Belly:"EVERY EMPLOYER HAS A DUTY OF CARE TO HIS WORKERS."

Speaking of getting animated...

By complying with the rules set by the Union-dominated Steering Committee, an employer fulfilled his duty of care. Can you prove that any of the employers of the people who died failed to comply with those rules? How?

By allowing substandard training to be provided for petty political reasons, the Unions showed they care more for the political ambitions of some of the elite top echelon than for the lives of workers.

You should be ashamed for trying to defend that.

Belly.. this thread is getting to be a very poor show.

I am a unioniist, I resigned from the ALP when I realised that it was not intersted in 'the national interest' at all, any more than any political party is, and I have had my own run-ins with employers BUT... lets be a bit honest.

Sure, employers have a responsibility to their employees... but employees have a responsibility to themselves too you know.

And that requires them to work out what is 'not on', and to not do it.

I am well aware of the pressures to do what is not safe... but to work in an unsafe manner is a choice.

I am happy to blame bosses.... but there is always another story too, whatever the imposition of 'do it or you'll get the sack'...

This goes directly to the organisation of families and schools.

We teach people to obey without question... in religious groups they call it 'faith'... in the post WW2 trials they called it 'war crimes'... researchers observe a willingness of people to obey and conform even when it is clear they or others are in danger...

I've been a union organiser myself... and I found that far too many people were complicit in their own problems by failing to challenge anything that went on about them.

We need to teach people to think, challenge and act... and work towards having a self sufficient, intelligent, self activated workforce, be they 'boss' or 'wurker'.

Unions would be better employed by reorganising the education system, and teaching their members how to challenge authority... including how unions are ruin.

As a population, we all need to reject the clowns that pass as politicians today, and start demanding some reasonable level of intelligence and performance from them, and from all 'leaders'.

It is far too easy, particularly with the low grade 'meeja' we suffer from, to be raised to Messiah status, yet still have absolutely nothing to say...like Rudd and Abbott both.

The Blue Cross union delegate? member or official what one?
You should be aware if you have been any of the above casuals are disposable human beings.
Unable to say anything or they get no work.
Unions, all of them run a just say no!
Unsafe? do not do it program.
Workers under pressure constantly do dangerous things they do not want to.
Union dominated? those people blaming unions are the same who constantly say unions have too much power.
And did any of you get those phone calls?
The schemes was haunted by shonks like the roof painters who do not paint, tilers who are criminals and people offering me money back if I let them sign me up.
Have you anti tried to talk to a Polly? far worse than the I will check to see if he is in lie.
Public servants a group who exist to do nothing defend their ministers from truth.
as recent history shows some defend any one from truth by telling lies.
Garrett has no union protection, well a few may like his music, he is not hiding behind us , he has done no less or worse than dozens of useless beggers who both party's refuse to dump.

Belly, I note that you did not answer my simple question: do you have proof that the employers of the people who died were acting outside the rules established by the steering committee?

Belly:"Garrett has no union protection"

Yes, we already established that unlike Joe Ludwig he doesn't have a Dad who's got his very own Union and that there was a "good union man" who missed out on a safe seat because Garrett was parachuted in.

We've also already established that the Steering Committee which was responsible for setting the rules of the rollout, including the training requirements, was Union-controlled.

4 people are dead and dozens of homes burnt down because those rules were obviously inadequate and the Unions are running a mile, leaving Garrett, as both a Latham pick and an outsider (a natural Green, really) to take the fall.

Nice politics, shame about the ethics.

Belly...."The Blue Cross union delegate? member or official what one?"

All three, and in a few unions.

"You should be aware if you have been any of the above casuals are disposable human beings. Unable to say anything or they get no work.
Unions, all of them run a just say no! Unsafe? do not do it program.
Workers under pressure constantly do dangerous things they do not want to."

Indeed Belly, being a casual is a dogs life...which is why employers like employing casuals, so they can be disposed of when not needed.

This is why state governments employ so many casuals in schools and hospitals, and why 70% of university staff are casuals with no career prospects, and many months without work per year.

People just like to moan about unions, whatever they do.

But we all have choices to make, and those who choose to do clearly dangerous work, or perhaps better out, choose to work dangerously, are still making an active choice in the matter.

Saying 'no' is a very liberating experience, and not enough people have the courage to try, was often my experience as an official.

The Blue Cross,

>>I've been a union organiser myself... and I found that far too many people were complicit in their own problems by failing to challenge anything that went on about them.<<

Spot on.

>>We need to teach people to think, challenge and act... and work towards having a self sufficient, intelligent, self activated workforce, be they 'boss' or 'wurker'.<<

Ditto. This goes to changing the culture - an absolutely necessary precondition to sustainable, positive change.

>>Unions would be better employed by reorganising the education system, and teaching their members how to challenge authority... including how unions are ruin.<<

Agree, so long as it's not left up to some intrepid bloke and his dog to take on the system. It has to be done in numbers or not at all.

>>As a population, we all need to reject the clowns that pass as politicians today, and start demanding some reasonable level of intelligence and performance from them, and from all 'leaders'.<<

If blogsites like this one and TV shows like Q&A are anything to go by, people are starting to quite stridently question the decision-makers. The most important thing is for individuals to think originally and creatively and thereby illuminate aspects of the problems out there that pollies and policy makers have not seen or thought of before. If people's participation is even from across all sectors of society and all vantage points, you get a well-balanced go-forward dynamic happening. You then solve two major problems: lethargy that allows problems to develop in the first place and lumpiness in application which causes hurt for people sideswiped by the positive actions, or attempts at action, of others.