Dear Pelly

you said:

"As a Christian of course you cannot see these texts the same way as an atheist ie. Bible and Koran, as simply creations of man."

You are quite right :) but the other side of that coin is this. "A Muslim also sees his holy book, as the Christian sees the Bible"

and I think this is why a lot of well meaning atheists tend to leap to the defense of Muslims (even when "islam" is being criticized) because the Quran is not very important to them as Atheists.

A totally understandable situation.

Thanx for your understanding about the genocide and rape :) Genocide? It's definitely there.. absolutely.. commands to rape? nope..not a syllable. The genocide needs to be understood in historical context, there were specific reasons for it, and the only way to see them would be to read Genesis and Exodus, possibly Numbers and Joshua would help also. What there is NOT though..is any hint of generalized command for 'the people of God' (which would include the Old Testament Jews and NT Christians) to wage war against unbelievers. This is most important because there is in the Quran. (Surah 9:29)

Those books and incidents 'live' to me in special way because of having lived in tribal areas where this kind of thing was 'par for the course' just 2 generations ago..and some of those living today still have the scars to prove it :) Literally.

You can see how David F is very passionate against Christianity, and his words could indeed be seen as 'inciting hatred'....but he and I agree to disagree.. I don't think he causes too much harm or that suddenly people are going to jump up and start harassing Christians because of his words. David might reflect though....how he would feel if Christians were 'now' expressing the same tones about Jews.

..do for others.....

Interesting argument. Which is worse? Christianity or Islam?

Well here's my two cents worth.

Regardless of what Christians have done in the past I think I would find life tolerable in a place where people practiced some approximation of the teachings attributed to (probably non-existent) Jesus.

I think we would all find life INTOLERABLE in a place in which people practiced the teachings attributed to "Allah" via a (non-existent) "angel" called Gibril and the (probably non-existent) merchant warrior called Muhammad.

As an aside much more of the koran is devoted to how bad kafirs are and how Muslims should treat kafirs (badly) than on how to be a good Muslim. That is simply not the case when we look at the teachings attributed to Jesus.

One of the more bizarre features of the koran is the interest Allah seems to display in Muhammad's personal sex life. As a perusal of Sura 33 indicates, basically Muhammad has special dispensation to have sex with whoever he wants including his daughter in law. (See specifically 33:37 & 33:50)

33:50 is worth repeating:

"O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; "

All this seems to support my theory that if Muhammad existed he was in reality an early incarnation of Monty Python.

Steven

For Chrissakes which is worse? Islam or Christianity?

The extremes of both are downright dangerous. Along with a plethora religious cults which continue to ruin lives.

But Islam is a perverse holy grail for you. You can't just discuss religion in a comparative sense, can you? Always with the mozzie bashing. Careful, you'll wind up like AGIR.

Regards m'dear

To add to what David f has said in regards to religion providing (or more accurately: asserting) the answers: just because there are unknowns, that doesn’t mean that we just make something up. Concluding with, “I don’t know”, is a lot more honest than choosing/inventing something that makes us feel good.

Oh, and Boaz, the Bible does condone rape. It even goes into how men can treat their sex slaves.

When I was about 25 I read most of the Bible (I think it was the Old Testament). Half way through I was was put off by the aggressive and primitive nature of the language, not having been raised with this as the 'norm'. It was quite foreign and a bit disconcerting. The bits gleaned from the Koran resonate the same.

Many of the Christians posting on OLO argue that the harshest references in the Bible must be understood in context. I believe the Koran must also be read in context - a product of the times it was written.

Most Christians I know are true to the positive ideals of their faith and are not going around committing atrocious acts on their fellow man in the name of God, although some Presidents are happy to involve God in decisions about Defence matters.

Most Muslims I have met are the same. They are not planning jihad on non-believers.

I do believe that Christianity is more evolved than Islam, only in that cultural practices influence perceptions about Islam and this is more about modernisation and education than dogma. Dogma and ignorance can be a dangerous combination in any faith.

In countries where Islam is dominant I would dress appropriately lest I be attacked or set upon by fundamentalists, the same walking through some parts of Israel where Orthodoxy has a strong hold. Thus far in Australia I have not been set upon by any religious folk, although I know of some cases where women not in hijab have been verbally abused by Muslims, and women in hijab have been verbally abused by non-Muslims.

Like stevenmeyer, as an atheist I am more comfortable in a Christian dominated society, because it is what I know having been born and raised within this culture. But I try not to make uneducated assumptions about Muslims and find most of them equally as secular, democratic and fair minded as most Christians.

Thank Pelican.

For your wonderful critique. Stevenlmeyer take note.

I too prefer to live in a Christian dominated country rather than an Islamic one. Simply because Christianity has evolved a bit more than Islam. However, it still has a long way to go while people such as Pell, Nile, Fielding, Abbott are still highly influential in the lives of Australians.

I don't believe that the Old and New Testaments offer anything superior to the Qur'an. Rather it is the interpretations that are made with a higher level of sophistication. For example, Christian women no longer have to cover their heads in church, whereas Muslim women are urged to cover up even in public.

I believe Islam will accommodate itself into contemporary mainstream eventually. This process could be hastened if all the perks (tax breaks etc) were eliminated from ALL religions. This habit of treating religion as 'special', above criticism is way past its use-by date. As a philosophy, religion is in no way superior to other ideologies and as it is based on faith rather than fact, continues to limit itself and increase its irrelevance in contemporary society.