the believer we call peter quote<<..He would not let God go,until God blessed him, and God stated that he would no longer be called Jacob,but Israel,...>>noting 32;1..the angels of god[upon who he inquired is this gods camp'...lol...at 32;24...a man wrestled with him[other books say angel..but most certainly NOT GOD

<<and Israel means Man of God.>>..israel means fights with god..[or wars with god]...but the reality is that the angel/man he wrestled with..is likely the same angel jesus was tempted by in the desert..or who asked god in job to stretch his hand over job..that god denied to do

the same angel..who did ask eve..'didst god forbid'[gen3;1]...the same angel who offered the christ these realms..matt 4;8..[yet jesus wisely refused]..to which he spake those immortal words..those thinking jesus god..seem to completly ignore

matt 4;10..Jesus said to him;''away from me satan''..[lord of this realm..[see 4;8-]...FOR it is written...'wors-hip...the lord god and serve HIM only''...

noting clearly jesus isnt stating he is god,..nor to whoreship jesus as god...remembering the command..ye shall have no god before god...this includes not son,...nor messenger either

i can only agree,.. with your jury theories..not your jewry ones..allways been struch by the sounds like of due and jew..[and the taking of oath..[inherant in wors-e-hip]..

you would be familour with the need to place ones hands under the hip of the priest to take oath...lol...based i presume on the incident with the..two..eguals]..who didst wrestle allnight

Csteele: Gee that's interesting!

- and the parallel with THE MAN FROM SNOWY RIVER by A.B. "Banjo" Paterson is fascinating. It's one of my favourite pieces of literature btw and I have to say that it has always thrilled me to read it. My favourite lines are:

"And the stockwhips woke the echoes, and they fiercely answered back
From cliffs and crags that beetled overhead."

So I think I need to read Job in one sitting, bearing in mind what you're saying about it having a particular blokey appeal. I don't see me having time to read it right now, but I'm putting it my list of things to do by end of year.

Thanks for a most interesting thread and for your posts in response.

pynch :)

Dear csteele,

Ditto. Thanks from me as well even though I haven't
been game to come back into this discussion (my
apologies - but I really felt unqualified to contribute
anything further). However - I have enjoyed reading
all of the posts - and I have learned so much as a
result. You've opened up a whole new world to me - and
I too shall go and re-read The Book of Job,
very slowly - savouring every moment.

Take care.

Dear Pynchme and Foxy,

Thank you for being prepared to fully read Job, I hope you won’t be disappointed. It has certainly lead me unexpected down paths.

As to its ‘blokeyness’ there are some quite tender questions asked of Job;

1 "Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.

I have been reflecting on ‘The Man from Snowy River’ and a Jobean God’s response to it. I get the sense that his hopes could well have been on Old Regret’s colt making good his escape and I’m not sure he would have approved of “He was blood from hip to shoulder from the spur;”.

See what he says about another wild creature;

9 "Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will he stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold him to the furrow with a harness?
Will he till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on him for his great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to him?

It is hard not to get the sense that God is quietly disapproving of the subjugation by man of wild creatures but that he sighs and puts up with it because that is part of the covenant he has with the human race. It is almost like his doesn’t understand the behaviour and draws our attention to two of his mighty creatures including the crocodile;

Cont

1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.

He is saying that at least there are two that you are not going to be able to subdue.

From Romanovich’s dream in Dostoyevski’s ‘Crime and Punishment’;

Start quote,

"I'll show you! Stand off," Mikolka screamed frantically; he threw down the shaft, stooped down in the cart and picked up an iron crowbar. "Look out," he shouted, and with all his might he dealt a stunning blow at the poor mare. The blow fell; the mare staggered, sank back, tried to pull, but the bar fell again with a swinging blow on her back and she fell on the ground like a log.

"Finish her off," shouted Mikolka and he leapt beside himself, out of the cart.

Several young men, also flushed with drink, seized anything they could come across--whips, sticks, poles, and ran to the dying mare. Mikolka stood on one side and began dealing random blows with the crowbar. The mare stretched out her head, drew a long breath and died

Cont

"You butchered her," someone shouted in the crowd. "Why wouldn't she gallop then?"

"My property!" shouted Mikolka, with bloodshot eyes, brandishing the bar in his hands. He stood as though regretting that he had nothing more to beat.

"No mistake about it, you are not a Christian," many voices were shouting in the crowd.

But the poor boy, beside himself, made his way, screaming, through the crowd to the sorrel nag, put his arms round her bleeding dead head and kissed it, kissed the eyes and kissed the lips.... Then he jumped up and flew in a frenzy with his little fists out at Mikolka. At that instant his father, who had been running after him, snatched him up and carried him out of the crowd.

End quote.

For me it is difficult not to picture an adolescent Jobean God in the actions of the boy.

Perhaps Mikolka might be the roo hunters in ‘Wake in Fright’, or even us as we feast on battery hens or cruelly penned pigs.

Just as we show little regard for our domesticated, obedient, service animals are we really to be surprised if God adopts the same attitude to us? It is in ‘kicking the traces’ that Job receives God’s attention, not in his adherence to what he deems as God’s requirements for his behaviour.

So I hope you both enjoy Job even half as much as I have. As you can see it keeps delivering little gifts of understanding to me on a regular basis which then shoot off in unexpected tangents. May it do the same for you.