Davidf,
I and most anthropologists would disagree that humanism has its roots in Christianity. In fact many of the concepts are displayed before and separate from Christianity. One could argue much is genetic hard wired Survival of the individuals genes (Dawkins). SH can by virtue of their 'moral and humanity can co-exist with shamanistic belief structures. C/J and Islam see themselves as being the one true absolute way belief what ever. Buddhism could be also described as a 'humanistic' belief in that there are no gods and focuses on the human element etc.

Your observation about individuals not doing as they profess being defined as not being "a good anything" is true but is off what We were talking about i.e. *philosophical* comparison. When I mentioned Starlin was to illustrate that to be an Atheist one simply doesn't need to believe in a god. To be a SH there are a number of criteria.
The example I gave was shamanism (PNG).
Atheists logically see nothing unto aught about debunking shamanistic cosmology/reasoning to maintain their principal of no gods. What they and the West mindset(Christianity/Judaism, Islam) tend to miss is as I pointed out the indivisibility of these beliefs into separate fields.
While Judaism and Islam try to link the nature, behaviour, practically based taboos etc like shamanism but they tend to place god as being above all (thus Supernatural) where as that distinction/role doesn't can't exist in shamanism.(at least the PNG versions I have witnessed.
IMHO the choice of the PNG is binary either they maintain a culture that is 10s of Eons older than Aborigines or ditch it in entirety to become 'religion-fied' a concept requiring nuance and abstractions both of which are missing both conceptually and therefore in language. Most 800 languages not dialects are literal superlatives etc are noticeably absent.

DavidF has given us his six principles of Secular humanism.
1.But has not defined the spiritual unity of the universe.

2. Holds that a person has only one life, but has not given a purpose of being.

3. Considers that morality comes from the conscience and values of the community. But he cannot accept an absolute of moral purity - the image of Godliness.

4. Considers that science provides a more authentic understanding about the origin and nature of the universe. But cannot explain how DNA was formed.

5. Re-examines knowledge and ideas continually, to achieve ways of improving the living conditions of humanity and the world environment.
He has left secular science free reign for which we now know is the major cause of environmental problems.

6. Tries to maintain an open mind, recognising that human knowledge is never the final answer, and are prepared to live with uncertainty and accept that we may be wrong. Is this a confession there is an absolute after all, to which we aspire.

Runner:“You can label yourself a secular humanist, earth worshiper, naturalist or whatever you like. You still however like every other human on this planet is in desperate need of God's mercy and forgiveness. Denial does not change reality.”

Well said.

Anyone read “The Golden Torc”? Nah I can’t remember who wrote it, was a sci fi book I read when young.

This alien race put these necklace things on people which then enabled them to read the people’s minds. Now my recollection of the whole thing is cloudy and only one little bit and its meaning clicked with me and I remember it when listening to anyone where I don’t grasp their beliefs:

One person was deciding if they liked another person or could include them in something (not relevant really) and so they concentrated and read this other persons mind and way down deep they found a belief, an absolute held true faith. This person whose mind was being read believed beyond any doubt that there was another world with little people living in the centre of earth (or wateva planet it was at the time).

The mind reader could also see that this faith was so deep that the person could not be convinced in any way that this other world wasn’t real.

I don’t think the book mentioned if there was a little world in the middle of the planet but that’s hardly the point is it.

1. Rejects ideas of a creator god, believed by some to control human life and answer prayers.
2. Holds that a person has only one life, since the evidence for personal existence before conception or after death is totally unconvincing.
3. Considers that morality comes from the conscience and values of the community rather than any divine source.
4. Considers that science provides a more authentic understanding about the origin and nature of the universe than that found in ancient scriptures.
5. Re-examines knowledge and ideas continually, to achieve ways of improving the living conditions of humanity and the world environment.
6. Tries to maintain an open mind, recognising that human knowledge is never the final answer, and are prepared to live with uncertainty and accept that we may be wrong.

No mutilating of genitals? (did I get that one in before Banjo?)
No multiple wives and child brides?
No disinfecting cooking implements in cow dung?
No knocking on doors and thrusting pamphlets at the unsuspecting?
No chocolate eggs?
No burning boxes on the sidewalks of NY once a year?
No funny hair dos?
No fantasizing that your ex came back as a bug?
No killing in the name of a deity?

IT'S NOT MUCH FUN IS IT MR F!?!

(I have a fever!)

Dear David f,
No apology was needed, though I appreciate it.

>>the roots of antisemitism are found in Christianity is simply fact<<
It is not an established fact but depends on what you mean by roots, however I tend to agree with you: the roots of many things, good and bad, are found in Christianity since Christianity influenced and determined all European culture and thinking for many centuries.

I already spoke on this OLO about the difference between anti-semitism (against the Jewish race) and anti-Judaism (against the Jewish religion) and that Christianity and the Church were guilty only of the second one, although I agree that its religious anti-Judaism contributed to the recent rise in racial anti-semitism. Although John Paul II apologised for many things from the past, it does not imply that the Church and its people were the only ones thinking and acting in the way today we all rightfully condemn.

As to your last paragraph, as much as I do not like “ifs” in history, I am convinced that neither Jesus nor Paul would endorse what Hitler said and did, nor would Marx what Stalin said and did.

George

Just an observation, Jesus (being Jewish) would never have had much opportunity to "endorse" Hitler - it would've been the gas chambers for him. Paul would've endorsed whatever gave him more status, similarly Marx and Stalin were more into power than religion per se. Of course it is highly presumptuous to claim whatever a deceased person would do or say. We can never, ever know for sure.

Piper

I read the same sci-fi book too - all I can remember is that the torqs were for controlling people via their thoughts - don't remember anything about little people in the middle of the planet. But I do remember a sci-fi short story about missionaries (being the nerd that I am).

It goes like this, somewhere out past Alpha-Centuari is a solar system similar to ours, one of the planets is an earth-like planet where a race of intelligent although technologically primitive (vegetarian and lived in grass huts). However they were very good at art and traded with a lone earthman who enjoyed visiting their peaceful world. Anyway, to cut to the chase, a Christian missionary arrived one fine day to 'save the souls' of these people (they didn't have any religion at all - just a Bill and Ted sort of thing of being excellent to one another). Well the missionary taught them all about Jesus and how he was crucified by non-believers but rose from the dead because he was god's son and all. Well the art-trader was unhappy at how the people got right into Christianity because he thought that their lives were already peaceful and good - no murders, rapes, theft etc. In fact they had no concept of deliberately taking the life of another, not even other animals; they were vegetarian remember?

These people believed the missionary when he told them that he was a representative of God, spreading the word of Jesus, they decided that he too would rise from the dead if crucified, and so, they committed their first murder. In the name of God of course.