Bronwyn,

'I'm not in an eternal state of depression over it. And even if I was, the last thing I'd do is take Prozac. '

Good to hear. I figured if you would actually reconsider bringing children into the world and have no great desire for grandchildren you must be in a pretty bad state. What's wrong with Prozac anyway? It can be very effective in conjunction with therapy in helping very depressed people.

'Caring for the environment and caring for people are not mutually exclusive.'
They are when you promote not replacing the current generation.

'Feminism is a broad church.'
So is Catholicism. Many catholics use contraception. Doesn't mean one cant talk of the general tenets the Pope dishes out.

'With respect, it's only a woman who's been faced with this choice herself, who would truly understand it....'

I disagree. How many men do you hear bemoaning the fact they were 'absent' for too much time, working really long hours and comfort themselves with 'but I was doing it for the family'. This message is good for their conscience, bad for the kids who are made to feel like a burden. I was talking about men earlier, that you think only women sacrifice anything for the kids is interesting.

Pericles, et al.

Your point is well made.
My issue isn't with those that think it's with those who don't and don't care or are so preoccupied that they don't get involved....
Sure there are extremes at both ends but 8-9 yo roaming the streets at 2-3 am ?
A recent story where a pensioner was robbed at knife point by a gang of the same children aged from 7-11 at 9.30 at night?

Or a group of 13 yo beat a female pensioner to death in her own home at night with a fire extinguisher?

In all cases the parent didn't know there their children were. Some just said 'they were out with mates'.

No enforced curfews or bed times etc
No set behaviours or standards.
Or parents not knowing or not caring what they watched or did on the computer?
Family time at a minimum. Separate meals when the children were young.

This is what I meant by hands off and ad hoc parenting.

I seriously doubt that there would have been too much of that with most OLO commenters but sadly they tend to be the more committed ones.

If you doubt this talk to a school counsellor, social worker etc.

H,
Ludwig's term sprog(let)s amused me. How come he didn't get a serve? Am I just lucky hey?

sorry Ludwig :-\

pontificator,

Ludwig didn't cast judgemental aspersions on my parenting...

'What could go wrong with that approach? Sadly a whole lot.

Any questions why there are so many loose sproglets without any seeming sense of family or responsibility to others? '

Why do you have children; The idea of women having children in their late thirties and forties, has got to be on the edge of being obsean.
There is nothing surer than this causing gigantic problems in later life. For the kids as well as the parents. And you can guess which one is going to miss out.

Pericles,
You put it so well and I get your point. Certainly it is a more swaddled life for children today.
Houellebecq,
I get where you are coming from and concur with your aunts advice.
My main point was that children had more freedom (while Dad was down the pit or Mum bent over the copper) to play amongst themselves in the relative safety of their local community. This setting became an extension of the family fold, and even if the parent was not watching personally, others connected to the small community were at least able to offer advice or assistance if the child needed it.
By hands off I mean that we are encouraged to outsource the recreation of our children - to teach them things even in what used to be their spare time. This begins in infancy and continues through the school years.
I agree about us being "fretful little ninnies"- the only thing that modern parents have their hands on is the steering wheel as they ferry their children between engagements.
Very good point, Pericles, about the sort of attention we now have the luxury of bestowing on our children.
We are doing them a disservice.

Dr Fitzhugh Dodson, in his bestseller,
"How to Parent," stated that:

" The love of a parent for their child is
more important than all of the scientific
information that they may acquire about
how to raise that child. And the love
of a parent for their child is more
important than all the common sense they
may have about how to raise that child."

"It is not wisdom to be only wise;
And on the inward vision close the eyes.
But it is wisdom to believe the heart."
(Santayana).

"In the final analysis, believe your own heart."

"Science is important in raising your child.
Common sense is important also. But love is the
most important of all."

"Science, common sense, and love ... these three.
But the greatest of these is love."