How many people and businesses have to suffer before people start to realise that following a political party is good for us.

We have all seen that the cost of electricity is going up especially in NSW by 64% over 3 years due to Rudds plans.

What do you think of this and how many people do you think will starve or go cold and end up dying due to this.

Spin will only get you so far in government and this type of pricing will hurt everyone.
Businesses will have to put costs up to cover this, so food will go up.

tapp wrote:

< What do you think of this and how many people do you think will starve or go cold and end up dying due to this. >

That's the plan. Our illustrious do nothing slime ball is right behind the UN's Agenda 21. Read up about it, it will shock you.

Here's a start
http://green-agenda.com/agenda21.html

Tapp.It is time for a new political party that does not take corporate donations and believes in our nation's sovereignty.We have been betrayed by both the major parties.

I will not vote for either of them again.There must be a large group of like minded individuals who have the desire and passion to forge new ideals.Labor and Liberal are monetary dinosaurs that must be cast into the abyss of human failures.

Did go to that site and have looked through it, yes it seems that we are to all be one.

And with regards to another political party been there tried that, got laughted at so will again be running as an independent.

Somebody has to stand up and it seems people are getting to say enough is enough.

All we get from the parties representatives is when we say no they say yes.

Which plans are these, tapp?

>>We have all seen that the cost of electricity is going up especially in NSW by 64% over 3 years due to Rudds plans.<<

I just compared the electricity bill I got five years ago with my current (sorry!) one, and the like-for-like increase is 17.9%, over the period.

What am I now supposed to expect?

Tapp, I think you will find that around Australia, electricity
charges are due to rise, for similar reasons.

Alot of the old networks are fairly clapped out and need upgrading.
We are switching to gas from brown coal to some extent, that will
be more expensive, but more envirnoment friendly. Energy globally
however, be it coal, gas or whatever is heading upward in the medium
to longer term.

At the moment we pay around 20c kw/h in WA, which I don't think
is unreasonable. I paid that much in Switzerland, 35 years ago!

But there is of course much that consumers can do, to help themselves.

Solar hot water systems work like a charm, I've had one for around
25 years now. Some people still insist on a clothes dryer, when the
sun does a marvelous job, especially in a sunny country like Australia.

Widescreen tvs are common as chips now. But plasmas are electricty
guzzlers compared to LCDs or LEDs. So consumers have a choice.

But of course if you really want to help the poor, which you imply,
then ban the pokies. For the amount of money those machines consume,
commonly from the poor, makes power bills look like a fairy story.

Yabby,they are jacking the price of electricity to upgrade it for a fire sale sell off.So we the consumer pay for our own demise.Why would anyone sell off an income earing asset such as power,state lotteries etc? We then get extra taxes to pay for the shortfalls.

The monetary bubble cannot for ever be fed at the behest of real jobs and productivity.It is going to collapse yet again and your shares and super will be stolen again by the perveyers of monetary illusion.

Arjay, I don't follow NSW politics in particular, but by what
I've read in the financial press, Govts are keen to sell their
power generators, as most of them are old and clapped out, based on
coal and the distribution system is much the same. So it will take
billions and billions to bring things up to scratch and nobody can
even tell you if it will be gas or coal to drive them in future,
as there is uncertainty about the price of carbon.

I watched a crew of 8 blokes changing a single pole on my place
recently. I'd hate to think what that little joke cost the power
company, for those power workers make great money. Given the
thousands of km of power lines, replacing a great many of those
poles will keep them poor.

Luckily I don't pay attention to your economic advice, or I would
die of worry :)

What we will also have is that workers will be after a pay rise to survive and then those on government payments will also require this.

Businesses will then have to put their prices up again for the increased costs.

But the labor and union people here must have a back up plan as to be not associated with these costs as they would be screaming, or they are just waiting for rudd to about face on this legislation which in turn the states are thus putting up costs.

This goes to show the complete incompetence of voting for a political party as they do not represent the people but just those who are members.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent for Charlton

Dear Mr Tapp,

Electrical production facilities are under
State Government control not Federal Government.
And they privatise the sale of the service to the
community.

NSW is expanding facilities for
electrical production to cover a growing population,
and hence the costs increases. Governments may now
want to increase taxes so they collect revenue by
increasing costs on services. You use more, you pay
more.

All infrastructure costs have to be paid out of
tax money and with the increase of population,
production of electricity has to increase and has
to be paid for.

Existing infrastructure maintenance costs have to
be covered. With an increase of the aging population
tax funds have to be adjusted or service prices
increased. There are less working people and more
retired people which affects the tax base.
With the rise of salaries, and cost of
materials and maintenance, funds have to be resourced.
Which has been the case from earlier days of electricity
production. We may complain all we want, but the reality
of the facts are not going to change. If you don't want to
pay more, do not abuse the privilege and don't waste the
electricity. Invest in alternative electrical production
at your own cost. The choice is up to you. People use
solar power, wind power, diesel generators, et cetera,
if they don't want to use the electric grid.

Foxy
i am well aware that funding for electricity is state and also the maitainance required which money has not been spent on these, but wasted on the political agenda.

One should also take note that due to the rudds policy for climate change the costs have to be met and as such the states have to include these.

So the effect is roll down and pass on.

And since you must be aware on what are and is state responsibilities it should be noted that better comments will come from you in future.

I myself are very careful of consumption but wasted money is the responsibility of the governments, If they do not envisage the requirements for system upgrades then what are they spending the money on, a 10,000.00 dollar hammer, a 500,000.00 dollar office refurb, so responsibility goes to where it should the government, and since it is labor it is a hurry and wait game.

wait to starve, wait to freeze, wait to get sacked

we all cannot be as gullible as party members

Stuart Ulrich
Independent for Charlton

I'm still trying to understand what the fuss is about, tapp.

You made a statement:

>>We have all seen that the cost of electricity is going up especially in NSW by 64% over 3 years due to Rudds plans.<<

I asked - quite reasonably, I thought - "Which plans are these, tapp?"

No response.

Could you at least provide some references?

Dear Mr Tapp,

You claim that money has not been spent on
maintenance but wasted on the "political
agenda." Could you show some evidence of this?
What specifically are you referring to?
And what are you Sir, proposing as an alternative
solution to the problem?

You then refer to the PM's policy on climate change.
If by that you mean the Emissions Trading Scheme.
That will be paid for by the polluters, the large
corporations. What then is your alternative solution?

By the way the highest office refurbishments it may
interest you to know were done for the Liberal Party,
especially Mr Howard's offices in retirement. He is
the highest user of the retirement PM benefit, costing
taxpayers over $4 million to date.

And the Labor Government's spending was a result of the
global financial crisis created by the Bush Administration
in the US. Of whom the previous PM was the greatest
supporter.

As for my making better comments in the future.
I'm not running for office as you are, so may I
humbly suggest that you lead by example - instead of
simply consistently condeming the Labor Government.
Which is all that the current Opposition seems capable
of doing. Perhaps you may have greater success by
joining like-minded people in the Liberal Party?

Tony Abbott would be delighted to have you.
He needs people with your contribution on the front bench!

I am sorry i didnt uhderstand when you said plan.
this of course would be rudds emmission trading scheme.

Also regarding to big poluters this would include the state government who do own the electricity.

So the costs from the ets will then be passed down.

for joining the liberal party you still dont get it.

McKay and Combet have said yes to privitisation, hang on a minute

are they not there to represent the people of their electrol districts and the call has been no to privitisation.

This is what you get from party people, representing what the party says not what the people say.

So as i have said before no to the parties and i am not for sale.
I am here to represnt the people not a party.

*If by that you mean the Emissions Trading Scheme.
That will be paid for by the polluters, the large
corporations*

I've got news for you there Foxy, for the big
corporations will have to pass their costs on to
the consumer, who ultimately pays.

Business Spectator had quite some discussion about
what will happen in Victoria, which has the worst
problem with brown coal, so would face the highest
co2 costs. Most of those power stations are mortgaged
to the roof to the banks. The owners arn't going to
operate at a loss, which they would if they could
not pass on their co2 costs. So the first thing they
would do is cut maintenance, making the Victorian
grid increasingly unreliable and more prone to blackouts.

The next step would be to simply hand the keys to the
banks, rather then lose money constantly. Meantime
as there is no certainty about all this, there is also
a lack of new investment in new power generation.

Companies like Origin are happy to build power stations
based on gas, but electricity will cost quite a bit more,
so consumers have to face it, corporations arn't going
to pay it.

The whole idea of an ETS is that faced with higher power
charges, consumers figure out how to use less. From insulation
to solar hot water, consumers have many choices.

Dear Mr Tapp,

What people do you represent exactly?
Being able to say that "you're not for
sale," is very commendable, but who's
buying?

If you keep doing what you're doing,
you'll keep getting what you've got!

Good Luck with that!

Dear Yabby,

My understanding of the ETS proposal is that
the polluters will pay and the Government will
compensate the users in reduced taxes.

The added question is now will the government really compensate the people.
They say they will now but just like the sell off of the electricity they said no to that ,then changed their minds and still trying to sell it off.

So does the public really trust these governments,
the answer is no

I also have to wonder why when there is a concern about the health and well being of the people ,there are those who instead of voicing their opinion they run to mummy and protect a political party.

Also to issue is what is 20% of 384 million that one contractor has got with the state government.
Now this is only one contractor and 20% is 76,800,000.00 for fees, now to me i am wondering how much of this will go back as donations to labor and the unions, as this is a very good payday from the BER.

Now we the taxpayer have to pay this back ,but that is ok, also it is invisaged that interest rates will be climbing to 10%, so we will have to see what happens there.

When i say i am not for sale this is in regards to selling out ones reasons and morals, and the people that one stands up for.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent for Charlton

Still don't get it, tapp

>>I am sorry i didnt uhderstand when you said plan. this of course would be rudds emmission trading scheme.<<

Was this in response to my question "Which plans are these, tapp?"

Which was asked because you have still not justified the statement in your opening post:

>>We have all seen that the cost of electricity is going up especially in NSW by 64% over 3 years due to Rudds plans.<<

Where is the evidence that:

i) electricity prices are going to increase by "64%"

ii) "the cost of electricity is going up especially in NSW"

iii) that these increases are "due to Rudds plans"

I'm happy to debate an issue when the arguments are on the table to be examined. But at the moment, all I can see is a bit of political grandstanding.

On the basis that you are careless with figures, vague in your accusations and unable to answer a direct question, you will make a fantastic politician, tapp.

Dear Mr Tapp,

I appreciate your patience and your explanations.

I wish you every success in your political
endeavours.

"I will not vote for either of them again", said Arjay.

Hard luck... the voting system requires you to place you final preference somewhere.

So, ultimately, you will vote for one or the other of the major parties, or just abandon voting altogether.

We need something like the Tasmaniacs system, where independents might have a chance.

Pericles
obviously i do not know if you read newspapers or see the tv media or even know what is going on in federal parliament

but due to cost of commiting to an ets the cost of carbon pricing etc.

The 64% is over 3 years in NSW so we can say about to make it easy 20% per yaer for the next 3 years.
This has been well documented in the media in NSW.

This was staed and i will find it for you give me a couple of days where it stated that prices were to increase due to the ets.

Yes it was responce to your question as you did ask what plans were these.

Careless in my figures well you will have to blame that on the NSW labor government if the figure of 64% is incorrect.

Grandstanding no , just vague with the question that was originally asked, but quite happy to answer any questions.

What have you heard or in fact which state do you live in.

As I understand it, the recent electricity price rises in NSW are to pay to update dated infrastructure. But just wait. These prices rises are just the slightest taste of what the dark greens have in mind for everyone.

RawMustard
Thanks for interesting link. It reminds me so much of the periodic outbreaks of religious hysteria in Christendom during the last two thousand years. Although the new religion disavows Christianity, yet there are so many strong parallels: the belief in a paradise of no natural scarcity ("sustainability"), the belief that man's sin of materiality is at the root of the whole problem ("consumerism"), the belief in self-abnegation as the way to deliverance, the belief in a multi-national corporation responsible for collective piety and able to commune with the ineffable Great Spirit; on and on. It would be interesting to see a detailed study of the parallels. As someone said in OLO a while back, the whole thing is really worthy of a chapter in Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.

Take your time, tapp.

>>obviously i do not know if you read newspapers or see the tv media or even know what is going on in federal parliament but due to cost of commiting to an ets the cost of carbon pricing etc. The 64% is over 3 years in NSW so we can say about to make it easy 20% per yaer for the next 3 years. This has been well documented in the media in NSW. This was staed and i will find it for you give me a couple of days where it stated that prices were to increase due to the ets.<<

You say "this has been well documented", yet you need "a couple of days" to find the information upon which you started the thread.

>>We have all seen that the cost of electricity is going up especially in NSW by 64% over 3 years due to Rudds plans<<

As I pointed out, my own experience is of relatively stable prices over the past three years. So if we are going to see a 64% increase, I for one am interested.

It really would help, though, to provide the references inside the original piece. Then we wouldn't have to scrabble around trying to find out whether you are making a genuine point that we can all discuss, or simply blowing smoke.

To all of those who are feeling jaded with the current political parties!
The Climate Sceptics Party is broadening its base and changing its name. It wants to provide a vehicle for such as you who are tired of smoke and mirrors as well as firm committments that disappear.
Go to Climate Sceptics Party and contact President Leon Ashby for more info.

Electricity prices
There should be enough references for you for the moment

http://www.smh.com.au/national/anguish-as-electricity-prices-set-to-rise-again-20090520-bfsc.html
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/electricity-prices-to-rise-by-up-to-64-20100318-qgk9.html
http://www.euaa.com.au/
http://www.farnorthcoaster.com.au/category/business/
http://www.futuresustainability.com.au/news_details/news/electricity_price_to_rise_under_renewable_energy_plan
http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/rage-against-electricity-rises-add-your-name-to-our-petition-against-the-nsw-electricity-rise-and-well-send-your-comments-on-to-premier-keneally/20100319-qjgu.html
http://www.dynamicbusiness.com.au/articles/articles-news/martin-ferguson-electricity-prices-1239.html
http://www.openyoureyesnews.com/category/environment/page/2/
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/electricity-bills-could-rise-by-more-than-250-a-year/story-e6frf7kx-1225765367552
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/electricity-to-rise-55-a-quarter-from-july-1-20090609-c250.html
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw-act/secondary-shock-as-cost-passed-on/story-e6freuzi-1225852041295?from=public_rss
http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/city-may-have-to-lift-rates/1781704.aspx
http://www.anz.com/documents/economics/Economic%20consequences%20of%20an%20ETS%20August%2008.pdf
http://rouse-hill-times.whereilive.com.au/news/story/electricty-prices-to-soar/
http://money.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=1028844

It gets worse.
It seems that ETS schemes are easy to rort.
The ETS scheme in Europe has collapsed. The price fell from E30 to E1
over night. It seems that a number of recycled credits were inserted
into the system from Hungary. The dealers do not know which are real
credits and which are fraudulent.

If the generators in Victoria are unable to pass on the cost of the
indulgences they will close the power stations, or rather the banks
will close the stations.
Martin Luther where are you ?

I believe this problem has not yet been solved.

Unless the Federal government is able to find a way to make the ETS
scheme fiddle proof it should not be implemented.
The brokers are all ready to start dealing in derivatives of the
credits and make billions in the handling of them.
There are even voluntary credit dealings available now !
Amazing !

Looks like the pink bats all over again.

Imagine an economic system where users paid more for fossil derived energy and less for clean sustainable energy sources.

Imagine how fast the transition to renewables and clean air/waterways/earth would be.

I know I'm just a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

Apologies to John Lennon.

Yes, well dream on. It is a matter of scale.
Even the best hope, geothermal, using the radioactive heat from the
earth, will take a long time to get cranked up to scale but while there
is another site in the Hunter Valley I can't see it providing anywhere
near the amount of electricity we use now inside 20 years.

I have just finished reading Richard Heinbergs book Blackout and he
does not give much hope of not needing coal before global peak coal
around 2025.
All the talk about wind and solar is just talk unless someone invents
a storage medium for electricity that will scale up.

I am finding a direct link to K Rudd a little hard to make. Had the ETS gone through then yep the evidence trail is good. Electricity is a state based operation, most electricity networks around Australia like the majority of our infrastructure is stuffed. To fix it costs money. We as Ausies pay generally speaking stuff all for our energy requirements. Electricity, fuel and gas are all very cheap in this country so when we consider that all this work must be done to improve the networks then the price must rise, its logic. One of the big problems we have in this country is we are so used to having what ever we want and stuff the pollution and waste of how we get it, we also developed all this in the first place under a socialist government when all these services we supplied. Lets not forget we had to go to the greed based free market globalisation way of doing things, well its time to pay. stop complaining.

I believe the direct link is the ETS/Cprs bill.

So here is some more information

Electricity prices CPRS
http://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/welcome.asp
http://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/Terms%20of%20Reference%20-%20Regulated%20electricity%20retail%20tariffs%20and%20charges%20for%20small%20customers%202010-2013%20-%2026%20June%202009%20-%20WEBSITE%20DOCUMENT.PDF

http://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/Final%20Determination%20-%20Review%20of%20regulated%20retail%20tariffs%20and%20charges%20for%20electricity%202010-2013%20-%20March%202010%20-%20WEBSITE%20DOCUMENT.PDF
http://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/Consultant%20Report%20-%20KPMG%20-%202010%20Retail%20Electricity%20Review%20Model%20Advice%201%20R%20Model%20-%20March%202010%20-%20WEBSITE%20DOCUMENT.PDF
http://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/Consultant%20Report%20-%20SFG%20-%20Final%20Report%20-%20Estimation%20of%20the%20regulated%20profit%20margin%20for%20electricity%20retailers%20in%20NSW%20-%20March%202010%20-%20WEBSITE%20DOCUMENT.PDF
http://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/Consultant%20Report%20-%20Frontier%20Economics%20-%20Methodology%20and%20Assumptions%20%202nd%20addendum%20-%20Review%20of%20regulated%20retail%20tariffs%20and%20charges%20for%20electricity%202010%20to%202013%20-%20WEBSITE%20DOCUMENT.PDF