Thanks Dotto,

You have your wine and butter and chocolate. The difference is that if we all, of our own free will, gave up butter and chocolate we could not say society would be any better off.

On the other hand, if everyone were to forgo alcohol and gambling (and do so willing thereby eliiminating the prospect of a black economy emerging) would society not be better off?

Pericles,
I'm also interested in your response to this question:

If the majority of Australians were to forgo alcohol and gambling (and do so willing thereby eliminating the prospect of a black economy emerging) would society not be better off?

Clearly it would be wrong to say, as you did, that coercion would be necessary, because Muslims prove this wrong (perhaps also Budhists). So it is a real alternative.

*Clearly it would be wrong to say, as you did, that coercion would be necessary, because Muslims prove this wrong (perhaps also Budhists). So it is a real alternative.*

Not so grateful, because sly grog etc, is sold just about everywhere.
It is the religious police and the police, who make sure it does
not happen too openly, or that people are locked up if they
don't comply.

Not just sly grog either.

In Malaysia I'm told they patrol at Ramadan, to check if restaurant
patrons are actualy Muslims or not, having lunch during daylight
hours.

If all Muslims did all these things willingly, there would be
no need for religious police and no need to ban alchohol sales.

Not all Muslims do not drink.
I had 4 in their 20,s who drank quite a lot and got kicked out of work bed rooms twice for it.
They very much followed their religion and in time lost their jobs because of continuing drunken damage to rooms.
The world would, in my view be a far better place if judgmental people stop preaching to rule the world in the name of non existent Gods all of them.

Grateful ,
Now let me get this right, you say:
<< While there may be some benefits to be derived from gambling and alcohol, these benefits are outweighed by the harm>>”
When I saw that, I thought, what a can of worms this fellows opened…holy worms , but worms nonetheless!
[he swallows a mouthful from his glass of scotch]
I mean, to come to that conclusion one must have a heap of studies that quantity the costs and benefits of each, and derive a net result.
And, before you jump in and give us some link, to some obscure medical journal, about the evils of the demon drink. Any such analysis would have to include --all benefits --and I’m not even sure how one could determine what --all the benefits-- might be!
Or , did you perchance think , it might give you an edge to push your preferred creed, that just happens to discourage gambling & alcohol, and which up till now has received bugger all interest from the good fellows on OLO, ay ?
[ He finished off the glass and pours another & drinks the lot ]

Th Then, Greatful, I notice ya go on to sa ssay :
<<The benefits are not too difficult to think of: low health costs, less violence, crime, domestic violence etc. The costs? Probably very minor relative to the benefits>>
Which ssounds much the ssame ass the firsts but hass a little …just a little…more edge.
But you are aware aren’t you …ah, maybe noot, that with aaall of the above –al-co-hol iss at besst, an asssessessory
[ he pours another and drinks it ]

And lllets tesst your hypoth …Hypothss … Hypothos… ah, your idea.
In Saudi Araaabia which is doubly blessssed –having lashing of Islam and lackings of alcohol.They still have violence – lotsss of violence it ssseems :
http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/16-nails-removed-from-body-of-sri-lankan-maid-lt-ariyawathi/19610766
http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news%5C2010%5C8%5C59100_image_headline.html
Hypo …hypoth hypothiuesa disssproven! I’d ssay.
And worth a celebration –cheerss
[ he picks up the half empty bottle and sculls it

grateful: << Clearly it would be wrong to say, as you did, that coercion would be necessary, because Muslims prove this wrong (perhaps also Budhists). So it is a real alternative >>

Told you so.

Of course, there's no coercion exerted by Islam over its followers, is there?