Quite a brave move really, considering his leadership is at risk.

Well, Turnbull has laid his cards on the table declaring he could not lead a party who will do nothing on climate change. As Belly said we can only wait and see which way the deck falls.

It is interesting that Barbaby supported protests by farmers on the Liverpool Plains to ban coal mining in an extensive food bowl area and risk to the artesian waters. Had these protesters been Greenies he would have backed the coal mining industry.

These backbenchers are pretty fickle blokes when it comes to vote buying themselves so I would ignore similar claims about CC, and if I were Malcolm I would just get on with negotiation on the ETS.

This is how I see the whole problem.
1. The Labour Party has rigid discipline and no dissent.
2. The Liberal Party does allow some dissent & not much discipline.
3. The public is convinced man caused global warming is real.
4. The Labour Party leadership is blind to any doubts or argument.
5. An unknown number of Liberals have their doubts about the science.
6. The Nationals think the other parties have all gone mad.

Which sort of politicians are the best ?
Those that are prepared to argue the toss or those who will say
"How high sir ?"

If facts have changed or are in doubt do you change your mind ?
Or do you press on blindly ?

There is another problem that has not been mentioned anywhere.
What comes out of Copenhagen may or will require changes to any
legislation we have in place and we will have to go through all
this again.

Bazz I am aware we are on opposite sides of the fence.
But can you tell me this is not true?
1 Is it not clear most Australians will not vote conservative?
2 Did Turnbull have to act given the quality of those openly confronting him
3 Have you understood some targets already announced are for bigger cuts than we plan?
4 what if nay sayers are proven wrong? surely it will be too late to act?>
Bazz if you lead the conservatives would you want an election early next year?
in time, if those betraying their party are silenced polls will get better for Turnbull, not wining numbers but better.
If not? 3 more terms for Rudd never under estimate the damage Howard did in destroying talentin his own party, in inflicting work choices and staying too long.
Let time judge me, I will hold myself accountable if wrong will rechtub and hasbeen>?
will you

Yes Belly, we are I think on opposite sides some of the time.

But can you tell me this is not true?
1 Is it not clear most Australians will not vote conservative?
Bazz-> At the present time yes.

2 Did Turnbull have to act given the quality of those openly confronting him
Bazz-> He has had to draw a line in the sand.

3 Have you understood some targets already announced are for bigger cuts than we plan?
Bazz-> Whose targets ? Sounds like a good reason for delay till after Copenhagen.

4 what if nay sayers are proven wrong? surely it will be too late to act?>
Bazz-> Actually that is the point, it does not matter whether the
naysayers are right or wrong. The whole scene will change as energy
depletion sets in. Fossil fuels are depleting now so whatever
targets are set, the geology will exceed them.

if you lead the conservatives would you want an election early next year?
Bazz-> No I would not, because the public is unaware of the true situation.
They cannot think of anything other than global warming
and it is a minor problem compared to energy depletion.

in time, if those betraying their party are silenced polls will get better for Turnbull, not wining numbers but better.
If not? 3 more terms for Rudd never under estimate the damage Howard
did in destroying talent in his own party, in inflicting work choices
and staying too long.
Let time judge me, I will hold myself accountable if wrong will rechtub and hasbeen>?
will you

Bazz-> Accountable for what ? Almost all politicians are to blame
for the public's ignorance on oil depletion. They refuse to discuss
it or even limit exports of natural gas so that we can convert our
car fleet to gas. They spend big money on roads instead of rail.
I am not a conspiracy fanatic but if ever there was one it would be
the political ban on the words "Peak Oil".

Bazz while we are getting away from the thread let me tell you a few things.
I too know the impact of peak oil, and our politicians do too.
And even in the wreckage that is my NSW ALP actions have been started.
New laws to introduce newer fuels are in place.
In truth we will use nuclear power.
But I truly think no government none will be honest with us about power energy fuels ever.
Those owning power and fuel have control not public interest.
If we invested the very same amount on power we do now but in house solar power and cheaper appliances to run on it we would fix that problem forever.
I find reason to be concerned in conservatives kicking them selves to death, in refusing to confront this problem, to understand we may not have time to waste.
Bazz on this issue a very small minority within your ranks is behaving like hill Billy's
.
First victim in this mornings headlines is your side of the fence

Well Belly, the whole political scene is distorted by this argument
about the Carbon Pollution Reduction scheme and its running
mate the Emissions Trading Scheme.

The financial people are ready to trade emission indulgences as they
stand to make a fortune and make a mess like they did in Europe where
the Russian oligarchs made fortunes out of Europe.

I am more inclined to think the Nationals have it right.
Their policy seems to be to sit tight and see what comes out of
Copenhagen.

I think the labour party is rushing ahead more to put Turnbull in a
bind than to benefit the country.
I think for Rudd it is an ego trip to say that the world will be
hanging on Australia's decision and legislation.
When overseas as I was recently, it is hard to find any mention of
Australia in any area of interest.
Even news items about Copenhagen conference never mention Australia.
It is simply that we do not count in the wider field.
Frankly the other countries do not give a damn what Australia does.

Everyone who considers this whole global warming and energy problem
will do well to remember that we just do not come into the picture
except in marginal terms.