Dr. Timothy Wright and Jane Caro are interviewed by a Christian group on their views on 'religion in schools'.

Two vimeo's here: http://vimeo.com/channels/111598#12224334

Is it possible to launch into a discussion, based on what these two are saying, to see if something useful can come of the thread.

The end section of film two, where they send out an appeal for the future, might provide the meatiest piece to work from, but it's worth watching both clips.

Useful? Well, these two are setting the boundaries for us to work within: do they both have good points, or one more so than the other, or neither?

The discussion is very NSW, and does not include the NSCP programme, so let's leave that out too.

Jane Caro is not 'the voice of all secular parents', and does not pretend to be either, but she seems to have a lot of shared ground with Dr. Wright, and he with her too.

Dr. Wright cannot be seen to speak for all 'private' schools either, or all faith schools, so let's not rip into him, or Jane, but see if a more 21st century resolution can be found to accommodate a broader view than obtains, in NSW and beyond, as far as 'religion in schools' goes.

I've only watched part one of this rollicking yarn so far, and I have to declare my bias up front: I'm of the view that all children are born equal, no? And I cannot see any valid defence for preferential education. Tim whats's his name does an excellent job of illustrating Caro's points; that private schools are necessarily elitist, for instance. Poor, or even middle class, families just cannot afford thousands of dollars for the privilege, don't you know. The pricing structure is actually the most desirable feature of the "best" private schools because it filters out the riff raff--not the "low-achievers" mind you, but those without the parental bucks to back them up, even if they are the smartest kids in town---or is IQ defined these days by the family's income!
Here in fact is an illustration of the malleability of the church and its various investments (with the possible exception of the Catholics), and their doctrinal adaptability when there's money to be made. One only need watch the way the headmaster prevaricates and fumbles over his own concessions, which he's forced to half articulate despite himself!
The whole thing is indefensible. But on to part two...

Not much more to add. Caro is much more conciliatory than I am. So far as I'm concerned there should be no religious instruction in state schools and even comparative religion shouldn't begin till grade seven. I have to commend the mediator, who did try to maintain a bipartisan stance. I guess even the Catholics are on the nose for promoting sexism--I was acknowledging their lower fee structures.
Private schools should be closed down as the elitist institutions they are; the wealthy would then be only to eager to pay more tax to be directed into high quality education for all kids.

no acknowledgement of the totally failed secular dogmas that has led to the desertion of the secular system. Teachers at most private schools have to have a standard of morality befitting our children. State schools can and do employ anyone.Home schooling is far superior to both systems.

Runner... "the totally failed secular dogmas that has led to the desertion of the secular system", you need to detail what you mean here or it is meaningless opinion.

Clearly public schools have not been 'deserted', they retain the vast majority of students.

But certain pockets of children do seem to have moved to private schools that a few years ago would not have been there.

That has more to do with Howard changing the rules for opening schools, which are now business ventures as much as anything else.

So, please detail what the 'secular dogmna's' are, so we can all understand what you mean.

As a matter of interest, are you a 'home schooling' parent, and if so, why in particular did you take that path?

I haven't been able to view the videos in their entirety yet - my dodgy regional Australia Telstra Broadband is a bit slow this evening. From what I have seen, though, I'll be coming back for more.

I think systemic Catholic schools should work harder to distance themselves from elitist, truly independent schools - even the elitist, non-systemic Catholic schools, of which there are quite a few. Cath Ed, at least in Queensland (I speak from experience in Brisbane and Townsville), has a considerable social justice focus: while it has a fee structure, there are considerable opportunities for parents who can't meet the pecuniary demands to put their kids through Catholic schools nonetheless. In the six years I worked for EQ, I almost forgot about the community focus of Catholic schools. The Catholic school at which I am currently employed goes out of its way to help not only the less fortunate students, but also their whole families. If you play around on the MySchool website, you can see that there is usually not much demographic difference between state schools and their Catholic neighbours.

At the end of the day, though, and back on topic, I see no place for religious instruction in state schools. It was a reaction against the overtly Anglican ethos (and religious instruction) in the state system that led to the proliferation of Catholic schools in Australia, established as an affordable alternative. I suggest that, if non-Catholic parents want their churches to have a hand in their kids' schooling, they should petition their churches to establish schools along the systemic Catholic model, rather than encouraging the 'sneaky' introduction of chaplains and religious instructors in state-run schools.

A really interesting conversation that opens up a broad range of issues in the private/ public debate on education.
Keeping to the thrust of this thread though, i didn't feel that Dr Wright in any way suggested that Public schools should have to have RE. Jane was favorable to studying religions in a more analytic way.
Despite my standing firmly against RE in primary schools, I don't disagree with her but preferably only in the latter high school years.
Trying to avoid falling into the pattern of previous threads on this subject i rather ask what is the genuine educational value of RE and can this be better served by any other approach to imparting the core information that is seen as important.
I know this is leaning to the ethics classes, but what is the core information that RE offers that cannot be covered in a non religious manner?
Probably the most key point i heard was that the freely available and now legally required education of the population is central to the strength of our democracy. This i strongly support, a mind that has the essential education in the three "R's" and a grounding in basic science and history is capable of questioning their community's values and then form their own opinion. I do question though whether RE offers an understanding of community values and morality or does it simply engender a focus belonging to only a part of that community. If so it would best be left out of education in the public sector.
As for private religious schools, we live in a free country with free speech so i can not see any objection. This of course includes islamic schools. Freedom is freedom, you ban one you ban them all.

I agree wholeheartedly, nairbe.

nairbe... as I understand the history of 'RE' (SRE, CRE, RE, RI in different states) we are lumbered with it in the 21st century because of the fears the Christian churches had back in the 1800s, when public education got going, and churches were relieved of being the sole educators in the Colonies.

You can hear the NSW Anglicans screeching about 'being promised this in 1860', and still expecting the reluctant promise then to be adhered to without review all these years later.

There was a Denominational War back then, with Anglicans fighting Papists and both fighting 'the others', but all were Christian, which is why legislation only refers to 'denominations'.

The role of 'RE' was only ever to keep the flock together, and recruit more if possible, but the rules allowed very little poaching, then.

Now, certainly in Qld, the bulk of RI volunteers (they are NOT teachers) come from the renewalist wing of Christianity, and they do actively seek to recruit from the 'unchurched' to their own pews.

The activity is poorly run, organised and is non-educational.

It should be ditched, all around the nation, and an alternative form of educating students about major belief systems should be inserted into the school curriculum, delivered by school teachers, not a hotch-potch of (perhaps) well-meaning, but unprofessional and unskilled volunteer evangelisers.

As for faith schools, they are one thing, but public funding of faith schools is another.

These schools, as Jane suggests, undermine the collective needs of democracy to have some sense of 'unity within diversity', if I can borrow from a secular state with a preponderance of Muslims living in it.

Faith schools are as undermining of social cohesion as are private shopping centres and housing enclaves, be they for the wealthy or 'the poor folk'.

As Jane said, public education was a genuine 'education revolution', Gillard's pathetic efforts are nowhere near that.

A reinjection of 'revolution' into the education sphere is overdue, and we could start by ensuring public schools were genuinely secular.

Here's a goody from the UK:

UK: Private schools forced to offer more free places

Graeme Paton, Telegraph, 7 July 2010

In an unprecedented move, two independent schools have become the first in England and Wales to increase the amount of money set aside for bursaries under pressure from the official charities regulator.

The move could have serious implications for a number of other fee-paying schools as they battle the threat of falling income in the economic downturn.

Last night, private school leaders warned that the rules could “jeopardise the future” of some schools.

The Independent Schools Council is now seeking a judicial review of guidelines issued by the Charity Commission amid claims it is acting “illegally”.

Under Labour's 2006 Charities Act, fee-paying schools are no longer automatically entitled to charitable status.

They must prove they provide "public benefit" to remain in business and retain tax breaks worth around £100m a year.

See that, all those fees from parents, and a tax free ride of over $200m a year! And that's just for starters.

Underfunding of public schools and overfunding of private schools is a national disgrace.

Furthermore....As most religious people have only a very simplistic knowledge of the Bible and it's teachings....one could hardly call that Education.

Perhaps these illustrate the problems

1. What does the word apocalypse mean? If you thought "end times" or similar you are wrong!

2. The Baptism and Temptation of Jesus -

The Baptism told for Children...http://tinyurl.com/2wkryhp

Post Baptism, the heavens open up and the holy spirit (spirit of God) descends upon Jesus...and then GOD allegedly says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".

Here are biblical versions...http://tinyurl.com/26b6q63 (NOTE...click on the white V to the left of the verse, it will give you various interpretations.)

Surely Jesus knew who he was - Matthew 3:15. But of course he did, to many, he is also God. After Matthew 3:16 he definitely did!

How silly is the temptation?

The Temptation told for Children...http://tinyurl.com/3ywl5wu

The Biblical version...http://tinyurl.com/2b47frq

Jesus led off into the wilderness by the spirit...(no less)...is allegedly tempted by the devil.

Jesus is offered:

Firstly food...afterall Jesus/God was hungry...lol

Secondly all the kingdoms of the world (but he's God/Jesus he already owns them)

Thirdly he tries to get Jesus to jump off the temple (Wow a human wouldn't even fall for that one)...lol

It's pretty ridiculous isn't it?

Jesus knows he is the Son of God/God...So knowing this why would he be tempted, even for a nanosecond, by the lowly devil, he saw him fall?...Luke 10:18...http://tinyurl.com/2uv4o6r

Surely Jesus/God is smarter than that?...He made everything...even the devil, he owns everything.

Furthermore if God/Jesus knows all things past, present and future then he must have known he would pass the temptations...He/she/it is God afterall!

And this is the rubbish we include in education?

If the Bible is inerrant and Christians don't know their Bibles,

Do we teach:

God is a vengeful, jealous God?...Exodus 20:5 http://tinyurl.com/28zaubd

Not keeping the Sabbath you will die?...Exodus 31:15 http://tinyurl.com/27w9mb9

What Moses did?...Numbers 31:17 http://tinyurl.com/32sbzge

OR do we fib in Religious Education by leaving these and other yucky bits out?

Before we head down the track of 'underfunding' and 'overfunding', here's something to consider:

http://www.apfacts.org.au/documents/schools_funding_brochure.pdf

I am aware that the 'hidden agenda' of this brochure is a government attempting to explain and justify an unpopular funding process, but the numbers really do speak for themselves. At the end of the day, fee-paying parents relieve a considerable funding burden from the government sector, as do organisations such as churches who contribute funds to these schools as well.

Sorry for this off-topic content - I just thought it might bring some clarity to the issue.

Anyway, obviously I am in a biased position when I support public funding of faith schools, so I'll lay that out there straight away. I do think, though, that if the faith schools are honest, open and accountable with their practices, there is a place for public funding. Parents make choices about the type of education their children receive. Perhaps, by sending their kids to Catholic schools, they do challenge social cohesion. I don't know. Certainly my current crop of students seem to engage quite well socially with the last batch from the state school 2km away. Every day, I'm bombarded with questions along the lines of 'do you know ...' or 'did you teach ...'. The real difference is that these students' parents have chosen an ethos through which they want their kids to be educated. As taxpayers, I think they should have that right.

Keep religion out of schools. Religion has no place outside the home.

TBC

you repeat the mantra

'That has more to do with Howard changing the rules for opening schools, which are now business ventures as much as anything else.'

I suggest it has more to do with the lack of respect for teachers, lack of respect for fellow students and the failure to teach right and wrong (absolutes). You are fooling yourself to blame Mr Howard despite your hatred. In the State school where I live teachers have been bashed, drugs are common place and teachers are crowd managers. This is not unusual in many State schools despite more funding than most schools being received The system has reaped the idiotic secular dogmas it has sown. Of course the supporters of the dogma always cry that more funding will help the problem. What rubbish. The philosophical basis is the problem not the money. The fact that parents are willing to sacrifice and pay to send their kids to private schools were absolutes are taught. boundaries re-inforced and the dogmas of evolution are not pushed down people's throats speaks volumes.

btw My wife and I home schooled our kids for a number of years after having them in one of these zoos. The kids are now achieving highly at uni level. I doubt very much if that would of been the case if left to the secular system. Some private schools who fail to teach biblical principals reap the same fruit as those of secular schools.

Otokonoko....If you are going to link that document as evidence, even with your disclaimer, we should link this also

http://www.schoolparents.canberra.net.au/Funding%20Myths.pdf

It is important to differentiate between the ordinary Catholic School and Lower End Private School (which I don't worry too much about) and other Private Schools.

But what problem never gets mentioned?

Expelled kids from Private Schools generally go to the Government Schools system.

If a school takes fees to educate a child in the first place, why should it be allowed to dump that child onto the Government Schools, when the going gets tough?

Doesn't this cop out put further pressure on the Government Schools system, whilst the Private School system does a Pontius Pilate with the child?

Furthermore Private Schools get a massive advantage by somehow being allowed to interview students prior to enrolment, which to me seems discriminatory...and the Government System who gets the rest.

However, I also don’t believe Government Schools should be allowed to expel students so that those students get dumped on other schools.

I am a strong supporter of teachers. In my experience, most teachers are overworked, underpaid, underappreciated professionals who are expected to perform miracles with limited resources.

Education has always been underfunded and is always at the whim of vote buying politicians.

Apocolypse (to save you time)

The Greek word for apocalypse....Apokálypsis means "lifting the veil" - NOT End TIMES or END OF DAYS as is commonly preached.

About 400 years ago there was a study called "apokalupsis eschaton" - "lifting the veil on the end times" and that through poor teaching the "eschaton" was dropped and Apocolypse was then continually misinterpreted as end times or end of days.

"Eschatology" comes from two Greek words last, and discourse or study

"The study of the end times" be it an era, an age, a life etc.

No-one knows if Revelations was translated from an Aramaic document into the Greek, and so this probably complicates these terms even further, because, we can't even get the Greek to English translations right.

Do Christians/Religions/Preachers really know their Bibles well enough to call it Education?

Runner... "The system has reaped the idiotic secular dogmas it has sown" what are these dogmas though?

You keep repeating this line without explaining yourself.

My children's state high school took in the drug runners from the local boys grammar school, and the students who were expelled from the Catholic 'quality' school for shooting at other students on a school camp, as well as taking in the 'general' thugs and school bullies chucked out of the boys and girls 'faith' schools in town, a steady diet of children whose parents had paid a lot of money, for nothing so it seems... not to mention the kids that get murdered at Catholic schools up here in Qld... and so on.

I wouldn't bother trying to line up violence in the state schools against violence in the faith schools if I were you.

I think you should accept that most schools are rife with drugs, public and private alike, and so is our society, which is copied in our schools.

Workplaces are rife with drugs, and homes.

Evolution is taught in most faith schools, with the exception of the Christian madrassahs were ignorance is King.

TBC

'My children's state high school took in the drug runners from the local boys grammar school'

Hence my point. These drug runners should not be allowed in schools. Any school with any decency would protect the majority of students instead of bowing to 'children's rights with no responsibility which is part of secular dogma. Those responsible for allowing these Grammar drug runners in the school should be held to account. Anyone honest person knows how very weak the system is. The Grammar school at least had the decency to expel these kids who think nothing of ruining lives for others.

Ah, although you decline to explain directly what you mean about 'secular values', you offer an insight here.

The faith school fails to instil 'Christian solid living values' in its very expensive students, already expelled from high status Brisbane faith schools for drugs, and casts them out once more.

The public school picks them up, in a Christian manner, and tries to help them gain an education without holding their folly against them, and yet you would prefer they be denied all assistance and cast out into the desert, or with the swine.

I see Runner... I am beginning to understand the true essence of Runners forgiving Christian nature at last.

"The Grammar school at least had the decency to expel these kids" oh dear Runner... you really are not very 'forgiving' are you, not so very 'tolerant', not so very 'loving', like Jesus clearly was, eh?

I suspect the high school undertook its task through gritted teeth, and certainly kept it quiet from newspapers and parents as much as they could, but, 'Jesus' Runner, if you can forgive me for that, isn't that what you stand for? 'Love and caring for the unhelped?

Isn't 'looking after the despised' part of the Jesus schtick?

Where do you lot go when you have ditched the essentials?

TBC

You have a very warped view of compassion and forgiveness if you think letting drug dealers run amock in schools is part of it. You obviously care more about them than you do the kids whose lives will be ruined by these people. Then again that is exactly the problem with secular dogma (everyone else's fault and no personal responsibility). Envy of those who sacrifice to send their kids to private schools and then angry that they won't tolerate the intolerable. Why am I surprised.

Runner... I am compelled to call you 'foolish' for your latest comments. I'm sorry, but I have no option.

Am I to suppose that you would cut off their hands, bury them to their necks and stone them to death, to achieve 'justice'?

Really, you are blind to your utterances aren't you?

These foolish children were dealt with by the courts, and sent off to gain an education, to try to make sure they became useful citizens, finally.

Even the Pope forgives his priests for buggering children by the gross dozens across the world, are you going to denounce him for being 'secular'?

Revolting as the Catholic church is, it's hardly 'secular' is it?

In order for us all to enjoy as carefree a life as possible, we have to look out for our neighbours, and in turn trust that they will look out for us too.

It's called, 'living in a community', and one of its greatest promoters is someone who you might, apparently, know nothing about, Jesus Christ.

Of course, his message was not a new one, or else we would not have reached his time would we?

Now, caring for people does not mean you condone their actions Runner.

But it does mean that we try to equip those who have limited skills to survive, with more.

Including children who sell drugs, and those who shoot at other children... (anyway, a few more years and those kids would be 'our heroes' in the armed forces).

You must be a fringe dweller Runner.

Come on in, and join the community, and enjoy a little 'difference', even if you do not approve of it.

Besides, it is the friction formed between the poles of behaviour that drive the community forwards, and sometimes backwards too no doubt, but mainly forwards.

Thanks for the link, Opinionated2. Like mine, yours obviously has an axe to grind. Between the two, though, we may get a clearer picture of what is happening with funding. As with mine, the numbers don't lie - but in both cases, the numbers are carefully selected and 'quarantined' to support the overall argument. Mine dealt with actual funding while carefully ignoring increases; yours dealt with increases while carefully ignoring actual funding.

Like I said, between the two, we might get a clearer picture. One thing is clear, though: without the public-private partnership and cost-sharing between the government and private sector in faith schools, those schools couldn't exist. Without the faith schools, though, the state authorities would have to fork out an awful lot of money to fund places for their new students. Like it or not, we are stuck with private schools for some time to come.

The Blue Cross: I agree with Okotonoko on facts regarding part government funding of private schools. This funding is provided for both religious and non-religious students in addition to the contributions paid for services supporting disabled students. Private schools within Australia have always taken on a high ratio of the population's students. Okotonoko is correct on all points he/she has stated.

I agree with the concept of religion kept out of the state school systems for a number of reasons; and if the thread's here tomorrow will disclose.

Having had children in both systems, along with their friends, in both systems, I am somewhat objective, and wish to say that certain students of both private and public systems within the state I reside, have all endured physical attacks.

My son's school mates last term viewed a group of youths from a state school pulling up out the front of his high school, randomly threatening kids waiting for buses with knives and a machete. The '22' was lying in their boot to give the kids a scare. Interestingly, quite a few were farm kids, standing by the kerb right in the firing line. These kids, according to parents and older students, seemed quite unfazed and unaffected by the incident.

On the other hand, violence occurs within private schools, including the schools in our State. Obviously it occurs within any schools, whether it be State or Private.

Best to stick with facts and not emotion

tbc

'These foolish children were dealt with by the courts, and sent off to gain an education, to try to make sure they became useful citizens, finally.'

You are obviously unaware how pathetic and weak our court system has become. You also fail to show any compassion for the kids trying to do the right thing and having these thugs bully them. With opinions like yours its no wonder the zoos are being abandoned. Please spare me your new found 'compassion' and judgemental attitude towards others. You have no idea how compassionate I am or am not. A favorite tactic of the idiotic left is to somehow pretend they have a mortgage on compassion. Giving drug dealers ten or twenty changes rarely works and I am not prepared to risk my kids with them. You might.

Runner... you've lost it mate!

"Please spare me your new found 'compassion' and judgemental attitude towards others"... Runner, you seem to be very good at judging and very short on compassion my friend... just read your words back to yourself, as for my compassion... I was born with it comrade, I didn't try to squeeze it from a book of auld wives tales and jumbled myths knicked from older religions.

"You have no idea how compassionate I am or am not"...indeed I do have a very good idea, from what you scribble here, a lighthouse shines your path.

"A favorite tactic of the idiotic left is to somehow pretend they have a mortgage on compassion"... come come, such emotive terminology Runner... do tell us just who holds the mortgage on compassion... you perchance?

The amount of money handed out to private schools in this country is indefensible. Government schools struggle with inadequate funding while the exclusive wealthy schools receive more than they should. It is a policy that has never been adequately justified, because it never can be.

As far as the teaching of religious doctrine is concerned, there is too much of it and I largely agree with what Jane Carow had to say in the video. Indoctrination of young kids pretty well guarantees a flock member for life. Teach the same children about various religions with no intention to indoctrinate and then let them make up their own minds as to whether they will join a flock and your chances of them becoming a lifelong member are greatly reduced. Proselitising and indoctrination are not roles the school should play. Comparative religious instruction is a very different and necessary thing. And worlds apart from what currently goes on in our schools.

I have no idea of the State you reside in Ditch.

Many of the private primary schools within the State in which I reside missed out on their state government funding ten years ago that both schools and parents were lobbying, in order to improve services for the disabled. This was repeated years later until a change in government produced a more positive outcome, that of, a small portion of funding which was granted to government schools.

Regardless of government funding, and the fact that a good percentage of the children were from non-religious backgrounds, the private schools raised revenue via their fetes, walkathons, trivia nights, raffle tickets and chocolate drives to ensure services for the disabled were upgraded.

The state primary school my daughter attended during her first few years were granted funding by the government for every service erected and completed. Similarly there are children from many religious backgrounds educated within State government schools.

The main outcome for any school is that services are met across the board for all children.

Regarding religious teachings within schools, given this is the main thread issue, as I stated previously, religious teachings within State schools should be omitted [in other words, taught at home].

Parents of children who wish to further teach their children religiously, continue or renew their childrens faith, can do so within their own religious educational environment ie private schools.

I'm from NSW. I agree with you in the teaching of religion at school as I said in my posts.

There is a considerable effort put into fund raising in public schools here by the P&C Association. My wife was heavily involved, including as P&C President and committee member at Ryde East, Hornsby Girls and Normanhurst Boys. The main objection to private school funding is that their relative wealth level, derived from expensive fees, only adds to the wealth gap with the public system. Why add more when they are already less in need?