse and neglect is everybody's business ... and that's every day of the year.

Can I assume that Suzeonline and chill are supporters of my campaign to have the National Child Abuse week commence on Mother's Day next year?

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Antiseptic, I think there are plenty of people that would support the week starting with Mothers Day next year. I am with the others on this - I see no ill will to fathers generally by the choice of date. I am aware that you have been targeted by bitter ex's or the CSA in the past, but you really should try to get the chip off your shoulder when looking at something that is not explicitly aimed at you. I have/had a wonderful father and my husband makes a pretty good one too (I accord my own father slightly more accolades given that he was a single dad, so had to be mum as well). I see no slight to them and am sure that my dad wouldnt see an issue either (and he's a crotchety 70-something yo these days). I think your life story has greatly coloured your view of the world. Try smelling the roses (but dont prick your fingers).

Antiseptic <"Can I assume that Suzeonline and chill are supporters of my campaign to have the National Child Abuse week commence on Mother's Day next year?"

No problems with that at all Antiseptic! Bring it on.

I am not so precious as to get uptight about what day is chosen to support victims of child abuse.

Guess what - it isn't about you Antiseptic.
It is about the children.

Houellebecq:"I made the choice to have kids and I raise them responsibly as is my responsibility. I enjoy it. I don't need a special day."

Fair enough, so do I. I have my kids around every day,but I still see the day as important because in an age in which fatherhood is very often treated as a second-class and largely unnecessary state anything that gives men an incentive to be involved in their children's lives is a good thing. This campaign, worthy as it may be in itself, is hijacking that.

If the NAPCAN people prove me wrong by making their campaign a celebration of the protection offered by fathers I'll be the first to applaud. I'm offering 10:1 if you're interested...

Country Gal:"I think there are plenty of people that would support the week starting with Mothers Day next year"

Perhaps you're right. There'sonly one way to find out: I'll be in touch with NAPCAN today and will keep everyone posted.

Country Gal:"I think your life story has greatly coloured your view of the world"

I'm sure you're right, but that doesn't invalidate my view and it doesn't make me wrong. We all bring our own life experiences to our perception of current events. Even dogs do that. If we didn't, we'd be no more than robots or social workers, with a pre-programmed set of responses that mean no actual thinking is needed.

chill:"I don't think a small organisation of mainly volunteers like NAPCAN working on behalf of abused children is going to do any damage to the spirit of Father's Day"

Perhaps not, but it's not just NAPCAN,is it? They're "coordinating", but it's being run by the various state authorities. Do you reckon that the millions in advertising is going to be effective or gender-neutral or focus on good fathers? If it is, they're off to a lousy start, since there's no mention of anything to do with good dads on any of the websites I saw relating to the subject.

I just had a quick flick through the Vichealth website on the subject. There are lots of gender-neutral references to "parents", but in the referrals section, the only links are to "Maternal and child health" services, "Single mothers and their children", etc, or such organisations as Relationships Australia, which is hardly a gender-neutral group.

Dads don't get a guernsey, except implicitly as perpetrators.

If the intent is to highlight the protective effect of dad's presence, why isn't that being made explicit?

I think that Antiseptic's being a tad hypersensitive here, but he does have a point. Let's see how NAPCAN responds to his suggestion about timing the National Child Abuse campaign to follow Mother's Day next year, although it'd be more likely to be taken seriously if it didn't come from a disgruntled individual, as opposed to an appropriate representative organisation.

Have you talked to your local MP, Antiseptic?

CJMorgan:"Have you talked to your local MP, Antiseptic?"

Nope. To be entirely honest I'm not even sure who it is.

CJMorgan:"a disgruntled individual, as opposed to an appropriate representative organisation."

You're quite right. I need to start a "council" or "Association" or "Foundation" so I can speak on behalf of others, whether they want me to or not. Besides, think of the tax advantages and all the grants I could apply for...

Our society is based on the views of individuals, despite the best efforts of some sectors to limit their inputs to congenial groups. Every significant social change has come about because some individual thought it was needed.

Antiseptic, before you started this topic why didn't you contact NAPCAN to ask them why Father's Day was chosen?

TZ52HX:"before you started this topic why didn't you contact NAPCAN to ask them why Father's Day was chosen?"

Why should I have to? Their intent should be clear in their advertising, it should not rely on insinuation. Besides, in their advice to those wishing to host an event during National Child Protection Week they say:

"What to include in your media release?

The Headline - It is vital when writing your media release to attract the journalist's interest right away. That is why the headline is so important. You should put a bit of kick, and a bit of creativity, into the headline but keep it short and in active voice:

Date - Just under the headline you need to put down when the release date is.

The Body of the Release -

* Explain the WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, WHY and HOW of your story, and do it in the first paragraph.
* List the points of interest in descending order from the most interesting down.
* Try to write the release in the way that you would like to see it reported.
* Use clear, simple and economical language.
* Keep it short - keep your release to a page or page and a half at most.
* Remember the vital details such as the location, the date and the time of your event.
* Make sure your group's contact details are included - and have a spokesperson ready and willing to talk. "

so it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the lack of any explicit mention of fathers in a positive light is deliberate.

Why don't you ring than and ask?

Me: "Before you started this topic why didn't you contact NAPCAN to ask them why Fathers Day was chosen?"

Antiseptic's reply: "Why should I have to?"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You don't "have to". Nobody said that.

It's interesting to see that you felt no need at all to contact NAPCAN before you posted your opinions on the topic.

Logic would suggest that a person would first contact NAPCAN to find out why Father's Day was chosen. Then if the answer showed an association between that date and some type of anti father philosophy from NAPCAN, it would be appropriate indeed to start a topic here lambasting NAPCAN's attitude towards fathers.

But you didn't do that.

You made an assumption, based on an opinion you already had. Therefore you felt no need to ask NAPCAN why the date was chosen.

Readers can draw their own conclusions.

TZ52HX:"Logic would suggest that a person would first contact NAPCAN to find out why Father's Day was chosen. Then if the answer showed an association between that date and some type of anti father philosophy from NAPCAN, it would be appropriate indeed to start a topic here lambasting NAPCAN's attitude towards fathers."

I disagree. The choice of Father's Day offends me as a father. Furthermore, I don't see anything on NAPCAN's website or that of associated entities that makes any mention of an intent to praise fathers. The logo on their website is a stylised pink silhouette of a woman crying. What does that tell you about their agenda?

What it tells me is that they are one of many groups who see their allegiance to "Mothers and their children" and that this is an attempt to link fatherhood with abuse.

If I'm wrong, the group is welcome to make their case here.

Those people who think Anti is being hyper-sensitive are focussing on the isolated incident and missing the broader pattern. This press release and that website may not explicitly say that all child abuse is done by men, they just happen to use anecdotes with male abusers, they just happen to use pictures of men up to no good, they just happen to start awareness week on father's day...

It is a no-win situation using either of the Parent Days. Fathers may either feel overly excluded (using Mother's Day and guilty by exclusion) or overly implicated (using Father's Day and guilty by inclusion).

Best to avoid May and September altogether so any message is not lost to other senstivities of feelings of victimisation. Afterall the message should be about the kids.

While NAPCAN may well have thought this was one way of de-stimgatising fathers by involving them more in 'protective' activities rather than always putting the mother up as the sole protector of children's interests. But if this was indeed the intention, it is evident the strategy has had the opposite effect (if indeed this was the approach - I have no idea).

It is a dilemma. How do you get a message out with offending anyone or demonising men?

Fact is mothers, fathers, neighbours, friends, cousins, uncles and aunts - in fact anyone with two arms and legs - might all play a role in the reporting of child sexual abuse, particularly if one is employed as a teacher, child care worker or in a medical profession.

What about encouraging people who feel as you do and many probably agree with you, to write a polite, respectful, short letter to NAPCAN with a drop copy to each of its partners? Assume they were not trying to be insensitive and trying to score points in the first place and ask them what other alternatives they might have considered. You could raise the all male examples at the same time, without rancour.

You can pen a few suggested letters and invite people to change them to suit. You could draft and get feedback on a para or few in this thread if you wanted to, or do it with friends.

Partners as listed by NAPCAN, you ned to get the addresses:
http://www.napcan.org.au/resources/behavioural-change-tools

It isn't as though all of those bodies are out to trash fathers.

It is about empowerment, not feeling used and abused and taking some action helps with that.

Dear Pelly and Cornflower,

Thanks for your well reasoned posts.

And some excellent advice.

I've done a bit more research into
NAPCAN - their mission statement,
strategy, who they are, and so
on. Everything I read dealt with the
protection of children, which seems to
be their primary concern, and their aim
appears to be - to get everyone
involved towards the prevention of child
abuse and neglect.

Their main concern as another poster pointed
out - is the children.

I didn't find anything more sinister in their
activities or organisation. And I did look.

I agree Foxy. Excellent posts from pelican and Cornflower.

While I think I have some understanding of Antiseptic's anger, there are more productive ways of addressing the issue than just banging on in an online forum. To his great credit, he's apparently addressing related issues properly in the Courts, but I think that a less aggressive approach would be more likely to achieve a consideration of his arguable objection to the timing of the beginning of National Child Protection Week on Father's Day.

I think it's poor timing, which is exacerbated by the fact that, when you think about it, the very issues that upset Antiseptic must have been discussed and dismissed. The timing does indeed send a symbolic message - and if it's supposed to be a positive one it doesn't seem to be working very well.

Cornflower and pelican have suggested some productive ways of doing something about Antiseptic's concerns, and I've suggested the tried and true method of getting on the local MP's case about it. The State government invests money in these kinds of events, and s/he could raise questions in parliament about if you could convince them.

Of course the kinds of suggestions we've made are probably too much for someone who's apparently running a Court action on his own steam. In which case I think it's perfectly reasonable to raise what is a valid issue here and to let off a little of that steam, IMHO.

Thanks for raising the issue, Antiseptic. I probably wouldn't have thought about it if you hadn't.

CJ Morgan

Entirely reasonable summation.

I would suggest that timing has never been better than now to lobby your local MP with all the argy bargy going on in parliament right now.

I would also concur that a little less aggression would gain more support for Antiseptic, I couldn't help but notice his unprovoked insults on two posters, Suzeonline and Pynchme for comments they apparently made on another thread, comments which were preceded by a complaint that a (named!) woman from CSA had made about Antiseptic's lack of respect to her. Could be a connection there, only sayin'.

Antiseptic, you may have a legitimate grievance, however if your approach to the workers at CSA is anything like your responses to the above mentioned Suzeonline and Pynchme, well, mate, you are bringing more trouble onto yourself than you really need. I admit that I didn't have to go to the extent of dealing with the CSA, my ex and I managed our arrangements equitably after working our way through the majority of human emotions and then some.

In dealing with bureaucrats, I also have a physical advantage being tall plus I treat people with respect, a persuasive combination - people tend not to challenge me - there are some advantages in being stereotyped sometimes. To which I would like to add, everyone is stereotyped, my ex missus being very blonde and very attractive, is often assumed to be very dumb - not a good idea to make assumptions about anyone - especially her.

;)

Pelican:"It is a no-win situation using either of the Parent Days. "

You got that dead right. It creates connotations that detract from the campaign.

Sadly, the Child Protection topic has been polarised over the past couple of decades into a "father as abuser,mother as protector" model, which is simply not sustainable on the evidence. I believe this choice of day may well have been thought by those who chose it to be uncontroversial for that reason. They are simply unable to see past their prejudices.

Furthemore, this is not really a public awareness campaign if the NAPCAN literature is any guide.It's aimed at those already in the field and they have no problem at all with tarring fathers with the abuse brush.

The intent is to highlight the abuse and neglect that some children suffer: make that the focus, don't hijack the one day of the year that fathers are recognised by the community as a Good Thing.

Johnny Rotten, thanks for the critique. I'll file it with the rest of the unsolicited advice on how to run my affairs...

You see, I don't want "support", I'm quite capable of making my own case on rational grounds. I appreciate the sensible critiques from Cornflower and pelican and even CJ Morgan, although he can't help but make an attempt to "poison the well", which diminishes his contribution. If the only thing you can find to discuss about my argument is my manner, I think I'm doing a pretty fair job of it.

If you'd like to discuss my ideas about the CSA,the nursing "profession" and social workers, feel free to join in a discussion on those subjects.

Johnny Rotten, that was a very good post from you, and it offered an insight that others did not touch on. You raised some quite important points. How we treat others is usually how we get treated in return; you sound like a good man, despite your name, lol.

Antiseptic

I never wrote my post expecting a positive endorsement from you. I just call it like I see it and I have seen many personal vindictive attacks from you to other people who, like you, are entitled to express their opinions.

You get back what you give out - which is why a good place to start is by respecting others, they may well prove unworthy later on, in which case a man can revise his opinion.

You spend a lot of time complaining about your treatment by women, the CSA and others, then become irate when others do not immediately support you. You put out your opinions - whether they are right or wrong. Therefore, it behoves you to expect others to post their opinions which may or may not concur with your point of view. You do not give the impression of a very young man, however you react like someone who does not deal well with having his authority questioned - your burden.

There's an old cliche, no less true for being such; 'you catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar'. There are many kind hearted people on this forum who would give you the support you crave. Your choice.

Thanks TZ52HX, my name is meant to be ironic.

Johnny Rotten:"You spend a lot of time complaining about your treatment by women"

No, I don't. Go and read my posts before you comment.

JohnnyRotten:"the CSA and others, then become irate when others do not immediately support you."

No, I don't. I become irritated when the usual people respond in the usual way, mostly not touching the subject. For example, I say that I'm offended by the choice of Father's Day for this event and I get accused of hating women.

I don't want "support" that is dependent on you or anyone else liking me. If you can show where my arguments fall down by all means have at it, but don't expect me to waste any more time talking about my manners.

Johnny rotten:"you react like someone who does not deal well with having his authority questioned"

It's more a case of not suffering fools gladly. Once again, I don't need the "support" of such people and their opinion is rarely worth canvassing.

You may not be one of them, but you've started off badly if your aim is to demonstrate that.

One of my great bugbears is the double standard. Yopu've spent 2 posts criticising my manner, may I suggest you pull your thumb out of its customary orifice and check a few posts from the "maidens in distress" your bout of whiteknightitis is apparently intended for?

Thanks for your contribution.

Johnny Rotten, how we treat others is usually how we get treated in return. Having an understanding of that very basic human truth is a pertinent skill that greatly assists any person to gain the results they want from life.

If a person treats others with derision, aggression or rudeness, that is how they will often be treated in return. A sarcastic, rude person usually has little emotional intelligence and limited personal insight. Challenging them rarely brings any results whatsoever except more derision,aggression and rudeness cloaked in defensiveness.

I think it's time for us both to drop it as it's futile, and leave him to his own devices.

Thanks Johnny Rotten and TZ52HX, but you are flogging a dead horse with our anti-maternity Antiseptic.

You will never change his views on this subject,
so I agree with TZ52HX after the comment-
<"I think it's time for us both to drop it as it's futile, and leave him to his own devices."

See you all on another post.

Cheers,
Suze.

Hahaha. That's the other standard non-response, Johnny. Start telling other people not to have anything to do with "the anti-maternity antiseptic".

What was that about manners again?

Has anyone else had the nasty thought that a political assassination, could happen in Australia to force a lower house bye election. With an overwhelming coalition Senate vote in the electorates represented by the Independants, a disgruntled coalition supporter, could take the law into his own hands and force a bye election, simply by shooting one of them.

These are desperate folk in many cases. People are being forced from their homes by the breakdown of law and order. There are still thousands of guns out there. Most of them are not combat semi automatics, but simply repeating rifles, that are just as deadly, for a single shot. Each has a remote electorate with a large area. Australia has only had one attempted assassination, but desperate people take desperate measures, and a Green Labor Independent alliance would lead to dark despair and desperation, and desperate people do desperate things.

I just hope these three wise men really know their electorates. The electorate of Kennedy has kangaroo shooters, and pig shooters, whose prowess with rifles is legendary. I have heard New England has its share too, and most rural areas, have rifle and pistol clubs, where local go to practice. This could be the wild card, that denies Julia the Miss Australia award. I just hope Tony is wise

Well that's about as relevant to the discussion as Peter's contributions normally are. Mind you, it's probably quite appropriate, since sensible, constructive comments ceased a couple of posts back.

TZ52HX

Agreed.

Time to bail, lest we be "tainted by association".

Antiseptic

You'll just have to make do on your own. I guess you are used to that.

Johnny Rotten:"[choose snide remark]"

Oh dear. So much for all that high-flown advice to me, eh? Just so much bum-fluff.

You sound to me like someone who's not used to having their authority questioned...

To get back to the topic after the derailing by the faux-polite JohnnyRotten et al, there was another media release in the paper today.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/alarm-bells-over-publics-blind-eye-on-child-abuse-20100904-14vdc.html

The following quote neatly sums up why I and I'm sure many others, are cynical: "Mr Geary said up to two-thirds of notifications to child protection services were found to be unsubstantiated."

Having had just one experience with DOCS here in Qld, when the ex's new b/f's ex made a complaint about her (for threatening to throw a potful of water on a group of unruly kids, including mine), my impression is that this is not an underfunded organisation struggling to protect kids, but comprises a bunch of people with a lot of time on their hands.

That complaint took a week to process and the processing required interviews with me and the children (all 5 of them) at school, with noone's knowledge except the school.Each interview had two DOCS staff in attendance and took an hour or more, plus travelling.

This simple, stupid incident cost at leat 1 person-week of expended effort and that was with cooperative subjects.

When you multiply that by the number of stupid maliciously-motivated reports (up to 2/3 of the total according to Mr Geary of Vic Health) you have to wonder why we bother.

Oerhaps the best thing for the various Child Protection authorities to do is sack all the social workers in management positions and start prosecuting people for false reporting. That may restore some credibility.

This subject sadly is mostly about Aboriginal kids, who are victimised at many times the rate in the general population. It is NOT a problem for middle class children, on the whole. Yes, some are affected, no doubt, but it is wrong to create a false impression of the problem's dimensions, the way NAPCAN is doing.

On the other hand, I must acknowledge that there has been no overt arrempt to link fatherhood with abuse as yet. I'll be watching with some interest.

'On the other hand, I must acknowledge that there has been no overt arrempt to link fatherhood with abuse as yet. I'll be watching with some interest.'

Why would there be. No-one has said fatherhood and child sexual abuse are synonomous. May I suggest this is more in your mind than the reality based on your own experiences.

There is a difference between saying some fathers sexually abuse their children and fatherhood itself is responsible for sexual abuse of children. That is clearly not an association that anyone would or could make and it would detract from the very important issue of child sexual abuse.

More men than women commit sexual abuse against children. It is just a fact just as more men commit break and enter or commit murder - it does not mean that men as a rule will have any part in those acts.

You bought up the statistics for child abuse by mothers at one point on OLO but this does not mean that motherhood is to blame for abusing children.

We are all accountable for what we do. Our gender just denotes if we are boys or girls it does not diminish our responsibilities to children.

To be fair to men, if it were not for the fortnight of advertising advertising before - which is always so uninspired (or is that the subject of it) that it is being overtaken by the green and gold for Xmas - one could easily believe that Father's Day in Australia is a non-event, something honoured through lack of observance.

Where interviewed over the years, fathers seem to believe in the quiet day with their family around them and are quite prepared themselves to do the barbecue and mind the children, even on 'their' day.

Notwithstanding that, it would have been rather nice for the PM, Julia Gillard and State Premiers to have given newspaper editors something kind to say about fathers, today. Perhaps some cities could have thrown a few dollars into it too. Brisbane had its fire festival for the Brisbane River (?!) the night before, but why the festival isn't combined with Father's Day is anyone's guess.

Yes, there is a hung parliament and there is that awful news from New Zealand to occupy journos, but a puff story with some joyful photos would have been the very minimum that should be expected to lead fathers into their day. Nope, nothing proactive and perhaps that has become no surprise to fathers, hence some of the cynicism in this thread.

Alas, the trend from previous years continues - the vacuum of silence and I could have written the same comments in OLO last year. All is not lost, the quest for easy short news grabs for the Box should lift the lid for a few seconds tonight.

Maybe our new tradition is to pretend that fathers don't exist, but where is the good in that?

Who better on Father's Day than Rudyard Kipling?

If..
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

Hey Cornflower

Is the poem for biological fathers or just dads in general?

Anyways, am off to the zoo with my (biological - not that it should matter) daughter. Just as soon as she has finished deciding what to wear.

I agree with her that OLO looks like a women versus men bunfight and I cannot offer her much by way of explanation either. After all (she says) we have Mothers days and Fathers days, what's all the squabbling about?

Out of the mouths of babes Johnny Rotten.

Dear Cornflower,

Women's magazines have covered Father's Day
rather well. From Hugh Jackman's "Father of the
Year," to Sonia Kruger's, "Why She's Smiling
Again," dealing with her father's recent op.
Then there's been all sorts of advice on how
to make "Dad's Day," with plenty of advice,
photos of fathers, and so on.
"The Age," newspaper contained articles like,
"Portrait of my father," ( including
precious snapshots), "Like Father Like Me,"
by Samantha Selinger-Morris.

Even our local magazine, "Melbourne Weekly,"
did a feature article by David Natoli - a
father figure to kids in need.

Good for the much maligned women's mags.

In 2010 we did see Quentin, as in G-G, for Mother's Day as Patron of the Mother’s Day Classic (at Southbank, Brisbane). Very positive and registrations are already being called for the 2011 Classic:

http://mothersdayclassic.com.au/register-online

Maybe men should seek support for a Father's Day Classic for prostate cancer to raise their profile.

Not such a bad idea because it could combine a number of men's health issues with Father's Day. A positive recognition of Father's day with the PM and Premiers saying something and it wouldn't matter if NAPCAN hobby-horsed for the following week.

Our fishing club had a Fathers Day barbecue at the local pub. I'm the treasurer so I went along and cooked some snags, drank some beer and traded fishing yarns. Dads, mums, kids, grandparents and various others all took part, and a very pleasant day it was. We always do something for both Fathers and Mothers Days, and we never schedule fishing outings for those weekends. I think that similar things happen in the neighbouring towns too.

Cornflower - I had that Kipling poem on my bedroom wall as a kid, placed there by my father. He never quite lived up to it, and neither did I, but they are indeed noble sentiments. Mind you, I'm not sure that there's anything essentially paternal about it - they could just as easily be words from a mother to her son.

Why does Fathers Day have to be linked to any issue beyond fatherhood? I like a day when I get appreciated for just being as good a dad as I can be - I imagine most mums feel similarly about Mothers Day.

JR - as pelican said, out of the mouths of babes.

Cornflower:"Maybe our new tradition is to pretend that fathers don't exist, but where is the good in that?"

Exactly. Dad's role is to pay and shut up in the Brave New Feminist World.

Thanks for the poem. It's long been one of my favourites. The passage:

"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;"

carries a lot of resonance for me and I suspect very many men in our society.

Foxy,I'm glad to hear that the women's mags are making an effort. I may make the effort to look them up to see what the tone of the pieces is.

Cornflower, there have been lots of efforts to get politicians and other public figures to stand up and back fathers, but they're all terrified if the huge cohort of "single mothers" who are readily mobilised to vote en bloc against a politician or party who they perceive as insufficiently dedicated to their cause. Siding with "that bastard" is a pretty sure way of getting that mobilisation happening.

CJMorgan:"Why does Fathers Day have to be linked to any issue beyond fatherhood?"

My point exactly.

>>'Johnny Rotten, thanks for the critique. I'll file it with the rest of the unsolicited advice on how to run my affairs...'

Gold! Sums up the whole thread. Again, welcome back anti. You provide wonderful entertainment for all. Not least those who love to patronise your good self and jump up on their high horse. People just love someone to feel better than.

I often find your posts contain quite simple logic, and an invitation to refute said logical arguments. Quite often others find it more entertaining to address your 'attitude', especially 'to women', rather than simply address the claims without emotion.

Not so much on this topic, but in general, I just love when the 'nice' people cant handle sacred cows being slaughtered. Lots of the time people would/do actually agree with many of your points but they cant get past that you refuse to 'empathise' or add the standard disclaimers to show you 'care' in the more 'sensitive' topics. They'd like to bully you into conformance with their idea of table manners.

So here we have a wonderful plea for septic to catch more flies with honey. Bollocks to that I say! That'd be no fun at all.

But, back to Fathers day..

'Why does Fathers Day have to be linked to any issue beyond fatherhood? I like a day when I get appreciated for just being as good a dad as I can be '

I would say, why does Fathers day have to be linked to Fathers at all. Fathers, mothers, grandparents, children are all generally appreciated all year round, and these inane festivals of useless gifts and corny stereotypes only hampers the quiet enjoyment of domestic bliss for all.

If anything Fathers day vilifies men as appealing to martyrdom and being appeased by DIY gear and frivolous (car/golf accessories) or banal (socks) gifts. The only possible interpretation is men feel put-upon by their kids and have very narrow life interests.

BTW: Foxy, thank you so much for your tireless efforts lately in keeping us all up to date with the contents of women's magazines.

<< So here we have a wonderful plea for septic to catch more flies with honey. Bollocks to that I say! That'd be no fun at all. >>

That depends on whether the purpose is to actually get something done about the issue that purportedly offends the OP, or simply to let off some steam by having a rant and slagging off anybody who disagrees with him.

I and others took Antiseptic at his word and offered some opinions about how to do something productive about it. Clearly, it was a waste of time, but I'm pleased it provided some entertainment to the peanut gallery.

CJMorgan:"I and others took Antiseptic at his word and offered some opinions about how to do something productive about it. "

Yes, you did and I appreciated the constructive suggestions. What a shame you couldn't leave it there, eh? Once the pack starts baying, you can't help yourself, can you?

Antiseptic

Thanks for the update - nothing you say is to be taken seriously - I geddit.

Therefore there is no need for you to take offence when I disagree with you, is there, mate?

Johnny Rotten:"[insert snide remark]"

More bum fluff from Johnny. Well done, you.

Are you sure you're not related to CJMorgan?

Johnny/CJ, he's lost the debate so what does he have left? Snide sarcasm, that's all; as shown by his above immature post.

And thanks Foxy for your intelligent contributions.

TZ52HX:" "

Nope,nuthin' there.

Do try to get over your obsession with antiseptic, dear. It could never work.

Foxy, you're right about the coverage of Father's day. The mags covered it really well. Johnny R, yep I agree, what's all the squabbling about, we have both a Mothers Day and Fathers Day. Good onya!

So TZ52HX, you'd go along with the 'joke' too? - That few men would ever be likely to read an article about Fathers Day in women's magazines?

How clever, what a insensitive little backhander for all of those dads, eh? They are due for that, you reckon?

Good onya! (sic)

Hey corny, I'm a guy and I read women's mags all the time. Lots of guys read women's mags, lot's of women read guy's mags. My better half reads my mags, her better half reads her mags.

Nice "spin" you have there though, in fact "crazy" spin; your reasoning is that because I mentioned that women's mags covered Fathers Day then that's an "insensitive backhander for all dads". Ummmmmmm corny, are you currently on weed? Sounds like it.

What a lot of noise on this thread now. If anything the role of fathers is more recognised now than in the past when it was assumed mother's were the sole carers. And when child custody was automatically given to the mother unless she was an axe murderer or drug addict - now there are shared arrangements.

Yes definitely sounds like society wants to demean the role of fathers.

Are you lot serious?

It is counterproductive not to give some positive recognition to Father's Day where research suggests that for fathers to become more actively involved with children they required four facilitating factors: motivation, skills and self confidence, social approval and institutional support (flexible hours, parental leave etc).

If Australia is anything like the US, around half of children will live apart from their biological fathers for at least some of their childhood.

It would not be such a difficult thing for our esteemed State and federal leaders to throw fathers a congratulatory line or two on Father's Day, or showing the flag at an event (but what event?). Who knows, next Father's Day Julia G could be photographed with her dad, John.

Tainted by association?

After reading this topic and taking into consideration what all sides have written, I'd say a resounding NO.

It reads to me like the topic starter has an agenda.

Whoa there, Jockey, it is not an on-line poll.

What about dismounting from that high horse and contributing some mature argument? Why do you think as you do? Just the facts, win/lose is irrelevant and counter-productive.

Cornflower,reading both sides of a debate, and coming to a conclusion as a result, is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. You may not like my conclusion, but I have every right to come to that conclusion, just as I have every right to word my post in the manner that I choose, and not the way you choose. Please accept that people will differ in their opinions, and will not always present themselves in the way that you'd prefer.

Whoosh, straight through to the keeper. So be it.

Good on ya.