Dear Grim,

You ask an interesting question - "When we gained
"self" awareness did we lose "awareness?"

I'm not sure - I suppose it depends on the individual
doesn't it, and how much 'self,' awareness or
'awareness,' they possess?

It reminds me of the joke:

Question: "What's he got that I haven't?"

Answer: "Awareness!"

Question: "What's that?"

CRIMM<<when that very first proto cell managed the clever trick of reproduction, was there then 2 lives on the planet, or I life, in 2 places? >>>..clearly two lives..one reality but two versions of it..you seeing me/..me seeing you...him..light/love/logic/life..seeing/sustaining...us to live

<<one thing has always bugged me.
Wagtails...Why don't they interact with Humans?>>funny you should say[one night in longreach...i was awoken by this constant chirping/wisteling/bird noise[overwelming]sounds so much so i went to check it out...

half a block away..[in one tree]...were literally a hundred[or more]100 plus willie wagtails in one tree...pretending like i wasnt there...it was a spiritual experience...like all laws of nature were in abeyance...i figured it was their version of cooroberie...and accepted the willy wagtail as my totum guide

when important occasions needed precice spiritual timming...there was my willie wagtail guide...who served even as messenger...letting my related;them to be knowing i was well..when ever one visited...they knew i was fine...for 8 years...as i went walkabout

in short i studdied its meaning...in time/..i learned that the willy is an accused liar..[never to me]./.but such is its trible recognition..that his visit portends deception/gossip...

so presume with the cat chasing...they are interacting with them delivering a mess-age

<<Is it possible that when we gained 'self' awareness,..we lost 'awareness'?>>.your meaning have we so disconected with nature...by modifying our natural being ...have we lost maybe awarness of the totality that lies outside...and gained mearly the emptyness within

that empty void is your living life giver ...dwelling in all livingsustaining all living their l;ives to live..[one life of course]...allways was..allways will be..

at-one-ment
..

Foxy thank you - I really enjoyed our exchange, because again I have learned more.

Grim

I found much in your last post that was very 'zen'.

Yes, we gained self awareness at the cost or reduction of awareness. I am sure that there are animals who perceive us as 'cloddish' - particularly the likes of a wagtail.

We may kid ourselves that by inventing the combustion engine, we have staked our claim to the peak of intelligent life on this planet. However, if the other creatures we share this eco-system could speak, would they not question the wisdom of producing a mechanism that consumes resources and only returns pollution? Are we not still cannibals by endangering our own existence with the destruction of our habitat?

Loved the question about the very first binary fission of the very first cell. Is it 2 lives or 1 life in two places? One can ask the same of cloning, was Dolly the sheep and her originator one life? For myself, I think 2 lives. This is an excellent conundrum. My belief is during that primary cell division, the very first differences occurred, so tiny as to be virtually undetectable but enough for evolution to begin.

:-)

Foxy is correct. In history, Christians usually gave the Jews the option of converting to avoid extermination. Albeit, in fifteenth century Spain, when the Jewish converts to Christianity, became socially mobile, they were killed. Alexander VI dubbed Isabella and Ferdinand with the title “Catholic Kings”, in recognition of the exiling and extermination of Jews.

Much more recently, we have the Franciscan Ante Paveliç and the Croatian Catholic Clergy. Paveliç was supported by Pious XII:

http://blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/pavelic.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_catholic_church.htm

Christain origins were bloody and not only for the Jews:

In 380, Theodosius’ edict calls, “ ‘insane’ those that do not believe in the Christian god and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.” - Supreme Council of Ethnikoi Hellenes [Online]

Soon after, we have Christian death camps at Skythopolis:

“Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop, ‘Saint’ Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.” - Ibid

In 580, “Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the other Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals are unwilling to tear them to pieces and they end up crucified. Their corpses are dragged through the streets by the christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the city dump.” - Ibid

Zen? That might be refreshing after reviewing Our Christian Origins:

"The whole approach to Buddhism is to development transcendental common sense, seeing things as they are, without magnyfying what is or dreaming about what we would like to be" - Chogyam Trungpa

Yes, there is definitely a Zen aspect there, Fractelle and Oliver.
Many proponents (like Arthur C Clarke) have been adamant that Buddhism is not a religion, so much as a philosophy.
Foxy, do I understand you're proposing a rather fascinating experiment?
Are Wagtails more inclined to interact with Sociopaths, or Saints?
Perhaps we could get some volunteers, from the ranks of OLO posters.
Oh, dear, did I write that out loud?