Dr. Timothy Wright and Jane Caro are interviewed by a Christian group on their views on 'religion in schools'.

Two vimeo's here: http://vimeo.com/channels/111598#12224334

Is it possible to launch into a discussion, based on what these two are saying, to see if something useful can come of the thread.

The end section of film two, where they send out an appeal for the future, might provide the meatiest piece to work from, but it's worth watching both clips.

Useful? Well, these two are setting the boundaries for us to work within: do they both have good points, or one more so than the other, or neither?

The discussion is very NSW, and does not include the NSCP programme, so let's leave that out too.

Jane Caro is not 'the voice of all secular parents', and does not pretend to be either, but she seems to have a lot of shared ground with Dr. Wright, and he with her too.

Dr. Wright cannot be seen to speak for all 'private' schools either, or all faith schools, so let's not rip into him, or Jane, but see if a more 21st century resolution can be found to accommodate a broader view than obtains, in NSW and beyond, as far as 'religion in schools' goes.

I've only watched part one of this rollicking yarn so far, and I have to declare my bias up front: I'm of the view that all children are born equal, no? And I cannot see any valid defence for preferential education. Tim whats's his name does an excellent job of illustrating Caro's points; that private schools are necessarily elitist, for instance. Poor, or even middle class, families just cannot afford thousands of dollars for the privilege, don't you know. The pricing structure is actually the most desirable feature of the "best" private schools because it filters out the riff raff--not the "low-achievers" mind you, but those without the parental bucks to back them up, even if they are the smartest kids in town---or is IQ defined these days by the family's income!
Here in fact is an illustration of the malleability of the church and its various investments (with the possible exception of the Catholics), and their doctrinal adaptability when there's money to be made. One only need watch the way the headmaster prevaricates and fumbles over his own concessions, which he's forced to half articulate despite himself!
The whole thing is indefensible. But on to part two...

Not much more to add. Caro is much more conciliatory than I am. So far as I'm concerned there should be no religious instruction in state schools and even comparative religion shouldn't begin till grade seven. I have to commend the mediator, who did try to maintain a bipartisan stance. I guess even the Catholics are on the nose for promoting sexism--I was acknowledging their lower fee structures.
Private schools should be closed down as the elitist institutions they are; the wealthy would then be only to eager to pay more tax to be directed into high quality education for all kids.

no acknowledgement of the totally failed secular dogmas that has led to the desertion of the secular system. Teachers at most private schools have to have a standard of morality befitting our children. State schools can and do employ anyone.Home schooling is far superior to both systems.

Runner... "the totally failed secular dogmas that has led to the desertion of the secular system", you need to detail what you mean here or it is meaningless opinion.

Clearly public schools have not been 'deserted', they retain the vast majority of students.

But certain pockets of children do seem to have moved to private schools that a few years ago would not have been there.

That has more to do with Howard changing the rules for opening schools, which are now business ventures as much as anything else.

So, please detail what the 'secular dogmna's' are, so we can all understand what you mean.

As a matter of interest, are you a 'home schooling' parent, and if so, why in particular did you take that path?

I haven't been able to view the videos in their entirety yet - my dodgy regional Australia Telstra Broadband is a bit slow this evening. From what I have seen, though, I'll be coming back for more.

I think systemic Catholic schools should work harder to distance themselves from elitist, truly independent schools - even the elitist, non-systemic Catholic schools, of which there are quite a few. Cath Ed, at least in Queensland (I speak from experience in Brisbane and Townsville), has a considerable social justice focus: while it has a fee structure, there are considerable opportunities for parents who can't meet the pecuniary demands to put their kids through Catholic schools nonetheless. In the six years I worked for EQ, I almost forgot about the community focus of Catholic schools. The Catholic school at which I am currently employed goes out of its way to help not only the less fortunate students, but also their whole families. If you play around on the MySchool website, you can see that there is usually not much demographic difference between state schools and their Catholic neighbours.

At the end of the day, though, and back on topic, I see no place for religious instruction in state schools. It was a reaction against the overtly Anglican ethos (and religious instruction) in the state system that led to the proliferation of Catholic schools in Australia, established as an affordable alternative. I suggest that, if non-Catholic parents want their churches to have a hand in their kids' schooling, they should petition their churches to establish schools along the systemic Catholic model, rather than encouraging the 'sneaky' introduction of chaplains and religious instructors in state-run schools.