I know we have seen all sorts of activists, and all the rest on here discussing this. But I have to see ONE of them suggest that the primary problem (not a symptom) on the majority of Aboriginal Communities, is the absolute disbelief in the "Rule of Law".

I will attempt to show that this disbelief, stemming as it does from years of abuse of the same by Police, Supervisors, etc. as well as the lack of opportunity for the vast majority of people growing up on communities, is the veritable "root of all evil".

Let me make a bold statement, 90% of all jobs, housing, preferential treatment, go to 10% of the inhabitants of most Aboriginal Communities. It is also astounding that, despite the high incidence of fraud, misappropriation and nepotism within this privileged 10%, they maintain their positions at the expense and to the detriment, of the remainder of the community. Why? Because these people are educated, literate, and willing to deal with both State & Federal Government Agencies.

So the average person growing up on these communities, sees that, coming as they do from one of the non-privileged families, there is little to no possibility of their receiving advancement regardless of what they do, or what grades they receive. Is there any wonder that there is a sense of hopelessness, apathy and abuse of drugs and alcohol? The lack of respect for the State is the cause, not the outcome of our approach to Aboriginal Communities. Unless we give the majority of inhabitants thereof some reason to respect and/or trust the State, we cannot expect anything to change.

Let me state too that my views on this state of affairs, come from many years of living in, around, or in the vicinity of Aboriginal Communities. I have witnessed this firsthand and feel horrified at the absolute lack of progress in the last two decades (since I became aware of the problem). Saying "sorry" without some realistic action on the ground, is about as useful as the proverbial "tits on a bull."

I agree with most of what you say Custard, as I too have worked in many town and country Aboriginal communities.
We know that the Aboriginal people who have had some formal education or have parents/carers who were formally educated, especially those from the 'stolen generation', are able to work the system to their advantage.

This leaves all those who were not well educated or who have uneducated parents/carers, with little hope of joining their educated counterparts in getting what they can from life.

What do you think can be done to change this now though Custard?

I believe that if we start ensuring Aboriginal kids of today are sent to boarding schools away from their communities during school terms, then maybe the next generation may have a chance of doing something productive with their lives.
This current generation is lost, I fear.

I honestly believe that a real thorough cleanout, like the "Wood Royal Commission" gave to the NSW Police Service, would allow the young aboriginal people to see that these people aren't untouchable for starters. I'd also like to see a complete cleanout of the shonky contractors, I've seen way too many $1M tin sheds, with no windows and decking for floorboards (it ain't the community doing the rorting there).

After that? How about ensuring that the schools in these areas are equipped as well as their non-community counterparts?

Maybe look at introducing a year of national service - that would fit well with our overseas troop commitments, but with the option of choosing to get involved with building projects (as part of the army) on Aboriginal Communities instead. I honestly don't believe, based upon my own experience, that anything can change while private enterprise is involved.

That would allow the nations assets to be used to airlift/freight the necessary building materials to where they are needed. It gives those on the communities the interaction with white people other than police/lawyers/judges... It would also allow for ongoing work, which would allow local apprentices to get qualified.

It would also allow a LOT of the pampered schoolkids from our cities, to actually experience the 3rd World conditions in their own Country. I'm not sure, but that itself may make some difference in their thinking... It would certainly curb the worst excesses of the system, nothing like being subject to scrutiny.

But I see no hope of long term change unless the younger generation can be shown that EVERYBODY IS EQUAL BEFORE THE LAW. How the gap is filled in the interim, could probably be taken up with the voluntary service personnel. Those trained in Management could mentor people, while those with other specialties could mentor others.

CUSTARD...

Following a modified Anne Coulter line.

"Invade their hearts, Kill the 'old' man in their leaders.. and convert them to Christianity"

Putting this more Biblically :) "Send indigenous missionaries from other formerly near extinct races/Tribes to them.Present the truth of the Christian Gospel, then teach them what it means to be disciples of Christ.

You might become a bit hysterical at that..but wait..there's more.

Just this week, a gentleman from just such a tribe in another country was here, meeting with me. He came for the following reasons.

a) To express his and his peoples undying gratitude to the missionaries who brought the Gospel to them in 1928
b) To take the knowledge/story of those misho's back to the young people of his tribe and pass it on to them.

He requested the opportunity to share his peoples story with some Aboriginals in Melbourne.. we are working on that.

He expressed to me in the most somber and heartfelt tones.. how his people and their cousins (similar language group) have been sooooo blessed as a result of coming to Christ.

That...is the answer..'what do do' with them.

But of course.."I" have a vested interest in promoting this.. as I'm one of those 'missionaries'..so take what "I" say with as much credibility as you would the climate change scammers..

Better to see what they say themselves :)

http://www.lifespring-buedulun.net/view/?pageID=369123

http://www.lifespring-buedulun.net/view/?pageID=237582

Question:
What to do with Aboriginal Communities?
Answer;
Keep Academics & leftist bureaucrats out of the communities.
Until this or a similar policy is implemented the communities will NEVER forge ahead.

I didn't see either when I was in the central desert region, or NW Qld mate. I saw a lot of corrupt building contractors milking the hell out of things, I saw a lot of yeller-fellers from outside robbing the place blind, but I saw no socialists or what have you... Too far from the Chardy for them.

Dear Custard,

A clarification:

Chardy drinkers are usually ultra-conservatives,
of the extreme right. They can afford it!

What to do with Aboriginal Communities?

The following website may help answer that question:

http://www.antar.org.au/abetterway

A brief summary:

1) Aboriginal solutions to Aoboriginal problems
yields the best results.
2) Support them rather than patronise them.
3) Need to listen and support local institutions
and solutions rather than impose solutions across
the board.
4) Need to work in real partnership with the
Aboriginal Communities.

Too far from the Chardy for them,
Yep, Custard,
No nice new houses for family & friends to have a free holiday. No fishing to exploit etc. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
I wonder if those corrupt leaders & CEO's in the communities will have to pay Super tax for mining green Gold ($).

Perhaps, Custard we do have the wrong approach.Instead of destroying the Aboriginal culture with the bribery and corruption of handouts and nepotism,we could take the Israeli angle of active genocide instead of passive genocide.It is far cheaper and quicker than stealing a person's purpose in life.Perhaps more humane,don't you think?

Custard: << The lack of respect for the State is the cause, not the outcome of our approach to Aboriginal Communities. Unless we give the majority of inhabitants thereof some reason to respect and/or trust the State, we cannot expect anything to change. >>

While I disagree vehemently with Custard on other issues, I think that this is a very perspicacious comment.

Given the experience that most Indigenous people have with the State via its various agencies, why on earth would they want to identify with it?

[Weird - I just inadvertently posted the above comment on the wrong thread, but the OLO software has been preventing me from correcting the error... if this works, I'll have a fair idea why]

OK, how many of the people commenting here, I include you CJ (I saw your post on the other topic) have ACTUAL experience living, working or dealing with Aboriginal People in isolated communities?

I'll tell you right now, supposed "Aboriginal Solutions" don't work, one mob gets the money, the rest get the sh*&ts...

The only Government Agency I have EVER seen work well with Aboriginal Communities, and which is generally trusted, is the Army/Defense Force.

As CJ Morgan stated (mistakenly) elsewhere, the interaction between Aboriginal People and the State is generally universally bad, so why would they want to identify with it... Good call, but how to get past that? Maybe we could use the Army Reserve, maybe various units that are on rotation, I don't know. But it has to change.

We have to move past the corruption, nepotism and favoritism that pervades all aspects of the reality of living in/on/or near Aboriginal Communities.

We have to find a single government agency that is trusted and can teach real skills. Unfortunately (because I am apparently a military nutter) I have to say the Army is it. They are the only ones I have ever seen get treated as 'normal' people.

If anyone else has suggestions, throw them out... Personal Jibes, keep to yourself, I don't need it

PS how in phucks (cool, gets past the censor) name is Israel in here? AIPD I swear to god! WTF?

Hi Custard - I have personal firsthand experience in interacting with Aboriginal communities, and also as a consultant to the ADF.

Military intervention is not the answer, because the problems are far deeper than the military is equipped to deal with.

Indeed, anybody who's studied the history of race relations in Australia would probably tell you that current problems began with Indigenous people being treated as the enemy by armed representatives of the State.

Things have improved a bit since then, but we still have a long way to go.

I'm not talking, necessarily about military intervention, in the accepted sense. I'm saying that the military trade instructors have had the best acceptance in some very remote spots and really do a better job. I'm talking places like Hopevale, Napranum, Kowanyama, Doomadgee, right through North Queensland. Places like Mutitjulu, Armata, etc. in the Territory as well.

I have put a LOT of thought into this, the only real answer I can see is via the implementation of Federal Authority. The cleaning up of the disgraceful state of affairs involving communities and private contractors and the weeding out of the corrupt from the Councils.

A full-blown new broom approach, getting rid of the problems that have been there since day 1. Quite frankly, there is not an ounce of trust for the organs of the State/Territory Governments (I don't have any anymore either), so the Commonwealth is required.

The only way the Commonwealth can do so, is via the army and Federal Police. The army is there to deliver the work and training, the AFP is there to enforce the rule of law.

Provide the services that are needed, get rid of the people who aren't, work out what is needed and then deal with it. Quite simply, I don't see how anyone but the army could do it. The living is too rough for the average public servant, actually MOST public servants, the fact that the army is training to rebuild a Country might actually assist them in the process of fixing ours.

<< The only way the Commonwealth can do so, is via the army and Federal Police. The army is there to deliver the work and training, the AFP is there to enforce the rule of law. >>

Yeah, but there's the rub. While the army is respected in some places, in others soldiers have been less than virtuous - for generations. And police are police, Federal or otherwise.

Your intentions are obviously good, but I think your suggestions have about as much chance of success as the last/current "intervention".

On the other hand, I think that this is a perspicacious observation:

<< Unless we give the majority of inhabitants thereof some reason to respect and/or trust the State, we cannot expect anything to change. >>

From what I've observed, when the State does something tangible that directly benefits Indigenous people, the recipients are generally grateful and amenable. Sure, there are plenty who apparently abuse State largesse, but there are more every year who avail themselves of educational, training and employment opportunities.

I disagree with you that educational opportunities are confined to the more influential families in communities. From what I know from personal experience, more and more young Indigenous people from wider networks are availing themselves of opportunities as they are presented.

Until very recently, Indigenous people have had little incentive to identify with the Australian State that has always marginalised and inferiorised them. I think that education, and indeed health, are the domains through which Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people will ultimately achieve equal status in mainstream Australian society.

With the greatest respect for your good intentions, Custard, I think that neither the Army nor the Federal Police will have much of a role in any effective redisposition of Indigenous people in Australian society.

Since 1788 we've sought ways to solve the aboriginal "problem". Until we realise that "WE" are the problem, the aboriginal communities will continue to suffer third world deprivation and continued cultural annihilation.

It's not the aboriginal people who must change - - - WE are the ones who must change! Anything less is a grossly paternalistic disrespect towards an entire culture.

We've attempted to culturally decimate an entire race of people, and for the most part we've succeeded quite well. We reward aboriginal people who are as much like us as possible, and the less they are like us the more they are punished.

I invite anyone to take a seat any night outside the Woolworths supermarket checkouts, in the Yeperenye shopping centre in Alice Springs. There you'll see before your eyes the results of our cultural intrusion and decimation of aboriginal culture. Virtually every night up till 10 o'clock closing you'll witness the following from a dispossessed people - - - - - assaults, extremely loud and aggressive abuse, constant screaming and yelling, extreme drunkenness , intimidation, theft (usually grog from the Woollies grog shop). Generally aboriginal upon aboriginal; very, very rarely aboriginal upon non aboriginal. They are drugged, drunk and dazed and violent. English is a second and sometimes third language. These people are "community" people. Their lives are TOTALLY dysfunctional. Many of them can barely stand upright, they carry physical injuries. They can barely walk from point A to point B without yelling and screaming at someone. Matters are made worse by the ever present security guards who physically intimidate them and sometimes assault them in efforts to move them on and away from nice shoppers like "US".

And guess what?

They are NOT to blame.

**WE** are to blame.

We have destroyed these people. We see the solution as them becomming more like us. Our values, our God, our ways of life, our culture. It's all about **OUR** domination of them.

It doesn't work.

It never has worked.

Until **WE** change towards them, their dispossession will continue.

They are NOT the problem, WE are!!

continued.......

.......... The same old paternalism continues, we consider that they are incapable of helping themselves and must receive **OUR** culture and **OUR** solutions. It always fails, and always will.

Within 200 years I predict the aboriginal people will have achieved their own nationhood. They will have their own autonomous, independent nation within the current borders of Australia; probably somewhere in the northern regions.

We stole their land from them. We hunted and murdered them. We decimated their cultures. They deserve that land back.

But not "given" back; they will **TAKE** it back (hopefully through legal process), and good on 'em! Currently they can't do that, it's impossible. In the future at some stage they WILL do it; and for the first time since the invasion of their land they will not be under our thumbs. And rightly so!

Don't be so damn silly benq, well within 200 years the islamic council which will be ruling Oz with a rods of iron, will have long since stopped any special recognition of, or assistance to aboriginals.

They will of course have been assisted in the gaining of power by many of the aboriginal community. This support will have been gained using the politics of envy.

However, once power had been secured, any special privileges had been removed, & aboriginals were required to obey instructions, like the rest of the greater comunity.

Two can play this silly game of prediction mate, or three, if you include those damn silly academics who prattle on about global warming.

If we want to help aboriginal comunities what we should do is get out of them, & keep the aboriginal industry out. They should be given exactly the same assistance that any other comunitie gets, & nothing else.

They are still growing into modern life. They are about where our people were a couple of hundred years ago, & need time to catch up. Considering where they have come from, they aren't doing too badly really. They will do this much more easily if left to do it in private, rather than in the media.

Hasbeen & benq,
I think even CJ Morgan would have to agree that we can't turn back the clock. What can be done however, is to acknolwledge that the past & present approach by either side is a monumental disaster. The blame game & guilt industry have served quite a few people on both sides very well indeed, but we have now reached a stage where people on both sides realise it is getting us nowhere fast.
I suggest a large piece of good land be set aside purely for those indigenous who believe their ancient ways served them better. They can live there totally independent. Those outsiders who alway state that we have taken away the indigenous' culture should support this. Those who do not wish to return to stone age can make a living like every other green, blue, white, black or whatever Australian resident.
Perhaps someone has a better idea, let's hear it, we need a solution.

Indiv, they will not be "totally independent". That will only occur when they have their own nation. That's the only "real" solution, and that simply can't and wont happen for several hundred more years yet. They'll then set their own rules in their own nation - - - just like we set our own rules regarding "our" nation. The aboriginal people deserve no less.

"Imposing" manufactured solutions on them has never worked and will never work.

We stole and pillaged their land so that "we" could prosper. We can't forever stop their nationhood. It's "WE"" who must change. It will still take several hundred more years for us to fully realise and understand that we invaded and took their land. With the passing of time the old hurts will die away and all will be able to move on without the current "us versus them" mentality. The aboriginal people will eventually take back what is their land. And guess what? Australians won't be offended by that notion, as they are now. We would have evolved by then, and we won't begrudge the aboriginal people owning and governing what was theirs' in the first place. They deserve no less.

Snore, having actually been to a protest by Aboriginal people, and read the banners and listened to the speech-writers, it is quite obvious that "What to do" is what they WANT us to do and give more sovereignty and independence on native title land. Oh, and some kind of security measure to NOT send in soldiers when a sexual harassment case comes up would be a thoughtful proposition too.

Nothing else for me to say- these threads turn into idiotic cesspits of people who will only believe what they want instead of ask someone who knows.

CUSTARD...

goto Doomadgee mission.

"the absolute disbelief in the Rule of Law"

Calling that a problem (or the symptom of a problem)? Good on them - it's one healthy virtue that aborinigals managed to preserve. Why should anyone, of any colour, believe that others have a right to rule and impose their laws upon us?

"feel horrified at the absolute lack of progress"

I understand that it bothers you, Custard, but why should it bother them? is it because they were infected by that progress-virus from the white-man? why should offering them progress be treated differently than offering them alcohol?

Suzeonline suggested: "if we start ensuring Aboriginal kids of today are sent to boarding schools away from their communities during school terms, then maybe the next generation may have a chance of doing something productive with their lives"

- so that's the bottom line: these machines must be working for us, their feelings don't matter and if they fail to be productive, we ought to fix them. "This current generation is lost, I fear" - thank you for your honesty.

Individual's idea is quite-good, yet one-sided:

"I suggest a large piece of good land be set aside purely for those indigenous who believe their ancient ways served them better. They can live there totally independent... Those who do not wish to return to stone age can make a living like every other..."

If some indigenous people prefer to take up the modern/western life-style and to be assisted in that pursuit, then why not the other way round? non-indigenous people who wish to return to the stone age should also be able to live in that land and enjoy freedom from the "rule of law".

HAZZA... there is a dimension to the land rights issue which I'd be interested in your view on....

-'incitement/agitation' from communists.

Do you feel it's possible that such groups are seeking to exploit and amplify those feelings?

This is from the Socialist Alternative web site..

//Only a revolution by the mass of workers which mobilises their collective power can sweep aside the machinery of capitalism, and only the process of revolution has the potential to equip workers – by providing them with the experience, lessons and unity – to build socialism, a society for the liberation of all.//

From the bigger context of the article.. they are not talking about 'ideological' revolution but real. (mass takeover)
http://www.sa.org.au/abc-of-socialism/2747-why-we-need-a-revolution-to-get-socialism

They would use any means at their disposal.

SOLUTIONS... most of you thus far are looking at a spiritual problem in materialistic ways. I say 'spiritual' because if you dig deep enough, you will find it's not about 'land/welfare/benefits/sovereignty'. They know as well as we do it isn't going to happen other than the political face saving and buying off of leaders.

Unfortunately, any suggestion made which deviates from the status quo will be dismissed as racism.
My opinion, is that education is the answer. Unfortunately, "education" can mean pretty well anything as can "capacity building". Teaching people to weave grass mats or to speak a language that only a handful of others speak, are simply feelgood exercises.
There is apparently a housing shortage in aboriginal communities, wouldnt that be a great opportunity to send a qualified builder and a swag of building materials... and actually teach them to build houses.
I think if the folks built a house they would have more pride in it than just being given it.
Historically, policy was to plonk these folks out in the boonies. Currently, any policy of plonking anybody (aboriginal) anywhere wont get much traction.
Unfortunately, there is no future at any of the communities and no genuine opportunities to progress. All the communities should have been shut down in the early eighties, as the bleeding heart brigade will keep them in squalid poverty through their well-meaning and misguided actions.
Education and SOME of Noel Pearsons' ideas are the go.

I won't repeat many of the sound comments by Custard, Suze and others.

Just to add, if those representing Aboriginal communities to State and Federal Governments are considered an elite or priveleged 10% why not introduce a voting system within those communities to elect representatives. A mini-Council election if you like.

Trust issues are always difficult to resolve - so put the power back into the hands of the members.

The essential problem in all Australian communities is the absolute disbelief in the rule of law which asserts that a majority of the parliament can remove all women members and prohibit all Australian women the vote. The rule of customary law has been replaced by the rule of patriarchal law. Nobody takes patriarchal law seriously anymore so the solution is the revival of customary law with governance conducted by agreement between women's and men's legislatures, courts and corporate committees. benq is spot on that 'we' is the problem.

It's true that "we" are the problem, not the aboriginal people. But whistler, I can't see how your post relates to the subject matter. Maybe you could elaborate in order to clarify what you mean.

Whistler, I cannot see how your post adds anything either... If you'd care to elaborate, that'd be grand.

CJ, yeah, I know that the proposed solution is unlikely to happen, that really doesn't change the fact that it would answer most of the problems on the ground.

Apart from the States Agencies, the only "white fellas" ever seen on most communities are, on the whole, the extortionate contractors, who contribute nothing to the community unless at an exorbitant price, and who live in fenced in compounds to protect them from the mob.

The State/Territory Police, they are universally distrusted and hated, with for the most part good reason. Yes, there are some good cops, but there are plenty of bad ones too, the bad ones undo every bit of good the others achieve.

As for the Army, it is actually practicing how to rebuild shattered, non-functioning communities and gain the trust of the inhabitants thereof. From what I've seen of their efforts on a 'few' communities in the past, they are respected (a whole lot better than one might expect based upon the interaction of our indigenous minority and the inhabitants of Robbertson & Lavarack Barracks).

What is the problem with them training on Aboriginal Communities? The same issues they are going to face in Afghanistan are there too, the remoteness, the isolation, the need to win the trust of the community and the need to not only rebuild it, but teach people how to run it themselves.

But I do admit, it is unlikely to happen... Too many vested interests, too many toes to be stepped on, so into the too hard basket. Shame, because it, of all the ideas actually could work.

Al, believe it or not, I have actually lived in and around Doomadgee (Doom City) for quite some time. I have seen people try to implement programs and then seen them sacked by the council, because as part of implementing the programs they asked too many questions about the gaping hole (some $500K from memory) in the Council coffers.

I've been there when the police evacuated the "white fellas", and chose to stay (I trusted the locals more than I'll ever again trust Qld Police), when a malnourished child was bought to the hospital too late and it died, and of course the Dr was blamed.

I've seen the drug & grog runners, an Oz = $500 (some ten years ago) & a bottle of scotch $100-200 (especially during the wet). It is not really all that different in the Territory or the other missions in NQ. Mutitjulu & the Pitjanjarra Lands stand out - I've seen 3 generations of a single family walking down the road sniffing milk tins and watched petrol being sold for anything up to $50/L.

I'm not approaching this from the point of view of an innocent mate. Like I said, I can claim Aboriginality, but have yet to do so anywhere outside a Qld/NT watchhouse (the last place it'll do ya any good). My suggestions come from a fertile, somewhat overactive mind, discussions with others and a real desire to see REAL change. I admit here and now, alcohol has to be allowed, midstrength and the sale monitored.

That will stop the grog runners simply by reducing their profits (petrol prices are prohibitive then). It will also mean that people who have, due to enforced abstinence, zero tolerance to alcohol aren't suddenly drinking a carton and going berko.

What to do with the sniffers, that is an altogether harder question. The only thing that would entice them away from that utopia is grog and lots of it. Otherwise the Pitjanjarra Lands will be a ghostland by the end of this decade.

What to do with Aboriginal Communities?
I suppose expecting them to work for a living is racist?

"I suppose expecting them to work for a living is racist?"

Actually, authority's common expectation is rather more specific than just "to work for a living", it is "to work for the money that the white-man prints".

Probably not racist, assuming they expect the same from everyone else, but patronizing and evil just the same.

It is none of anyone else's business whether another chooses to live or to die. For someone who grew up free, it is probably more dignified to starve than to slave for the white-man's tokens.

AlGore- to answer your question, no and no from me.
I don't believe any socialists groups will get much out of sovereign Aboriginal land to turn them to their agenda, but to be honest even if they did I wouldn't really feel bothered by it.

Simply put I feel they DO deserve this right on land granted native title as long as on a case-by-case basis (as the circumstances of the areas are different) the rights of any not among the title holders are secured appropriately (that is, if it were granted in a city district, there would be much less concession to sovereignty than a whole town predominantly populated by the title holders.

benq and Custard, in the first paragraph of this thread the assertion was posed that "the primary problem (not a symptom) on the majority of Aboriginal Communities, is the absolute disbelief in the 'Rule of Law'". I was merely pointing out that "the absolute disbelief in the 'Rule of Law'" is also the primary problem on all other Australian communities.

The rule of law in Australia issues from a Constitution which by original intent provides for men's legislatures only, a men's jurisdiction at law only, administered in men's corporate committees only, all to which women attend under male supervision. No further proof of this assertion is required than the realisation that a majority of the federal parliament can rescind the law granting women franchise in 1902 with the effect of removing all women members and prohibiting all Australian women a vote. The same cannot be said of men. Australia's Constitution in its current form is the product of patriarchy. It is a blatantly sexist implement of governance and therefore so is Australia's rule of law.

1/2

To Australia's first peoples with a universal tradition of law passed down through millennia of equal rights between women and men Australia's rule of law is a nonsense, thus the social problems this thread is attempting to resolve. There is no pride, joy or dignity living under a rule of law which is a nonsense. To the communities which comprise the rest of Australia in which women have become the equals of men over the past half century or so Australia's rule of law is also a nonsense, thus their impotence in resolving the social problems of the first peoples. There is no pride, joy or dignity living with first peoples disadvantage. Neither of these attitudes are particularly overt. First peoples don't generally go around saying the rule of law is a nonsense because of its inconsistency with tradition but some do, cursing authorities for their intervention. Most other Australians don't go around saying the rule of law is a nonsense with regard to the inequality of women but some do, cursing men for their paternalistic attitudes. But these attitudes remain at essence of all that Australians do. There is nothing more profound than relations between women and men.

The solution is to establish a rule of law which both first peoples and all other Australians will uphold with pride, joy and dignity, to reconcile the rule of law. The way to do this is with a Constitution which achieves equal rights between women and men through governance conducted by agreement between women's and men's legislatures, courts and corporate committees. Cure the disease and the wounds will heal themselves. OK, so I didn't get past the first paragraph of the thread before I was moved to speak, but is was a spot on paragraph which cut straight to the point.

2/2

Yuyutsu

Presumably taking money for nothing is also beneath your dignity.

Whistler,
How does one respect a law that doesn't respect it's own ? I favour the indigenous law any day to the academic connivance gobbledeegook.
As I stated before; Keep academia away from indigenous communities & you'll instantly see a rebuilding of those communities.

Whistler, I recognise that, I mean the Suffragettes only got the franchise early last Century. However, I suggest a separate thread might be appropriate?

Proxy,

Asking them to work for a living - if you are basing it upon the negative stereotype, largely based on the "visible drunks" in major centers (whom are no longer welcome in their home communities), then yes, it is racist.

If you are suggesting that asking them to work within the bounds of the Aboriginal Communities themselves, it may suprise you to learn that that is where work for the dole comes from and where it is pretty much mandatory. Trouble is, apart from that work, there is pretty much nothing else available - so it is the dole or nothing for the majority.

I am serious, I just saw the spokesman for the Armed Forces Association on TV, in response to our two casualties yesterday, saying that the problem in Afghanistan is more difficult than most here understand.

Sure it is, they have to win the hearts & minds of the local people, away from the privileged few within the communities (who have vested interests), despite the language & cultural divide. Then they must not only rebuild the shattered communities and local economies, but do so in partnership with those who live there so that the communities become and can remain economically & socially viable.

Well guess what? That is PRECISELY the range of problems that have to be dealt with IN OUR OWN COUNTRIES ISOLATED ABORIGINAL COMMUNITIES. If the Army cannot deal with them here, why on earth would they be capable of doing so there?

That is one reason why I suggested that the Army might benefit from the proposed solution. It is a "dry run" if you will, letting them sort out the teething problems involved in fundamentally altering the destiny of an entire community, while not getting shot at and bombed.

The other question is, why are we providing this service to Afghanistan when we aren't doing it at home?

"Presumably taking money for nothing is also beneath your dignity."

I am already tainted, but for someone who grew up free, touching that stuff is indeed below their dignity (unless they use it to light a fire).

Unfortunately, so many of us, myself included, take money for nothing: not necessarily from the public purse, but while performing jobs of no real benefit in the service of their employer's ego.

QUIZZ.... no prize but still worthwhile.

Could a few of you (specially those who regard themselves as liberal/progressive) have a shot at this ?

IF... a white man calls a black woman

‘you black piece of s’, ‘you f--g piece of black sh'
and
‘f--k you blacks you're all f*--g shi&’.

Is he committing a 'hate crime' or..infringing the racial discrimination act ?

Let's reverse this.

Black woman says the same ...but replacing the word 'black' with 'white'....

Is that a hate crime and an infringement of the Racial Discrimination act ?

I would love to have your opinions on this.

Of course.. Pauline Hanson would have firm views :) do you?

This, by the way.. relates directly to the topic..as it is a case study in 'white/black' relations.

Which I will *reveal* next. (after some answers)

Important..is "Law"... equally applicable to all ? or..should it discriminate on the basis of race?

Please, I am trying to discuss a serious suggestion, how is a discussion about whether one form of racial vilification or another is worse going to help? Yes, only one would be likely to be prosecuted, so what? I've yet to see anyone prosecuted for either.

Custard, the rule of law in Australia was laid down with the nation's Constitution BEFORE women got the vote, two years before to be precise, which is exactly why virtually all Australians to a woman and man treat the rule of law with exactly the same contempt as the first peoples, albeit from a different approach. The subject of this thread in relation to Australia's first peoples, as you stated in the first paragraph, is the perceived "absolute disbelief in the 'Rule of Law'".

Who in Australia doesn't hold the rule of law in contempt? Huge proportions of the population text and talk on mobiles while driving, drive a couple of kilometres over the limit, run an orange light when they could have stopped safely, use a vehicle horn inappropriately, litter, jaywalk, slander or defame others, commit minor assaults, become drunk and disorderly or smoke cannabis. Grab a copy of minor offences under the civil and criminal codes and you'll find a directory of what most Australians do every day. Virtually the entire nation holds its rule of law in utter contempt. While the law is not discriminatory it is discriminatory to hold one segment of the nation as having absolute disbelief in the rule of law, particularly when the overwhelming majority of the offences committed are as trivial as the offences everyone else commits. The distinction is that one section's contempt for the rule of law comes from a tradition of equality between women and men while the other, vastly larger section comes from a tradition of inequality between women and men, patriarchy. First peoples are more brazen with their contempt with reference to equality while all other Australians are more conservative with their contempt in the novelty of equality.

Fix the rule of law with a Constitution providing governance which achieves equality and the problem is fixed. All citizens will respect the rule of law in their daily lives and take advantage of the benefits in health, education, employment and opportunity the rule of law provides, not just the reserved.

Whistler, I stated above that I am aware of the issue and back you on it. I suggested it was worthy of it's own thread, because I cannot for the life of me see how it is relevant to this one, the absence of respect for police & the rule of law in Aboriginal Communities comes from years of abuse by "protectors" and police, not the absence of a Constitutionally enshrined right for Women to vote. Until the referendum, Aborigines didn't have the right to vote and, it could be argued, given that the referendum only REMOVED the specific words, but did not add a positive right, are in the same position as Female Voters.

I don't want to antagonise you on this issue, but this is not the thread for it. If you start a thread I'm happy to add what I know about the Suffragette movement and it's Australian Sisters. I'd also be interested to know why the question needs Constitutional Amendment, as the wording from memory is silent thereon. The whole thing rested upon a presumption, that later became an invalid presumption (unlike the specific proscription upon Aboriginal Voters - the words are still there in most printed versions of the Constitution if you'd care to look, they are just struck out). \

At the present time I am struggling to think of anything 'specific' within the Constitution which would have the effect you argue, there is neither a positive statement or a proscription regarding female voters, the whole rests upon an "assumption", which during the 1890's was that women didn't vote (but which didn't need to be said), whereas now the presumption is that they do (which equally goes without saying).

I am sure you could try and gather enough support to push for a referendum to enshrine the right, but as it is assumed now, I don't like your chances (Referenda aren't free & rarely succeed).

Somewhere in the Australian constitution, there is a provision for making different laws for different races. Of course, back in 1901 things were quite different and this provision was added to try and address unscrupulous operators from viewing aborigines as slaves for their chosen enterprise. I feel this is how you can have streets in Cooktown where one side can purchase and drink alcohol, but the aboriginal people across the road cannot legally do the same thing.

Historically, settlers would feed and clothe a group of aborigines in return for work. Once the laws were changed to make them pay the same wages regardless of race, it was no longer viable to support the whole group as well, and welfare came about around the same time. This is obviously a very paternal approach, but the fact remains that the stockmen and cattlemen of that era are quite a different breed to those we see on telly carrying on about this and that.

I'm tending to think the abundance of threads related to aborigines might be more a fishing trip than genuine discussion, as half the posts will be either "for or against" aboriginal people, and the other half deeply suspicious of the first half. Whatever you try to do will fail and be "racist", but its getting to a point where that accusation is becoming very diluted.

ALGOREisRICH,
Your last post reflects reality but that's not acceptable. On the other hand the unacceptable is accepted as the norm. So, there you go !

Has anybody worked out what Whistler is trying to say?
If so, is it possible to translate it into a couple of sentences?
Does she mean that if we follow her principles,
Australia will become an egalitarian utopia
where nobody talks on their mobile while driving?
Please help me to understand.
I want to live in Utopia too.

Custard, if You can understand what I'm talking about a referendum on an equal rights republic is a shoo-in in this weekend, thank you. PatTheBogan the law isn't Racist unless its only applied to a specific race. Proxy, people won't be talking so much in court if they stop talking on the mobile while driving, rule of law. Have you considered the rite of passage to a republic recently?

Aboriginals and a Bill of Rights?

Whistler and Custard and Individual.. the reason I mentioned that situation of racial vilification is because it relates directly to how to 'treat' other communities.

So... to answer 'what to do'...etc as per the topic.. one might venture to suggest "with equality before the law" might be a good start.

Here is the case study I gleaned that stuff from.. but *warning*.. colorful language quoted.

http://www.acrawsa.org.au/ejournalFiles/Volume%204,%20Number%202,%202008/O%27Connell%20Pinned%20Like%20a%20Butterfly%20FINAL.pdf

I draw your attention particularly to the line of argument used by the Magistrate (was it CJ Morgan with a wig ?) see page 6.. it will 'open thine eyes'

Page 7
Brown FM decided that Ms
Power’s insults were not racial vilification
because they were made not because
of Mr McLeod’s race, but to express
frustration at the power differential
between them;

For their social dominance, ill-defined
boundaries and internal diversity as a
group, Brown FM finds that whites should
not be able to invoke the racial hatred
provisions of the Racial Discrimination
Act.

Well well well... most illuminating.

So...should (in terms of the topic) White prison guards treat aboriginal people according to law.. or not? Should aboriginal women treat White males according to law?(RDA) ..or not?

Was Pauline Hanson right ? :) (Equality b4 the law)

Do the Racial Discrimination/Human rights laws actually CONTAIN inherrent discrimination against whites? YES! if the magistrate is to be believed.
I wonder how it would be if a well educated Chinese doctor called a white laborer "You white piece of"....would the magistrate say the same ? :) oh yes.. the opium wars..British Colonianism..yep...that's it!

Custard,
I draw your attention to this article in the Aus this morning.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/nothing-constructive-in-housing-disaster/story-e6frg6zo-1225877647700

I know that Adam Giles is a politician but, if it is only half true, to my mind, it is easily grounds for government dismissal in both the NT and Federally. Just how could any government allow this situation?

I recall those proporting to have the rights of aboriginals at heart, going on about the NT intervention and making a big deal out of 'sending in the troops' when all the army was doing was providing tents, etc. for the medical and police staff. How do you think your idea of using the army would be received by the aboriginal industry.

I rue the day this government took over to the detriment of the NT aboriginals. To my mind Mal Brough was a no frills bloke that would have achieved lots in regard to the safety and well being of the kids.

I don't want to become party political but can anyone show anything this present government has done successfully. This aboriginal housing scandal is just another in a long list of scandals.

Belly, even you must now be starting to question your beloved Labor party.

The sooner this mob is removed the better. If Labor wins the next election we could be well on the way of being like Zimbarbwe or some other broken down country.

Where are all the aboriginal activists now? They should be screaming blue murder about this. Seems their NT intervention objections were purely political and the kids still suffer.

If nothing else the aboriginal communities need Mal Brough as Minister.

BANJO...that sleeze and strife and corruption in the NT simply mirrors the left wing bottom feeding politics of the Obama/Gore/communist(in capitalist garb) scum in the USA.

But I'll guarantee the 183,000,000 is not 'missing'.. such a large amount would absolutely be tracable somehow.. withdrawals would have been made.. payments..invoices.. etc.. if its just 'missing' then a firing squad is needed and quick.

OH.. we could always check for sudden and unexpected 'increases' in the Labour party re-election war chest.. never know what you might find.

What's the big deal? Everyone on Earth except readers of The Australian apparently, and there's nothing new there, knows that no matter how many billions of dollars are thrown at the problem by governments of whatever persuasion, and this has been going on for at least four decades now, nothing will succeed without the cooperation of the locals, and that won't happen without a women's jurisdiction. So calm down folks, take a bex if you need one, while the rest of us get on with the job of establishing an equal rights republic governed by agreement between women's and men's legislatures, courts and corporate committees so a bunch of disparate stone-ages with a tradition commencing at the beginning of human time can be accommodated, oh, and so everybody else can be free from wretched paternalism also god's love 'em.

Custard started this thread with this statement:

<< ...the primary problem (not a symptom) on the majority of Aboriginal Communities, is the absolute disbelief in the "Rule of Law".

I will attempt to show that this disbelief, stemming as it does from years of abuse of the same by Police, Supervisors, etc. as well as the lack of opportunity for the vast majority of people growing up on communities, is the veritable "root of all evil". >>

Given the release yesterday of the CMC's damning report into the police investigation of the death while in custody of Mulrunji on Palm Island, it's quite clear that he's right.

http://www.cmc.qld.gov.au/data/portal/00000005/content/13053001276649217949.pdf

Why would any Aboriginal person on Palm Island have any faith or trust in the law or the police?