*but it's the push factors, not the pull factors, which predominantly determine the numbers arriving at any one time*

Err not so, for the evidence shows that the boat trade virtually
came to a stop, once the word got out that Howard meant business
and it was not worth their while. The refugee camps were full before,
then and now.

Now the word is getting out that Australia is a soft touch, so the
boats are increasing. Asylum seekers are not going to invest tens
of thousands of $ into a venture that is bound to fail, as was the
case under Howard. Now its worth their while again. A bit of a sob
story and they are in.

*The Indian Ocean will always act as a vast natural barrier to most asylum seekers.*

Bronwyn, quit the melodrama lol. The Indonesians come down and
fish in our waters, every single day.

*Bl..dy hell, Yabby. Where did I say that?*

On the 23rd April, at 11.42, when you posted the following:

*I learnt long ago that Yabby's heart is well and truly ruled by his head. And of course he thinks
the reverse of the likes of you and me.*

*contrary to what you say bribing of officials is rife*

I said nowhere that there was no bribing, I said that many refugees
did not have 2 c to rub together to afford bribes. The point however
is, if there is bribery going on within the Australian public
service, then it should be fixed immediately, so that women and
child refugees are considered too, not just young men with money
behind them.

*you aren't really interested in fairness.*

I certainly am and that is my point. I am simply not a bleeding
heart, who lets emotion distort my ability to think things through
clearly. You dear Bronnie, are not thinking things through clearly,
just following your feelings. You seemingly can't help yourself :)

Bronwyn

Power to you for clearly revealing the weakness of Yabby's argument. There he is along with Ludwig, fear-mongering over a virtual handful of boat refugees. He'd rather insult your intelligence than engage with you or with CJ Morgan's point, which I will repeat here:

"why ...(the) focus on a relative handful of boat people when Australia's population is being increased - legally and illegally - at a much higher rate by so many more immigrants who arrive by more conventional means?"

Yabby, all you have demonstrated to the OLO reader is that the issue of immigrant intake is way "over your head".

As Pelican has already stated we need to stop the baby bonus, establish an immigration policy at replacement level in conjunction with a comprehensive assessment of sustainable population levels both in cities and regional areas.

The big lies of "border protection,"
according to Malcolm Fraser:

"We are told boat people are queue jumpers.
That is not true - there is no queue.
There is no standard refugee process where
people wait in line to have their applications
considered. People fleeing terror have to flee
to other countries to find protection.

We are told "queue jumpers" take places away from
other refugees in other parts of the world. That is
not true. The Australian Government's quota of 12,000
has not always been filled. Even if it were filled,
would it be such a tragedy if the government allowed
some additional refugees into the country?

There are illegal people in Australia. They are not boat
people, they are people who have had a visa and overstay.
Most have come to Australia by air. They include 5000 from
Britain.

We have been told the boat people are not refugees.
That is not true. 97 percent of applicants from Iraq and
93 percent from Afghanistan who sought asylum without
valid visas in Australia were recognised as genuine
refugees. Under Australian law, they were eligible to stay
here.

We are told they are wealthy enough to pay people smugglers
and, therefore, could not be genuine refugees. That is not
true. Payments made to people smugglers range between $4000
and $5000. Many families spend their last cent and communities
pool resources to try to send relatives to safety.
People smuggling is a crime and it needs to be combated -
but it does not negate the legitimacy of asylum seekers'
claims.

We are told refugees should stay in the first country they
get to. That is not correct. There is no international
requirement for refugees to seek asylum in that country."

And finally:

"It is claimed people who destroy their identification can't
be genuine refugees. That is incorrect. Refugees generally
can't travel through conventional channels because they
can't get a passport from the persecuting government."

Bronwyn,
Obviously I think you're correct.
As per my erratum post, Yabby fails to acknowledge the other consequences of the apparent Liberal continuing policy.

As you pointed out it's the push forces more than the pull forces that are the predominant motivation.

His denial of this betrays his Chauvinistic (as in jingoistic) attitudes towards Australia's pull to these people. He totally ignores the reality of their pride/attachment to their own country.
Most are happy with traditional life styles but when the choice is between death/starvation then other places begrudgingly win.
See the fate of many of the Mong in US.

He ignores my point of the failure of deterrents by desperate people.
His preferred Liberal policy is a short term stop gap.With long term consequences.

Reality dictates that if traffickers didn't exist many would undertake/instigate the voyage themselves?
Given the Cubans' exit to Florida, the Africans brave the Mediterranean to Sicily. Then as he says the Indonesian make the journey to Aust waters every day and PNG natives regularly come from Papua it's only a matter of time.

He also ignores the international Covenant signed by Aust. It doesn't differentiate between arrival modes making one illegal and the other not.

Some of the implications mentioned have been used before against recalcitrant nations who don't honour international law. We're not big enough to tough it out internationally.

As previously stated I think he's more about stirring and totally (myopically) self interested rather that rationally unemotional.

If this weren't so one wonders what's the point of his continual put downs ( PD are generally power plays) perhaps “Quiet I know best." or “I want to be the king pin."

Contrary to some opinions I avoid that sort of language for that reason. 'Pontificator' is one such unnecessary power play.

I think we are using the thread to get back into ten thousand boat people.
For me it is about the idea that Julie has any idea about anything.
She has none never will have her party is lost so dreadfully lost I can find only one other team so self destructive.
The NSW ALP.
Those who in my view could best serve the Conservative movement by leaving start with Julie.
Never in the history of federal politics has the word opposition so fully described one side of Parliament.
NSW not a hard task any one who thinks Nathan Rees can read and write is better leaving now.

Govts on both sides of the fence haven’t handled the issue well. They need to dance to the tune of the Australian electorate and not some ditty produced by a moribund “human rights” theocracy.

Bronwyn & Foxy seem to think the “refugee” issue has the qualities of a fashion contest ( & probably give it as much thought!) . We, apparently, should feel inadequate if we have a lesser intake of “refugees” than some other places.

It is important to remember that not all refugee sanctuaries are the same .You need to distinguish between those places which allow, or rather cannot prevent squatters, but offer them little or no support, places which the squatters have no intention of calling home -- as in the case with your typical African/Asian refugee shelter, and OZ where shortly after arriving they will receive full benefits and citizenship –including the right to sponsor more of their kind.

Any current figure of intakes, however “miniscule” , will invariable grow to exponentially as each of the new citizens sponsor a brother, sister ,mother father or wivesssss (plural) .

Bronwyn cites the Sri-Lankan civil war as a push factor.
However, one does wonder why Tamils flee “persecution” in Sri Lanka need to hazard the journey to OZ when just a stones throws across the straits the Tamil ruled states in India (including , “Tamil Nadu “country of the Tamils") –who aided and abetted their cause during the civil war --are warmly and welcomely waiting--strange that?

As for CJ Morgan, (talk about the pot calling the kettle! ) while it is refreshing to hear CJ acknowledge the dodgy education-immigration schemes – I seem to remember the last time he was given a chance to expound on such evils he chose to shoot his wad at OZ racism -- and said nary a word about the rorting side things --strange that!