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The Forum > General Discussion > Our Godly origins

Our Godly origins

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Dear David f,

Welcome back.

We're leaving for Sydney, from Melbourne on Tuesday 1st Sept.
and we'll be gone for about a week.

It's my regular 'pilgrimage,' mainly to visit my father's
grave - in Rookwood Cemetry.

I've got family in Sydney - but none of them seem to care
that much about looking after Papa's grave (except me).
I don't know what's going to happen after I'm gone -
hopefully someone will take over. I clean things up while
I'm there. It's so peaceful - and not at all morbid -
as some people may think.

Anyway, Thanks for the book reference - I'll try to get hold
of a copy.

Take care.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 August 2009 6:26:01 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Thanks for your welcome back. My mother, father, both grandfathers and my mother’s mother are buried in a cemetery in Whitesboro, N. Y. My mother’s parents loved the Adirondack Mountains, and they wanted to be buried in that cemetery because it overlooks the foothills of the Adirondacks. It’s a beautiful site. My grandfather’s coffin was taken up to his grave on a toboggan, as there was a lot of snow. His sons thought it was appropriate for his last journey, as he loved a toboggan ride. I’d like to go back there in winter.

It’s a good act to look after your father’s grave.
Posted by david f, Friday, 28 August 2009 7:36:23 PM
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Dear David f,

Thank You.

Big, big hug.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 August 2009 8:15:08 PM
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"Let us make humankind, in our image, according to our likeness!"

Apologies for skipping in late.

As a trenchant secularist I have to confess I am currently thoroughly enjoying a re-examination of the Bible, particularly the Hebrew one, through older and hopefully wiser eyes.

Genesis is my playpen at the moment. My preference is to read in a sitting a particular book and see what resonates, then to seek the commentary of others. What struck me was how much as a parent, with a teenager who is beginning to deal with all the complex issues of life and sexuality, I felt for the character of God.

As a parent I see the gifts of love, a home and protection as a cocoon we strive to create for our children, our garden in 'Eden' but one we know whose currency will change, and possibly diminish when their 'eyes are opened' to new understandings. However I believe every parent that mourns a little for that innocence lost.

I see God's manner of dealing with his 'children' repeated today with parents reacting excessively to what is an inevitability with them showing their children the door, if not literally then distancing themselves in their relationships with their offspring. Many later deeply ruing their actions when near irrevocable alienation occurs.

I found myself reflecting on how many wished they could just start again and the Hebrew god seemed intent on doing just that in a brutal manner with the flood. Wiping the proverbial slate clean.

But one does get the sense of god maturing in his relationship with humanity throughout the bible one would love to ask knowing what he knows now how would he have done things differently?

There are poignant lessons on parenting throughout Genesis with possibly the largest collection of dysfunctional families in literature.

Naturally the question will be asked whether we created God in our image or vice versa and while my preference is obviously for the former I think to dismiss the teachings held within the bible and the insights gained in contemplating and discussing them would be indeed foolish.
Posted by csteele, Friday, 28 August 2009 10:43:06 PM
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Dear csteele,

The part of Genesis that made rejection of the God of the Bible obligatory for me is the binding of Isaac. That God demands showing devotion by atrocity – the willingness to murder one’s son. I cannot accept such a God. Apologists for that story point out that Abraham did not actually have to sacrifice his son, but later in the Bible Jepthah actually sacrifices his daughter. I do not think it right that a person should either sacrifice a child or be willing to sacrifice a child.

When I first heard of the sacrifice of Isaac I became a very frightened little boy and asked my father what he would do if he heard a voice from God commanding him to sacrifice me. My father said he would see a psychiatrist. I felt my father was reasonable, and the God of the Bible was an unreasonable entity unworthy of worship.

The story of Abraham and Isaac justifies 9/11. They showed devotion to their God by their willingness to commit atrocity.

In the New Testament God continues his evil by subjecting his own son to a horrible death.

It was an unreasonable God at the beginning ordering the primal pair not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge knowing full well that they are going to eat of the tree. He then has them driven out of the Garden because they have acted naturally. How could they know that it was wrong to disobey before they disobeyed if they lacked knowledge?

God sends a flood to punish mankind for its evil. However, a flood destroys all terrestrial life. What have sheep done wrong? Is God angry because they didn’t keep off the grass?

At first Buddhism seems more reasonable in not postulating any God. However, Buddhism sees detachment human emotion as an ideal. One can then abandon one’s family as Gautama did.

Such faith not only overrides reason. It overrides the bonds of human love. Such faith is evil in my view.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 29 August 2009 1:35:36 AM
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Dear davidf,

While I am apt to take from the bible much as I would from other literature like Shakespeare it is possibly impertinent of me to request the same from you as your heritage means it likely has had a far more visceral impact during your formative years than anything I could hope to comprehend.

I too have harboured a rather negative image of Abraham, from pimping his wife to the Pharaoh to his willingness to sacrifice not one but two sons. But the beauty about the writing in Genesis is that it is so heavy on import while being so frugal on detail. It invites us to fill in the gaps or rather flesh out the story.

Can I offer you a different coat to try on regarding Abraham? Think of where he was at. It was just ten generations ago that Noah was floating on an endless sea surrounded by the bloated bodies of all but a few of his fellow human beings. Noah’s behaviour post the flood, consisting of drunkenness and lewd conduct unbecoming, hint at classic PTS.

Despite the covenant from God with his promise never to wreak destruction through flood again on the human race Abraham was witness to the destruction of the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah through fire from heaven. He had done his best to negotiate the sparing of these two towns with God but failed. One might imagine his despair at their obliteration. God seemed to be on the rampage again and just what might it take to appease him?

The answer appears quite quickly, Abraham is asked to sacrifice his son, his gift from God. One gets the sense of a ‘Sophie’s choice’. One thing we know from the previous descriptions and actions of Abraham is that he quickly determines the choices set before him. There is no argument nor bargaining on this occasion. Might his actions with a different but not illegitimate reading have been heroic? Would one ever consider sacrificing a son to prevent a holocaust?

Cont..
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 29 August 2009 10:22:39 PM
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