Prompted by Foxy's accurate statement; "no Christian CHURCH ever advocated exterminating ALL of the Jews" (emphases added),above, I posted the dark history of Christian atrocities (death camps) following Nicaea and accounts of Church involvement in supporting war criminals in WWII (sanctuary and rat-lines). And there was much of the same during the 1,700 years in between. Here, I wonder if anyone can ever put Humpty together, because Humpty has never been together in the first place. The parts might not be there!

I am aware of Marx's quip to the effect that "the only difference between the Catholic Church and the Church of England is how long they roast their victims". Yet, for the good Christian laity, surely there must be an ethical alternative, somewhere. Good people, who would never join the NAZIs or KKK, happily enjoin Church organizations with no better pedigrees. I guess a Sunday veneer covers the facts.

Alternatively, to reform Christianity, is it enough to say, "physcian heal thy self"?

Dear Oly,

I wasn't going to respond any further to this thread.
But, I've once again been drawn back in.

I've come across a book review by Bill Muehlenberg
on the web:

"Christianity On Trial: Arguments Against Anti-
Religious Bigotry." by Vincent Carroll et al.

In his review Muehlenberg tell us that:

"As the Western world grows increasingly secular,
the attacks on religion in general and Christianity
in particular become ever more pronounced.
Christianity especially has long been the object of
ridicule, criticism and ostracism. Of course some of
that is earned. But much is not..."

I won't present a thesis of all the positive aspects of
Christianity - that the reviewer lists. It's not
necessary - because we know about the charitable and
benevolent societies that were developed - we know
that religion has been a supreme source of inspiration in the
arts. Some of the most beautiful buildings in the world
are houses of worship. Much of the world's greatest
music in religious. Religious stories have provided
countless subjects for paintings, sculpture,
literature, dances, and films.

During the Middle Ages, from the A.D. 400's to the A.D. 1500's,
the Christian church was the centre of learning in Europe.
Priests and monks working in churches and monastries preserved
the skills of writing and bookmaking. Illuminated manuscripts
are still held in awe... as is the Gutenberg Bible- but enough
said.

The reviewer sums up with: - "Attacks on the Christian
religion will continue. But many of the standard
objections turn out, on closer inspection, to be not so
damaging, being often based on misinformation or
selective use of the historical record..."

I am fully aware of what's wrong with certain aspects
of religion - especially with the hierarchy of the
Catholic Church - however I find I have to respond
to generalisations and sweeping statements.

"Physician heal thyself?"

Yes Olly, I fully agree - that's a good place to start!

Hello Foxy,

Please excuse my brevity. I’m midst developing a mathematical model to help evaluative cross-cultural behaviour. It is interesting work, but very time consuming.

Thank you for the excellent reference. What jumps out me from the Muehlenberg cite is, “Christianity especially has long been the object of ridicule, criticism and ostracism. Of course some of that is earned”. Herein, the word “some”, I find quite moderate. Moreover, I think that sveral major historical events would standup to inspection. We might be able to dispense with the Salem Witch Trials, but not the Inquisition.

Yes, Christianity has multiple personalities. One could readily envisage Robert Louis Stevenson, in an alternative universe, writing, “The Strange Case Cardinal Jekyll and Mr Hyde”. In St Petersburg, there are the magnificent domes of the good Cardinal, yet we learn that Mr Hydeski used prisoners on the spans, knowing scores would fall to their deaths. The contribution of the devout, to music and art, has been immense. On the other hand, if the ill-deeds are measured, and, if Christianity blankets History, the NAZIs are a mere handkerchief and the KKK a postage stamp, by comparison.

I suspect that many Christians do not have a good idea of the Christianity’s history. There might be a vague notion of the Crusades, perhaps; yet, how many would be aware of the persecutions of the Pagans, after Nicaea? Popular history books have an entire necropolis in the closet, when it comes to Christianity. Actually, I suspect many Church attending Christians are not Christians in the sense of its broader corpus.

Or, is Christianity like the Young Girl/ Old Women Illusion in many Introductory to Psychology books:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/YoungGirl-OldWomanIllusion.html

One cannot deny either face, yet one does not see the two faces concurrently.

[Not so brief after-all]

Regards,

Oly

Dear Oly,

Thank You for your eloquent and informative
response. I always enjoy your posts - I learn
so much from you.

I've got to confess I'm not one of those
'church-going,' Christians. And there's
much that I question. (I was raised a
Catholic) - however, I suspect that I'm not
a very good one

Dear Foxy,

I appreciate the effort you put into your quality posts. Thank you.

I was raised a Catholic but went to secular schools. My parents were not particularly religious and, I did on occasion go to mass without them.

I'm sure this secular humanist could do with improvement.

Oly

I have been in Sydney for a few days. That is why I have not been participating in this discussion. While I was in Sydney I attended the 80th birthday party of a Marxist. There was a lot of good food. Most of the people there were Marxist believers, but I am not. Two musicians played the “Internationale”, and most of the assemblage lustily sang along. After approximately 100,000,000 Marxist generated corpses they can still believe.

Oliver mentioned the Buddhists. Although Buddhism is regarded as a religion of peace that most violent group of men, the Japanese officer corps, in WW2 were almost all Buddhists. Currently the Buddhist clergy in Sri Lanka have backed the bloody suppression of the Tamils.

Uncritical belief in having a truth denied to others is found in both religion and secular philosophies. That sort of belief has led to atrocity. Marxist and Buddhist believers can exhibit as great cruelty as believers in God.

I also talked with a man who assured me that Prime Minister Rudd was trying to destroy Christianity. I pointed out that he has just allocated 26 billion dollars to independent schools mostly Christian. He retorted, “A big coverup.” His paranoid fantasies can be found at http://www.cosepp.com/. Click on Police Persecution, Barbarism, Tortures... of Joseph Costa, in Australia.

Went to hear a talk in Sydney parliament house by John Keane, author of “The Life and Death of Democracy”. He spoke of the tremendous devotion to democracy by poor people in India. The poorer they are the more likely they are to vote. During question time an Indian in the audience remarked that the voting turnout among poor people was simply due to the fact they got paid to vote, and they needed the money. It was evidence of corruption not devotion. Professor Keane was another uncritical believer. Nevertheless he has written a good book.