CJ I doubt that it's worth us debating who's life experience has skewed their thinking on this issue the most. We both carry some baggage from past experience but making that the issue does not improve the discussion.

The men's groups have been working for years to have the focuse shifted off gender and onto stopping all violence. Mostly the efforts get lost in arguments with those desperate to cling to genderised campaigns. I don't know how effective they have been at it, I do think that there is a greater willingness to recognise that violence is a social issue, not just a male one but what role men's groups (and those who agree with them on this) have played it's hard to tell.

I doubt that the focus has always been just right but I am confident that there has not been any widespread support for campaigns based around a focus on just womens violence and excluding male violence.

It's a difficult area to make progress in with the supporters of genderised campaigns all to often willing to make the nasties of claims about those who speak out. I've been accused of supporting violence against women for wanting the taxpayer funded campaigns to be against all violence, it's been implied that I and others are abusers. I've been told I need to grow some balls and recieved various other attacks on my masculinity for relating my experiences.
Antiseptic is constantly subjected to the claims that he hates women although what he seems to hate is feminism, the two are not necessarily the same regardless of how some see it.

So for those wondering what the mens groups are doing about violence, they are trying to get all violence stopped, not just violence against their own gender.

R0bert

Anti,
Your crack about propergandists influencing me is a cheap obfuscatious attempt. If anything, it is comments like above that displays your baggage on the topic.

I will admit some bias, due to my experiences, both as an employer and
from what I have seen in my social welfare activities.

I might also tell you, I was surprised about the assessment that WRD isn't working, but I don't have research to challenge it. Therefore, for the purposes of this discussion, I went along with it.

It would be encouraging if some of the men on OLO who strongly voice support and campaigns to protect men from domestic violence would be equally concerned about women in similar situations.

I don't understand why some men are very negative in their comments about women experiencing domestic violence and anti-violence campaigns yet will cheefully and rigorously support similar programs for men.

It is possible to advocate for men and women at the same time.

It seems contradictory that some argue that governments favour programs directed at women while ignoring men's experiences, that you turn around and do exactly the same in reverse.

I am probably wasting my breath but I think it is not only hypocritical but self-defeating.

Onya Belly - we agree completely on this issue.

R0bert - I'd like to believe that men's groups have "been working for years to have the focus shifted off gender and onto stopping all violence". However, I don't see any evidence at all that this is the case. Can you provide some examples of where men's groups are actively pursuing campaigns to stop all violence?

Rather, it seems to me that they have a general strategy of pointing to bad behaviour by women, rather than acknowledging that the vast majority of seriously violent acts against women and men are perpetrated by men.

Antiwomen - I don't know why you think that I'm frightened of men. I'm a man myself, and most of my mates are men. We do blokey things like go fishing, watch cricket and get drunk together. However, none of my mates are misogynist losers like you, and none of them is violent towards their wives or partners. They wouldn't be accepted and respected if they did.

I think you need to come up with another gratuitous insult. We've done the "Pomeranian" and "afraid of men" bulldust - perhaps you need to scrape the bottom of your rhetorical barrel and come up with something new?

CJ, "I'm a man myself, and most of my mates are men. We do blokey things like go fishing, watch cricket and get drunk together. However, none of my mates are misogynist losers like you, and none of them is violent towards their wives or partners. They wouldn't be accepted and respected if they did."

What a load of cobblers that is. Do you really believe that claiming to be a 'blokey bloke' who does blokey things really impresses anyone? Then you revisit and re-write your earlier tough line that "those few men who are violent towards women are easily identified and effectively ostracised".

You really don't get it do you? A strong man is a caring man - one who would look for signals of distress/disturbance in his fellow man, is always prepared to take another aside, let him talk and encourage him to seek help. At the same time a strong caring man would look at for the good of the partner and family - making sure they are safe, provided for and have access to support.

All of that is very different to the mean, self-righteous, 'I'm all right Jack' who would gossip about and ostracise a friend who could be suffering from a depressive illness AND ignore the safety and well-being of the friend's partner and family.

Go and take the WRD oath for goodness sakes - you have been scolding others to do it - but I'd wager that doing so wouldn't change your outlook and behaviour one skerrick. Maybe that is one of the problems with WRD.

This thread could serve a very useful purpose if only it could bring home to people like you that it is up to us to take action. That means being conscious of and caring for your fellow man.

The sweet reasonableness of Foxy's posts brought tears to my eyes. Try reading them with an open heart. Well, maybe with more than one eye for a start

I genuinely believe that any work towards reducing violence is a good thing - including WRD.

RObert, feminists have had to grow very thick hides to cop an ongoing barrage of abuse. I'm a long time married heterosexual woman and mother of three who has studied while working in paid and unpaid employment. I'm regularly called a man hating hairy legged lesbian; thin skinned; humourless; sexless and accused of being on a gravy train or whatever because of my beliefs and efforts towards attaining social justice. So, whatever.

I'm concerned about any organization that tries thwarting efforts to reduce violence. Signs of Menz groups that do so without offering any positive efforts towards ending violence, but are focused on the uncritical subjugation of women and children as a necessary means to maintain a masculine role, include: reference to the made up 'Parental Alientation Syndrome'; the name Warren Farrell (Myth of Male Power) will be there somewhere; there will be figures presented based on application of the Conflict Tactics Scale etc. but not on the studies about errors of and assumptions underlying the CTS , and so on. All of that just heightens men's despair without offering any way forward.

I have no problem opposing women who are violent, especially where children are concerned. I would expect any organization concerned with men's well being to be linking to accommodation and welfare organizations to create a supportive network for men who are escaping abuse. There must be some lawyers who would work pro bono, as female lawyers have done. In womens shelters there are courses for self improvement, personal development and parenting; assistance with securing work and study and welfare assistance and information to help identify safety needs.

Those things were begun without funding and where service gaps existed then or now; referral networks were developed. Are your menz groups working on these sorts of initiatives, shaped in whatever ways men need them to be, so that men in distress have something positive happening to help rebuild their lives and self-esteem ?

Cont'd: