1500 air-conditioners are being installed in homes in southeast Queensland every week!

Queensland’s energy minister, Stephen Robertson, said that it is this extra demand that is driving up the price of power.

The average household is looking at a $250 increase in 2010.

(Courier Mail 19-20 December)

A few things are obvious:

Queensland’s population growth needs to be mitigated, as this is the main factor in driving the enormous increase in the demand for power in Queensland.

Australia’s massive immigration rate also needs to be brought way down.

There is a huge connection between population growth and greenhouse gas emissions….which is obvious to everyone except our decision-makers, so it seems!

There is a strong connection between population growth and rising prices, as well as declines in various forms of infrastructure and services.

We are just absolutely nowhere near significantly modifying peoples’ behaviour in this country, despite heightened concerns about climate change.

Now that Anna Bligh’s energy minister has so strongly connected population growth with rising greenhouse gas emissions and rising electricity prices, it is high time that she pulled her finger out and got stuck into formulating policies for the reduction of the population influx into SEQ…and got stuck into Rudd for continuing with a policy of massively high population growth for the whole country.

Ludwig wrote:
"1500 air-conditioners are being installed in homes in southeast Queensland every week!"

Don't worry about the homes, they'll be taken care of. Think of government offices, they're putting in new ones everyday, I know I do it! These thieves scream if the temp get's anywhere near 21c either way. While they want you to turn yours off, these shysters are putting in more. They don't give a hoot about the climate, they just want you to live in a bark hut so they can eat lobster and caviar every day!

It's not just in SE Queensland, Ludwig.

An electrician friend of mine, who only works in this district,
spends most of his summer doing air con installations. The unemployed,
pensioners, you name it, today its standard and as Raw Mustard point
out standard too in all Govt depts.

Yup, it blows out the peak loads dramatically and it still pisses
me off on every day over 40deg, that I can feel all that heat, I
gather its around 900W /m2, yet nobody has come up with an efficient
system to convert that energy to cooling. Instead, we burn coal
hundreds of km away, it kind of makes no sense to me.

Perhaps rather all this carbon trading, they should just offer
50 million $ first prize, for anyone who comes up with the best viable
alternative and see if that gets those creative minds going.

Technology and innovation and about the only real alternative that
we have.

Classic and true writings of this day and age.

"We are just absolutely nowhere near significantly modifying peoples’ behaviour in this country, despite heightened concerns about climate change."

And you never will. The people of today are so soft, they whinge and run for the quickest quick-fix. And as we grow, the government will stick their claws in at every given possibility with the knowing of overpopulation and the ten rats in a box reality. More people, more money to be made and that's all that's on the menu. They will copy the US and others no matter what. Time to see the future, and where this is all going.
1500 new air-conditioners a week! Where do I buy some shares in the industry?
This investment is going to score big. Smile.

The elderly on the other hand? I wonder how many will die this year?

And will there be any Government assistance for them I wonder or are they just another statistic of an overcrowded hot and drying Australia?

Not Happy jan!

Once again the government is blaming the public for the government's own lack of planning.

They did the same with water and largely got away with it. They were able to drive a wedge into public opinion by giving the public, shock jocks and journo hacks some whipping boys to blame, eg 'selfish' consumers who had 'long' showers and watered their gardens.

In this case the government is labelling 'selfish' consumers who install air conditioners as the whipping boys.

However it is the government who should be tarred and feathered for not taking the advice of its own engineers. Also, it isn't Joe Public who is responsible for continuing record immigration numbers without the infrastructure to support the resultant unsustainable population growth.

The problem is not air conditioners.
It is poorly built mansions, even normal homes not built to stay cooler/warmer.
It is also power, we never should have stopped the solar subsidy's.
Power has gone up in rural NSW, my power use went down, lowest in 3 years but bill went up 30%
I can point to my state ALP intention to sell its voters, sorry power and the need for users to fund the sale by paying more even before private enterprise robs us as an incentive for one thief to buy from another, as the reason.
power without glory here.

My power costs for the year to 4.12.09 were down by $754. First year on solar power. The generated power was 1518 kwhrs.
That left me with a total cost for the 12 months at $286
Two more solar panels and i won't have a power bill at all.
They are the greatest things ever.

Ludwig;
There is only one way to stop immigration and that is to stop
Development applications being approved.
Pretty drastic, but unless we stop the building of new houses we will
not stop immigration. It would even stop the boat people.

My son who lives in Melbourne has a system, an evaporative system I
believe, that is quite effective. Not sure how it would go in Queensland.
Reverse cycle heating is more efficient than any other form of heating.
I believe it achieves around 140% efficiency so long as the outside
temperature is above about 5C.

<< Think of government offices, they're putting in new ones everyday, I know I do it! >>

RawMustard, there is certainly a lack of will in the public service to try and set any sort of an example. I know, I’m in it!

----

<< Two more solar panels and i won't have a power bill at all. They are the greatest things ever. >>

Sounds good Desmond. But of course we need to consider the total costs, not just the power bill.

I wonder how much the solar panels cost to manufacture, install, service and decommission, both in monetary terms and CO2 output.

Then I wonder how this compares to the same electricity production from coal via the grid?

Do you get a government subsidy for the installation of solar panels?

Are they likely to be damaged in a big storm, with high winds or big hailstones?

Desmond;

You bill is down by $754 for 1518 KWH !
75400/1518 = 49.67 cent per kwh ?
Where do you live that has electricity so expensive ?

There has to be some other factor in your costs.

kwh Used 4435
1575 watt solar array
1518 kwh's generated
1430 kwh's imported @ .20 cents / kw = $ 286.
750 kwh's Exported @ .60 cents / kw = $ 450 Paid as credit
737 kwh's generated used in house
A power loss of 2/cent
12.15 kwh's used / day / year in house
average / year for generation = 6.4285 kwh's / day
Savings on previous year $ 754.
Cost for year $ 286.
I am counting the cost of kwh's not service fees which we don't have any control over. Maybe a good thing lower service charges for those with solar power.
2/cent of power disappears in the system between the power converter and the meter.

Desmond, OK tks understand now.
What happens if you amortise the installation over say 5 or 10 years ?
Do you have batteries on it ?
If not it looks like your night time load is small.

*750 kwh's Exported @ .60 cents / kw = $ 450 Paid as credit*

Ah Desmond, so in fact you are being subsidised by other
power users/taxpayers.

For of course the power company can't onsell that power for
60c.

Its a great feelgood scheme, but works by moving money from
one pocket to the other by Govt mandate, not by the fact
that solar panels can generate power at an affordable price.

So its not the answer for the rest of us.

the facts on electricity are simple

generating electricity is a fixed cost business.

Peak generating output might only only needed for a few minutes a day but the cost to provide for those peaks is consistent even when a lower peak is needed.

so a bit of "fuel" might be saved but the vast majority of costs roll on regardless.

and so, with this sort of "infrastructure", regardless what you save, if the resource is there to supply the peak need when it is wanted,

whatever you do to save energy

means you are, infact, saving nothing.

the only "saving" comes from not building another power station

Hence the benefit of inter-state electricity grids.

I would say you are burying your head in the sand. If every house in au had a solar system don't you recon it would make a difference in the power generated.
I have a co generators license to supply power to the grid. The credit is payed in power imported. so if there is any money changing hands it would be at cost not retail. Germany is paying $1.20 / kwh.
The amount of roof space on industrial sheds would be ideal, and make them more power savvy.

I'm not giving up my aircon, and chances are, if it's actually getting hotter, I'm even LESS likely to give them up.

*If every house in au had a solar system don't you recon it would make a difference in the power generated.*

Indeed it would make a difference, but the cost would be so large,
that the scheme would be unsustainable and collapse.

The fact is Desmond, that the 60c or 1.20 per KW/h has little to
do with the cost of generating power and everything to do with
politics, ie Govts pretending to me doing something about climate
change.

So the politics stacks up, but the economics doesen't.

The AFR recently reviewed all the state schemes, NSW is the most
generous. But all are limited in size, to limit their cost
and other electricity users are generally wearing the tab.
When it comes to buying solar panels, the Fed Govt wears some of
the tab, but again a limited scheme for good reasons.

Before people rush off to buy solar cells to obtain subsidies,
I gather that only around 30% even use solar for hot water.
Electric hot water systems are still the norm, despite the McMansions
being built.

Desmond, rest assured that if the economics stacked up, my paddocks
would be covered with solar cells! Fact is that they don't, so
you are farming the taxpayer and electrity user for political
reasons, its not a valid economic calculation based on the fundamentals.

Ludwig,
your mentioning of that Cookoo Stephen Robertson & air conditioners reminded me of Queensland's "cooler schools" program a few years ago. It was a classical bureaucratic comedy of wasting public funding. The schools on the Torres Strait islands had their louvres which were near perfect for natural ventilation, removed, the windows closed & air conditioners installed. Another school in Herberton also in far North Qld also got AC despite the fact that the Qld Dept. of Education was advised that Herberton is well over 2000 feet above sea level & needed heating rather than AC. Naturally enough, the bureaucrats looked at the map & decided that the school at Herberton is in the tropics so therefore needed AC. ? Back on the islands which have great breezes all the power stations had to have larger diesel motors installed. Now, everyone expresses concern at the rising sea levels.

Yabby you are wrong you know, Desmond I think you are on track.
A few of us, for less than $1.000 have put solar on the roof.
Not enough to run the house but running on battery's we are blackout proof.
And can run lights radio and a bit more 24/7 for zero costs.
After our group of ham radio operators got that done one first got the scheme you talk of, not to make money by reselling but to cut costs.
Well it cut his, not ours we paid, he got the government cash.
I am planning on retirement to do the same, with battery's not using government money.
Yes it will cost more, but if ten thousand did it?, less power stations surely.
Wind water are no chance here but solar can work .
So very many tell me LPG is no alternative, yet our fleet runs on it, saves $35.000 a year on it, runs cleaner engines at the same speed and power longer without breakdowns.
Savings are only fuel cleaner engines less break downs add much to that , my last two had 350.000 on the clock when changed.
New things need a go.

Isn’t this fascinating. In this thread it was my intention to tie together the different aspects of antisustainability, using the enormous number of new air-conditioners being brought on line in SEQ as an example.

However, the discussion has followed just one aspect, with the others going virtually unaddressed.

The population growth factor in Queensland and the national immigration rate that largely drives it have been bypassed. And the reduction in quality of life as a result of rising prices due to rising demand for energy and other resources has gone unaddressed.

We have a narrow non-holistic focus. In this regard, we on OLO really are a true subset of our society.

While we are discussing the merits of various alternative energy sources, all of which have far less than clear advantages over fossil fuels in terms of their true costs and practicalities, we are letting a much bigger and a much easier factor to deal with just go virtually unaddressed.

The immigration rate is the biggest single factor in driving up our national greenhouse gas emissions and thus in preventing us from significantly reducing them in by 2020. It is also the biggest single factor in taking us diametrically away from a sustainable future. And it is the easiest factor to deal with.

It demands an expression of outrage from every person who is concerned about climate change and a secure future.

Population growth in already population-stressed regions is a little more difficult to deal with, but not as hard by any means as the development of alternative energy sources.

While people generally agree that these are huge factors, I’ve got to wonder why there is so little interest in addressing them.

You're right, Ludwig - and your example is a good one.

All the Bligh government needs to do is to impose a usurious sales tax on air conditioners - as they do with e.g. tobacco and alcohol - to make them so so expensive that nobody can afford to install them.

Several positive effects would flow on from such a tax - less brick boxes would be built, fewer people would want to move to Queensland, and the State government would be more able to afford to fund its health and education services, thus removing the excuse for its rampant privatisation plans!

From FNQ.

I actually prefer the buildings that are climate friendly with open air living in my neck of the woods. The old Queenslander was perfect for the climate. Large decks, lots of trees and lots of open windows. We live a bit like a mushroom. We do have an old small air-con unit in the bedroom which is used on very humid nights for about one hour before bedtime. Otherwise we manage without it. I guess you get acclimated.

Now the newer building have to be air conditioned. When they are not they get mouldy and smelly. They concrete over so much land they then need elaborate drainage systems. Nothing is done that reflect the local conditions. It is just the same developments from another city with some minor adjustments.

The more educated we become the less we think. I am certain of this fact. Just one manual learned by rote for each task sans common sense.

I'm not wrong Belly. No business can buy something at 60c and
sell it at 20c and survive financially, unless its only a fraction
of the total budget and they are generating healthy revenue
elsewhere, to pay for the losses.

That is essentially what is happening with the power buyback schemes.
Because so few people do feed back into the grid, they can afford
to offer it to a select few and claim to be doing something for
the environment, which is great politics right now. If everyone did
it, the whole thing would essentially collapse, which is my point.

Yes, solar cells work, yes they can be installed, but it does not
stack up economically, without huge subsidies.

As Col Rouge pointed out, electricity generation is only one part
of the cost, the infrastructure cost and maintenance are major
expenses. Last time I saw any figures, the actual cost of
coal generated electricity was only 3-4c a kw/h, the rest goes on
infrastructure. That still has to be working and in place, even
when people have solar cells.

Right now a 10kw solar system costs around 50k$. Even if it worked at
100% efficiency for 300 days at 10hours per day, at 20c/kwh that's
around 6000$ a year. In other words, it just covers its depreciation
over time

*to make them so so expensive that nobody can afford to install them.*

Oh sure CJ, with that kind of draconian Govt, people sure would
soon want to leave Queensland

Actually solar cells are worse than most people realise.
Internal Rate of Return (IRR)
is a concept that I was not familiar with and I gather it is used in
the financial investment field.
It has been adapted for use in the energy field as;
Energy Internal Rate of Return, or EIRR.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/51060

Taking this into account reveals that solar cells are not very good performers.
I have only become aware of this today, so I am no expert.
I think I was aware subconsciously of this but not the comparisons
or the detail.

Anyway have a read of it, very interesting.

I think you are confused with economics and advantages.
No body knows the lifespan of a solar system, The origional ones have gone past 40 years and still counting.
What makes them so expensive is they are hand made. One man makes 3 solar panells / day.
Solar panells come with a 30 yr guarentee.
That beats a few years on a car.
There is a fraternity of people that will never see the light of day.
A new array has come online financed by the people who benefit from it but have no roof space. It consists of 150 dwellings, with remote arrays,and solar intensifiers. One intensifiers can take the place of around 30 solar panells.

It is not the air conditioners but the total energy a household uses, and with solar the impact is not as great. Air conditioners are not the problem, it is the exponents of unlimited growth. Fossil fuels and carbon emissions would not be the issue they are if matters of population sustainbility were addressed.

As Belly said even those who are using less energy in the home - their bills have still gone up. There has to be rewards for using less power, not a money grab by greedy corporates with undue influence on governments.

What a bl@@dy con.

Every where, in industry, companies are fighting for market share. Why? Because when they sell more, their unit cost goes down.

How come it's only the electricity industry, in Queensland where, when you sell more, the unit cost goes up? Do you thimk it works like this in the US, where power has been a private enterprise for ever?

As I said. Another Bleigh CON.

Yes hasbeen true, my bill proves it, I am a victim of a government that wants to sell its power supply network.
So it raised the prices first to make the sale look better for who?
The buyers.
After it is sold it will raise again, far above fairness, see it is a tax we have to pay, if we want our lifestyles to remain what they are.
If governments wanted to, they could give interest free loans to us to install battery backed solar power.
Just forget the idea it will only last 30 years it like every thing can be insured.
In 30 years technology will have progressed much more solar has come a very long Way in just ten years.

One question I have not seen resolved is how susceptible to hail
damage are solar panels ?
The insurance rates should tell the story.

Also they are are a target for thieves.

*Solar panells come with a 30 yr guarentee.*

Ho ho ho Desmond, you are clearly more trusting them I am :)

The solar industry is full of fly by night operators and IMHO
your chances are very high, that in 10-15 years, if you should
have a problem, the business will highly likely be gone and
the manufacturer no longer exists, so your chances of actually
cashing in on your guarantee would be minimal and certainly
not allowed for, in any sound economic calculation.

Given that more and more manufacturers have moved to China
and their quality is not always the best, 10 years sounds
like a far more realistic number.

I gather that the last major Australian manufacturer has
shut down.

Yabby,
my BP solar panels lasted 10 years & when I enquired about getting them tested or possibly repaired the agent said "just send them back & we'll replace them, they have a 25 year warranty". I was chuffed at the $ 3000,- worth of replacement at only freight cost. As with all "GREEN" technology solar panels too aren't all that green because of the manufacturing process. Manufacturing & particularly frivolous manufacturing is what needs to be looked at & we need to do something about the mentality of people demanding frivolous goods. Same goes for packaging.

It is good to see that The Australian is running a series of articles on the merits of a big Australia of 35 million people.

The debate on high immigration and high population levels is happening, at last. Thank goodness for that.

This of course has a huge impact on Queensland's population growth rate.

So now that there is very real concern being expressed about the need to cap population nationally, it is high time that Bligh took note and moved away from her outright dismissal of a population cap in Queensland.

And again, for those who may not have read the opening post or subsequent posts in detail - this population factor is at least as important as the development of more efficient air-conditioners and building designs when it comes to mitigating our energy consumption and greenhouse gas output in Qld.

We just cannot meaningfully talk about improving per-capita energy efficiency without talking about stabilising the number of 'capitas'.

Happpppy New Year for tomorra!