I have a dream! I want to create a small green park for travelers, some where in a desert, we will discuss about it.
I can not do it alone, I do not have the money and the time to do it but I am sure we, forum members, can create not only one but many small parks in our deserts.
Do you like to take part in the creation of a small park in an Australian desert, as a first step to convert our deserts to green parks and forests?
There are machines which can make water from the air, they do not cost very much, we can buy some of them.
We need trees which can savy in hard conditions, high and low temperatures, in dry conditions. I read for some kind of trees in Israel or Latin America. We can ask Australian authorities and australian Universities for advives about it.
We will need at least two small power generators, may be solar generators or solar chargers to run the pumps for the water or for the machines. I am sure we will find the best advices about it for free.
We will need strong, good quality of hoses to transfer the water from water machines to each tree, we can do it.
We will need a committee with 7-10 members to manage the whole proccess. Even we can create an organization for it. I know we have plenty, credible and creative members in our forum, we can find many persons for the committee or to create an organization. We must open a bank account for the donations, I do not like to have any relations with the bank account.
I believe Australian authorities will be happy to give us a small part of desert to convert it in a green park.
I know if we succee we will open the way for more parks in the deserts, for bigger parks in our deserts.
I need your help, I need your practical advices, I need your support.
Let's do our first step!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

The following two websites may be of interest to you:

http://www.outback-australia-travel-secrets.com/australian_national_parks.html

and

http://www.outback-australia-travel-secrets.com/australian_deserts.html

Foxy
The problem with moste people is that they want many things, many changes but they are not ready to do many things for the changes and improvements they want.
WE CAN convert a small part of a desert to a green park, we can create an oasis in the middle of a desert, we can create a small pilot project, transforming our deserts to small green parks or to big forests. The statistics in Australia, the satelites for Sahara desert show that there is higher rainfall in the deserts worldwide.
The desert mouse has already extended its range from the central Australian desert into the western Pilbara, and the number of wild camels in the Australian deserts is increasing.. Parts of the Kimberley even saw their rainfall increase by as much as 300 mm!
http://www.outback-australia-travel-secrets.com/australian-desert.html

Tarek el-Kowmey, points proudly to the banana trees he grows on what was once Sahara sands "All of this used to be just sand," he said. "Now we can grow anything."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Egypt-plans-to-green-Sahara-desert/2007/10/08/1191695781422.html

World's first self-watering desert plant discovered
The rare plant,harvests 16 times the amount of water than otherwise expected for a plant in this region based on the quantities of rain in the desert. The average precipitation in the Negev is only 75 mm per year, yet the plant is able to harvest quantities of water that are closer to that of Mediterranean plants, reaching up to 426 mm per year.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/emergingtech/?p=1642

the Jerusalem pine can grow to 40 feet high and 15 feet wide, and is one of the best, fastest-growing desert trees
http://desertgardens.suite101.com/article.cfm/top_5_low_desert_evergreen_tree

Willow acacia, is a gold flowering tree with weeping branches. Native to Australia, it grows in hot, dry regions, and is well adapted to minimal care' landscapes. Numerous flower clusters run the length of pendulous branches, projecting out lines of golden color. Blooms appear in March and persist for several weeks
http://deserttrees.net/?p=41
It is shamefull that we say so many things and we use so importand words BUT we mean a very small number of them or nothing!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios,

Orange juice, apparently, makes the 'come down' a little less harsh. If in doubt, saline my friend, flushes the system MUCH quicker.

If this DOES - by some miracle - (maybe you need Peter The Believer on side) actually happen I'd suggest bottling your success and sell it to all the farmers.

Good luck.

StG
No much work needed to transform a small part of desert to a green park. The rainfall in deserts continue to increase , there are many trees which can savy and grow up unter less water, we have plenty deserts, we have many successful stories converting deserts parts to banana fields etc.
If people in other countries can do it then we can do it BETTER! but we are lazy one! we want everything but we are not ready to give anything, or we are not ready to work enouph to convert our deserts to green parks and forests.
I am ready to give money and work for it are you ready?
I prefer the acts, I prefer the creation, I prefer to leave something for next generations not simple empty words. ARE YOU?
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

So, what's your plan exactly?

So far all we've heard from you is empty words.
Not even important ones!

If you want people to support what you're offering -
you have to tell them what your objectives are,
provide them with information for what exactly
it is you're proposing - where, and how,
how much it will cost et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. -
be specific - then perhaps you'll gain some credibility.
And you certainly won't get people giving you money
if they don't know how you propose to spend it.
Saying something doesn't cost very much - is simply
not good enough - the same as saying, "I want a
park in the desert," doesn't mean anything either.
It's like a guy sitting in a pub and saying to
strangers - "I'd like another beer thanks,"
Yeah right, that's going to happen - as we all
walk out the door and head for our cars.

Antonios,
I like your thinking outside the square , but mindful of the below:

“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven”

I recommend one variation to the blue print.Rather than build an oasis in out back Oz, which if it succeeded, would likely be either claimed by “traditional owners”, taxed out existence by hungry politicians, or swamped by “refugees”. We should be colonising Mars & The Moon--big time!

Even with present technology we could begin -with a little will in right places . I’d wager there would be no shortage of volunteers, and there’d be fantastic blue sky potential… once we do a bit of terraforming.

Actually, the process has already begun -in a small way http://www.redcolony.com/

Antonios Good on you for having a go but your idea would be very expensive and I doubt even slightly economically viable. Would it be just a tourist attraction? I dont think you could produce much timber or food. Not compared to say somewhere like the Hunter Valley or the Darling Downs.

The links you posted should illustrate the problems and certainly dont provide you with much support. The Australian desert getting more rain is great but not so great for the parts that are now getting dryer as the article points out. Egypts plans are also extremely expensive. $77.7 billion for 3.4 million acres. Thats 13759 square kilometres. We have 550000000 square kilometres of desert. How much would that cost?

The rest of your links about plants are also a worry. Have you never heard of Prickly pear, Lantana, Bitou bush, Cane toads, rabbits, foxes? Introducing new plants or animals to environments where they are unknown is very dangerous and silly and will not be tolerated these days, hence our draconian quarantine laws.

Cant you find something else to champion Antonios? Something more realistic and productive. Like I said before many people far better than us have put far more thought than we can into the same ideas as you are promoting and never has it ever come to anything more than lines on a map or even worse failure and environmental degradation.

mikk
The truth is that we have more rainfalls in our deserts than before.
My links show what the others did and not an advice to copy and past them here.
We have many local plants which we can use we can discuss with our authorities for desert plans from overseas.
Australian authorities and universities will give us the right advices, we need first a group of people ready to work for a small green desert park.
My primary goal is to open a discision about it, to start from somewhere, TO MAKE our first step.
The costs in Agypt, is for fruit trees, I speak for desert trees The machines which produce water from the air are very cheap, few thousand dolars each.
I do not speak for the part of Australia which starts to dry but for the deserts,
What I say is that we can create it. Always the first step is dificult but we should do it and we can do it.
Do not underestimate what australian people can do and do not ignore the benefits from it including the benefits for our tourist industry. AN OASIS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT.
We have some practical problems to solve where (place), how much will cost each tree, can we find them for free? a basic irrigation system.
BUT OVER ALL IF THERE ARE PEOPLE READY TO WORK FOR IT!
We can not do anything if we are not ready to work, to fight, to try, to spend from our pokets, to make the first step.
Let's give life to a small part of our deserts! Let's encourage others to follow us, let's open a window to the future!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios wrote: Let's give life to a small part of our deserts! Let's encourage others to follow us, let's open a window to the future!

Dear Antonios,

Our deserts now have a lot of life. They don't need to be given life. The life in our deserts is life that has adapted to desert conditions. There is no part of Australia that does not have life.

It seems more worthwhile to study the life that already exists in the deserts than to seek to change it. Life has adapted to a region where water is not as plentiful as in other regions. With climate change this will become a more widespread need.

Australia has created problems by ignoring the kind of environment we live in. Cotton is a plant that needs a lot of water. It is a good plant to grow in the US southeast or along the Nile. The Murray-Darling River system is not a good place for it yet cotton farmers have used the scarce water for their crops. The result has been most harmful to the river system.

In the nineteenth century English colonists in Australia had a society dedicated to replacing Australian plants with English plants. The society no longer exists as its harmful effects were finally recognized. http://www.sgapqld.org.au/ is the website for the Society for Growing Australian Plants.

Transforming the desert is not a road to the future. It is a road to a past that disregarded our existing environment and looked on it only as an obstacle for development.

Antonious
What would be the point? Deserts are a natural part of our environment. If the rainfall in desert areas is increasing nature will transform its environment in its own good time and far less intrusively than man.

david f
We are going to transform the deserts in other planets where there is no oxygen, no t life and we will leave a big part of our land as deserts?
Our world slowly-slowly is driven to food crisis, we will need more and more agricultural products and we will leave our land as desert?
Our goal should be how to maximize the benefits of our land including the deserts, how to take advandage from our land to create a stronger country.
We are lucky we have the oceans arount Australia and we can use their water for our needs.
About the desert trees It is beter to discuss it with Australian authorities, I believe we can find some desert trees overseas which can adapt our conditions.
Even if we use only Australian desert plans even then we can plant thousands of them in our deserts and support them. I prefer the creation of a green park close to a main road for use of travelers and tourist industry and to remind other people that they can create green parks in the deserts too..
My final goal is to prove and encourage Australians that we can use our deserts with a better, more productive and usefull way, to convert them for agricultural use.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios wrote:

We are going to transform the deserts in other planets where there is no oxygen, no t life and we will leave a big part of our land as deserts?

Dear Antonios,

Let me repeat. We have much life in our deserts.

Where there is no oxygen and no life it is not a desert. It is merely an area where there is no life. Our desert contains much life. It contains life that has adapted to deserts.

There has been too much human disregard for natural conditions. Quaddafi in Libya was going to create rivers by tapping into aquifers under the Libyan desert. A study revealed that the rivers would run out after 50 years, but by that time there would be a lot more Libyans. Quaddafi wisely cancelled the project.

Rather than trying to transform a desert into something else it would be better to learn to live in balance with what we have. Population control, wise use of existing water resources, conflict resolution and other ways of dealing with what exists seem to me much better than transforming deserts. I feel deserts have a value in themselves. They are not garbage to get rid of.

I remember when I was in our army. We were camped in a desert. I walked out into the night and was gazing at the stars above undimmed by man made illumination. I heard a voice. it was not the voice of God. It said, "Bud, gotta match?"

Foxy
1. start a discussion for our deserts, a big part of our land is deserts will we live them unsued or we will try to find ways to maximize the benefits from our deserts?
2. Can we take advantage of our land including the deserts to increase the production of our agricultural products when we know the demants for them will be very big and their values very high?
3. We can plant thousands of desert trees and support them, it is better if we can find a place close to a main road for use of travelers and tourist industry and to remind other people that they can create green parks in the deserts too..
4.My final goal is to prove and encourage Australians that we can use our deserts with a better, more productive and usefull way, to convert them for agricultural use!
Practical problems:
A) To find the right place. Only if we create a committee and contact the authorities ONLY then we will know what choices we have,
B) Trees Also we have to discuss about it with authorities and if they can give us trees for free or very low prices.
C) The water machines hoses etc will cost about $10.000 but we will try for free or low prices.
What realy I am ready to do for it every year.
1. $500 (my income is low)per year PLUS 5 days hard work in the desert, planting trees, I will plan about 300 trees per year plus liyng water hoses etc.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

Firstly allow me to apologise for my previous post.
It was out of line. The only excuse I have is
that I had a lot on my plate yesterday - with
my step-father (who's in a nursing home) having
suffered another heart seizure and being rushed to
hospital with water in his lungs. I was up with him
most of the night.

Anyway, I shouldn't have snapped at you like that.
Please accept my apology.

The Chinese poet - Kuan Tsu - 500BC wrote:

"If you're thinking a year ahead, sow a seed,
If you're thinking 10 years ahead, plant a tree,
If you're thinking a hundred years ahead, educate the people."

There's a great website that's part of a project
called, "Desert Knowledge Australia,"
whose aim is to create opportunities and meet
desert challenges through partnerships, knowledge,
and innovation ... they're concerned with sustainability,
and harmony in the desert areas.

I strongly suggest you look at the website:

http://www.desertknowledge.com.au

Dear Ant

I wouldn’t like to see a synthetic park in the desert for travellers when they can see man-made parks all over the world. Would a traveller want to see ugly power generators and machinery in unspoiled desert country? Is this not sacrilegious Ant - merely the addition of yet another feral invader?

Thousands of travellers visit our deserts to escape the trappings of civilisation. Many go to our deserts to experience the harsh terrain, the magnificent blooms of the deserts after rain and the eerie quiet and solitude, able to reflect without urban distractions.

Australian deserts often contains rocks and ranges, caves in which to escape the heat and gorges, bluffs and breakaways, hundreds of plant species, native mammals and reptiles, often out of sight, warily watching the invader.

However, the arid outback of Australia has lost more mammals in modern times than any other place on earth. Trends suggest that decades of intensive farming and other human activities are to blame. The emphasis nowadays is on conservation and the declaration of large areas as 'Indigenous Protected Areas' in which grazing is prohibited, which is allowing the ecosystems to recover though it’s with some dismay that our indigenous people are increasingly succumbing to the “sacred” dollar incentives offered by the mining giants.

Nevertheless, arid lands have a natural resilience to withstand disasters such as droughts and without destructive human intervention, over time; they generally bounce back, unharmed.

And if desert rains are increasing Ant, the desert will be a sight to behold. Even now, after minimum rain, one can witness carpet after carpet of everlastings and wildflowers, native grasses and native shrubs that delight, therefore, why would we need man-made green parks for those who want only to see nature in the raw? They may as well stay home, go to Hyde Park in Sydney's CBD or Kings' Park in Perth.

Foxy,
Love the folk wisdom....brilliant I'll add it to my list of wisdom.Ta

One observation though he doesn't exclude the sometimes seemingly use of a shovel in all options.
Application behind the ear might benefit some recalcitrance posters too ....ok that's a little harsh but sometime I muse the possibilities.

I'm such a naughty Examinator ant sometimes. ;-)

DavidF

I wonder at the *universal* wisdom of looking backwards. Having spent a lot of time regen and involved in research in some cases returning land to the past is not possible or even a sensible option. Times and conditions have moved changed and re instituting previous plants can be fraught with problems of the whole.

We need to understand the processes and work with them. This should involve by more reasoned uses of technology and and knowledge ensuring that we avoid the mistakes from the past as you highlighted.

Likewise Aussie plants can be just as destructive if not endemic or the environment is out of natural equilibrium.

I have seen Tessie trees and WA plants devastate Qld environments.
I lament the introduction of Nth Qld Palms into SE Qld the damage in the bush can be as bad i,f not worse as any weed.(no biological control)out competes some sensitive but essential endemic species.
One only needs to observe the near plague proportions of the native
noisy minor.

Change is inevitable what we need to do is manage it not let it manage us as occurs now.

Antonius
altering the environment as you suggest may cause more problems than it solves. Hence we need to be very careful what and how we change the land for the future. It isn't just that simple

Dear Examinator,

Your naughtiness is just one of the many
attractive things about you !!

:)

Horus
I know that soon or later we will colonize the space, at the moment we must see how we can miximize the benefits of our deserts with the minimum posible environmental cost. The explolation and colonization of ther space is a bigger and more difficult problem.
We start first with the easy, with what we have and we have plenty deserts and ocean water. We will use both of them to maximize the profits for our country and of cause to supply food to people of other countries.

Foxy, examinator, Protagoras, david f,
You know how fast have increaced human population on our planet!
If genetic engineering creates a new type of humans to eat rocks and sand no problem but if not, soon or later, we will have sortage of food, social and political problems, wars for food and water.
This problem will be bigger in our region, mainly in India with its billions of population, Indonesia etc.
The food sortage will not appeared from one day to an other but it will grow up by time! In 60-80 years the food sortage will be visible!
What will we do, knowing that food shortage is coming?
WE WILL TRY TO MAXIMIZE THE BENEFITS FOR OUR COUNTRY, THE BENEFITS FOR AUSTRALIANS, PRODUCINT MORE AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS AND SELLING THEM IN HIGH PRICES OF CAUSE THE HIGH DEMAND OF THEM!
We know that if we do not supply them (mainly from our region) with food they will try to come here as migrants or as invadors!
I understand your worries for the wild camels and the mouses and some trees and millions of tones of sand which will desappeare BUT THE BENEFITS FOR THE COUNTRY AND THE WHOLE WORLD WILL BE MILLIONS TIMES BIGGER.
Of cause we will find a solusion for the camels and the mouses BUT WHEN MILIONS OF PEOPLE ARE AT RISK, WHEN OUR PLANET IS AT RISK OF CAUSE THE FOOD SORTAGE THEN THE CAMELS AND MOUSES COME SECOND!
No I am not the bad guy simple I can not ignore the real, the main problems of humanity and I cry for a small number of animals which live in the desert and the desert trees.
I want a green park in the desert because I want to sent the mesege to Australians "LOOK WE CAN CONVERT OUR DESERTS TO GOLDFIELDS FOR AUSTRALIANS AND LIFE SAVERS FOR PEOPLE OVERSEAS!"
We have plenty and big deserts and there is plenty water in the oceans! Let's use them with the best way!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

I think you are a good guy. I am not attacking you as a person. From all I can see you are noble, generous, kind and skeptical - all things I consider good. I just disagree with your idea of transforming the desert. I disagree that we would benefit from it.

Other people have had the idea of taking parts of the planet and transforming it into farmland to feed increasing populations. For one reason or another these efforts failed. It really is a question whether we can devote as much land to agriculture in the future as we do now. In the United States in the thirties there were big dust storms. Farming in areas in Oklahoma and other nearby states had produced a dust bowl. The land should not have been farmed as the soil once plowed simply blew away. The Dust Bowl was eliminated by taking the land out of agricultural production and planting vegetation such as vetch which would stabilise the land. Not learning from the experience of the United States Khruschev in the Soviet Union put the rich chernozem in the Ukraine under the plow. The Soviet developed a dust bowl which had to be controlled in much the same way as the American dust bowl was. On some days in Queensland where I live the sky is darkened by clouds of dust blowing in from other areas of Australia. We have dust bowls in Australia because we are farming land that shouldn't be farmed. We have too much farmland in Australia now. We cannot sustain it. We are losing soil. We need to take some existing farmland in Australia out of production.

We should control our breeding. At the Cairo population conference the Muslim delegation opposed education for women. The Catholic Church opposed birth control by anything but the rhythm method. They banded together to fight recommendations in both those areas.

We humans are destroying the planet, and we are destroying ourselves in the process.

I think you are a good man who has a bad idea

Protagoras
I do not think most Australians travel often to deserts or care very much for the desert trees or animals. They have more basic problems to solve, they have more basic worries than the mouses and camels from the deserts.
The people who visit and know and love the deserts are an extremely small minority, they have big sensitivities about the mouses and spiders but do not care very much for the real problems of Australians or for people overseas.
When Australian people realize that they can benefit from the deserts, when they realize that we can convert our deserts to goldfields then the two main political parties will change policies about our deserts.
Personaly I belong to working class, to low income labours and I see as hypocrities all those who are crying for the mouses but they do not care for our problems and they do not do anything to support us.
For me it is more important the economic benefits from the maximum use of our land including our deserts than the small number of desert animals and trees. I believe most australians will agree with me.
I know that in the forum most people will desagree with me but these people are not a representative part of Australian society.
As usual if I have to fight against all of them I will do. I have nothing to lose and only to win, if they sent some people to me even beter!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

See Ant – now you’ve gone from “small green parks for travellers,” to colonising the deserts and you could just be in luck because the deserts are expanding.

Seventy five percent of Australia's dryland salinity problem is in WA. About 1.1 million hectares of South West land is currently salt-affected and over 14 000 hectares of land is lost to land salinisation each year (equivalent to 19 football ovals per day). And salt just loves a good feast of bricks and mortar.

There ya go Ant – who needs the Great Victoria Desert when there’s new ones in the making. Not sure what you’re going to feed or water the masses on though you could borrow my devining rod. Yay!

david f, Protagoras
WE DO NOT DO WHAT WE LIKE , we do what is necessary to do under our circumstances.
I care for the desert spiders too, I care for the desert camels too, I care for the desert rats too, I care for the desert trees too!
But when I see the dead bodies of the little children of cause the hunger, when I see the crying mothers for their lost children of cause the hanger, when I see the burnd farmlands and destroyed houses from a social mutiny of cause the food sortage, when I see the killed bodies of young soldgiers in a war which caused for food and water, when I see the miilions of unemployees, when we are under hopless conditions THEN THE DESERT RATS AND CAMELS, THE DESERT ANIMALS AND TREES COME SECOND.
For me state and federal governments should start from now the hard work to convert our sem-arid, arid and deserts to productive farmlands and they will bring plenty money and job opportunities for australians, for me the international comunity NUST starts from now the preparation for hard times, especialy for countries as INDIA, How they will feed 4-5 billions people? and they have nuclear weapons!
I know there are plans to bring row materials from the space, from planets or asteroids I know that there are plans for space colonization, I agree with these plans but I know we will need some time for them and their cost will be many times higher from converting our deserts to farmlands.
I like the history and philosophy too BUT over all I like the fight to minimize the number and size of our problems, to create better conditions for the future, to create better conditions for our world.
Let's open a window to the future, let's be inovative, constructive, creative and generous.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

"But when I see the dead bodies of the little children of cause the hunger, when I see the crying mothers for their lost children of cause the hanger, when I see the burnd farmlands and destroyed houses from a social mutiny of cause the food sortage, when I see the killed bodies of young soldgiers in a war which caused for food and water, when I see the miilions of unemployees, when we are under hopless conditions"

Just a thought.... I figure, somewhere, someone is working on a broadscale contraceptive which will be added to the water supply then

the hungry dead bodies, social mutiny, soldiers duing in wars and millions of unemployed workers will not be born in the first place and everything will be rosey...

Somehow I think that is a happier international outcome than the state of anarchy and starvation otherwise predicted.

Of course, the nations with the burgeoning populations are the underdeveloped one.. so it is their water supply which gets "juiced"...

The developed nations have already demonstrated how they can maintain population control without intervention and it is the developed nations who control the scientific resources to develop such a contraceptive.

Col Rouge
"it is their water supply which gets "juiced"..
Yes but they have billions of people and India and Pacistan have nuclear weapons!
The question is not who created the problem BUT the risks of this problem for Australia and the whole planet.
We, humans differ from the animals because we can plan, because we create first a plan in our brain and after we act. We know the coming problem, the food sortage and we must start the preparation to solve this problem.
When I speak for "A small park in the desert" I try to enter from the back window for a discussion how to miximize the benefits from our land and simultaneously how to minimize the food sortage in our planet.
Human kind always have been inovative and strong enouph to solve its problems, It is time for us to plan our next step BIG PROBLEM, THE BIGGEST ONE IN THE HUMAN HISTORY!
Col Rouge, I know you have a bleading heart and you will hurt for the desert rats and camels of cause my suggestions but I am interested more how to solve human problems and how to support human society. SORRY SIR!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

From your responses to Protagoras, Col Rouge and me it doesn't seem as though you have read and understood our posts.

Col Rouge
Help me to create a green park in the desert, next to main road and I will put every where signs with "THIS LAND SHOULD BE A FARMLAND!"
I do not like to fight with you every day, We can cooperate on this project, you will move the rats in an other area and I will try to convince the farmers that the desert is very good land for fruit trees and farms. I am sure you could do the best work I can expect!
Do you remember the god when he/she said "and concquer the world?"
Now it is time to concquer the deserts, before we start the space colonization.
Is not it funny that bastard migrants try to become colonists and the colonists...chicken!
DO NOT BE UNGRY AN INNOCENT JOKE!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

Cities are generally built along rivers or at harbour mouths. Settlements generally start where there is good farm land. Then the farmland gets converted to residences, businesses and industry. A more reasonable solution than yours would be to move all those cities to deserts. With the good agricultural land freed up we could feed the people living in the desert. We wouldn't have to worry about energy as the people in the desert could use solar power.

david f
Even before I read your posts I knew I will desagree with you. You prefer the prayers than the actions. You have delicate, sensitive seouls but this world changed from hard actions, not from prayers, not with the cross on hand, we can not satisfy all, we can not stop the changes because we will have to pay some cost, we try to maximize the benefits and minimize the cost BUT WE KNOW WE WILL HAVE TO PAY A COST! The cost which we will pay transforming our deserts to farmlands will be lower if we have plenty time to do it, if we leave it for the last minutes the cost will be very high.
I read your post. I do not write to agre or desagree but to promote my ideas!
Let's use our advantages from our deserts and the oceans!
Simple, clear things. I cry with you for the desert rats and camels but IF SOMETHING MUST BE DONE, IT WILL DONE!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

david f
1. At least from now on we must create our cities, towns NOT ON FERTILE AREAS.
2. We must take water from the sea to our semi- arid, arid and finaly to deserts. the whole process will take some time BUT we start from the easy one, from the part which will give the best results in the soonest posibly time.
We have plenty sea waterand land but we are VERY LAZY AND OUR GOVERNMENTS WORK FOR THE CORPORATIONS AND THEIR FINANCIAL SUPPORTERS NOT FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.
I am going work , no free time! Sorry
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

ASymeonakis “I try to enter from the back window”

Well bugger, I have heard of that approach too… different topic same approach…

“Col Rouge, I know you have a bleading heart”

News to me but I do have a bleeding problem with my heart.. its down to that “warfarin” which Peter the Believer thinks is some kind of mind altering drug.

“solve human problems and how to support human society.”

That is easy…. Leave folk to decide for themselves.. the strong will prevail and the weak will perish… and it does not need degrees in rocket science to make it happen.

“Is not it funny that bastard migrants try to become colonists and the colonists...chicken!”

List me among the “bastard migrants”… I came here in 1983, wife and child and qualifications established … after waiting in line like a lot of other migrants..

As to the chickens.. i would not know about them…. I prefer to chew on roo…

“VERY LAZY AND OUR GOVERNMENTS WORK FOR THE CORPORATIONS AND THEIR FINANCIAL SUPPORTERS NOT FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.”

So that’s the real reason there is no huge city called “Birdsville” (only a pub). Because of a corporate conspiracy to ensure Australia remains barren.

A few problems there..

Corporations are owned by shareholders who are actually iltimately "people".

Some corporations actually pay me (handsomely) to develop prediction systems to help them anticipate the future so they can plan accordingly.

No corporation has ever found success through limiting its commercial opportunities.

So your assertion, for the reasons above, is utter bunkum.

Oh one quick aside.... has anyone mentioned the effects of sea water on arable land… something to do with “salinity” (I think)….

As for “I am going work , no free time! Sorry” –

I only hope that job has nothing to do with aircraft or nuclear power-station maintenance.

My Bible tells me that when I work with God nothing is imposible. Seeing as God isn't here to do the work I guess us Human beens must. If we work together for good we acheave but if take we take God out of the equasion,self and devision takes over. Where there is unity God commands the blessing. Unity doesn't happen it takes a lot of humble pie and swallowed pride. We have the knowledge to make the deserts bloom, that is not the problem. Man proposes and God disposes for unless God builds the house we labour in vain. Belly before you pontificate on on the kingdom of God read the book of Ecclesiastes.

Poverty is not caused by lack of land space. It is a complex issue that, while well intentioned, turning deserts into green spaces is only a bandaid to the problem. The real issue is overpopulation in areas where food is scarce, lack of social support, economic inequity and corruption.

Why do we humans always want to force ourselves onto nature in ways which impact greatly on our environment - would it not be better to work with the environment which is actually quite adaptable as long as it has time to replenish itself.

*VERY LAZY AND OUR GOVERNMENTS WORK FOR THE CORPORATIONS AND THEIR FINANCIAL SUPPORTERS NOT FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.*

Not so Antonious, in fact your comment is a bit of an insult to
those living in the outback. But I put it down to "ignorance
is bliss" , well meaning, but totally impractical, from a bloke
who really does not understand the outback and its challenges.

Before you propose any more dreams, grab your swag and go out
there for a few months, meet the locals and learn what they
know, its far more then you think. They do what they do for
good reasons.

There is in fact no shortage of food. Does 20c a kg for grain
sound too expensive for you? Would you like to buy 1 million
tonnes? Its for sale right now, if you have the money.

Antonios our species has already done massive harm to this planet (which we depend on to live) in the quest to meet human needs and concerns. There is always a "need" which can be seen to justify more.

Caring for the existing environemnt is not disregarding the human needs but it includes a recognition that if we continue to soil our own nest we will eventually end up with much bigger human problems.

I suspect that for Australia rather than worrying about transforming true deserts we would get much better gain in working out how to revitalise existing farmlands. It should include finding or developing food crops which are more reliable in the environment we have. It might include finding efficient ways of shipping cities waste water to farm areas where rainfall patterns have changed but in doing so we'd need to ensure that we don't then cause salinity problems with rising groundwater levels.

We can work on making home gardens even more practical, I get quite a lot of nibbles out of my little yard. We could promote community gardens where resources are pooled, people meet and those without the resources to have their own garden can still be involved.

There are a lot of things we can do which don't involve destruction of yet more wilderness.

R0bert

R0bert
1. I use a metaphoric and symbolic language and often people misunderstand me, even GOOD FRIENDS. I put bits and pieces around and I am not very helfull to sent clear messesges. For example I wrote "I see the dead bodies of the little children....." BUT in other place I wrote that the problems from overpopulation, and food sortage will be visible within 50-80 years. THAT MEANS when I write ""I see the dead bodies.." I mean I expect to see all this terible things whithin 50-80 years IF WE DO NOT.....
2. YOU HAVE RIGHT! We start from the easy to the difficult, we start from the closer the the far, we start from the places where we have a basic infrastructure as water, roads etc OUR GOAL IS TO MIXIMIZE THE BENEFITS WITH THE MINIMUM COST IN THE SOONEST POSIBLE TIME.
3. then why I wrote for the deserts? R0bert you know, I know that soon or later we will have big problems in our planet, overpopulation, climate change, overused land, poisoned land and seas, food sortage etc!
We can not do many many things for birth control in the cast, undeveloped Indian, more than 4 billions people in this century, we can not do many things with Catholic or Muslim religious they are against the birth control, we can not expect many things. WE (HUMANITY)WILL HAVE A BIG PROBLEM, THE BIGGEST ONE IN THE HUMAN HISTORY!
I try to sent the messege that " WE CAN CONVERT OUR DESERTS TO GOLDFIELDS FOR AUSTRALIANS AND LIFE SAVERS FOR PEOPLE OVERSEAS!" I PUT A FLAG IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT AND I TRY TO TELL: DO YOU SEE THE FLAG? WE WILL USE EVERY INCH, TO THE LAST ONE FROM HERE TO THE FLAG! I SAY, we are strong of cause our land, our deserts and the food sortage in the rest world. LET'S START WORKING. I will try to open or write in 2-3 more threads about the agriculturar sector and I want to finish suggesting some land and agricultural reforms.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Yabby,
In the 60s/70s the CSIRO were doing a lot of research into re-establishing species of saltbush and other 'usefull' plants in large areas of arid and semi-arid country, which feral animals,particularly rabbits, had decimated. Do you know what happened to those projects or did they die with CSIRO restructuring.

I was also heartened to read about the dry areas coming back after the release of the Calisi virus, however recently I read that the rabbits have developed resistance, so I hope new strains are being sort.

I thought of suggesting these types of issues to Antonios, as an alternative to his dream, but decided it would be a waste of time.

I also understand that feral Camels and donkeys are now causing a lot of damage and it is hoped they can be controlled. Even better if some commercial use can be made of them.

You are probably the best contact that may be closest to these matters so I hope you can provide some up to date information.

pelican
I read very often your posts I am curious to know if you are a party officer, you have very clear ideas, you are the MOST CONSISTENT person on this forum and you deserve to be a party officer!
I am a barbarian or cave man you know that, I play around and if I think it is time to become bad, I do!
"The real issue is overpopulation in areas where food is scarce, lack of social support, economic inequity and corruption." YOU HAVE RIGHT! THE QUESTION IS WHAT WE WILL DO UNDER THESE BAD CIRCUMSTANCES.
If we leave them to die from hungry they, billions of people, will take US with them into the grave!
We have moral duty to support them and supporting them to create a stronger Australia.
You know the coming problems of cause the overpopulation, the food sortage, bad distribution etc, I understand your worries for the environment, to be honest the desert environment is like a dead environment, not very rich in live beings BUT THE BENEFITS OF THE USE OF OUR DESERTS FOR THE COUNTRY AND THE WHOLE WORLD WILL BE MILLIONS TIMES BIGGER.
When pelican we try to find ways to bring row materials from other planets or asteroids then we can not leave unused our land, our deserts. We can not be very selfis, when the humanity has problems we use our resourses to support it, do not forget that it will create big wealth and jobs for Australians!
I asked Col Rouge if he has big yard to take all desert rats in his backyard! For me always humans come first and we can not ignore them without to risk everything!
Let's start preparing from now , let's give our self the time to do good job, than to leave everything for the last minute and create big mess!
From all the animals on this planet I worry the most from the humans!
Let's plan our steps and prevent our self from bigger problems.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Banjo, saltbush is doing ok, with lots of farmers planting them
these days, on salt affected country. But drainage is the ultimate
solution for that problem, ie take the salt back to where it
came from originally.

Sadly CSIRO are doing less and less, when it comes to agriculture.
Calisi comes and goes. I did see a programme about the bloke who
did alot of the original work on Calisi, but I think that even his
funding is about to run out. Most of the biological control programmes,
which gave such great results, have been canned.

I tried to get our State Govt to invest a very small amount into
completing the bushfly programme here, but nobody is interested.
All very sad really.

On camels its a different story. They are starting to cause some
serious damage. I heard of a mob who plan to develop a mobile
meatworks, to harvest them and export the meat. IIRC then
Tony Burke is throwing some $ their way to get the project moving
as it seems to make sense. There is very good demand for camel
meat in the ME.

Dear Antonios ,

Myanmar's military junta extended Nobel Peace laureate and pro-democracy leader Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's imprisonment by 18 months today after finding her guilty of violating the terms of her house arrest.

Critics of Myanmar's military regime condemned the outcome of the 3-month sham trial,1 calling it a pretext to keep Suu Kyi out of the running during next year's presidential elections.2

The junta — which currently detains more than 2,100 political prisoners — commuted Suu Kyi's sentence from three years hard labor in prison to an 18-month extension to her house arrest in the hopes that the international community will view the reduced sentence as an act of leniency.

But Suu Kyi should have never been imprisoned in the first place.

Suu Kyi's deplorable imprisonment has been denounced by everyone from heads of state worldwide to nine of Suu Kyi's fellow Nobel laureates. Join the court of world opinion in condemning Daw Ang San Suu Kyi's sham trial. Tell the leader of Myanmar's military junta that Suu Kyi shouldn't serve another minute of her sentence.

We know that the odds of success may seem stacked against us any time we appeal to authoritarian rulers. But the recent release of two U.S. journalists from North Korea is proof that even totalitarian regimes are vulnerable to relentless international pressure.

The fact that Myanmar's government reduced Suu Kyi's sentence is also a sign that the military regime is susceptible to the world community's criticisms.3

We've proven time after time that even military dictatorships and other repressive regimes are no match for Amnesty's millions-strong global movement. Just last year, Ma Khin Khin Leh, another prisoner of conscience in Myanmar, obtained her release after Amnesty activists sent tens of thousands of letters to Myanmar's leaders on her behalf.

Join us today in calling for Daw Ang San Suu Kyi's immediate release.

Thank you for standing with us,

http://bit.ly/16gzG9

ASymeonakis “I asked Col Rouge if he has big yard to take all desert rats in his backyard! For me always humans come first and we can not ignore them without to risk everything!”

“desert rats”…. I wonder how the fellows from Tobruk (the ones under dear old Monty’s generalship) got into this thread but I see Ang San Suu Kyi has also got an honourable mention ….

So I suppose anything possible

Doubtless Oscar Wilde would have something witty to say like

“I sometimes think that God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.”

“If we leave them to die from hungry they, billions of people, will take US with them into the grave!”
Dear Ant

It’s quite astonishing that you persist with this crusade. I can assure you, that no matter where the “billions of people,” breeding like rabbits are, they have the potential to "take US with them into the grave."

Birth control was always practised by illiterate ancient tribes. Education is not a pre-requisite for commonsense and I know of no Qur'anic text which forbids prevention of conception except by surgical sterilisation.

When millions of disadvantaged people, scratching around like chooks to find themselves a feed, continue bearing children, the only responsibility Australia has is to denounce this inhumane practice, a practice which is morally one step up from infanticide.

The Catholic church’s edict on birth control should be denounced by the leaders of nations, as well as the resounding silence of most Islamic leaders, on its own population explosions. In fact, I would go further and recommend that birth control mitigation be incorporated into the Kyoto protocol since without the halt of human population, the objectives of Kyoto will fail.

Alas Ant, you are devoid of any knowledge on biodiversity or of the interdependence between different species, essential for human survival.

Rather you deem a zone of land containing wildlife, diverse plant populations, and intricate ecological systems as 'undeveloped', the plundering of the planet by humans as 'progress', and the current destructive discipline of sustainability, ‘normal’.

Under the entrancement of your proposal, you believe that unlimited production of food by Australian agriculture could feed the teeming “billions” who just don’t get it. These teeming "billions" remain an environmental, economical and socially frightening nightmare!

contd.....

Contd....

But hey Ant, why not take your proposal offshore?

The largest hot desert in the world is the Sahara. Over 8,000 years ago there was no Sahara Desert; what is now the Sahara Desert used to be grain fields. It is estimated that 2,500,000 people live in the Sahara Desert – one of the lowest population densities on the planet.

Only a few thousand years ago the Sahara was significantly wetter, and a large mammal fauna resided in this area. Climatic desiccation over the past couple of thousand years, and intense human hunting has obliterated these faunas.

The remnant large mammal fauna remaining is highly threatened by over-hunting so you could easily knock them off and the greater Sahara stretches across Africa to the Red Sea and down to the highlands of Ethiopia, encompassing an area 9,100,000 square kilometres.

Australia’s total land area is only 7.6 million square kilometres. Just imagine Ant how much more you could achieve if you opened up the Sahara desert to all those breeding “billions” and no biodiversity left to interfere with your objectives?

Indeed yes - Swimming pools, "small parks in the desert" for travellers, mini McMansions, sheep, cattle, pigs, poultry, grains, man-made poisons to knock off any stray ferals and tonnes of room to expand the human population to keep the desert people "strong." Yay - go for it Ant!

Protagoras,
The most obvious flaw in your scenario is that of AGW, pollution and such.

Stats suggest that if we had a different economic model other than Consumerism (magic pudding economics) that the world produces or can produce enough food for several billion people. However what isn't expressed in these numbers is the AGW, pollution etc and the "sacrifices" the profligate west would need to make in consuming less.
Antonius I wish you good luck and hope for the sake of the rest of the world your ideals succeed

Examinator – I was being facetious though I didn’t realise my banter was so subtle.

Agriculture and pollution? Consider our waterways which are now little more than an invisible chemical factory.

The streams, rivers and oceans have become the factory’s waste disposal streams but most of the chemical damage cannot be seen by the naked eye. While plants and animals have had millions of years to develop their arsenal of biological protection, without polluting their own environment, we've had about sixty years of experience in developing agricultural chemicals and in so doing have caused massive damage to our ecosystems.

That’s only part of the pollution problem in Australia which also has 100,000 contaminated sites.

India's lucky to have 54% of arable land, Rwanda 49% and Australia 6.4%. Yoohoo Antonios?

Meanwhile 45 million Africans go hungry while international investors continue to cast their sights on Africa’s farmlands, especially the best ones on the African continent.

In five years, investors have rushed to buy millions of hectares in Ethiopia, Ghana, Mali, Madagascar, and Sudan. Some examples are: "Saudi Arabia has invested $100 million for an Ethiopian farm where they hope to grow wheat and barley, adding to the millions of acres they already own in the war-ravaged country, as well as in neighbouring Sudan.

"China, on the other hand, owns vast tracts of overseas land, mainly in Algeria and Zimbabwe, and one estimate suggests that more than a million ethnic Chinese farm workers will be living on the continent this year. Kenya and Tanzania have leased land while the Ugandans have been big sellers, allocating two million acres of land to Egypt for wheat and corn.” Still with us Antonios?

However, between 1975 and 2008, Africa’s population grew from 335 to 967 million.

Examinator – I find your post a contradiction. You raised the issue of AGW and pollution. Do you really believe that colonising our fragile deserts with millions of people would be sustainable? If not, why are you supporting Ant’s crusade – particularly when Australia's ecosystems are failing from pollution and the threat of global warming is already evident?

examinator,
"Antonius I wish you good luck and hope for the sake of the rest of the world your ideals succeed"
Thank you!
My ideas will succeed ONLY if we:
1. build many and strong desalination plants around Australia
2. create lakes for the flood waters and sent there the clean water from the desalination plants, these lakes could be a paradise for the plans, animals and birds, an exelent destination for our tourist industry.
3. a water distribution system from desalination plants direct to the fields or threw the lakes, it depends on the positions of the land.
4.divide ALL the crown land in small pieces,as 20 acres each, and install irrigasion systems on these pieces.
5. sell or lease this land to Australians, many Australians will run to buy or lease from this land
6. create the infrastucture and build small towns, encouraging the cooperatives and small industries, create regional towns with schools, university branches etc.
7. Encourage industries to move close to them with various ways, including tax deductions etc.
8. Encourage the use of solar panels, for hot water, electricity etc
, the use of temperature monotic materials in the buildings etc.
GENERALY TAKE ANY STEP TO INCREASE THE INCOME FROM THE SALE OR LEASE OF THE LAND, TO INCREASE THE PRODUCTIVITY OF THE LAND, TO IMPROVE THE WORKING OPPORTUNITIES, POPULATION, ENTERTAINIG, ETC IN THESE PLACES ETC.
I RETURNED HOME FROM MY WORK LATE AFTER MIDNIGHT, GIVE ME TIME TO CONTINUE LATER!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

To quote Protagoras since you may have missed it. "India's lucky to have 54% of arable land, Rwanda 49% and Australia 6.4%."

Arable means "capable, without much modification, of producing crops by means of tillage." Tillage means plowing.

That means only 6.4% of Australian land is suitable for growing crops even if it had the water. Sometimes crops can be grown, but farming is not sustainable. After several seasons the land can no longer be used for growing crops.

In May I visited Mungo National Park. Erosion has carved the land in spectacular shapes. In the nineteenth century three sheep stations were established. The erosion was the result of humans trying to raise stock. Pest animals established themselves within the park shortly after the introduction of sheep to this fragile landscape. Intensive farming of these hard-hoofed animals and clearing techniques for feed led to the destabilisation of the soil (especially the dunes) and a change in the composition and structure of the vegetation. This lack of vegetation structure allowed the rabbits to establish holes and warren systems and they quickly bred and adapted to the environment. Rabbits are not finicky eaters, and in drought periods with rabbits in plague proportions, they have been known to completely clear vegetation from a landscape, leading to an increase in erosion. Predators such as eagles, goannas, foxes, snakes, feral cats and dogs eat at least 70 per cent of rabbits.

The land looked as though it could be used to raise stock, but it wasn't sustainable. Rabbits and other animals can live on it, but it is not suitable for humans to raise either crops or stock even with water. The operation is not sustainable. That means it can't be kept up. There are many abandoned farms along with abandoned sheep and cattle stations in Australia. Part of the reason is the uncertainty of the water supply. Even with a water supply the operation cannot be kept up. The result is desert with rabbits and other creatures replacing the creatures who lived there. Humans had merely changed the character of the desert.

david f
I it not the first time I answered to this question, simple you do not know that protagoras did not answered to my question about.
1. If you check the size of our arable land and our population and compare it with other countries you will find that our Arable land is many, many times biger from the land of developed countries with many times bigger population.
2. "without much modification" our land mainly needs water, we can do it with big costs and we do not have to do it from one day to an other but we start a long term plan to convert our country to a paradise and we can do it. We have the land, we have the water, we can use our brain to minimize the cost for the water and there are ways.
Sir I finished late last night from my work and now I must go shopping!
Our real problem is that our beaurocracy is very lazy, our governments depend on the corporations and land developers and the political parties lost their contact with australians, It is npt that we can not but that WE DO NOT CARE OR TRY AT ALL,
I WILL ANSWER TO PROTAGORAS MAY BE TONIGHT I HAVE EXTREMELY LIMITED FREE TIME.
BUT I HAVE FEW SUGGESTIONS WHICH WILL MAKE THE DIFFERENCE!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

*It is npt that we can not but that WE DO NOT CARE OR TRY AT ALL,*

Nope Antonious, its that those in the know have a bit of common
sense and understand that dreamers sometimes float along on the
clouds of ignorance.

So lets crunch the basic numbers. Its costs around 1$ to desalinate
1000 l of water, using el cheapo gas at the old price. As gas prices
rise, so will that cost.

It takes around 500l of water to grow a kg of grain. So your
proposal means spending 1$ on water desalination, to produce
50c worth of grain and you havent even yet allowed for the cost
of pumping that water, growing a crop, paying for fertiliser or
paying for transport from the desert to the coast.

Next you'll be telling us that taxpayers money should be used to
fund this kind of nonsense.

Antonious, my advice to you is don't give up that day job :)

"If you check the size of our arable land and our population and compare it with other countries you will find that our Arable land is many, many times biger from the land of developed countries with many times bigger population."

Ant - Could you supply us with some data please?

I do know that Japan's total land mass is only some 378,000 square kilometres but its arable land mass totals about 12%. Japan has a higher precipitation (rainfall) rate than Australia, however, since its only self-sufficient in rice crops, it has to import sixty percent of its food.

Australia feeds some sixty million people - give or take a few million subject to ongoing droughts and subsequent crop failure.

Africa in total has 30,365,000 Km2 of land mass and is a total failure in feeding its people and/or maintaining peace.

Australia's economical survival depends on agriculture and mining exports but it has trashed its fragile lands as a result. I mean it's time Australia acknowledged the desecration of our lands by the gold mining industry alone, an industry polluting and digging massive holes so someone in a faraway country can appease their vanity by sporting a ring or gold chain. Furthermore mining exceeds the CO2 emissions of electricity generation with some of its carbon-based chemicals and other hazardous waste emissions.

Therefore, if you know of other countries which surpass Australia's performance, you may also check on the state of their environment. Australians all agree I'm sure that we must honour our foreign aid commitments to assist in mitigating global poverty, however, Australia suffers a paucity of fertile soil and is well known for its ignominious high carbon emissions and pollution. As a result, our enlightened citizens have no intention of trashing what's left of this nation's environment by importing "billions" of humans who've already trashed their own environments.

Your mission to dump the problems of other countries onto Australian soil will not be well received. Australia must address its own pressing environmental problems since the Darwinian theory (survival of the fittest) is already in play. Learn from it Ant.

Protagoras,
Small point but one that rankles me Darwin's theory DOESN'T say "survival of the fittest". that was quoined by an Astronomer and fundamentalist critic of evolution.

Darwin's theory in context says 'Survival by the most adaptable' a whole different concept altogether.

Antonius

I know you mean well, BUT you could help yourself a great deal in learning a bit of basic ecology and how environments are effected by even the slightest change.

You have mentioned the well-being of camels a number of times, camels are an introduced species, along with pigs, rats, dogs, cattle, cats and so on. As much as I like camels (when they're not spitting) introduced creatures like them have already altered the Australian eco-system irrevocably.

Creating artificial environments on ecosystems that cannot support the demands, such as the type of "parks" you envisage, is part of the problem we are now facing with climate change, species extinction and depletion of our natural resources.

Establishing cities in deserts, for example Phoenix, Arizona has depleted the natural water table, not only leading to water-loss but land degradation as cracks and subsidence occurs, which further effects the natural flora and fauna which can no longer live in the changed environment.

Every thing we do has consequences, everything on the ecosystem we call planet Earth is interconnected - what we urgently need to learn is to live WITH the environment instead of impacting ON the environment.

“Small point but one that rankles me Darwin's theory DOESN'T say "survival of the fittest". that was quoined by an Astronomer and fundamentalist critic of evolution.”

Apologies for “rankling” you Examinator and I acknowledge the error. However, I shall continue to use the coined phrase: “survival of the fittest,” plus “unnatural selection” a result of Man’s technical ingenuity which has cocked up the entire genetic and evolutionary process and continues to do so:

WWI: Man-made Dichlorethylsulphide:- mustard gas: Total non fatal and fatal mortalities: 1,296,853.

WWII: Japan "Little Boy" and “Fat Man” nuclear bombs - immediate deaths of around 120,000 people (mostly civilians) from injuries sustained and acute radiation sickness, and even more deaths from long-term effects of ionizing radiation - numbers unknown.

Vietnam War: Agent Orange (dioxin) – endocrine disruptors, gender benders - carcinogenic, teratogenic, mutagenic – total deaths unknown and not about to find out in the near future. Litigation ongoing.

Stockholm Convention: Man-made POPs (ongoing): Killer Chemicals: Aldrin, Dieldrin, Chlordane, Heptachlor, HCB, Mirex, toxaphene, PCBs. DDT, Dioxins, Furans (additional nine pending.)

Chernobyl: Radiation poisoning and deaths of humans and animals - ionizing radiation effects ongoing

Iraq: The poisoning of Iraq by depleted uranium

Union Carbide (Orica): Dioxin poisoning of Sydney Harbour - bioaccumulative – biomagnification plus 10,000 tonnes of indestructible hexachloride benzene (HCB) languishing for twenty years in sheds at Botany Bay – a terrorist’s dream realised!

Swan, Canning and Helena Rivers in WA on life support – man-made chemicals

Dioxins and heavy metals: The poisoning of the planet – from the Arctic Inuits to Antarctica

“'Survival by the most adaptable' a whole different concept altogether?”

Examinator – Are you referring to these concepts of "adaptation" and "unnatural selection?":

Warning: 1 & 2 - Shocking graphics:

http://lorieh.multiply.com/journal/item/284/Depleted_Uranium_-_Iraqs_Nuclear_Nightmare_Warning_This_Is_Graphic

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0401/pjg33.html

Statistics:

http://www.llrc.org/health/subtopic/russianrefs.htm

Protagoras, Fractelle
We humans will savy only if we make big changes on our planet.
WE MUST USE OUR LAND WITH THE BEST WAY TO MAXIMIZE THE PRODUCTION OF AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS.
If an animal is usefull and productive we will full up our farms from it, if is not we will keep a small number of them to save their kind.
WE WILL CONVERT THE WHOLE BIODAVERSITY SYSTEM ON THE EARTH ACCORDING TO OUR NEEDS FOR SURVIVAL!
What we need it is not theories BUT solusions of the problems. WE WILL NEED MORE AND MORE FOOD. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE QUESTION? MORE FOOD
We are working with variuos ways to solve this difficult problem, we try for berth control but religious leaders are not helpful at all.
We do not do what we want, humans are the most dangerous animals on the earth and they have plenty weapons, plenty ways to destroy our planet. What do you expect India, Pacistan or other big or Nuclear countries to do when they have problems? Take their position, they will try to savy with any way!
What we do in this case? WE TRY TO MIXIMIZE THE FOOD PRODUCTION, WE TRY TO SAVE OUR PLANET FROM BIG VERY BIG PROBLEMS, WE TRY TO WIN TIME TO FIND OTHER KIND OF SOLUSIONS, OR TO LIMIT THE PRESS ON THE ENVIRONMENT, but my ladies WE try!
We try with new technologies, genetic engineering, to bring row materials from the space, planets, asteroids etc, to colonize the space, WE WILL TRY ... BUT FIRST WE WILL START WITH THE VERY EASY, PUT FEW PUMPS AND SENT THE WATER TO A DAM OR LAKE INSTEAD TO WEAST IT TO THE SEAS, BUILD SOME DESALINATE PLANS, TO USE ALL OUR LAND.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

"What we do in this case? WE TRY TO MIXIMIZE THE FOOD PRODUCTION, WE TRY TO SAVE OUR PLANET FROM BIG VERY BIG PROBLEMS,"

What - Australia save the planet? Go to bed Ant!

Protagoras
Australia is a whole continent with so small population, ok PLUS doing good busyness!
I returned late from my work, what hapened with you and you are not on the bed ?
Some times I speak for Australia and sometimes for the whole planet.

Fractelle
There is not one ecosystem but many. The ecosystem we call planet Earth is interconnected, (not exactly there are some isolated places) and it changes soon or later.
Humans change the system very fast, they destroy it.
For me Fractelle THE MOST IMPORTANT ARE HUMANS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SMARTEST AND STRONGEST ONE AND WHEN THE HAVE PROBLEMS THEY ARE VERY DANGEROUS NOT ONLY FOR THE ECOSYSTEM BUT FOR THE WHOLE PLANET, INCLUDING THE HUMANS.
If it is necessary for human sarvival to change the ecosystem, to create an artificial ecosystem WE WILL DO IT!
Humans do not have any other choice than to change our planet to savy.
Do you think we can have any logical expectation for birth control when Catholics and Muslims are against it? Do you think human population will start to decline? NO!
If Fractelle we are sure that our population will increase then we must find ways to cover the food needs from the increased population.
We can not start from the space from the difficult and most costly, we will start from the easy one, from our land, from our water, from our deserts. OK my friend?
I believe humans must create the ecosystem which fit most in their needs, in their goals if they want to savy of cause their overpopulation.
Australia is part of the world and we must do everything we can to support our world. We are lucky we have plenty land, let's do good business supporting parallel the humanity, most land we use, more productivity we have, bigger will be the benefits for Australia and the whole humanity.
Fractelle I do not like to fight with you but also I do not like to say you things I do not believe or like.
The life in the deserts and dry lands is not very rich, we will try to save the most we can but WE WILL CHANGE THE ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE IT WILL SUPPORT BETTER HUMAN NEEDS AND SARVIVAL!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonius

I believe there are already too many humans on this planet.

Also I am very well aware that this planet consists of a variety of ecosystems, I have a background in environmental studies.

I am also aware, as I explained to you, that all ecosystems are interconnected, any changes to one may have a domino effect on the others.

As the dominant (I question whether we are the most intelligent) species on this planet, the best thing we can do is:

Limit our numbers.
Reduce, to a minimum, use of nonrenewable resources.
Replace our present sources of energy with sustainable, non polluting sources.
Remind ourselves that we share this planet with other lifeforms which have as much right to be here as us - even the lowliest, including mosquitoes to which I am allergic.

Antonios,
Fractelle and I may not agree on many things, but on this we do.

There have been many others here that have given you sound, practical information about your dream. In particular about the Australian deserts. You would do well to take note of those.

I think it was Foxy that suggested that you do research, get some figures together and, if viable, put forward your proposals and then seek support. Everyone here would endorse that stratagy.

Nothing wrong with having a dream. I have had plenty of ideas that did not work after looking into them.

Fractelle
Can you change pope's mind? NO! Can you change Muslim religious leaders minds? NO! Can you do something to control berths in India? NO!
Do you expect religious power to decline or they will become stronger?
They will become stronger because people turn to churches and mosques when they have problems and they will have big problems!
Plus because the western progressive, people will become a small minority.
Fractelle I do not write what I like but what we can do, knowing that human population will increase in high degree. We need practical solusions of an avoitable HUGE problem.
The ecosystems are not very complex issues and we can understand their basics without special studies, you know the big shanges in our ecosystems from the dynosauros until our days.
Darwin's theory is an excelent tool to understand all the changes on the live beigns BUT we must understand that the Key word
" adapt" for humans have a slitly different meaning, and ITS MEANING WILL CHANGE AS HUMANS DISCOVER, USE AND TRANSFORM OUR WORLD.
Humans, Fractelle, do not ONLY adapt their environment BUT they transform it according to their needs and goals.
Humans, WILL SAVY ONLY IF THEY MAKE HUGE TRANSFORMS IN THEIR ENVIRONMENT, IF THEY CREATE AN ARTIFICIAL ENVIRONMENT WHICH WILL LINE WITH OUR GOALS, THE OVERPOPULATION PROBLEM IS THE BIGGEST ONE IN HUMAN HISTORY!
When we use the genetic engineering, when we plan to bring row materials from the space or colonize it, we speake for fast changes in our ecosystem or for a totaly new artificial system.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Protagoras,
My apologies I missed the valid point...I'll go stand in the corner in shame.....
I'm back now... and I agree within limitations we haven't cocked it up totally yet but on the roof of my house and with a pair of binoculars you can see it coming.

*Can you change pope's mind? NO! Can you change Muslim religious leaders minds? NO! Can you do something to control berths in India? NO!*

Antonious, I really think that you completely miss the real point
of this argument. If you keep producing more food to feed more
people, then you will need even more food to feed even more people,
etc. The problem keeps compounding itself into an even greater problem,
until the whole thing eventually collapses one way or
another. That it is exactly what Darwin's Origin of Species predicts
and its absolutely correct, if you stop to think about it.

So you are not proposing any solutions at all, but simply dragging
out the inevitable and increasing the problem for the future.

The pope might not change his mind, but we know that his followers
will ignore him on this matter, when given the option. Look at the
birthrate in Italy! So the real problem is that many women in the
third world don't have the choice that Italian women have. We should
give them that choice.

As for Islam, you are once again not correct. There is a huge
movement in places like Pakistan, which recognises that as food
costs increase and poverty rises, that family planning is a pretty
sensible way to deal with it. There is nothing in the Koran to
say that they cannot. So the preachings of some Islamic leaders
are not as inflexible, as that of the Catholic Church.

Once again Antonious, think about it. The more food that you send,
without family planning, the more babies you will have to feed
in the future. We need a solution, not an increasing problem.

The solution is to empower third world women to make choices about
how many kids they have, something that hundreds of millions don't
have right now.

Protagoras
Land use - arable land(%) 2006
Data source: 2006 CIA World Factbook
Chile 2.62
Norway 2.70
Egypt: 2.92%
Sweden: 5.93%
Australia: 6.15%
Brazil: 6.93%
China: 14.86%
United States 18.01
http://www.photius.com/rankings/geography/land_use_arable_land_2006_0.html

In 2006, there was 1.15 acres of arable land per person, world-wide (i.e. 7.68 billion acres / 6.68 billion people).
By 2039, there may be only 0.59 acres of arable land per person, world-wide (i.e. 7.68 billion acres / 13 billion people).
However, arable land is being lost at the alarming rate of over 38,610 square miles (24.7 million acres) per year.
Therefore, by 2039, there may be only 0.53 acres of arable land per person, world-wide (i.e. 6.865 billion acres / 13 billion people).
http://one-simple-idea.com/Environment1.htm

By 2050, India and Nigeria would cultivate 0.06 hectares of grain-land for each person, less than one tenth the size of a soccer field. China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Ethiopia would drop even lower, to 0.04-0.05 hectares of grain-land per person. Faring worse would be Egypt and Afghanistan with 0.02 hectares, as well as Yemen, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Uganda with just 0.01 hectares
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_26-1-2003_pg7_44

Protagoras, woke up my friend, big problems! let's produce more food for them and keep them far of our country, let's use all our land including our deserts!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Yabby
"The solution is to empower third world women to make choices about
how many kids they have, something that hundreds of millions don't
have right now"
The problem is that we can npot change people's minds, especialy religious people's mind, especialy when the representaves of their god bring the messege from their god that bert control is not allowed from their god.
We have to wait many centuries for popes to bring new messeges from the god BUT WE CAN IMPROVE THE AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTIVITY, WE CAN USE MORE AND MORE LAND FOR MORE FOOD.
I wrote many times I do not write what I like but we can do to support humanity in its difficult times of cause the food sortage.
We have plenty land plenty water in oceans let's use them to benefit our country and the whole humanity.
Soon or later women from poor countries will follow the western women and reduce the births but we do not know when it will happen.
It is more responsible to start from now preparing for the difficults than to wait for changes that do not depend on us.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

*Soon or later women from poor countries will follow the western women and reduce the births but we do not know when it will happen.*

It will happen Antonious, when they can afford family planning and it
is legal and available for them. We can make it available and
affordable for them if we wish.

*We have to wait many centuries for popes to bring new messeges from the god*

We don't have to wait at all, for as we can see with Italy's Catholics
and catholics elsewhere, they largely ignore their church's preaching
on this one, when they have the option to do so.

My point remains, the more food that we grow and send to the third
world, without family planning, the more people there will be to
feed next year and the year after. The problem will grow and not
be solved at all.

What you suggest makes you feel good, but it is certainly not a
solution. Its simply a bit of a bandaid over a growing problem.

Yabby,
My suggestion is how to win time, how to avoid the worst while we try to control the births. Do you understand me? I suggest what we can do , WHAT WE CAN DO NOW, your solusion is better but it does not depend on us. We do not know how much time it will take people non educated, from poor countries, with big financial problems, people who think pope is god's representative on earth, who think pope's words are god's instructions! They do not change from one day to an other.
We will have problems with them.
Do you see the war in Afganistan? This war will NEVER finish because this country is extremely poor, with 0.02 hectares of grain-land per person they will NEVER have enouph food and always they will fight against their government!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

*A report by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) states that Afghanistan was nearing self-sufficiency in grain production.[8]*

Read about Afghanistan's economy, only half of their arable land is
even cultivated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Afghanistan

They are rich in gas and minerals, but the Soviets put a stop to many
of their industries.

They could clearly grow alot more food, but its more profitable to
grow poppies instead and buy cheap EU and US taxpayer subsidised
grain. The very reason that many third world growers stopped
growing food, was because cheap, dumped, subsidised commodities
destroyed their market.

Yabby
I do not know where you found all these stories but according to CIA
Afghanistan is extremely poor, landlocked, and highly dependent on foreign aid and most of the half of their national income comes from the opium!

Afghanistan Economy 2009
SOURCE: 2009 CIA WORLD FACTBOOK
Afghanistan is extremely poor, landlocked, and highly dependent on foreign aid, agriculture, and trade with neighboring countries. Much of the population continues to suffer from shortages of housing, clean water, electricity, medical care, and jobs. Criminality, insecurity, and the Afghan Government's inability to extend rule of law to all parts of the country pose challenges to future economic growth. It will probably take the remainder of the decade and continuing donor aid and attention to significantly raise Afghanistan's living standards from its current level, among the lowest in the world
http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/afghanistan/afghanistan_economy.html

Afghan economy blooms as opium crop hits record
Last year the country produced almost 4000 tonnes, 75 per cent of the world's opium. The trade generated $US1 billion ($1.3 billion) for farmers and $US1.3 billion for traffickers, the United Nations says. This is more than half of Afghanistan's national income.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/10/1081326984949.html

Most Afghans depend on agriculture for their livelihood. This despite the fact that only 12% of its land area is available for agriculture. Equipment used is primitive. Peasants are totally dependent on spring rains and winter snows. Use of machines, pesticides or chemical fertilizers is almost non-existent
http://afghanistan.saarctourism.org/economy.html

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonious, I quoted you my source, Wickipedia is referenced,
if you want to check on where they got their stats from.

Yes, opium is a huge crop, far more profitable then wheat, so that
is what farmers grow.

Yes farming is backward and has huge potential to improve and increase
production if they wish. So no need to grow their food for them
in Australia, when they could employ Afgahns and grow it right there.

Yes, 12 % is arable and only 6% cultivated, so there is plenty of
potential to cultivate more.

So what Afghans need is not food imported from Australia, but food
grown there, using Afghan labour, water which they have, on soil which
they have.

Gas and various minerals could once again become industries for
them, as they were in the past, before the Soviets stuffed the place.