Ludwig (continued)

It’s inhumane in that it denies asylum seekers the access they need to legal advice and community support. Again, whatever is provided, and the Rudd Government is at least making an effort that the Howard Government never did, has to be flown in and out at huge cost to the taxpayer. Providing support costs the government very little when detention occurs in places like Villawood in Sydney where assistance is given by volunteers who meet their own costs. Offshore detention is also inhumane in that asylum seekers are denied the right of appeal, which should be a basic right in any detention process. The Rudd Government has already deported over seventy asylum seekers that I know of from Christmas Island, two of whom I know have suffered torture on arrival in Sri Lanka and the rest, most of whom are Indonesians, as far as I know have not been monitored. None of these people had any avenue of appeal.

<< Come on Bronwyn, he accommodated them, by anyone's definition, as opposed to sending them back to the open water, Indonesia or home to hell in their countries of origin. >>

Howard’s ‘accommodating’ of asylum seekers, Ludwig, did indeed involve ‘sending them back to the open water, Indonesia or home to hell in their countries of origin.’ He did all three, without care or scrutiny. We know people drowned and we know people met their deaths when refouled back to danger, but to this day nobody knows how many lost their lives or how many still live in fear of death even now, because of the secrecy and the complete absence of any monitoring of returned asylum seekers by the Howard Government.

<< They were NOT locked up indefinitely! Most remained in detention for a relatively short time. Those that destroyed their documentation or for whom it was otherwise difficult to determine the veracity of their refugee claims spent longer in detention, with a small minority of cases taking a very long time. >>

With respect, dear Ludwig, they WERE locked up indefinitely, all of them.

(To be continued)

Ludwig (Continued)

Quite apart from the fact they’d committed no crime and shouldn’t have been locked up in the first place, there were never any specifications given as to how long they’d be there. The uncertainty and suffering they endured drove many of them to insanity and many battle mental heath issues to this day. Thousands spent at least two or three years locked up indefinitely and many spent five, six, or seven years locked up. I don’t think you have any real understanding of the impact this has on already traumatised people.

<< Howard did NOT inflict enormous hardship on anyone!! He would have done if he'd turned them around. >>

As I’ve said many times, he DID turn them around, and he certainly DID inflict enormous suffering on many thousands of innocent and vulnerable people. I’ve already detailed how he did this and am not going over it again. Quite apart from the suffering that occurred on our shores and in offshore detention in the name of deterrence, those who Howard actually deterred from coming in the first place and there’s no way of knowing how many that would be, would most probably have suffered, and no doubt continue to suffer, more in a refugee or holding camp than they would have if they’d been able to make the trip by boat.

I think we have about reached the stage we always do, Ludwig, where we will have to agree to disagree. I’m happy to defend my position but I don’t want to keep repeating myself and I certainly don’t want to agree to consensus on your terms. :) Assisting refugees who arrive on our shore might not be the easy option, but it is the right one. Deterring them from coming sounds innocuous enough, but in practice can only occur through inflicting cruelty and death, and besides which will never be sustainable while ever war atrocities occur within our region and more broadly.

Very possibly NOT to be continued. :)

Bronwyn still doesen't get it, that her bleeding heart solution
is the very cause of the problem. For the easier that you make
it, the more people will take the risk of a leaky boat,
threatening their own lives.

That's become quite clear in Europe, where economic migrants
from Nigeria, Ghana and other African countries, have been
flooding in, after risking their lives across the desert,
where many die.

Italy has finally had enough and are turning boats around,
sending them back to Lybia. People are taking the risk,
because others they know got through and the Western cushy
lifestyle is clearly enough of an attraction for people
to risk their lives.

So simple, just shut the trade down, then people won't
risk their lives, it won't be worth their while to do so.

Our bleeding hearts have already done enough damage.

Yabby & Ludwig,
I am afraid Bronwyn will not accept logic, she appears to operate on emotion only.
That her emotion gets her into illogical and cruel positions seems to
have bypassed her thoughts altogether.

She seems to consider them to be all asylum seekers even though they
have been through numerous countries and it seems that only a small
percentage were under threat anyway.

She still has not explained why, if as she states that the boats are
not seaworthy, the crews would take them out anyway.
It does not matter how badly you need the money, you are not going
to sea in an unseaworthy boat.
Remember these crewman are fishermen, they might even know the boat
and perhaps even own it. No, those that sink are almost entirely
scuttled and is probably part of the deal with the people smugglers.

Bronwyn, don't be so gullible.

Bronwyn, you have the patience of a saint. Thanks for summarising so well the reasons why Australia is legally and morally obliged to accept legitimate asylum seekers and to treat them humanely when they arrive. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm not inclined to reiterate the same arguments every time some mendacious misanthrope blows his dog whistle at OLO.

Mind you, it's quite fascinating to read the disingenuous responses that you elicit from the heartless bastard contingent, who quite laughably attempt to frame their responses to your cogent arguments in terms that disguise their utter disregard for the welfare of genuine refugees.

A word of warning: don't give Ludwig any clues about your physical location - he might just turn up 'coincidentally' around the corner and want to meet with you.

CJ

<< Bronwyn, you have the patience of a saint. >>

Well, I must say 'Saint Bronwyn' certainly sounds better than Forrest's 'Mother Superior'. :)

<< Thanks for summarising so well the reasons why Australia is legally and morally obliged to accept legitimate asylum seekers and to treat them humanely when they arrive. >>

High praise indeed from a past master - you do realise I hope that it was your dogged persistence on the Ten Thousand Boats thread that showed me the value of sticking these threads out to the very end. I’d been away at the time so read that thread in one sitting and it really drove home the importance of having at least one voice of reason stay the distance to speak up for fairness and justice. Like you though, I don’t know if I could come at it again any time soon. Perhaps Examinator or Fractelle will carry the baton next time. :)

<< A word of warning: don't give Ludwig any clues about your physical location - he might just turn up 'coincidentally' around the corner and want to meet with you. >>

LOL. Yes, Ludwig has kind of ‘stalked’ me over this, but I don’t have any real fear it will extend beyond the confines of OLO. Besides which, you can rest assured even though I’ve probably given enough clues over the years to locate my whereabouts in a general sense, the one piece of information that would do it precisely will never be divulged.

From my early days on OLO, Ludwig struck me as a person with a conscience. We’ve always disagreed over this issue but can at least thrash out our differences civilly.

No, I have no qualms at all about living in the same state as Ludwig. I'm eternally grateful though that a vast continent separates me from Yabby!

Yes, I know, Yabby, you wouldn’t stalk ME if I was the last female on earth, but I sleep better knowing you're a long way away just the same. :)