Well said Foxy.

Helps to be reminded of the rhetorical distortions that were the mark of the Howard Government and understand that the Liberal Opposition has yet to learn from the past.

Of course none of this excuses the equally delusory track the Rudd government appears to be on regarding climate, sustainability, pollution and population.

What we need is a genuine Opposition that is able to ensure that the current federal government does govern for the good of Australia rather than make hollow claims to do so.

I'm with you on this one Ludwig, for everyone knows that the
present govt is simply playing politics, to satisfy the whims
of the many gullible bleading hearts in Australia, as we have seen
on this thread.

The 1951 Convention is long out of date and is being misused
by people who seek economic migration, for things are tough
in the third world. In Europe they now have huge social
problems because of all of this.

Meantime yes, the population in Australia will continue to
increase, as in the East, building houses for ever more people,
is a major industry. So row on row sardine cans, one next
to the other, is the future for Eastern States suburbia.

AS the Govt wants to win the next election, they need jobs
and the building industry, employing a milllion or so, is
what keeps them going. New migrants all need houses.

Luckily I have my 1200 acres patch of good dirt, a long
way from all you lot :)

I'm with Lugwig.

What part of, "these people are not refugees." do some people not understand?

If you pay someone tens of thousands of US dollars to get you out of your own country, then more to smuggle you across numerous borders, then pay someone more tens of thousands of dollars to cross a sea to a country not of the same religion, where they consider the people of that country to not be human (they are not Muslim therefore not human), having crossed numerous countries of the same religion as yourself where you would easily fit in.

THEN, YOU ARE NOT A REFUGEE!

Simplest & cheapest solution. Send them back to their country of origin & let them apply to immigrate. The same as everybody who wishes to immigrate has to do.

Other than that, sink 'em on the high seas.

Ludwig

<< So in the bigger picture, in terms of the numbers of people involved, it would surely be eminently sensible to strive to completely stop this movement, which Howard had effectively done .. >>

The problem is, Ludwig, that 'stopping' this movement of people in effect means either turning back unsafe boats and risking drownings, warehousing asylum seekers in appalling limbo conditions in Indonesia or Malaysia, or returning them back home to danger and likely death in Sri Lanka or Afghanistan.

This is the reality of Howard's policy and the same madness - through the Government deployment of the ADF and AFP and Australia's financial support of the Indonesian Government and the International Organization for Migration - is only further gathering pace under Rudd. It's all shrouded in so much secrecy that no-one really knows how many deaths these policies are contributing to.

The argument that stopping boats will save lives is a complete furphy. The exact opposite is the case. Stopping boats causes death and misery. It's cruel and inhumane and it's why I'll never agree, dear Ludwig, to your simplistic bleatings for Australia to do so. :)

As everyone here, apart from Yabby, has pointed out to you, the numbers we're dealing with are small and quite within Australia's capacity to deal with, provided we simultaneously adopt the migration and tax policies you and Pelican have mentioned here.

And as for Julie Bishop ever having any real solutions, what a joke. She has no real grasp of policy and can only ever parrot ideas she's lifted from others. 'Onya Julie'? I don't think so.

Oh Foxey,
You are so right, they did not throw the children overboard !

They scuttled the boat under them !

Then if you look closely at the photos you will see that Australian sailors had to jump in to save them.

Lets get one thing straight they are not refugees or asylum seekers.
How did they get to Indonesia ?
The illegal immigration route is by air to Malaysia, boat to Indonesia
bus to southern Java and then boat to Australia.

They were no longer refugees once the entered the first safe country
after leaving their homeland.

If you arrive in Australia without a visa you are sent back.
Why don't they do the same with boat arrivals ?
The boats master should apply for pratique and if it is refused he
should depart the port of entry.

Ludwig, Ludwig, Ludwig,

It's time for Australia to face the facts we have Party governments in this country and it is their collectively agreed policies that are at issue no the personalities per se.

Personalising the subject to the person tends to absolve the party from their collective decisions. i.e. blame the individual excuse.
So long as we do that we encourage members to simply say "well I didn't agree to it" and that is the end of it. Then we wonder why changes of policy are so hard.

I hold all elected members for their party's policies. It is inconsistent on one hand claim allegiance to the party decisions but deny responsibility for the same as an individual.

As the spokesperson for Liberal policy she must also be responsible for policies in her time. She agreed to support Howard's regime therefore her current utterances are in that context of the party and its historical voting pattern (hers included).

In this way parties become like corporations and according to organisational practice it's continuance comes first and thereby avoid responsibility by sacrificing (scapegoating) the individual when it's the party policy at fault.
BTW under corporate law individuals can no longer claim corporate anonymity.
Both are responsible not just the personality.

Pursuant to your penultimate complaint I suspect you are under estimating "desperate people do desperate things" remember people were known to be hung for stealing a loaf of bread. In short deterrents have never worked with desperate people.

The environment these people come from are worse than when the Howard Liberal government reigned.

NB . Note the wording Howard didn't do it on his own any more than Hitler did.

True the risk of boating people here is unacceptable exploitism etc. But don't the criminal is the traffickers not the refugees. Punish the right culprits. Change the reason the refugees left but treating them is a bit like beating a wayward dog once it returns, then wondering why it won't come back or hates you.

Perhaps more objective solution based thought required.