Dear David f,

You ask, "If Christianity is the force for peace
and love that it claims to be, why did the vast
majority of German Christians support Hitler?"

I suspect now that you're simply stirring David.
Because deep down you know the answer as well as
any first year student of history should.
And you've been to Oxford right?

But I'll bite.

There are a few reasons - Many Germans hoped Hitler
would bring order
to a nation suffering economic depression, mass unemployment,
social disorder and political instability.

However, after Hitler became Chancellor of Germany he turned
the nation's fragile democracy into a one-party dictatorship.
And, used the same methods to achieve his ends (as did Stalin) -
that of terror. Police rounded up thousands of
opponents detaining them in concentration camps. Hitler also took
control of the Churches in Germany. They had to be faithful to
the Nazi regime or else. The Barmen Declaration, 1934, was a
call to resistance against the theological claims of the
Nazi state.

I'm really finding that this discussion is getting extremely
tedious, and we're simply going around in circles.
I frankly can't see the point of continuing with it any
further. As I've written previously - among those who,
out of cowardice, greed, or whatever reason, chose to
collaborate with the Nazis - were Christians and Jews, Germans,
and members of all nations caught in the merciless war.
No faith, no nationality, no race was free of cowards or
collaborators. No group was spared from killers or
traitors in its midst.

I frankly don't see the point of continuing this discussion
any further - it's all getting a bit tedious.
Think what you like David -
Enjoy your week-end.

Dear Fractelle,

Catch you a bit later my dear, it's a beautiful day
and I'm going to go out and breathe in the fresh
air and catch some sun ...at the Botanical Gardens.

See ya.

Dear Foxy,

It is tedious, but we wouldn't be having this discussion at if you hadn't characterised my initial statement that the majority of Christians followed Hitler as inaccurate. It was quite accurate. Your posts go round and round in a process of denial.

You point out how terrible the Communists were, the resistance of Bonhoeffer and others and a lot of other red herrings as though they excuse what happened with the Nazis.

Hitler made no secret of his agenda. The Germans knew what the Nazis stood for.

You wrote: "As I've written previously - among those who, out of cowardice, greed, or whatever reason, chose to collaborate with the Nazis"

That sounds as though the Nazis were an outside force. Many Germans chose not to collaborate with the Nazis but to be Nazis.

No dictatorship can exist unless the dictator has a fairly significant number of followers. Hitler was not a monster from outer space. Germans revered and identified with him.

One reason that Christian Germans became Nazis or supported the Nazi program is because they agreed with it.

The world would not be a place of complete harmony and peace if there were no religions. However, I think it would be a bit better off without Christianity.

The Marxist governments were most horrible and oppressive. However, there is one great difference between those regimes and the Nazi regimes. The Communist governments had a much higher percentage of their population in the secret police and other instruments of repression than the Nazis did. The Nazis did not need as great a percentage of their population in various security forces as the Communists apparently because the Nazis had greater popular support than the Communists had.

The Nazis used the Jews as a scapegoat for Germany's troubles because centuries of Christian portrayal of the Jews conditioned the German population to accept that gestalt. One reason the vast majority supported Hitler is because their churches conditioned them to support a platform of hate of the Jews.

david f,
Please post what your culture and philisophical world view has done for World peace and harmonous development between peoples. We might have somthing to learn. It is easy to bag others demonstrate what you and your people have done and how it is bettering human relationships.

Dear David f,

I usually ignore sweeping statements and generalisations
because they don't mean anything - without facts, specifics,
and evidence(figures, percentages, actual proof et cetera).

But I responded because I was suprised at the sweeping
statement you made and politely called it "inaccurate,"
which in fact it actually was - being simply a
generalisation without any evidence.

Just a reminder, you stated:

"Most of the German churches and most of their
parishioners supported Hitler because the years
of Jew hatred promoted by their churches
conditioned them to accept it."

Supported Hitler? Support can mean a variety of things.
What kind of support exactly? This was only one of the
questions that came to mind...

Anyway, as I stated in my earlier post - I don't see
any point in continuing a discussion with someone who
sees my views as merely "red herrings."

You've had your say. I've had mine - seeing as neither
of us is willing to modify our judgements - let us
simply agree to disagree.

Dear Fractelle,

The sub-title of Paul Kriwaczek's (2002) book
"In search of Zarathustra: The First Prophet
and the Ideas that Changed the World," indicates
just how important Zarathustra was in his era.
Note 'the first prophet.' Note 'ideas that
changed the world.' I quoted Tor Hundloe in my
earlier post who tells us in his book, "From
Buddha to Bono," "Zarathustra was an early -
possibly the first - advocate of the 'golden rule'
(do unto others as you would have them do to you)...
Zoroaster's golden rule has been appropriated by the major
'modern' religions...if and we do not know with certainty
the golden rule was first formulated by Zoroaster, we owe
him enormous respect."

You cited Leonardo da Vinci - and his inventions.
What about Copernicus, when in 1543 - he proved
that the earth revolved around the sun, not the
sun around the earth. Reflecting on this today
we can contemplate what the public reaction must
have been to such an unbelievable revolution in
scientific knowledge. However - in 1543 only the
small group of educated elite were to learn of
Copernicus' discovery when it was first made.
It was centuries before the masses were to obtain
the necessary education to appreciate the
significance of the discovery.

And you're absolutely right - the difficulties
that this knowledge, and the approaching
avalanche of other scientific breakthroughs
were going to have for uneducated people
and on the influence of formal religions
(each wedded to its own specific mysticism)
can be imagined. The battle between science
and religion still continues to this day.

But don't worry too much about me dear Fractelle.
I've got a fairly level head on my shoulders -
and in my case as you know my journey of self-
discovery is still continuing - I'm not a fanatic.
I'm merely human - and when the right buttons
are pushed - I react - often to my deep regret.

david quote<<The world would not be...a place of complete harmony and peace...if there were no religions...However,..I think it would be a bit better off without Christianity.>>>funny no re-ACTION...but for jesus...who revealed..goys can go to heaven..as well as the non goy...no xtianity...then heaven would still only be taking judeans...for such is their belief..as you well should know david

<<The Marxist governments were most horrible and oppressive>>>mainly trying to extinct xtians....as the angel of fatima warned..

.<<However,..there is one great difference between those regimes and the Nazi regimes.>>>yes mainly they turned from killing[pruning the branches...and low hanging fruit...attacked the root and stem

<<The Nazis used the Jews..as a scapegoat for Germany's troubles because centuries of Christian portrayal of the Jews...One reason the vast majority supported Hitler is because their churches conditioned them to support a platform of hate of the Jews.

>>.no it was media driven...crystal nacht...remember..it allways begins by scapegoating others,like now its arabs...before that gooks/nips/...well your better versed in the name calling...i speak out against all eugenics...[past and present]...hating all the many..hollow costs