Dear csteele,

I condemn neither prostitutes nor those who use their services. My cousin had a severely emotionally disturbed son. Although of normal intelligence he could not get his emotions under control and was in and out of mental institutions. He had never had sexual relations, and my cousin found a prostitute who was willing to accommodate him. She was very compassionate, and the young man had a good experience. For a while he was at peace.

You have hit upon a truth. You wrote: "The pharaoh appears as a far more moral character than Abraham"

Pharaoh appeared to be a far more moral character than Abraham, but was he? The more powerful you are the easier it is to be moral. It takes more courage for the weak and powerless to be moral.

Perhaps that is why God is a tragic figure. In his power he is powerless to make humanity behave virtuously.

I despise Bush 43 for lying my country into war. The president of the United States is powerful enough to be moral without great fear of consequences.

I think Franz Jägerstätter a heroic figure.

In 1940 the German army conscripted him. Returning home in 1941 on an exemption as a farmer, he began examining closely the religious reasons for refusing military service. He wrote a series of questions about the morality of the war that he discussed with his bishop. He was saddened that the bishop seemed afraid to confront the issues.

Jägerstätter refused to accept the Nazis' aims. "It is very sad to hear from Catholics that this war is perhaps not so unjust because it will wipe out Bolshevism," he wrote. "But what are they fighting? Bolshevism or the Russian people? When our Catholic missionaries went to a pagan country to make them Christians, did they advance with machine-guns and bombs in order to convert and improve them?" He added: "What Catholic can dare to say these raids which Germany has carried out in several countries constitute a just and holy war?"

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In 1943, after being called to active duty, Jägerstätter reported to his army base and refused to serve. A military court rejected his assertion that he could not be both a Nazi and a Catholic and sentenced him to death for undermining morale. A priest from his village visited him in jail and tried to talk him into serving, but to no avail. Jägerstätter was guillotined on 9 August 1943. "I am convinced it is best that I speak the truth, even if it costs me my life," he wrote before his execution. In a final letter to his wife, he asked forgiveness and said he hoped his life would be accepted by God as "atonement not just for my sins but also for the sins of others".

He had the power to say, “No” and the courage to say it. He was the only Austrian layperson who belonged to no political group to do so.

You referred to Abraham as a frightened herdsman. Jägerstätter was a frightened farmer, but he had the courage to say, “No”. “In Solitary Witness” by Arnold Zahn tells his story.

I think men can go off to war because they are more afraid of being called a coward or being despised than they are of the war. I think it takes great courage for someone to refuse to do wrong when all those around them find it acceptable.

I can see God as neither a child nor an adult. I am not sure there is a God, but I think that if God exists God is not in the image of man with a human life cycle.

Dear davidf,

My apologies for the tardy reply.

I too am hard pressed to condemn either prostitutes or indeed their clients but I would not extend that reservation to those who exploit and profit from their trade. There is a question of where the power lays and I would imagine in the patriarchal society of the time it would have lain with Abraham.

Thank you for your piece on Franz Jägerstätter, he certainly is one of those Christian saints to whom you refer. Franz is inspirational while from Abraham we get an understanding of what it is to be human. I am appreciative of the fact that Franz asked his wife for forgiveness.

When you say he was the only Austrian layperson to say no are you referring just to the Catholics? Didn’t the Jehovah Witnesses also refuse to serve or to acknowledge Hitler as the supreme leader and were sent to the concentration camps where many perished when a their own signature would have freed them?

I wonder what Abraham’s response might have been if we had told him of Franz’s actions? Might he have retorted that he had a wife and destiny to look after?

I have been giving Abraham’s behaviour further thought and have come to the conclusion we are likely missing context that history might have obscured from us. My thoughts are that there was probably a high level of shame if you were caught sleeping with another mans wife. This prohibition may not have extended to widows and for this reason the beauty of Abraham’s wife put him at risk. Ordering his death would have paved the way for the Pharaoh to sleep with Sarah without condemnation. Was not a similar crime perpetrated by King David?

Possibly, once it is revealed that Sarah was in fact Abraham’s wife, the rights and privileges of a wronged husband meant he then wielded some sort of power over the Pharaoh. Pure conjecture though.

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Your point that “The more powerful you are the easier it is to be moral. It takes more courage for the weak and powerless to be moral.” is a strong one. Is this what disappoints you about an all powerful Genesis God?

It is reflected in a Christian ethic as expoused by the story in Mark chapter 12.

41And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
42And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
43And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
44For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

However my favorite Rabbi, Rabbi Krusner, in his book To Life from which I can’t quote directly as I have loaned it to someone else talks about a Jewish perspective which moves the emphasis from the giver to the victim being succoured. That the rich man’s donation was able to help far more people in need why shouldn’t we regard it as a more moral act?

How would you compare Franz Jägerstätter to Schindler?

Machiavelli (again this is from memory) also had an interesting take when he reflected on an moral act done in secret by a ruler considered immoral and despised compared to a loved ruler who performs the same act in public receiving further adulation as a result.

As to God enjoying a life cycle similar to that of humans would you agree that the rise of the American Jesus has served to ‘retire’ the old man to the back room, at least in that country? Certainly a far cry from the childish behaviour of kicking down his sand castle in Genesis and his procreation activity in the Gospels.

Sorry to but in on what appears to have become a private conversation, but I think on the question of 'God a child' there does appear to be a progression. In the early bible, God seems to me to be portrayed very much as a petulant child, always taking his bat and storming off when he doesn't get His own way (and kicking more than a few garbage bins on the way out). The New Testament God seems a little more mature, although the sacrifice of his Son seems to have made him retreat for good...
That's a question that I haven't seen addressed by the theist/atheist debate. The bible records innumerable events over millennia.
Why did it stop?
On the question of the widow, look to Bill Gates. He is currently being praised for giving away 23 billion dollars; a princely sum indeed. On the other hand, he could give away another 20 billion, and still be a billionaire.
So what did it cost him?
And why did he have so much money to start with?

Dear Grim,

We can discuss Hamlet, a fictional character. Why not God, another fictional character? We have restricted the discussion of God to the entity portrayed in Jewish tribal myths in the Bible. There doesn't seem to be people on this list who know about the other accounts of God.

If Gates' money was spent well it did a lot of good. Gates has a rare combination - skill in technology and the business acumen to exploit the technological development. His giving seems genuine benevolence.

The account of miracles stopped because people are more critical of what is happening but not critical enough to challenge ancient myths that many assert as truth.

Dear csteele,

Please don't apologise for a tardy reply. It was a thoughtful reply, and you have no obligation to reply at all.

I agree with what you said on the question of prostitution. I favour legalistion of that activity as well as legalisation of drugs.

You wrote: "When you say he was the only Austrian layperson to say no are you referring just to the Catholics?"

I wrote: "He was the only Austrian layperson who belonged to no political group to do so." I should have written: "He was the only Austrian layperson who belonged to no group which opposed the Nazis to do so." The Catholic Church had signed a Concordat with Hitler and recognised the right of the state to demand military service. Jehovah's Witnesses did not. His church backed a JW who refused. A Catholic who refused was backed only by his conscience, and the members of his church would prevail upon him to accede to the demands of the state. Currently Jägerstätter is being considered for sainthood. However, until recently he has not been because he opposed both his church and the state. Zahn called the book about him "In Solitary Witness" because nobody supported him. A JW was not on his own in resisting Nazi demands but was backed by his church. As a matter of fact Jägerstätter had a JW cousin who did not refuse service and survived the war.

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