Dear Pericles,

Beautifully said!
Excellent advice.

However don't hold your breath that it
will be heeded.

Only one book is holy, only one religion
is "good," as only one needs to be chided,
over and over and over again ...

Double-standard rules apply here - ad nauseum!

Pericles, Foxy,

You are missing the point.

None of us believes the bible or koran is some sort of holy book dictated by the creator of the universe.

The question is this:

To what extent to BELIEVERS interpret these texts literally?

Whatever its faults, the Catholic Church famously is NOT literalist. Here is what Augustine had to say on the topic 1500 years ago.

It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, … about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters,…"

Of course this does not stop the Catholic Church having some pretty loony dogma. But they are not literalist.

However many protestant denominations are as evidenced by their objections to evolution.

My experience is that most Muslims do take the koran and ahadith literally as evidenced by THEIR objections to evolution and the stoning to death of "adulteresses".

How can it be otherwise if you believe that the koran is a faithful transcript of a message direct from God to Muhammad via the angel Gibril? Muslims do IN FACT believe that the koran replicates this message word for word, syllable for syllable, phoneme for phoneme. The written koran of today, when correctly enunciated, so Muslims REALLY believe, captures every meaning and every nuance of every meaning of that original message.

Don't take my word for this. ASK ANY PRACTISING MUSLIM.

It is you who are applying double standards by refusing to acknowledge that practising Muslims are as BLOODY MINDED about their religion as fundamentalist Christians like Boaz. Or for that matter like certain fundamentalist Jews.

How many people died as a result of the Rushdie affair again?

Foxy,
<<Double-standard rules apply here - ad nauseum!>>
Yes, and you are the one applying them.
Please show me where even one Christian suggests that Jesus' figurative speech about plucking out offending eyes should be taken literally and then proceeds to pluck out a transgressor's eyes.
For every one example you give me I will give you ten+ where Mohammed and the Koran's literal speech advocating death to the infidels is taken literally.

Proxyyyy.. ur giving me ideas there :) Plucking out transgressors eyes...hmmmm....

*looking at Pericles*.....

I just wish poor Pericles and dear foxy would actually do some theological training before making silly comments on things they obviously know very little about.

The Bible and Quran are TOTally different types of document.. separated by linguistic, cultural and historical issues and contexts and by 600 yrs.

If u blessed pair are going to pick on me.. try doing it on a point of weakness rather than strength.. otherwise you look like a pair guilded not so youthful people in that IronBark barbers shop with smug looks. (Cultural note for the foreigner Pericles.... see next link)

http://www.wallisandmatilda.com.au/man-from-ironbark.shtml Verse 3

/....TAGS PROXY :)

StevenLmeyer.. excellent points. But I sympathize with you :)
You are speaking logically, rationally and reasonably, -qualities which are totally lost on the 'bigot' whoever he or she or they might be *smile*

Steven..but even if they did 'ask a practicing muslim'.. when you suffer from the entrenched denial of Pericles and the well meaning but "I still see the good in people" Foxy.. I fear they would 'hear..but not perceive'.

Being Jewish you might 'get' this more than some (the link) :)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+135&version=NIV
verse 16 (last half) and 17 (first half)

I'm not sure you can have it both ways, Boaz and stevenlmeyer, however much you would like to.

>>None of us believes the bible or koran is some sort of holy book dictated by the creator of the universe. The question is this: To what extent to BELIEVERS interpret these texts literally?<<

More relevant to this thread would seem to be "to what extent do Christians insist that the Qur'an is taken literally by its believers".

We don't actually see any Muslims here making outlandish claims and muttering dark threats, I have noticed.

Only Christians.

I wonder why. Any thoughts?

>>The Bible and Quran are TOTally different types of document.. separated by linguistic, cultural and historical issues and contexts and by 600 yrs.<<

Actually, stevenlmeyer clearly disagrees. At least, from any practical point of view.

To him, they each have relevance to their "believers", as he calls them (I can't bring myself to type that in caps), and would appear to be some sort of behavioural guide.

Your approach though is quite similar. You carefully pick and choose the bits of your own style guide you insist that your lot follows, and then carefully pick and choose the bits of theirs that, you insist, the other lot follows.

A touch lopsided, is it not, when you get to make the rules, as well as being a competitor.

And then do the umpiring, just to be on the safe side.

>>If u blessed pair are going to pick on me.. try doing it on a point of weakness rather than strength.<<

Your weakness, Boaz (and I'm sure I'm not the first person to have pointed this out) is that you are culturally and attitudinally unable to listen.

Regrettably, you see this as a strength.

On which basis you are right, of course. We will forever be talking to your "strength".

Pericles asks why "We don't actually see any Muslims here making outlandish claims and muttering dark threats…"

How many Muslims do we have posting here?

How many non-Muslims posting here are Christians "making outlandish claims and muttering dark threats"? Very few.

Unlike you Pericles I have tried to find out what Mosque-attending Muslims believe. I've engaged with them here and in South Africa. I've enquired about their beliefs. I've spoken to Imams.

How many Muslims have I questioned over the past decades? I cannot give you a count but it is certainly well over a hundred. Probably over 200 though I cannot be certain.

I visit Islamic bookshops and ask what people are buying.

And of course since the advent of Internet I browse high traffic Muslim websites and read the comments of respected Muslim scholars such as al-Qaradawi.

You see, unlike you Pericles, I take the trouble to research BEFORE I pontificate. Unlike yours, the views I express here are researched.

As a result of my researches I can make the following statements with confidence.

--That the koran is an actual VERBATIM message from God is a core Muslim belief.

--Most Mosque-attending Muslims believe this to be literally true.

--Many of them believe the koran contains "scientific miracles" – facts which were unknown at the time but have now been revealed as true by science

--Most believe that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are true stories about Muhammad and his sayings.

Many of them are completely bloody minded when it comes to applying the koran and ahadith.

Oh, and if you want to see Muslims "making outlandish claims and muttering dark threats" may I suggest you browse the Muslim Village Forum website:

http://muslimvillage.com/forums/

Inter alia you will see Australian Muslims seeking to justify violence against cartoonists.

Your refusal to acknowledge that Muslims are as bloody-minded as fundamentalist Christians about their beliefs, the mental gymnastics you engage in to avoid seeing the reality of contemporary Islam, tells me nothing about Islam but rather a lot about Pericles.

How many people died in the Rushdie affair again?