Finally, Philo

Concerning education and woman please read the following article : http://www.elanthemag.com/index.php/site/featured_articles_detail/muslimahs_leading_the_science_revolution-nid913348720/
Here is an excerpt:

"According to the latest report by UNESCO, women in Saudi Arabia now outnumber western women in worldwide university enrollment and graduation rates. Furthermore, 13 Muslim countries produce a higher percentage of women science graduates than the US and up to 40% of Saudi doctors are women."

You may also like to take a walk through any of the main university campuses and notice the number of "hijabis". From my own experience, at the postgraduate level, it was not uncommon to find the wife studying for a PhD while the husband supported both financially and with the children...and i'm referring to international students.

Dear grateful,

You wrote: "it leaves the community defenseless against a 'culture' that fosters the attitude that people are objects of sexually gratification.

Atheists have a lot to say about peoples rights (particularly those of adults), but they are generally silent when it comes to responsibilities (notably towards children)."

You are prejudiced against atheists. Atheists can be moral and have respect for human beings without having to invent an Allah or a God to tell them to be good.

Possibly 40% of Saudi doctors are women. They can only examine female patients, and male doctors can only examine male patients. The Saudis are so sexually obsessed that they can't accept that a doctor can be professional and can examine and treat a patient who has a different sex from them. Female doctors can treat male patients, and male doctors can treat female patients. However, even if 40% of doctors are women I doubt that many, if any, are in positions of authority. I doubt that they supervise male doctors in Saudi Arabia.

I looked up your article. I clicked on the link to the UNESCO report, and it was unable to get there. I doubt that the article accurately reported it or that there is such a report.

Atheists have not blown up schools like the Muslim Taliban have.

You are asking me to believe your religion when you want me to accept that Mohammed had a divine revelation. ALL religions are invented. Nobody has a divine revelation. Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Buddha and others invented religions. Mohammed invented Islam, and the others invented their religions. People who follow religions claim that their religion is the word of God if it is Bahai'i, Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Buddhist, Hindus and other also have a belief in the supernatural. There is no such thing as divine revelation because ther eis no such thing as divinity.

Mohammed and the others invent religions and want other people to believe it. One doesn't have to prove all religions are invented. There simply is no proof that they weren't.

<<You are prejudiced against atheists. Atheists can be moral and have respect for human beings without having to invent an Allah or a God to tell them to be good.>>

This is the second time you have accused me of being prejudiced. I have not pre-judged atheists. If anything you have pre-judged me. i know what i know of atheists from those i have grown up with and certainly realise that one does not have to believe in Allah to "be moral" and "have respect for human beings". In any case name-calling doesn’t help unless you’re trying to dodge an issue..

My criticism is this: atheists are not in a position to DEFEND the community against a 'culture' that fosters the attitude that people are objects of sexually gratification. In addition, i would argue that generally atheists are in no position to exercise the moral authority necessary to guide children away from this sort of behaviour (as well as failing abysmally with regard to alcohol and drugs).

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<<Mohammed and the others invent religions and want other people to believe it. One doesn't have to prove all religions are invented. There simply is no proof that they weren't.>>

I did not ask for it to be proved “for all religions”. Anyway, we are back to the statement: "Muhammad invented the religion", but now anticipating that I will ask you to support your statement, you assert you have no need to because "there is simply is no proof" that the religion was not invented.

Similarly your other assertion <<There is no such thing as divine revelation because there is no such thing as divinity.>> rests on the notion that there is no evidence.

The problem here is that just because you have not seen any evidence doesn't mean there is no evidence. Furthermore, in light of my previous posts you should be a bit more modest in your claims.

Your statement can be questioned on several grounds. The first is the evidence that we have of the honesty and integrity, not to mention sanity, of Muhammad.
Secondly, there is the evidence the Qur'aan has not been corrupted for over 1400 years, conjoined with the fact that this is what is predicted in the Qur'aan itself (i.e. the Qur'an explicitly states that it will not be corrupted). This is quite an achievement!

Thirdly, the Qur'aan itself is an evidence, both in terms of its content and its unique style.

So in short, you are wrong to say "there is simply is no proof" since there is prima face evidence which casts doubt on your assertion. And since the evidence conflicts with your explanation of events of over 1400 ago, then you should be prepared to show how your statement that "Muhammad invented the religion" can be reconciled with this evidence. From what you have previously said, you have no idea how to do this and therefore no grounds for making such a statement.

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<<You are asking me to believe your religion when you want me to accept that Mohammed had a divine revelation>>

This is far from the truth. Far from insisting you believe because of this or that reason, I've laid bare what i think are key areas in which Islam's claims can actually be UNDERMINED and invite people to try. That's it. Please do not distort what i have said.

BTW: I do not support Taliban or the Saudi government, and as my very first post in this thread highlights, Islamic fundamentalism is as much an enemy of Islam as it is of Western civilisation. After-all , this thread about examining the meaning of fundamentalism!

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In relation to woman, as i said to Philo, have a bit of a wander through a university campus and you'll notice quite a few hijabs and quite possibly a niqab.

<<I looked up your article. I clicked on the link to the UNESCO report, and it was unable to get there. I doubt that the article accurately reported it or that there is such a report.>>

As the author of the following article (Farkhonda Hassan, a Professor of Geology at the American University of Cairo), male chauvinism should not be conflated with the teachings of Islam: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/290/5489/55.

<<In many Muslim countries, gender-based discrimination, coupled with social and cultural barriers, limits access and participation of women in higher education. Some people attribute these barriers to the teachings of Islam, but this is false. The teachings of the Holy Prophet of Islam emphasize "the acquiring of knowledge as bounden duties of each Muslim from the cradle to the grave" and that "the quest for knowledge and science is obligatory upon every Muslim man and woman."* One-eighth (that is, 750 verses) of the Quraan (the Muslim Holy Book) exhort believers to study nature, to reflect, and to make the best use of reason in their search for the ultimate truth.>>

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