No I am not anti woman, could not live without them.
But why is it bad manners for a man not to put the toilet seat down, but a woman need not put it up.
And standing mid lane in the super market is ok if its a group of women but rude if it is blokes?
Do we do any favors for women opening doors and stepping aside if they think it is their right and they do not need to be well mannered it return.
I am feeling the verbal bruising coming to me now but in reality, until life teaches them lessons some young ladys take mens manners so much for granted they demand right of way in cars when plainly they should give way.
Not all men have good manners not all females have bad, but why are different degrees of good manners expected?

Belly

Both sexes should place not only put the toilet seat down but the cover as well before flushing. For reasons of hygiene:

"To limit the scope of the aerosol effect, the simplest method is to close the lid on the toilet every time before flushing . This would also provide the peace of mind that while you are washing your hands for 30 seconds, microscopic, bacteria-laden water droplet will not be descending upon your person."

Excerpt from:

http://www.miracleseat.com/article_serendip.asp

End of argument.

Hi Belly. I've often commented on the apparent decline in civility in our society in recent times, and I think that manners are a symptom of it. However, I haven't really noticed that it's a gendered thing. Indeed, if anything, I probably encounter slightly more rude men in my daily life than women, but that may have something to do with lifestyle and work.

Why do you notice poor manners in women rather than men?

Ha Severin! We put the lid down in our house too, for the same reason. No arguments on that subject here either :)

Belly you will get no verbal bruising from me.

Manners are indeed on the decline but I don't think gender is an issue.

We can all think of examples when both genders may appear rude. Like when you are in a large group and the men all make sure that the boys have their beer but forget to ask the female guests if they would like a drink (even if it is non-alchoholic). Not all men do this, I only bring it up as an example of where there may be different standards in some situations.

Manners is also about graciousness and accepting the kind gesture of another whether it be opening a door or giving up a seat on a bus. I tend to give up my seat more than young males to older bus or train passengers (when I used to catch public transport).

I think we all notice the rudeness more in the opposite sex and may fall into the trap of "..oh typical male/female" rather than thinking "bloody rude twit". :D

Dear Belly,

So you see rude people? :-)

Seriously though, I don't think it's a gender
thing either. Good manners are based on
consideration for other people. However,
there are some cultural barriers that we may
need to take into account as well. What's
acceptable in one culture may be quite rude
in ours. And vice-versa.

However, there are many things that drive me nuts as well.
Rude cellphone talkers for example. I was in my
doctor's waiting room when this woman began
shouting into her cellphone, totally disregarding
everyone else in the waiting area. Then you have
telemarketing companies who hassle you. And of course
there's the old complaint of people who are rude
to others on the web. Who write things that they
wouldn't say in real life. Anonimity helps them in
this case. Whereas - they're probably weenies in real life.

Rudeness is a human condition and most of us will react
when the right buttons are pushed. You'll find terrible
behaviour from individuals on both sides, no matter
what the issue at times. The best thing I guess is to
take personal responsbility for one's own behaviour
and worry less about the behaviour of others. Although
that may be hard to do when you're being kept wide awake
during a working week by the thunka-thunka boom music
coming from your next door neighbour at 2am.

Oh Belly,

For the same reasons...

It's acceptable for a women to slap a man in the face if he says something she finds offensive and it is not acceptable for a man to do the same.

A man turning up to a friends place doesn't have to bring a little present.

Men can ignore each other's birthdays.

A bloke can mock his mates thinning hair and expanding gut, but women don't laugh at each others saddle bags, so it's best not to do the same to a woman.

Women can get a calculator out to work out the bill at a restaurant, but if a guy does it he's cheap/anal.

Some things just are. Different circumstances require different behaviour. Gender is just one determiner.

For example, on an internet forum, one is free to mock people mercilessly and pit one against the other, tell outrageous lies, create drama and entertainment. It's accepted that nobody takes any stake in what anonymous strangers post for their own amusement, so nobody is hurt.

Do this in a pub and eventually you'll get your head smashed in.

Do this at a dinner party with people you like and value (and who also appreciate when you're being sincere and when you are joking) and people will laugh and enjoy and join in the frivolity.

Anyway, I think on the whole, women have more social rules than men. There are more rules and they are more complicated. So on the whole I think women are way more polite and considerate of each other, and consequently of men.

But men think they are doing something extraordinary by holding a door open, when half the much more extraordinary stuff women will think to do for men goes unnoticed; It's not expected and sometimes not wanted or even quite annoying frankly.

'young ladys take mens manners so much for granted they demand right of way in cars when plainly they should give way.'

Haha Belly. That's just an evolutionary thing. A co-dependence.

If a woman decided she had right of way she was probably quite attractive. Years of being given right of way from men who allow her to walk buy them in order to enjoy the wonderful view.

Hot chicks walk around in a bubble of privilege. A million little interactions with men in thrall of them every day can do that to a person. Getting no speeding tickets, walking to the front of the line in clubs, being put on a pedestal every day so some man may peek up their skirt.

It all ends in tears when they get old though. Nothing can replace that lifetime of attention and preference that suddenly vanishes.

Then, of course, there are some sad men who whine on perpetually about women, regardless of the niceties of manners.

Its really quite simple Belly. In many marriages there are little
power games going on, between husbands and wives.

Many males eventually realise that if they give in, their
sex life might improve a bit. Its called pussypower.

So alot of married blokes simply land up doing what they are told.

'here are some sad men who whine on perpetually about women'

There are Gielgud, though I don't think you need talk only of yourself and antiseptic, no-matter how you miss him so.

Manners, manners, as a smart man once said, manners are for people with nothing better to do.

Irrelevant to the forum here, but then so are manners.

LOL (OLO) would be a much richer place but for the tedious niceties and faux concern for each others health and well being cluttering up discussions with such cringe worthy flanders-ness.

BTW: Severin ('end of argument'). Only an arrogant woman such as yourself would have such bad manners to end a discussion thus.

It would also be more hygienic not to kiss each other, and not to shake hands, though I'm sure you don't need to worry about either of these things. The obsession with germs along with the overuse of antibiotics are far more hazardous than the occasional upset stomach.

Yabby,

I'm sure you do what you're told Mr Richard Bucket! The Bermuda Triangle (Think of a well forested map of Tassie) is well documented trap for those who are beggers in the bedroom or oblivious to the carnal desires of their wives. Call her bluff is my advice. She'll be begging you to bend her over that toilet seat in no time! Or maybe the mail man. Any partnership based on power games is doomed to failure.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the back pain from bending over to lift the seat up and down, the thrills and spills from those with bad aim infecting the seat when it is left down, the late night drunken trips to the toilet that result in urinating on the lid someone has thoughtlessly left down. The health issues with putting the seat and lid on the toilet are as endless as the enduring chivalry of men who sacrifice so much to pander to womens irrational need for 'hi Gene' and 'neatness'.

I also think it's a measure of the lack of equality we have in our homes that there aren't any stand-up urinal troughs in most bathrooms. Maybe the designers of houses are coy 'stall men' like CJ.

I see no reason to engage any further in a thread that will only devolve into a gender war.

Both sexes are as capable of courtesy and crass behaviour as each other.

I referred to the toilet seat issue as it is apparently of great angst for some people - yet there is a simple, equitable and hygienic solution.

End of story.

If the rest of you wish to demean each other, be my guest. Will you achieve anything positive? Unlikely.

At least have fun while you're slagging each other.

Caio

CJ Morgan, "Ha Severin! We put the lid down in our house too, for the same reason. No arguments on that subject here either"

Goodness C J you are so supportive, even if it is a bit obvious at times.

So it could be assumed that you also sit to urinate for the same reason?

Does anyone else think it is funny that a thread about manners has degenerated into bad manners.

Typical of OLO culture...but it is a bit funny...

'yet there is a simple, equitable and hygienic solution.'

That being; leave the toilet seat how you would like to find it the next time you frequent the toilet.

But in your solution...

Simple: Well, only if you're the 'special' gender who must have everything your own way and arrogantly refuse to compromise. As in 'End of argument', or 'End of Story'.

equitable: No way! Equitable would mean equal effort in maintaining the needs of men and women.

hygienic: Well I've already torn apart that justification.

'Will you achieve anything positive? Unlikely.'

on OLO? LOL!

OLO, the home of achieving positive solutions to the great moral challenges of our time. Well, only if we'd play by Fractelle's rules. Oh, the missed opportunities! The humanity!

'At least have fun while you're slagging each other.'
Oh no worries there.

Don't knock it Cornflower, there, sooner or later, go you, {& I if we live long enough], so I'm told.

When working in the bush with my dad, then in his late 70s, or early 80s, he took a pee, behind a tree. He came back muttering about how nice it was to pee, standing up.

At my perplexed expression he explained. As he had aged, & the once powerful mussels had weakened, his once mighty stream had also weakened. It had become split into 2 miserable little trickels, one high, & one low.

This meant that if he dirrected the high one into the bowl, the lower one got his shoes. If the lower one was so aimed to make the bowl, the higher one got the back of the lifted seat.

He had been sitting for some time, to avoid displeasing mum.

I gather this is a common fact of aging.

No laughing please ladies.

Hasbeen

Too much information, but women would be scoffing not laughing now that Go Girl has been invented.

http://www.go-girl.com/

pelican was right, this is a funny thread.

Yeah but HasBeen that doesn't explain the reason for stall men like CJ. They reject the stand up communal trough for the privacy and hi Gene of the stall.

Maybe it's homophobia rather than shyness.

Well I've heard of 'too posh to push', but 'too posh to squat' takes the cake!

Not only funny, but FUDdy too it seems. I actually knew a cohort of women some time back who used to be proud of their ability to urinate standing up, usually after a few drinks.

Fortunately, they were well-mannered enough to only do so outdoors, since their aim was not as accurate as a man's, for fairly obvious reasons.

Howler - I only made my previous comment because you're starting to sound like a broken record, whining about women in every post you make, regardless of the topic. Is everything OK at home?

This discussion makes the intersexophobic assumption that there are only two genders.
It has been statistically and scientifically demonstrated that at least 10% of the population are sex and gender diverse and that there are consequently an indeterminate number of different genders.
In fact, new gender identities are being discovered daily.
This discussion is hateful, non-inclusive and bi-gendercentric.
Decent, compassionate people who wish to know more about intersexism should visit the web-site below:
http://www.sageaustralia.org/index.html
This is not a laughing matter.

Signed,
Dick Fanny,
Rainbow Gender Alliance

Ah CJ that kinda gear wont upset me like it does antispetic CJ. Domestic bliss in the Houellie house. Don't worry he'll be back before you know it. Hey maybe you can make some dog analogies about me to tide you over. I wont mind.

It does fascinate me this stall man phenomena. I always figured a guy like you, known for you Mr Darcy like action on OLO would be a trough man. So is it the hygiene? Because the trough would probably be more hygienic than the stalls. Or is it the size anxiety or some form of homophobia. I mean, you are normally quite keen to use size innuendo on OLO, so maybe that's it. But, also you are really quick to out all the homophobic posters. You've got me intrigued.

Anyway, I will listen out for the dulcet tones of Gielgud from the stall next time I'm in the toilets at the pub.

Proxy,

Are you brother of Foxy? Can you come round to my next party?

*I referred to the toilet seat issue as it is apparently of great angst for some people - yet there is a simple, equitable and hygienic solution.End of story.*

Actually not so Severin, for IMHO anyhow who argues about such
trivial issues like the toilet seat being up or down, would
be far too pedantic to live with. Its a non issue.

Glad to hear things are good at Chez Howler - but your gender war is getting a bit OTT of late, like trying to derail the thread put up by the poor Swedish woman whose daughter was murdered in Scotland. Are you trying to compensate for the absence of your hero?

BTW - what's with the stall and trough thing? When I'm at home I piss standing up and put the lid down afterwards for hygiene reasons (tank water, so when it's yellow we let it mellow...) and when I'm at the pub I piss in the trough like anybody else. Also, it's your hero who's obsessed by dogs, not me.

During one of her daily classes a teacher
trying to teach good manners, asked her
students the following question:

"Michael, if you were on a date, having dinner
with a nice young lady, how would you tell her
that you have to go to the bathroom?"

Michael said, "Just a minute, I have to go pee."

The teacher responded by saying, "That would be
rude and impolite."

"What about you Peter, how would you say it?"

Peter said, "I'm sorry, but I really have to go
to the bathroom. I'll be right back."

"That's much better," said the teacher.

"And you, little Johnny, how would you show us
your good manners?"

"I would say, 'Darling, may I please be excused for a
moment? I have to shake hands with a very dear friend
of mine, whom I hope you'll get introduced to right
after dinner."

The teacher fainted ...

What is it with men standing up and toileting in front of each other. That is just bad manners. ;)

What perplexes me is the social code of taking a dump in public toilets when someone is in the next cubicle. Totally does my head in. I work at a shopping centre doing long hours on occasion, so I have ZERO choice.

Why are we SOOOO self conscious, and why do I end up just laughing my face off over the whole experience, and is it rude to just ... well ... let it go...?

Here's my piece of wisdom. Use the disabled toilets for the exhaust pipe stuff. Total privacy.

Strewth toilet tales!

some people need to get a life!

Others need to lighten up.

Dear Examinator,

It's not easy to overcome a serious
internet addiction...(sigh)! :-)

Getting back to the topic...

When we were younger, I often used to go out drinking with my wife and her friends. Without fail, one of them would "forget" her money and keycard and it would just be assumed that her friends would shout her all night. I could never imagine men doing that for our mates.

When I was in uni, it was common knowledge that many female students were getting hold of their friend's assignments, editing them and handing them in. Most of the men that I knew wouldn't dream handing over all of our work to a friend.

It is nice that women are so caring, but it must be draining to have so much expected of them.

a good laugh half way through the week; thanks all of you and needed a good laugh this week! STG good on you I understand your viewpoint and sympathise but then you dont need anyone's sympathy as you say it all the way it is; so factual and reassuring!

St G after my early am late PM visit to Sydney yesterday I am happy if they are only dumping in the next cubical.
Men are just as bad said that, but still some little Princesses go a bit far.
Sydney cab driver yesterday, my offsider has Parkinson's, is well over 50, not walking well.
I grabbed a cab for 15 minute walk.
Way over, great Indian driver, cracked jokes laughed charged 8 bucks got a 2 buck tip and thanks mate.
Way back? 9 hours of public service talk,, warn out,, Aussie cab driver.
Bloody cab for 2 blocks he said!
Ace it up mate just drive a very cranky me said ,not wanting a blue in my work shirt.
As my old mate left the cab,5 bucks no [ I had ten bucks in my hand as I hailed him intending to give it to him as I got out] tip the idiot shouted abuse about not working in an iron lung at him.
You will not find a ruder bloke than him, just maybe lucky too we just wanted to start our long trip home more than make a scene.

Tips for cabbies, isn't that opposed by the union movement keen to ensure that workers are paid their due? For most, if you really want to give a tip, mention soap.

Sad to say but the only time I find a cabbie funny is when one is 'caged' by two council buses in a bus zone. Got to love poetic justice.

Who made this stupid rule anyway. If I have to lift the lid & seat, then they can damm well put it down.

I was out swimming in a creek long ago. when I needed to pee. One of the women said, "I bet you can't pee over that fence. It wasn't that high so I said, "I bet I could, but you can't" She took me on & did. When it was my turn I pointed Percy to the sky & she said, "uh ha!. No hands." So all I got was wet feet. She won.

You would have won if you just made yourself erect. That would've showed her.

CJ,

Poor swedish woman?

A: What kind of door to door salesman posts links on opinion sites. It's probably a scam to get donations.
B: The chance to rain on a parade of sympathetic love-in was irresistible
c: I was trying to get pynchme to bite as she ran away from an argument I was winning on another thread.
D: Trying generally to create more outrage as it's been pretty boring lately without anti.

'I piss in the trough like anybody else'
You sound like Malcolm Turnbull talking about his upbringing in a flat.

I cant believe Mr Darcy would ever be found at the pub. The theatre or a nice wine bar perhaps, but at the pub? You're as common as antiseptic! Being so concerned about toilet Hygiene I cant believe you'd ever frequent a pub toilet.

StG,

I believe there is etiquette among women never to even do No2 in the work toilet. Also I was on a 3 day trek and 2 of the girls said they just didn't do a No2 for the whole 3 days as there were no toilets. Weird. I didn't know how that could be possible.

I believe I've heard much more unsociable things going on in the stall next door.
Must be romantic with the smell of my poo in the air!

Goodonya! cornflower, good to know us unionists are said to think alike.
No have not got a clue what you are on about but I tip low paid workers every time.
having read others views it is true us blokes are the reason some women are rude we do get our urges mixed up some times.
But one princess in my life has it under control she is a ,well female dogs get called that.
it took years of being nasty and unlovable, she has it down to pat.
Guess some times I get close to that too we all do.
but the toilet seat stays up here.
And food lanes in my super market are not camping grounds while my trolley has wheels.

Belly,

Unions are opposed to tipping because it means that employers can get away with paying lesser wages on the expectation that workers will be able to cadge tips from customers for 'superior' service.

Rather than improve service, tipping leads to all sorts of scams, two examples of which could be: manipulating customers to pay tips; and employers taking part of tips for the 'right' of taking tips while in their employment.

Unions are about a fair days pay for a fair days work, nothing more and nothing less.

Belly - looks like you've got another "princess" in your life, old son ;)

Certainly a different subject here Belly, that has brought a smile to my face :)
As it happens, neither myself nor my husband change the toilet seat position after a pee! It is left as we used it...and we have never argued about that.

Closing the lid after using the toilet makes no difference to hygiene by the way. Any rogue bugs have already been flung into the surrounding air with each splash while in the act of using the toilet.

Houellebecq, " You would have won if you just made yourself erect. That would've showed her."
Correct me if I am wrong, but I was always told men can't actually pee while in the very 'excited' state?

Yes appears so C J Morgan.
On starting this thread, others too, I found it hard to give two descriptions.
Surely we all do?
After general discussion what?
I Picked satire,well it would happen cornflower trotted out and made it come true.
Sorry if I got it wrong you are a female are you not,can it be you are one of those wandering about the ALP conference floor with that tattoo of a woman with warfy like arms?
If so excuse me while I think for myself.
Union haters,and those like me who love them please consider.
Unions formed in the days workers had been near property of the boss, in England, some even got deported for starting a union.
Fights from brave men and women, women are to back bone of my movement, bought todays lifestyle to us all.
In my lifetime working hours had been 44 some had to work Saturday mornings.
As The light on the hill are no longer Kerosene, as kids no longer go to school hungry.
As unionism is no longer compulsory, unions exist on the fees of about 20% of the workforce.
Via the ACTU and its annual minimum wage case some 18% low income earners get wage increases, for the most part they are not union members

Unions exist?
How would I know,a worker who stood alone often in its defense.
Who was blessed with the greatest honor I could ever have wished for.
To serve workers as an official in Australia's best union.
Maybe they exist so kids who get under paid, eat in a dirt floored shed a hundred meters from anyone can call me after a boss screams at them not to laugh while eating lunch.
Too many think unions exist for reasons I can never agree with.
If my giving a non unionist low income earner a tip is evil so be it.
While proud of my love of the ALP, my lifelong service to it.
Its birth place came from within the union movement.
Too many, in NSW have forgotten that, right now pain, fear, and loathing is alive in country NSW because some thought wrongly the union movement was their mate no matter what.
There totally rudely I diverted the thread, never trust an honest unionist we tend to get very defensive if proded.

It is well possible suze. That's why I often have to contort myself into a strange position to aim at the bowl in the mornings.

WHAT'S THE STORY MORNING...

Hang on, aren't you a nurse suze?

I think Howler needs the cold spoon treatment, suze ;)

Houellebecq <" Hang on, aren't you a nurse suze?"
I sure am H, but strangely enough I have never watched any patient peeing in that state!

Maybe the guys I have known wait for a while, and then attempt to pee?
Messy toilets or floors are very annoying.

CJ, I have used cold flannels in the past, but never cold spoons! :)

I had no intention of adding anything further to this thread as I don't think either sex 'rools' when it comes to bad manners. Male or female can be just as vile, belligerent and insensitive as the other.

However, some people can really get up one's nose can't they?

Well that was my thought reading the following article from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8623332.stm

Just to get you really interested here's a quote from above mentioned article:

"...He said it had some very unusual features, including just one single jaw, eight very large teeth and extremely small genitalia..."

Now I am not going to name names, but there are indeed some posters who really get up my nose at times...

While I'm on a roll; one poster who never gets up my nose is Suzeonline. However, my imagination won't stop considering the Niagara Falls of pee that her family must produce if such epic flow produces as much microscopic spray as a flushing toilet. Can't get the image out of my head, so I had to share.

A goodweegend to all.

I'm thankful I don't get up your nose Severin!

When commenting on bacteria that frequent toilet airspace, I was talking about microscopic "sprays" of these airborne bacteria.

One doesn't need a 'Niagara Falls flow' into the toilet to release those little nasties I'm afraid, but still an amusing analogy nevertheless! :)

I did not want to make it an anti woman thing severin, and do not think I did.
I have been reminded by a post here it is much more likely men are to blame for the bad manners of some women.
We DO crawl a bit and it becomes expected we will continue to do so.
No racial statement intended but in the middle east women walk behind and obey rules we could not live with.
So maybe it is based on culture even within our western world.
Every generation has and will continue to say they behaved better than todays.
I thank howler for the input, no one can now doubt men can be rude too.
Hot, very hot spoon may help.

Suze

I'm glad you took my analogy in the good humour that was intended. My family will continue to close lid before flushing - it is an equitable system that everyone is happy with - no arguments regarding airborne bacteria, especially because the rule here is if its yellow let it mellow etc...

Belly

I do think it is more noticeable when women behave badly - not so long ago women were expected to behave like proper little princesses always 'nice' and 'polite'. Some older people just a get bit of a shock when a woman behaves with the same level of nastiness and aggression as a man. Frankly, I think both sexes need to count to ten before letting fly. Courtesy applies to both sexes - like giving up a seat for an elderly or disabled person - what should one's gender have to do with it?

And then there are those people for whom one learns not to hold high expectations - not even being dumped into a bath full of ice would take care of them - their raison d'etre is to upset people. We have example of both sexes (who have nothing better to do than snipe at others) on OLO as well.

PS

At least those people I was referring to above have a name:

"Nose leeches"

suzeonline, "I have used cold flannels in the past, but never cold spoons!"

Products of the English public schools might enjoy cold flannels.
- With apologies to those long-suffering Poms who can laugh at themselves more readily than we ever could.

Where would we be without English comedy? It is probably where the mythical cold spoon came from. I can imagine Matron (Hattie Jacques) reaching for one to control the men's ward during Nurse Sandra May's (Barbara Windsor) shift.

Houellebecq: <"Poor swedish woman?

A: What kind of door to door salesman posts links on opinion sites. It's probably a scam to get donations.
B: The chance to rain on a parade of sympathetic love-in was irresistible
c: I was trying to get pynchme to bite as she ran away from an argument I was winning on another thread.
D: Trying generally to create more outrage as it's been pretty boring lately without anti.">

Sorry a reply has taken a while; just catching up.

If you'd felt any empathy towards the woman whose daughter was murdered you could have expressed it. It's clear from your remarks now that you didn't read about her daughter's murder or the non-investigation of same. There was a voluntary petition. No donations were sought. It's pretty low that you had to take that topic and try to make it all about you and your gripes.

I've never run away from any argument; don't recall you ever winning one - which might be why you run around from board to board dropping my name - but then I don't enter into arguments to "win", but to state my case. I express myself when it suits me and I notice something interesting; I'm less inclined to bother with your trademark tedium.

Thomas Hardy's Tess of the D’Urbervilles screened on ABC1 TV, Sunday 8:30, 11 and 18 April 2010 could be said to provide an interesting perspective on manners. I leave this piece written in two parts after watching the two episodes with readers here at The Forum.-Ron in Tasmania.

Part 1:

I first came across Thomas Hardy in grades 11 and 12 in Burlington Ontario. His novels The Mayor of Casterbridge and Tess of the D’Urbervilles were the novels we studied in those last two years at Burlington Central High School. I was a good student, near the top of my class, but I remember finding Hardy: heavy, cumbersome, difficult reading, although nowhere near as difficult as the Shakespeare play we also studied each year. I did not come across Hardy again until some thirty years later in the early 1990s when I taught matriculation English at a technical and further education college in Perth Western Australia. Again, it was Tess of the D’Urbervilles.

And so it was, when I saw this novel brought to life by some of Britain’s best young acting talent, filmed in the U.K. in 2008 and shown on ABC11 on the last two Sunday evenings, I could not help but reflect and so wrote this prose-poem. Greek humanism in its optimistic and pessimistic, cynical and skeptical, forms and not Abrahamic revelation, in the end, stands out in Hardy. It is a road I would have gone down myself had I not discovered a new Flame-Voice and Its extreme solutions, a new prophet placed in Israel’s oven where the heat consumes everything but compassion.2-Ron Price with thanks to 1 ABC1 TV, Sunday 8:30, 11 and 18 April 2010 and 2Roger White, Occasions of Grace, George Ronald, Oxford, 1992, p.102 and p.97.

How could one forget your words:
happiness is but one occasional....
episode in a general drama of pain!

Thomas Hardy's Tess of the D’Urbervilles screened on ABC1 TV, Sunday 8:30, 11 and 18 April 2010 could be said to provide an interesting perspective on manners. I leave this piece written in two parts after watching the two episodes with readers here at The Forum.-Ron in Tasmania.

Part 2:

No wonder I found your ponderous
descriptions tested my patience back
at the age of 16 when the oils of youth
were bulging out seeking to grease and
light my life beyond that world of sport,
school, girls and endlessly familiar stuff
that filled my life and days way-far-then.

Your reputation for extreme pessimism,
your pessimistic pantheism, precedence
of feeling over thought.....religious and
metaphysical uncertainties...a nostalgia
for the things of everyday, a longing for
lost faith, seeing change as superficial in
your world—its doomed stronghold of
ancient ways of life, morbid in a way, but
also sublimely compassionate: your many-
sided personality, Thomas, very attractive.

Your sense of dignity, of awe and a power
of endurance in a timeless universe: what a
grand and strange place which we glimpse
only momentarily through the accidents and
coincidences, the tragic fate and a series of
kicks on the long road, long haul to disaster:
no light at the end of your tunnel, eh, Thomas?

Ron Price
16 April 2010