David F.

I'll pick up on a few points briefly. i hope to return later, but Ramadan will be starting soon and this means a lot of prayer, Qur'aan recitation, not mention friends and food (all in the evenings of course for a month :-))...its a beautiful religion.

To say " I gave a good explanation of morality." is not a defense. I said your explanation contradicted our own experience on an innate knowledge of what is right and wrong.

You say: Muhammad invented the religion, but i would doubt you have every sought to explain how this explanation could be reconciled with what we know of him, the people around him and the events.

You can begin by considering what your statement implies. It implies that Muhammad was a liar. I can provide support for the view that he was, on the contrary of a character that earned him the nick-name of al-Siddique (the truthful) and al-Alameen (the trustworthy), including testimoney from his enemies. Again, can you provide grounds for saying that he was in fact a liar (which are not simply founded on your belief that there is no God)?

The term Islamofascism is used in the book Lewis co-author with Buntzie Ellis Churchill, "Islam: The Religion and the People", p166.

must go,
take care

Dear grateful,

Mohammed may have been completely sincere. He may have been merely hallucinating and believed he was telling the truth. You demand that other people believe what you belive. That is an unreasonable demand. Maybe Mohammed was a liar. I don't know. I certainly didn't call him a liar or infer that he was a liar. I don't even know that there was such a person as Mohammed. His existence may be a fiction.

You believe in the truth of your religion. Other people believe in the truth of their religion. Fine. You may believe what you like.

When you demand that I believe in the truth of your religion that is unreasonable.

I make the same statement to any believers in any religion - not just to Muslims.

You don't have an innate knowledge of right and wrong. You believe in your religion's view of morality and are demanding that I accept your view. You do not have any innate knowledge. You have belief and call it innate knowledge. Every society has to develop a morality to live together. That is not just true for humans. That is true for other species, too. Wolves generally don't attack another wolf in the same pack. That is necessary for wolves to live together. That is part of the wolf morality. The difference between your morality and the wolf morality is that wolves don't claim their morality comes from God or Allah.

When you say 'you know' you really are saying 'I believe'. Christians have said the same thing. They ask others to believe in the resurrection of Jesus because there were many 'witnesses' to that event. One can make up stories about witnesses just as one can make up stories about Mohammed earning the name of al-Siddique (the truthful) and al-Alameen (the trustworthy), including testimony from his enemies.

Thank you for your reference.

I received in my mail box a pamphlet on Islam which is both deceptive and laughable.

It claims that "Islam does not permit terrorism" which is a blatent lie and deceitful as most terrorists acts performed upon innocent people today are done in the Name of Allah.

It claims "Islam poineered rights for women long before the modern era". Again a lie and deceitful. Why is it that women are discouraged from education in countries where sharia law is enforced i.e. Afganistan. Why is it that Islam upholds the testimony of a woman is worth only half that of a man. Why is it that the only honour killings happen on muslim women in a free country like Australia. Why is that Muslim men treat non Muslim women as no better than prostitutes to be raped in the name of Allah? Ask female teachers in schools how Muslim youth treat them. Yes they poineered female rights and decided to treat them as second class.

David F
The only thing i have 'demanded' of you and others is a discussion based on reason and statements backed by evidence. In terms of the evidence that would expose my own faith to critical examinantion, i have laid it on the line explicitly and in detail.

On the other hand, when i simply ask you to defend your statement that "Muhammad invented the religion", you describe this as a <<demand that I believe in the truth of your religion>>. Does this mean your belief that God does not exist is non-negotiable? What happened to evidence and reason, not to mention 'proof beyond a reasonable double'?

Philo,
The pamphlets are quite accurate. Prior to Islam woman were treated as chattel to the extent that the father could inherit his son's wife! Female babies were buried alive, and of course there was not right to inheritance.
As the following verse from the Qur’aan makes clear, Islam eliminate these injustices:
<<O ye who believe! It is not lawful for you forcibly to inherit the women (of your deceased kinsmen), nor (that) ye should put constraint upon them that ye may take away a part of that which ye have given them, unless they be guilty of flagrant lewdness. But consort with them in kindness, for if ye hate them it may happen that ye hate a thing wherein Allah hath placed much good.(4:19)>>

Islam guaranteed the wife and daughters claims on inheritance, rights to divorce and requires of the husband that they share the housework (following the sunnah of the Prophet). In a number of verses of the Qur'aan, such as the following, woman and men are explicitly spoken of a equals:
<<For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patent and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise-- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (Qur'an 33:35)>>
And there are a number of verses defending the honour of woman. So the pamphlets are quite accurate in their claims.
cont..

Philo,

Concerning your remark <<Why is that Muslim men treat non Muslim women as no better than prostitutes to be raped in the name of Allah>>

This tells me you have little concern for rape victims..otherwise you would want people to seriously examine the real causes. You might start with your local newsagent then the TV, before proceeding to the material that is freely available on the internet.

This is the real impact of an atheist ideology: it leaves the community defenseless against a 'culture' that fosters the attitude that people are objects of sexually gratification.

Atheists have a lot to say about peoples rights (particularly those of adults), but they are generally silent when it comes to responsibilities (notably towards children).