Well you've really blown it now mate, haven't you.

We tried to tell you, but you wouldn't listen. Now you are fighting with your back bench about this stupidity.

It is wise of them to fight, because a lot of them are going to pay for your tactics.

All this, when in the last couple of days, the whole pack of cards is tumbling down. The studdy at the base of the theory is now known to be shoddy, faulty work at best, or actual fraud at worst.

I can't believe you are stupid enough to believe this stuff, so I have to believe it's you running scared of your job, & rightly so.

We don't like pollies who put their interests before those of the electorate, & that is what we see now.

Ozies aren't too dumb. If you had run with the truth, they would have got the whiff of BS coming off the story, but your me to-ism is going to get you just what it deserves.

I know many people who would never vote for Ruddy, but if they don't like the horse, there is no chance for the cart, trailing along behind. Look for a rise in the informal vote.

You should have accepted the double dissolution if it came, & earned some respect for your fight. Going along with dreadful legislation, just to save your own hide, you'll never get the stink off.

Get out now, while you still havs a hint of pride left.

Yes I agree.

Our nation is just looking like creeping out of the whole we were in and, to introduce any legislation at this point that would place financial presure on our eccommony would be crazy.

I say, don't support the legislation and put the presure back on Krud, let him decide whether or not to call for an early 'DD' election. If he does, he may be shocked at the result.

On the other matter of Malcom, I think it is time he walks as he is running scared and this is not what our nation needs as a potential leader.

After all, any opp leader must have the mindset of being a potential leader, otherwise they would simply play the role of an umpire.

With the tragic events in Indonisia, now would be a good time to simply 'slip away' as it would hardly even be noticed.

A good point rehctub, my son would certainly not notice.

He is on HMAS Kinimbla, & she left this morning for Sumatra, to help out.

This is Kinimbla's second time. She spent 5 months up there after the tsunami.

Hasbeen, rechtub I offer you both a challenge.
Let us see here, now, who has a better understanding of Australian politics.
I dislike Turnbull, think he can NEVER win an election.
Yet have zero doubt, his action you complain of here will give the biggest boost to his polling from the day he won his seat
He understands the blind stupidity of the aged and just senile in his party.
He wants as a minimum a platform rebuild his party after the coming train wreck you call an election.
Blind opposition has ensured yes we are going to an election of both houses, unless Turnbull is allowed to lead his party.
Look back on this last week as the week conservatives had a choice, long term opposition or the reality they lost the last election.
And a chance theu may win one some day

Malcolm Turnbull is a lawyer and until he promises to return Australia to the rule of law, instead of the nine scams being run against the Australian people, by nine unconstitutional and illegal States, and makes Australia one State, he nor any of his Liberal Party colleagues deserves to win any election, or even a seat in Parliament.

These useless scamsters, I would call them hamsters, but that would be unkind to dumb animals, who will not compete with each other to deliver law and justice in mercy to the people of Australia as the Sovereign, Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second was required to promise to do, before She could assume the throne, are unworthy of anyone’s vote.

One State or Territory Government or the Commonwealth needs to get a dose of honesty and integrity, and give us back a court, not a Court, in which the principles clearly explained by CJ French in the High Court in Lane V Morrison, on the 26th August 2009, are followed with judges instead of a lawyer/Judge, as required if ch III Constitution.

Until such a course is followed we will continue to be treated unfairly, inequitably, and dishonestly, by all Courts in Australia. We have a chance that the Commissioner of the Australian Federal Police will take his job seriously, and carry out his duty under S 8 of the Australian Federal Police Act 1979. If he does so free from political interference, he can have every Australian Federal Police Officer as a substitute Governor General, and all Judges and Magistrates in Australia should be very frightened.

If Malcolm T reads these four cases, and is any sort of a lawyer at all, he will start competing to serve Australia, instead of using us for his own personal gain. The site is here: http://www.community-law.info/?page_id=512

Until he does so and starts to lead his party on the path of righteousness and honor, and conducts the leadership of the Liberals with integrity and honesty, he deserves everything he and his colleagues have had dished up to them. We should have choice

Peter the Believer
Would you be prepared to assist me to fill out and File a Child Recovery Order and Publication Order in relation to my son if so could you contact me on I only have until 15/10/2009 graysond49@yahoo.com
All the Best
From Dave

Who's Malcolm? Malcolm in the middle? crappy TV show? and who cares?

Hasbeen, rechtub I offer you both a challenge.

Sorry, have I missed something. I can't see where the challenge is belly. You seem to have asked and answered your own question.

Belly, It's not a matter of understanding politics, it's a matter of understanding principal.

I will not vote for a party who will vote for bad legislation, just to save itself a few seats in an election. I have not voted labor, since Richo bought the green vote, by getting labor to pass dreadful green laws.

Compared to this, what Malcolm wants to do is worse, & the only reason for the policy is to save his leadership. By delaying this legislation, not only do we muck up Ruddys UN ambitions, we delay any vote until after Copenhagen, even if it is a double disssolution.

After the spectacular failure that Copenhagen is going to be, even Ruddy will have to downgrade this rip off policy.

By rejection, rather than compliance, it will be much easier for the Libs to cancle the whole bl@@dy mess, when they get back in, & get back they will.

If you can't see that this whole AGW pack of cards is starting to fall apart, you are not looking deep enough.

It may be in just one term, but in not more than 2 the rotten mess will fall. Those who pushed it, or went along with it are going to be really on the nose. The stink will last many years.

By fighting this now, the libs may be reduced to a rump, for a little while. However, the landslide they would go back in with would make old Joh look like a short term leader.

Of course, if they don't fight now, they may not survive, long term, & who would care, if they don't have the integrity to fight for what's right. After all, we only need one party with no principals.

Gentlemen I rest my case rechtub unable to see my challenge had been laid on the table took a bex and a good lay down.
My other opponent put enough evidence on the table to prove a complete failure to understand the issue.
It will be only after the next two elections, not before, that conservatives have any chance of winning.
And without some compromise now it will be much longer.
for the first time Turnbull has shown leadership.
For the first time he is highlighting far too many in his party, think as hasbeen does.
Can Wilson Tucky and his supporters be said to think?
And is the national party truly opposed to this or is it just looking for the country bumpkin vote?
It is hurting its self, one day the nationals will merge or die.
It cares far more for miners than farmers.
This move by Turnbull will lift his profile will restore some trust in him and may get rid of fools and useless add ons in his party surely few want mad Bronwyn Bishops type to build a future on, Tucky? names flow ideas are out of fashion in the conservatives side of the house.

You shouldn't talk about politics as if it were a football match.
At the last election, the people spoke.
At the next election the people will again cast a vote.
With out a viable opposition, things can get out of hand.
At the same time you must allow the elected party to govern.
I say the Rudd govt will surge, with many more seats, which is not all that good. We need a viable opposition. Malcom's tenure has got to come to a close to move forward

Desmond please understand opinions, yours mine rechtubs and hasbeens are not facts.
Within a month we all will know who has got this subject right.
I could be very wrong, but am convinced Malcolm Turnbull had no other choice.
I once said he was the best man for the job, now think he will never win an election.
But who else from his team is ready to lead today?
Surely never Abbot?.
A virus left by a man who poisoned the roots of upcoming trees in his party John Howard still harms that party.
Turnbulls task is made more difficult by dead weight unfocused useless passengers in his party.
Put your self in command , get rid of Turnbull next month.
Have that election of both houses.
Who then rules to wreckage of conservative party's.
Does it matter that wild child Barnaby Joice may win say 2 extra senate seats but greens and Labor control that house.
In fact it will not happen, Turnbull knows it must not his party too.
Turnbulls act is an act of leadership, he has saved his party and his self by his actions.
Let time judge us in this thread we do not have long to wait.

Quite a brave move really, considering his leadership is at risk.

Well, Turnbull has laid his cards on the table declaring he could not lead a party who will do nothing on climate change. As Belly said we can only wait and see which way the deck falls.

It is interesting that Barbaby supported protests by farmers on the Liverpool Plains to ban coal mining in an extensive food bowl area and risk to the artesian waters. Had these protesters been Greenies he would have backed the coal mining industry.

These backbenchers are pretty fickle blokes when it comes to vote buying themselves so I would ignore similar claims about CC, and if I were Malcolm I would just get on with negotiation on the ETS.

This is how I see the whole problem.
1. The Labour Party has rigid discipline and no dissent.
2. The Liberal Party does allow some dissent & not much discipline.
3. The public is convinced man caused global warming is real.
4. The Labour Party leadership is blind to any doubts or argument.
5. An unknown number of Liberals have their doubts about the science.
6. The Nationals think the other parties have all gone mad.

Which sort of politicians are the best ?
Those that are prepared to argue the toss or those who will say
"How high sir ?"

If facts have changed or are in doubt do you change your mind ?
Or do you press on blindly ?

There is another problem that has not been mentioned anywhere.
What comes out of Copenhagen may or will require changes to any
legislation we have in place and we will have to go through all
this again.

Bazz I am aware we are on opposite sides of the fence.
But can you tell me this is not true?
1 Is it not clear most Australians will not vote conservative?
2 Did Turnbull have to act given the quality of those openly confronting him
3 Have you understood some targets already announced are for bigger cuts than we plan?
4 what if nay sayers are proven wrong? surely it will be too late to act?>
Bazz if you lead the conservatives would you want an election early next year?
in time, if those betraying their party are silenced polls will get better for Turnbull, not wining numbers but better.
If not? 3 more terms for Rudd never under estimate the damage Howard did in destroying talentin his own party, in inflicting work choices and staying too long.
Let time judge me, I will hold myself accountable if wrong will rechtub and hasbeen>?
will you

Yes Belly, we are I think on opposite sides some of the time.

But can you tell me this is not true?
1 Is it not clear most Australians will not vote conservative?
Bazz-> At the present time yes.

2 Did Turnbull have to act given the quality of those openly confronting him
Bazz-> He has had to draw a line in the sand.

3 Have you understood some targets already announced are for bigger cuts than we plan?
Bazz-> Whose targets ? Sounds like a good reason for delay till after Copenhagen.

4 what if nay sayers are proven wrong? surely it will be too late to act?>
Bazz-> Actually that is the point, it does not matter whether the
naysayers are right or wrong. The whole scene will change as energy
depletion sets in. Fossil fuels are depleting now so whatever
targets are set, the geology will exceed them.

if you lead the conservatives would you want an election early next year?
Bazz-> No I would not, because the public is unaware of the true situation.
They cannot think of anything other than global warming
and it is a minor problem compared to energy depletion.

in time, if those betraying their party are silenced polls will get better for Turnbull, not wining numbers but better.
If not? 3 more terms for Rudd never under estimate the damage Howard
did in destroying talent in his own party, in inflicting work choices
and staying too long.
Let time judge me, I will hold myself accountable if wrong will rechtub and hasbeen>?
will you

Bazz-> Accountable for what ? Almost all politicians are to blame
for the public's ignorance on oil depletion. They refuse to discuss
it or even limit exports of natural gas so that we can convert our
car fleet to gas. They spend big money on roads instead of rail.
I am not a conspiracy fanatic but if ever there was one it would be
the political ban on the words "Peak Oil".

Bazz while we are getting away from the thread let me tell you a few things.
I too know the impact of peak oil, and our politicians do too.
And even in the wreckage that is my NSW ALP actions have been started.
New laws to introduce newer fuels are in place.
In truth we will use nuclear power.
But I truly think no government none will be honest with us about power energy fuels ever.
Those owning power and fuel have control not public interest.
If we invested the very same amount on power we do now but in house solar power and cheaper appliances to run on it we would fix that problem forever.
I find reason to be concerned in conservatives kicking them selves to death, in refusing to confront this problem, to understand we may not have time to waste.
Bazz on this issue a very small minority within your ranks is behaving like hill Billy's
.
First victim in this mornings headlines is your side of the fence

Well Belly, the whole political scene is distorted by this argument
about the Carbon Pollution Reduction scheme and its running
mate the Emissions Trading Scheme.

The financial people are ready to trade emission indulgences as they
stand to make a fortune and make a mess like they did in Europe where
the Russian oligarchs made fortunes out of Europe.

I am more inclined to think the Nationals have it right.
Their policy seems to be to sit tight and see what comes out of
Copenhagen.

I think the labour party is rushing ahead more to put Turnbull in a
bind than to benefit the country.
I think for Rudd it is an ego trip to say that the world will be
hanging on Australia's decision and legislation.
When overseas as I was recently, it is hard to find any mention of
Australia in any area of interest.
Even news items about Copenhagen conference never mention Australia.
It is simply that we do not count in the wider field.
Frankly the other countries do not give a damn what Australia does.

Everyone who considers this whole global warming and energy problem
will do well to remember that we just do not come into the picture
except in marginal terms.

Tomorrow, a very big day in Australian politics.
The conservative party's meet in the joint party rooms to answer questions raised by this thread.
We may not know those answers until Parliament sits, but Sunday is the day we will look back to for answers.
Is it the day that brings on an election of both houses?
Or is it the day that proves Turnbull did the only thing he could do , put his leadership on the line.
Opinions are free, and our right, but I have seen some uninformed ones in this and other threads.
Ones that while coming from conservatives seem to want great harm to come to their own party.
Maybe in the next 30 days we will see a more united opposition, at least in Liberal ranks, I think Turnbull will win the day.
If not?
Rebuilding the conservative side will take a decade.

The ALP hase been attempting to get rid of/discredit Malcolm because they know the Libs are scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point in time. Personally, I believe that the electorate should vote for the party and its policies, not the leader and soap opera issues. If the Liberal party truly wanted to do the right thing for the Australian people, they would oppose an ETS as any tax that is applied to carbon will eventually be paid for by the Australian people. The buck stops with us, just like the GST.

I see no substantial difference between the two parties and there lies the problem. Both parties have been representing big business for the last 30 years and especially over the last 14 years by Howard and now Dud. If all the money from sales of our mineral assets were returned to the people of Australia, how rich we would be.

We need more parties in the lower house that have alternate views, as the present set up turns parliment into a debating contest concerned more about who is right, who is wrong, and who won the debate. I would like to see at least one party whose members had relevant degrees, especially science as science is the discipline that will propel our country into the 21 centure and beyond.

WILLIE sorry but you do not know much about politics.
Seen the polls? heard the anti Turnbull tripe from within his party.
Know do you it was Liberal policy to introduce such a scheme under Howard.
Can you truly tell me we should vote for party's not leaders?
Surely you do not think that is how it ever will be?
Turnbull is lost, he can never ever be PM.
But he has a chance of surviving for a little longer.
His actions are not those of a Dill.
He will put amendments in place that wedges Labor.
That gives him the slightest chance of turning his defeat into a lessor one.
Blame John stay too Long Howard.
He killed of talent, left a choice between Abbot, or Joe Hockey, no choice at all.
Get talent into the Conservatives, more to the point get the dead wood out.

Belly, you are absolutely right. I don't know anything about the soap opera they call politics because I am interested in what's good for the country, not what will get a party elected. However, in my opinion Malcolm Turnbull is shown his lack of expertise at least three times. Firstly, there was his idea on making rain, quite a feat for someone with no scientific training, spent heaps of money on it too, then on QANDA he didn't know the difference between solar and thermal solar, a lastly HE was the one to use the non existent em to call for Duds resignation. No politically expertise there either.

If Turnbull would represent what is right for the Australian people, and that is, "no new taxes", as we are already being taxed to death by three levels of government, I think people would see a real leader. I am a self funded retiree and this year I made $12K dollars and have to pay tax. Obviously, an ex merchant millionaire banker would have no conception of how ludicrous this is.

Howard got me layed of from my $75K job as an engineer with AirServices Australia when he destroyed the public Service and Dud locked up my mortgage investment account by gauranteeing dollars in banks for millionaires. Neither of these decisions did jack for the Australian people.

When a real leader comes along that understands how hard our outdated political system is one average Australians, he will no have any trouble getting elected.

Finally, I haven't voted FOR a political party in a long time, just voted for the other guy because I was sick to death of the present party and I'v been let down every time. As I said before, it's time for someone new to come on the scene, hopefully that will represent Australians and not just some party.

WILLIE no offense mate but it is a complex subject, it takes understanding to comment wisely on.
Now if I gave you advice on how to do your past job.
Well clearly I never would.
No I am not a politician, never wanted to be.
But here, in this thread some who ranted against Turnbull did so based on no understanding of the issues.
1
both party's, and most Australians, want some type of emissions trading in place.

2
In fighting within the coalition has weakened it, Turnbull ,no leader, he has convinced me of that, had to act, his party may avoid an early election because he did.
3
Few, very few do not understand our conservatives are very much lost, self destructive, and need direction not to perform well in this election but the next two.
Self interest WILLIE should not blind you to truth, your vote , the way you tell us of it, is a wasted one, no impact at all on outcomes.
I can think of only those who vote for that family first blank space as wasting votes worse.

Belly, your last post highlights the reason I will not vote for your lot, or Turnbull, now.

This attitude of yours, that no policy, or outcome is wrong, or bad, provided it gets, or keeps you elccted, disgusts me.

The fact that you, & your party, both accept this as business as usual shows how far removed you are, from any principal.

It is good to see that some, among the other lot, will not do anything, no matter what, to save a vote. They have earned respect, something your lot dont even seem interested in, if your attitude is an example.

Hang on a minute, they have lost your respect. You only respect those who will cheat, lie & connive, to get what they want. Now I see it all. Power is everything, nothing else matters.

Well, you can have your type of success. I could not live with my self, if I had to sacrifice my beliefs, to get what I wanted.

That post hasbeen say much about you, nothing about me.
In what is best described as blind rage.
Sprinkled with refusal to see truth, you defame not me but your self.
I never saw a thread you started insulting YOUR party.
Did you read mine NSW a basket case?
Power without glory?
My ongoing comments about Crean? his pup, Latham?
Are you saying I am blind to wrong on my side?
Can it be the very back bone of democracy has escaped you?
That MASSIVELY POLLING SUPPORTS MY VIEW not yours?
Are you aware of ANY OTHER contributor to this thread who so often takes the stick to his/her side other than me?
The goose from family first is possibly the only politician in this country less popular than Turnbull.
Review how he entered Parliament.
Hasbeen I without spite say you in my view have little or no idea about politics.
Conservatives must look in other directions than such as you to rebuild, they will you know.
Rebuild that is but much pain comes before the new foundations are laid.

With all the discussion on Malcolm, well my question is this.
What ever happend to the utegate conspiracy and our Malcolm and senator Abez allegedly rigging the enquiry, or is it business as usual, swept
under the carpet.

Not a bad question, sometimes we wait for truth and honesty longer in Parliament.