Based on the recent shenanigans in the Liberal party, one can see there is a titanic struggle going on between the Conservatism (Abbott) Versus Liberalism (Hockey).
Clearly the Liberal Party is in turmoil.

This raises a number of questions:
- Is liberalism compatible with conservatism in the same party
- who will win, and will the other-side see the light and toe the line?
- what do you think of the choice?
- who will you support?
- if he loses will you support the other?
- and where do you think this leaves the country party (OOPS, national party)?
- what do you think this will mean for the country?

The dynamics in the Liberal party room are certainly fascinating.

- Is liberalism compatible with conservatism in the same party?

About as compatible as a pair of forceps that have been left in one's body after surgery. The body will live but hardly thrive.

- who will win, and will the other-side see the light and toe the line?

Neither will ultimately win (see below) and the hardline counterparts on the other side will never toe the line.

- what do you think of the choice?

A Catch-22. If Abbott wins the leader's job, he'll lose the election. If Hockey wins, he'll lose too. But they'll both lose for different reasons. Abbott, too conservative; Hockey, underdone. Plus Oppositions do not win elections, governments lose them and I don't think it's time for the Government to lose yet.

- who will you support?

Neither, but both. That is, some intelligent blend of the two (or perhaps a remoulded Malcolm Turnbull).

- if he loses will you support the other?

It doesn't matter; it's all about filling the vacuum at the moment.

- and where do you think this leaves the country party (OOPS, national party)?

Ditto as above.

- what do you think this will mean for the country?

Rudd will have his prime ministership extended for as long the Liberals cannot come up with a coherent political message and their MPs put their views ahead of the collective interests of the LP.

Examinator, what do you see as the significant differences / conflicts between what you call conservatism and liberalism (or Abbottism and Hockeyism?)?

I cringe to think of Abbott as their leader moreso than Hockey, but I can’t really put any solid reasoning behind that feeling. I guess I see Hockey as being more likely to initiate the development of sensible policies in relation to population growth, never-ending expansionism, sustainability and all things related to these overridingly important parameters. But only minutely more likely!! I see Abbott as an absolute dinosaur when it comes to these things.

“what do you think of the choice?”

Very little.

“who will you support?”

Hockey.

“if he loses will you support the other?”

After this upheaval has been settled, I’ll support the Libs, regardless of who their leader is, if they show some sort of action towards reducing our absurdly high immigration rate and other things related to sustainability. If they don’t…and let’s face it, they won’t....they’ll get NO support from me!

“where do you think this leaves the country party (OOPS, national party)?”

I couldn’t give a hoot!

“what do you think this will mean for the country?”

The most obvious thing that this turmoil means is an entrenchment of Ruddism. Our highly flawed PM can virtually do what he likes without having any fear of the opposition or of losing power at the next election or even the one after. This makes him a virtual dictator…which is extremely dangerous with the ‘Big Australia’ massive expansionist policies that he has imposed upon us!

The new Libs leader will have to do some pretty amazing stuff and keep a very high level of unity behind him if he is to change this situation.

Don't ya think Turnbull should have been a labour man to start with, i recon its only the depth of his pockets that why he ended up as a liberal.
Hocky or Abbot if ya put em together it could be the Abbot and Hocky show.

It is quite clear, to me at least Abbot is from the dead hand of the Right, an infestation that is doing great harm to his party/movement.
Hockey not long ago would have been happy to follow Turnbull for a while.
Then make his move.
This now is for conservatives an event as bad as the ALP/DLP split, it may last as long.
Great harm long lasting harm has been done.
Monday is no push over Turnbull has cornered himself, in my view he looks more statesman like now than ever before, but his party does not have the glue to reunite behind him.
So who?
I think Abbot is not the man, he if he wins will not be able to unite the party, so he will not win.
Hockey, to unite the party would need to back down from everything he has ever stood for, so for now he will not win.
A new yet unknown should/will take over the reins on Monday.
Or Turnbull will lead for a last chance election campaign.
I remain firmly convinced a leader exists, warts and all, for the present he is Turnbull, show me another.
Know before you do, voters are still behind an ETS.

it occurs to me the two party scam...[of dropping..non paryy men in control...[like rudd /turnbull/..is revealing the deliberated partypolicy...of picking party hack/...no bodies...that need orders to follow

ive never trusted the cuddely bear..[hocky puk]...and allways felt tony to be on the shifty side[in looks]..but then again look at the howhard slimball before his image change..upon reaching pm

ol joe..likes having orders...and while far from stupid..i think has this fear to lead...and i think he is smart enough to know this...somehow hockey stiche..appears more right....than anthony..yet he is the left?

i thought tony on qanda/lateline...has the seed of leadership..in him..and also huge party loyalty...more than many could realise...

see his challange...help get that..gretch email revealations..out of the 2 minutes politics gets in ya news...

barely a peep is heard of the whole gretch/turnbull..email..exchange...being fullsumly engaged upon...just pre this..''challange''...neatly headed off from media attention via..the ab-bott...robot...we so resepct..for his political nouse/timming

either way..they both..are better than any of you deserve..to lead the lib...you lot deserve...three faced/banker...who when he survives...the challange...

and shall continue doing ever greater blunders...keeping his mate[krudd]...in power..till he hands over to julia..when his brand goes south...its the whole peter/anna play...in play

Ludwig,
I'd settle for a party with both oars in the water, a clear policy, designed to benefit the people or two might help. Likewise, one on population growth as opposed to business' myopic self interest.
Not forgetting real control over the finance and corporate sectors inanity and excesses.

Just for curiosity sake, have you considered the Nats as wild card?
i.e.
Imagine if the Small 'l' Libs win Would the nats (not sure that there shouldn't be a g in the front of that.) break with a non conservative LP.

If the conservative did split logic suggests that the nats would side with them.

In which case we'd have the Labor party and a true conservative opposition and the 'progressives' on the side benches.
All sitting next to the greens! Poor Bob! The up side it that that excuse for a *senator* from FF would be toast.

Dear Examinator,

Those trying to tear down Malcolm Turnbull with
their opposition on the Emissions Trade issue
will doom the party to defeat and irrelevance at
the next election.

If the Liberal Party doesn't honor the agreement
made by Malcolm Turnbull then it means that
extremists, conspiracy theorists and climate
change sceptics in the Liberal Party have
succeeded in handing an election victory to
Kevin Rudd and the Labor Party.

This would indicate that the Liberals have
learned nothing from 2007.

It's almost as if John Howard is still pulling
the strings of his puppets.
I can't help but wonder who's advising these idiots?

Nick Minchin comes up with the most bizarre excuses.
The fact remains his party presented a list of
amendments to the PM. They chose these amendments.
The PM accepted the amendments and Malcolm Turnbull
and the majority of the Liberal Party (48 to 35)
accepted the Government proposal with the Liberal Party
approved amendments.
So what's all this fuss really all about?

By the way, - people should be aware that the initial
proposal put forward by the Labor Party before the Liberal
amendments were accepted - matches very closely to
the ETS proposals presented by the former (John Howard's)
Liberal government. Minchin and his
cohorts appear to be making all of this a personal
issue with no regard for either their own party or the
future of the country.

Who would I support, Shreck (Hockey),
or the Mad Monk (Abbot)?

Neither.
One sees himself as the people's friend,
A fearless "defender" of democracy,
the ultimate "protector" of our liberties.
While the other couldn't raffle a chook in a pub.

Both find it socially wise to conceal their
tendency towards rational and serious thought.

For the sake of the Party I hope that Malcolm Turnbull
doesn't give in to these rat-bags - and sticks to his
guns. He's the only hope the party has.

It's not a matter of Liberalism versus Conservatism.
It's a matter of intelligence versus ego and personal
ambition.

Keeping in mind it will be a cold day in Hell before I vote Liberals ever again....

- Is liberalism compatible with conservatism in the same party?
That's almost asking two questions actually- my answers:
1- In general- maybe- although I doubt it.
2- In the Liberal Party- HELL NO- the Libs have been even more authoritarian and vengeful and neocon-ish back when Menzies and Frazer were running the show. As bad as Howard was, at least he didn't support conscription in the wars HE signed us up to.

- who will win, and will the other-side see the light and toe the line?
Either Hockey or Turnbull. The other won't "See the light" but will still toe the line because deep down they really don't actually care.

-- what do you think of the choice?
They're both unpalattable, incompetent low-caliber politicians who would make astoundingly lousy and corrupt leaders- neither worthy of running the country- just like virtually everyone left in that party.

- who will you support?
If it were between the two, Hockey- the one that's not the Mad Monk who can't budget a top-end salary.

-- if he loses will you support the other?
HELL NO!

- and where do you think this leaves the country party (OOPS, national party)?
Exactly the same as the Libs.

- what do you think this will mean for the country?
Best case scenario- voters will see that the party is past it's prime and vote for someone else.
Most likely voters (absorbed in the "better of two evils" mindset) will keep voting Labor until they are so bad, constantly yearning for the DEAD Liberal Party to magically come back to life- but vote for them anyway. (pretty much as RobP said with a phrase so good and true I'm tempted to repeat it).

Okay I'm headed out on a limb here but I'm sticking my hand up for Turnbull as the next PM.

He will almost certainly get toppled as leader of the Libs next week but he seems to have positioned himself beautifully.

When the coalition get slaughtered at the next election he is going to be able to claim visionary status.

Rudd already has one wheel badly vibrating and by the end of a second term I think we are all going to be heartily sick of him and all the wheels will be off, this is from someone who had a lot of time for him when he was first elected.

The GW detractors in the coalition ranks seem to be hanging their opposition (and therefore their electoral hopes) on a dip in global temperatures (which has recovered its onward march upward according to the latest figures) and some less than impressive (but possibly understandable) email exchanges from some pommy climate scientists.

The only question is whether Turnbull is prepared to wait on the back benches until then. A double dissolution election would speed things up dramatically and he has been instrumental in taking things to the brink on that score.

When Australia limps in with a bastardised emissions scheme the rest of the world will justifiably start taking pot-shots serving to strengthen Turnbull's hand.

Interesting times.

“Okay I'm headed out on a limb here but I'm sticking my hand up for Turnbull as the next PM.”

Interesting, csteele.

I’ve never had much time for him, but he has been sounding better of late, in line with my concerns about environmental matters and sustainability. He did well on the 7.30 Report this evening.

I’d certainly prefer him to Abbot or Hockey.

“When the coalition get slaughtered at the next election he is going to be able to claim visionary status.”

Very possibly. So he may well become a recycled leader, as indeed Howard was.

“Rudd already has one wheel badly vibrating and by the end of a second term I think we are all going to be heartily sick of him and all the wheels will be off…”

Absolutely. As far as I’m concerned, he’s already lost all four wheels!

Interesting times indeed.

Tony Abbott is my local member.I'm trying to determine whether or not he is playing politics or is genuine in trying to defeat this repressive ETS tax.Remember John Howard saying he'd never introduce a GST ,yet when in power did the exact opposite?

This is an opportune time for a new political party in this country,that is not aligned to the Global Corporates.

Both of the major parties have betrayed the electorate.

What most Rudd critics fail to see is that he is simply "Howard-lite" in his policies and approach.

Except for the apology, broadband and taking away some (but not all) of the pain of Workchoices, there's not much he has done that the Liberals wouldn't have in the same circumstances.

Rudd's responses to the GFC - guaranteeing Bank deposits and the stimulus package - were backed and endorsed by Turnbull & Co when they happened but they only backed away when they found some token differences in the detail.

Likewise, the refugee fiasco would likely still have happened because of the changed situation in Sri Lanka plus the fact that the Temporary Protection Visa process was going to be dismantled anyway.

When challenged for an alternative their "we're not the Government" chant is an admission of a total policy vaccuum.

Their recent approach has been along the lines of the "interest rates will always be lower.." mantra. Oppose everything but offer nothing different.

It's time for them to put up some true policies - that's what Beazley was criticised for.

Turnbull's weakness has always been his poor judgement and that's helped Rudd as well.

Whoever takes the Libs to the next election will likely lose and be replaced anyway so the next few days won't make any difference unless they get serious about policies.

That's the problem with the 2-party system. We only get to choose between the left and right (actually centre and right) wings of what is essentially the same party.

After the initial thrill of John Howard's spectacular political demise, I thought it would be quite some time before things hotted up in the Liberal camp.

I've actually taken a bit of a shine to Malcolm Turnbull - he's so unpolylike. His penchant for periodic grandstanding before the press is rather endearing as well - good all-round entertainment. One can't help barracking for him now that all those dissenting bullies are giving him a hard time.

Personally, I think Hockey wants to keep his powder dry - he knows its too early.

I'll bet Peter Costello is sniggering into his cocoa.

I am having some fun with this, not the fact the Liberals are self destructing, they have been from day one of work choices, their D day.
No the amusement comes at the birth of their greens.
A thorn in my side and my party's greens are mostly from the I will never vote for that mob again camp.
Those who never will understand only the center will ever rule Australia.
And who fail to understand no party can please all its members , and still win those that it must, to be elected.
Turnbull right now is the only leader they have.
A win for Abbott would be a win for the distroyers,a dangerous minority the very right in their ranks.
An infestation that drives them to self destruct, and stops them EVER winning the center.
Nationals, wander in a world of their own, ignoring those who gave birth to their party, farmers and country folk, they fight for big business and miners.
Fight to stay alive by killing their own grass roots, in NSW long ago country Labor has replaced them as preferred bush representatives.
Each vote they win costs 3 welded on ones.
Hockey can win, if he lets himself be fashioned into something he never has been, if he becomes a puppet, he should wait, in time this party will need a leader.
Not until after much blood letting.
Turnbull if removed may leave the Parliament, another Lazarus is unlikely to rise from these ashes for more than a decade.

under turncoat/bull/rudd..we have the boys club..in place to force the lib party to eat itself...no doudt this would be in an email exchange...much like the gretch one..somewhere in the 2 party system

the gretch/turnbull revelations were well underway when the abbot made his media destraction from it...let me explain the thinking behind all of this...in my opinion

we have the potential...for the securities traders..to tax the people of the world/direct...for them to bid its price up...to as much as the bull market can bear

the former banker...via claiming party concensus...is able to eliminate the party line...party concensus...with his constant deciets[look at the gretch/turnbull..emails being left alone..because of the latest bull turn]

so whats the turncoats plan..a long sought global tax..on carbon...that does nothing but cash up the next bubble[the carbon tax bubble...its not about making less carbon...

but getting more cash...to create/finance.. the next industrial/revolution...wearing a green skin..while the other polutions..get on with business as usual...there is no debate that industry directly caused this/and financeers proffited hansomly from this...even to the extent of the bailout...when its own greed/creed sent itself broke

now with the new cash cow...its a done deal/by the way...industry can rebuild industry..in china and the third world...ensuring bankers/securities traiters...their next round of bonus...and the money changers...fully despoil gods temperal temple...with the neo carbon in-dust.trial age

its clear that...turncoat...thinks he can finish this on monday..thus by the meeting on tuesday...the carbon/issue has allready sealed the new age...with the money traiders/binding the sheeple...into a clever..[too clever by far]..new tax....

built up by deception...for greed...by the smartest/arrrssess..industrialised/capitalised/elites..lording..it over the parties...and the party-members swallowing the two party/globalist warming..lie

yes the climate changes...but man made change...is being blamed to make warming...lets be clear...how clever..the change...away from warming..really is...its not warming...its changing...just like it allways has...and allways will

Rache, I basically agree, except for the bit about asylum seekers.

My major concern is that the Libs do indeed imitate Rudd…or that Rudd is a me-tooist Liberal! They are just two peas in a pod and Australia just doesn’t have a meaningful opposition force.

This is extremely bad, given the absolutely rank policies that Rudd has come up with, especially the massive immigration rate and his horrible Big Australia rhetoric, as I keep saying across various threads.

In this regard, he has continued with Howard’s policy or record expansionism, but worsened it by imposing an unimaginable new record rate of expansionism upon us, and without giving us a clue before the election that he was going to do this.

I’ve been urging Turnbull to counter this by developing a policy of sustainability, which would include the stabilisation of our population. The Libs MUST do this if they want to present a genuine alternative style of governance, of the sort that the Australian people can really get behind.

After listening to Turnbull on the 7.30 Report last night, I think that he might have actually started to move in this direction. He is sounding quite green….for an old redneck!!

If Abbott or Hockey were to become leader, this momentum would presumably stop dead in its tracks. The Libs would remain Rudd imitators and remain in opposition for aeons.

Perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part regarding Turnbull’s environmental expressions. Perhaps, in fact almost definitely, the Libs will have to totally stuff around for a while longer and lose the next election by a huge landslide. Then maybe they might get the message that the ONLY way forward is to become greener than the Greens and develop policies centred on genuine sustainability.
….
Poirot, welcome to OLO.

to/the Environmental/two/party/.Movement's:..
Your Movement..Has Been Hijacked

http://www.corbettreport.com/articles/20091125_enviro_message.htm


http://www.youtube.com/v/uEggt0ldQUI

Transcript:..You/who have watched..with growing concern..the ways in which/the world around us..has been ravaged..in the pursuit of..the almighty dollar.

You..who are concerned.with the state of.the planet..that we are leaving..for our children..and our grandchildren..and those generations yet unborn.

This..is not/a message of/divisiveness,..but cooperation.

This..is a message/of hope and empowerment.. but it..requires us..to look at a hard..and uncomfortable truth:..Your movement..has been usurped..by the very same...financial interests..you thought/you were fighting against.

You have suspected..as much for years.

You watched..at first with hope..and excitement..as your movement,..your cause,.your message/began to spread,..as it was taken up by the media..and given attention,..as conferences were organized and as the ideas..you had struggled/so long and hard..to be heard..were talked about..nationally...Then internationally.

You watched with growing unease..as the message was simplified...First..it became a slogan...Then..it became a brand...Soon it was nothing more..than a label..and it became attached to products/bands/parties.

The ideas..you had once fought for..were now being sold/back..to you. For profit/..via carbon tax.

You watched..with growing unease..as the message became parroted,..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi1LU45Nip0
.. not argued, worn like a fashion
http://www.ecorazzi.com/2009/11/17/green-fashion-8-celebrities-with-eco-friendly-collections/
..rather than something..that came..from/the conviction..of understanding.

You disagreed..when the slogans–and..then the science–were dumbed down...When carbon dioxide..became the focus..and CO2 was taken up as a political-cause..Soon..it was the only cause.

You knew that..Al Gore was not a scientist,..that his evidence/was factually incorrect,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101102134.html

knew..that the movement..was being taken-over..by a cause..that was not/your own,..one that relied..on beliefs..you did not share..to propose a solution..you did not want

It began..to reach a/breaking-point..when you saw..that the solutions being proposed..were not solutions..at all,..when they began to propose..new taxes..and new markets..that would only serve..to line their own/pockets.

You knew something..was wrong..when you saw them argue..for a cap-and-trade scheme proposed by Ken Lay,
http://cei.org/gencon/019,02898.cfm

..when you saw Goldman/Sachs..position itself..to ride the carbon trading bubble,
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/28816321/inside_the_great_american_bubble_machine
..when the whole thrust..of the movement..became ways..to make money or spend money..or raise money/from this panic.

Your movement..had been hijacked.

The realization..came the first time..you read The Club of Rome’s 1991 book,..The First Global Revolution,
http://www.archive.org/stream/TheFirstGlobalRevolution#page/n85/mode/2up

..which says:

QUOTE..“In searching..for a common/enemy..against whom..we can unite,..we came up..with the idea..that pollution,..the threat of global warming,..water-shortages,..famine..and the like,..would fit the bill.

In their totality..and their/interactions..these phenomena..do constitute..a common threat..which must be confronted/by everyone together...
But..in designating..these dangers..as the enemy,..we fall into/the trap,..,..namely..mistaking symptoms..for causes.

All/these dangers..are caused by..human-intervention..in natural processes,..and it is only..through changed attitudes..and/behaviour that..they can be overcome...The real enemy then..is humanity itself.”

And/when you looked..at the Club of Rome’s-elite member..roster.
http://www.clubofrome.org/eng/people/

..when you learnt..about eugenics
http://www.endgamethemovie.com/biblio01.html
..and the/Rockefeller
http://www.oldthinkernews.com/Articles/oldthinker%20news/eugenics.htm
..ties..to the Kaiser-Willhelm/Institute
and the..practice of crypto-eugenics
http://www.eugenics-watch.com/roots/chap10.html

and..the rise of..overpopulation/fearmongering
http://www.corbettreport.com/index.php?ii=41&i=Documentation

and the call..by elitist
http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-population-reduction-agenda-for-dummies.html
after..elitist
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/45876,news-comment,news-politics,neo-malthusians-are-self-serving-pessismists,2
after..elitist
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6350303.ece
..to cull..the world population.

Still,..you wanted to/believe..that there/was some basis..of truth, something real..and valuable..in the single-minded/obsession..of this hijacked environmental-movement..with manmade-global/warming.

Now,..in November 2009,..the last traces/of doubt..have been/removed.

Last week,..an insider leaked/internal..documents and emails
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_emails%2C_data%2C_models%2C_1996-2009
..from the Climate/Research Unit..of East/Anglia-University and exposed..the lies,..manipulation/and..fraud..behind the studies..that supposedly..show 0.6 degrees/Celsius..of warming..over the last..130 years.

And the hockey-stick/graph..that/supposedly..shows unprecedented warming..in our times...And the alarmist/warning..of impending/climate-disaster.

We/now know..that these scientists..wrote programming/notes..in the source code..of their own/climate-models
http://camirror.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/a-very-disturbing-harry_read_me-txt-file/
.. admitting..that results..were being manually adjusted.

We now know..that values..were being adjusted
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/22/cru-emails-may-be-open-to-interpretation-but-commented-code-by-the-programmer-tells-the-real-story/#comments
#..to conform..to scientists’ wishes,..not reality.

We..now/know..that the peer review process..itself was being/perverted
to exclude those/scientists..whose work criticized..their findings.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/21/AR2009112102186.html?hpid=moreheadlines

We..now know...that these/scientists..privately expressed..doubts
http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=1048&filename=1255352257.txt
..about..the science..that they publicly claimed..to be settled.

We now know,..in short,..that they were lying.

It is unknown..as yet/what..the fallout will be..from all of this,..but it is evident..that the fallout..will be substantial.

With this crisis,..however,..comes an opportunity...An opportunity to recapture the movement..that the financiers/have stolen..from the people.

Together,..we can demand..a full and independent investigation..into all of the researchers..whose work was implicated..in the CRU-affair.

We/can demand..a full re-evaluation..of all those studies/whose conclusions..have been thrown into question.by these revelations,..and all of the public/policy..that has been based..on those studies.

We/can establish..new standards of transparency..for scientists whose work..is taxpayer/funded ..and/or whose work..effects public policy,...so that everyone/has full and equal access..to the data used to calculate results..and all of the source code..used/in all..of the programs..used to model..that data.

Further to my last post;

Perhaps, perhaps perhaps!! ( :>|

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMHAOlgjfJ8

Breaking news? in depth assessment. ;-O

http://newmatilda.com/2009/11/26/pick-winner-lot malcolm

Well worth the read and giggle

Thank you for the link, Examinator.
I haven't had a laugh like that in a long time.

Strange days, indeed.

Examinator, if that article wasn’t so close to the truth it’d be hilarious!!

‘Chances of Abbott becoming leader: 80–1; or 20–1 if he quietly kills and dismembers Joe Hockey. Chances of him killing and dismembering Joe Hockey: 10–1.’

Ooow….beware of the Mad Monk!!

I think many are missing the point of what is going on.

Many over emphasize the integrity and under estimate Rob, Minchin's capacity for skulduggery. They see themselves as the puppet masters (the real power) in the parliamentary party.

My personal experience with Minchin, is that he is the mirror image of Richardson was i.e. 'the end, personal power,justifies the means type of guy'. Rob is probably the same.

The Mad Monk is exactly that, a Catholic, ultra conservative, refer his stance on RU486. Like Howard on ICE (the drug, more doctrinaire that smart, with delusions. Specifically, that his religious dominated views are what this country needs.

The conservatives want a more controllable, compliant leader, Turnbull isn't that. Turnbull is (correctly) moving the party to the centre and further away the conservatives calling the shots, behind the scenes.

The conservatives rallying point is the ETS, however, it is really a stalking horse (strategy) to FLAT REJECT AWG (conservatives stand point).

Consequently, has set up the battle over Turnbull's 'arrogance' (unwillingness to be driven by the puppet masters), knowing that they couldn't win on sheer principal. Their best candidate is the Mad Monk.

MM also knows he wouldn't win in a head on head or survive against Hockey, so he's trying to force Hockey into the seat now, and fail.

This is evidenced by the MM not being prepared to challenge Turnbull if Hockey stands. Otherwise, this makes no sense.
He knows whom ever is the leader now won't be a PM.

So after the next election loss, he will be the most logical and incontestable candidate. Thus succeeding to reform the party to conservatism.

Examinator,
I agree that whoever takes on the leadership now would not be expected to be the one to take them to their next "winnable" election.

I can't understand why Hockey would realistically consider installment now for that reason - and also, wouldn't he lose all credibility if he acquiesced to the puppet masters and reneged on the ETS deal?

I think he'd be crazy to have his head swayed into taking on the leadership at this stage.

we pass..the tax..IMMEDIATLY...but with a sunset-clause...for a full reviuw...in 2012...with the true/numbers

this..gets us out of..the immediate meltdown...that will force our best leaders..into treason...in copenhagen

...BUT THE SUNSET CLAUSE...must be set in stone
'business'..gets/what they want....immediatly...to test their way...BUT we/HAVE A FULL YEAR,..TO REVIEUW...this gloobal warming deception...put it all on trial...in 2 year's...it is bound to fail...because its based..on lies...

its based on fraud...bad/modeling and altered facts...and media silence...and govt complicity..into treason

see/the collapse of capitalism...its tortally/totally/broke

the banker's... been calling the tune...you should allready know...
were under the terms of bankruptcy..thus govt has become subverted...the system is broke

the new tax is only to try and push a broken system..
into its next bubble...regradless of its cost...

they are in total/global control..there is a better way...we dont/need the buirdon...they need this bailout[the..carbon/tax]

but its bound to fail...un-employed dont spend much..so here is the new deal

http://www.prisonplanet.com/momentum-grows-for-copenhagen-climate-deal.html

http://www.infowars.com/hot-climategate-debate-scientists-clash-live-on-rt/

http://www.prisonplanet.com/climategate-master-criminal-phil-jones-collected-22-6-million-in-grants.html

http://www.infowars.com/gore-says-supercomputing-can-be-killer-app-in-climate-change/

Climate change:..this is the worst scientific/scandal of our generation
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/6679082/Climate-change-this-is-the-worst-scientific-scandal-of-our-generation.html

Scientists..at the University of East Anglia..(UEA)..have admitted..throwing away..much of the raw temperature data..on which their predictions of global warming..are based.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/climategate-spells-end-to-the-false-science-of-climate-change.html

Climategate:..The Silence is Deafening..from the Corporate Media
http://www.prisonplanet.com/climategate-the-silence-is-deafening-from-the-corporate-media.html

By now..most of us..in the alternative media.are aware of the some 61 megabytes..of global warming research data of emails,..documents,..and computer code..released by whistleblowers

that have exposed/climate scientists,..at the University of East Anglia in Great Britain,..as the frauds..they’ve proven themselves to be.

“Climategate”..surpasses..“Global Warming”.on Google
http://www.prisonplanet.com/%e2%80%9cclimategate%e2%80%9d-surpasses-%e2%80%9cglobal-warming%e2%80%9d-on-google.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/climategate-for-dummies.html

Lord Monckton:..Shut Down The UN,..Arrest Al Gore
http://www.prisonplanet.com/lord-monckton-shut-down-the-un-arrest-the-warmist-criminals.html

Appearing..on The Alex Jones-Show..yesterday,..Lord Christopher Monckton..went further than ever before..in his vehement opposition to..the elitists..running the climate change..scam,

http://www.prisonplanet.com/more-on-the-niwa-new-zealand-data-adjustment-story.html

UN scientists..turn on each other:..UN Scientist..Declares Climategate colleagues Mann,Jones and Rahmstorf..’should be barred from the IPCC process’..They are..‘not credible/..any more’

http://climatedepot.com/a/4100/UN-scientists-turn-on-each-other-UN-Scientist-Declares-Climategate-colleagues-Mann-Jones-and-Rahmstorf-should-be-barred-from-the-IPCC-process--They-are-not-credible-any-more

A UN scientist..is declaring..that his three fellow UN climate/panel colleagues..“should be barred..from the IPCC process.”
http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-great-climate-change-science-scandal.html

lots of key-word links
http://www.prisonplanet.com/un-scientists-turn-on-each-other-un-scientist-declares-climategate-colleagues-mann-jones-and-rahmstorf-should-be-barred-from-the-ipcc-process-they-are-not-credible-any-more.htm

one under god, sorry bloke, know gee I do know, it would be better to flick past your posts.
Well like most I do mostly, but you are kidding are you not?
Conspiracy in Copenhagen?
But I just must challenge you on this, are you in fact a Liberal front bencher?
Or do you right speech's for them?
You are not Nick Minchin are you?
I am welded on Labor, and understand this mess is great for my mob, three terms for sure now.
But it is dreadful, horrible, for AUSTRALIA.
No one can take this opposition as an alternative government, poor Hockey, nice bloke, but like an apple picked far before being ready to ripen is being killed off tomorrow, by mugs.

What planet do you live on . Definitely not the one I live on. A double minded Man is unstable in all his ways. Kevin Rudd is double minded, so is Malcolm Turnbull and Joe Hockey aspears to be the same.
They believe in God and also in evolution. Try to have a foot on both sides of the fence and you get a sore crutch, but then again I suppose it takes your mind of reality. As we elect carasmatic leaders we soon lose touch with reality. I see someone is advocating we should be pleased to part with our money for the climate change scam because it might be right. In my book that is thieft not smart for a fool and his money are soon parted. Dream on boys

You just don’t get it you need democracy first, before you start raving on about the policy makers, who are going to do what exactly? Feather their nests?
I am still waiting on the challenge sent to find the Australian constitution link?
Then when you do, or should I say if you do, you might consider adding bill of rights so orstralians can become a one of the few true democracies in the world i.e. similar to the USA.
Without a bill of rights how are you going to get political reform?
You don’t have the means to mount a challenge to the existing government.
You ossies are so ignorant when it comes to political reform. I dare say that’s something that black Africa Americans understand above all else, btw the majority of which vote republican.