I want to admit to a current addiction of mine, the Book of Job. I find it poetic, deep, beguiling, brave and ultimately damn fine literature.

Having found myself discussing and defending Job, admittedly rather off topic, in other forums on OLO I recognise that my addiction may well be becoming boorish thus this standalone post.

My frustration is the very shallow message many people appear to take from it, one that says Job, despite his afflictions, refused to curse God and ultimately was rewarded with new children and wealth.

What seems to be ignored is the exploration of things like the question of evil, of putting God on trial, of the limitations of God and of whether a man can be judged more righteous than God.

It is certainly very revealing of the psyche of the Hebrew God.

I am probably more interested in the literature and philosophical aspects rather than the religious and so would like to explore it as it stands without so much reflecting on its context.

I am curious what others think. Anyone care to play?

the book of job was the last book i read[in the bible]...i have noted its discussion on other topics...and thought the paNTHEUM THEORY RELITIVE[DAMM CAP LOC]

the elihu.32;1-37;24.that answers might be of intrest,a search for the meaning of the name gives two definitions...;''Elihu,..he is my God himself'' and ''Whose God is he.''......noting he was silently lisytening to the whole conversation

this becomes intresting when 'god' himself..replies later..38;1-41;34..[by god himself..i note..he is refered to as..god of this world]...but you know where im going with that one

its noteworthy that satan afflicted job..[not god]...and that god said he could exceed his bounds...noting job 1;12...all he HAS is in thy power[only upon himself..put NOT forth thy hand....

i find 32;1..revealing[as the 3 stopped answering job...because he was rightious IN HIS OWN EYES...at2 butze gets angry with job for justifying himself rather than god...pretty much my first impression of the book as well

anyhow i look forward to the topic getting explained/egsamined/disected...i enjoy that elihu speaks at 32;8..''but it is the spirit IN a man,THE BREATH of the allmighty,...that gives him understanding''...9..its not only the old who are wise,not only the aged who understannd..what is right

...14..but job has mareshalled his words against me...and i will not reply him with your arguements
18...for i an full of words...and the spirit within me comnpells me

33;3,4...14..[noting the refereances..[re swedenberg influxes from h and h]...23...29..31..33
[34;2,3,4...10,..12-...23..33]
35;6,7,10,11-15,16]
36;3,4,5..6..12,26
37;5

I feel that any notion that God was not responsible for what happen to Job despite Satan doing the afflicting unreasonably devalues the whole book. To let him off the hook misses the whole point. God is on trial for actions that offend human moral sensiblities.

Remember Satan here is not the later Christian creation but the 'Accuser'. I am reminded of the Pope's inquisitors, working with the express permission and urging of His Holiness.

At its crudest it is God's pride that is the driver of the capricious treatment of Job.

Job is often praised for not cursing God but in doing so he would have given some justification, however small, for his treatment so wisely he refrained. He did however challenge God forcefully.

I read the book as almost a coming of age for the human race, one apparently championed by God when he commands Job to "Gird his loins" and take him on. One gets the sense that God is proud of Job, not for his faith but for his willingness to challenge God. Job spells out the measures for which God should be judged and how he has fallen short.

Some writers are dismissive of the final chapter and see it as a later addition. That may be so but I find it refreshing in what it tells us about Job's human-ness and God's values.

God's address to Job in the three preceding chapters are exquisite and in an almost environmentalist diatribe deliver some vivid imagery. His pride in creation most fully expressed in the wild rather than the human tamed. I love it.

Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied his ropes?

I gave him the wasteland as his home,
the salt flats as his habitat.

He laughs at the commotion in the town;
he does not hear a driver's shout.

He ranges the hills for his pasture
and searches for any green thing

Dear csteele,

Can you explain to me why righteous people suffer
and why evil exists in a world that is governed
by an all-powerful God?

I have spent many years in the study of Job and written extensively in the defence of monotheism so will enjoy this topic. But later!

Csteele, I agree the Book Of Job is poetic, deep, beguiling, brave and ultimately damn fine literature. Yes, it's a damn fine piece of fiction that's very well written indeed.

foxey quote<<Can you explain to me why righteous people suffer>>..thats not the correct word...but recall the quote from job..made job 32;1...rightious IN HIS OWN EYES...its sort of a key thought

maybe if you read all the rightious quotes in job it will become more clear what rightiousness is...key is job 36;3

we are to make offereings of rightiousness ps 4;5
and it will be rightiousness if deut 6;25...noting as god commanded[not as the moasaic laws later ordained

thw qualoity of rightiousness is a matter of an act being for the right reason...or by quality of being just...there is a plain difference to being rightious to law or being rightous in our dealings with a living loving god...[god is not pleased by 'rightious bl;oodshed for egsample or scape goating...or labeling others sinners

<<and why evil exists in a world that is governed
by an all-powerful God?>>>..god created the world...sustains all life to live...but we should know..via christ refusing this realm..that this realm is not..governed..by the living loving god/good...but is ruled by greed fear,lust,envey,war,hate....greed is good..cant come from god..love neighbour could well have

were god ruling..this realm..then hate would not be possable....

meaning there could be no freewill...sin comes from mens freewill...thus we know for surity this cant be gods realm..its a matter of the beast knowing its masters voice...and..we know those following love...[or hate]..by their works...if the fruit is good the tree is good

god wishes only..that we chose to reject hate..[wishes we freely chose to love...[loving neighbour thus loving honouring good..[god]...gives us life that we learn to tell wheat from tares...

that we cast our seed on good ground...that we dont cast pearl before swine...that in the end../we all earn equal wages...[grace]

live love light logic life logus

Dear Foxy and others,

The Jobian God is a different kettle of fish, ‘all powerful’ maybe but possibly not an ‘all interested’ one. In a different forum I described him as a disinterested Gulliver. ‘Oops, yeah okay, I stepped on another Lilliputian, but what do you expect, I’m busy doing important ’big peoples’ business that you wouldn‘t understand. I can’t be looking everywhere I step.’

To wrestle Foxy’s question about evil can I offer a topical Jobian tale? It is very trite and contains not an iota of poetry, so my apologies to Job but it is the best I can do off the cuff.

Imagine an Afghan tribesman living a quiet but righteous life in an obscure valley in Northern Afghanistan. He is comparatively wealthy and widely respected in his small community for his generosity of spirit. On the occasion of the wedding of his eldest son his large family had come to celebrate and were gathered in this man’s impressive house. He was overcome with the blessings he deemed had been afforded him from his God and so he and his wife slipped away to go to the mosque which was close by to give thanks.

While there a loud explosion was heard but the tribesman, true to his faith, completed his worship ritual. Suddenly one of his wedding guests burst in saying "The fire of God fell from the sky and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

The tribesman arose, tore his robe and shaved his head. He went and sat among the ashes of his house weeping inconsolably. He was shunned by his neighbours for it was thought he must have been a supporter of the dreaded Taliban which is why he was targeted. The weapons payload obviously carried something poisonous because very quickly his skin became sorely afflicted.

Four of his friends came to sit with him. They implored him to admit his wrongdoing but he told them there was nothing to confess.

Cont.

Cont.

They repeatedly said there must have been some truth in the rumour for why else would the mighty powers have sent such a devastating weapon to punish him. His reply was that he was the one wronged, a claim he repeated to all who would listen. His friends cautioned him that his diatribes would bring further retribution but the tribesman persisted.

One day a scribe came to talk to him. He had heard of this tribesman’s story and spent many hours questioning him. A friend later told the tribesman his story was being told in the capital and in other countries. He however continued to sit in the ashes of his devastated home.

One morning the tribesman looked up into the sky and saw a war machine loom large overhead. While his neighbours ran for safety the tribesman did not move. From this machine of the air came a dozen men. Most were armed and appeared bigger than life to the tribesman. There was another man who carried a case. He came and sat with the tribesman. Through an interpreter he told of his great and powerful nation who fought to bring peace, democracy and prosperity to the world, something he felt the tribesman would come to understand. He also needed to comprehend that this great nation had a responsibility to the world and that sometimes people were forced to make sacrifices for the greater good. The tribesman’s sacrifice had been noted and he expressed his country’s gratitude that the tribesman had not been lured to fight for the enemy as many others had been. He told of being instructed to give him this case which contained more money than the tribesman could hope to earn in twenty lifetimes. He would be able to rebuild his home, marry more wives and have many more children. He asked if there was anything the tribesman wanted to say.

The tribesman paused, then accepted the case and thanked the man.

So where does the evil lie?

oh dear cs..thats so full of error to be absurd...to begin with islamb means to follow gods will...such a bombing would be seen as gods will

to take payback is to under estimate these people so dedicated to god's way/...yes every religion has its black sheep,..but i note it wasn't an israelie..you made dumb and ignorant..so reverse the story into an ignorant isralie..and taste how insulting it really is

if you knew/cared.. more about these people of god..you would know a woman couldnt just slip out to go pray at the mosque,..unprotected by a male from her family..and most likely would pull out her own well worn prayer matt..and just pray facing mecca.

it comes to mind that maybe you should revise the bomb next time to be falling on a house...or maybe instead of a bomb an israerlie bulldozer...or raw sewrage running downhill from a settler camp invaDING WEST BANK farmland after stealing the olive harvest..[and tearing up the 500 year old trees

or maybe naplam from isralie jets spewing phosper onto un schools in the gaza gulags...or dropping cluster/bomblets in childrens playgrounds...seems the choice of a simple araB taking blood money...misses the very point your trying to make..oppertuinist comes to mind..propagandist even

the evil lies in the lies of the fictional situation you created
and in the truth of the correction..of the propaganda,..that is every day reality..for people kicked/tricked out of their own homes/country over 50 years ago...

buy colonising bolchovic/outsiders..stealing others lands because they could,..with the aid of britan/usa and the un..supplied arms and ursury obtained from the goy,..they in reality despise

Dear OUG and csteele,

I'm going to have to re-read all the quotes about
'righteousness,' as you suggested OUG. Thank You.
I'm not sure that I fully understand the direct
relationship between right actions and reward.

Dear csteele,

Thank You for giving me such a detailed example
in modern terms of Job's situation - I guess from
that we can surmise that humanity can question
God's will but we'll never truly understand God's
ultimate design. Just as Job accepts God's judgement
of him - even though he can't understand it.

Perhaps that's why The Book of Job is called one of
the 'Wisdom Books.'

We are nothing compared to God?

Foxy,
Job was a righteous man. He was declared righteous by the Hebrews God YHWH, to the face of all other gods, especially El (opponent - Satanas) of the Earth. The problem is not based in Job's sin see chapter 1: 8, and chapter 42: 8. Sin or righteousness is not the basis of the problems mortal man faces in being human. It is easy for gnostics to attribute disaster to the god / gods of the earth; however to believe in one God places God in the position of controlling both life and death.

Roman Christianity influenced by Zoroastrianism upholds there is a god of the Earth known as the Devil. Monotheism cannot accomodate such a god - as the glorified Christ is said to hold the keys of life and death and ALL things are under him.

Throughout the text, monotheism is recorded in the terrestrial names Aloah, YHWH, Adonai, and El Shaddai. The text is a court drama edited over several milennium eg Ch 28 is an inclusion after 400 BC as it uses the name Adonai meaning Lord that first appeared post the Persian occupation.

Job had abandoned polytheisn to worship one God. His gnostic counsellors accused him of violating the codes of El (the god of the Earth). Compare the post script to the laws of Hammaurabi and the curses it contains.

Monotheism is based in the unity and compatibility of the universe its valence Chemistry and DNA.

Dear Philo,

Thank You for your explanation.

It matches what I found on the following website:

http://www.ccel.org.contrib/exec_outlines/job.htm
The Book of Job - A Study Guide

"There are people who will serve God even in
adversity, for God is worthy of our praise
apart from the Blessings He provides.
That doesn't mean we won't have questions for which
answers can't be found in this life.
But with The Book of Job we can learn how the
righteous should suffer and to accept the fact that
we can never fully understand God's working in our
lives and in the world..."

"We need the faith as expressed by the prophet
Habakkuk:

Though the fig tree may not blossom,
Nor fruit be on the vines;
Though the labour of the olive may fail,
And the fields yield no food;
Though the flock may be cut off
from the fold, And there be no herd in the
stalls;
Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy
in the God of my salvation.
The Lord is my strength' He will make my
feet like deer's feet,
And He will make me walk on my high hills."

Philo wrote that Roman Christianity upholds that there is a "god of the Earth, known as the Devil".

Philo, please show us the original texts where it's written that the Roman Christians actually considered the devil to be a "god" as you state.

Dear Master,

I hope that Philo won't mind my jumping in here.
He'll answer your question much better than I ever
could (I'm a bit out of my depth - although I do
find all this fascinating), anyway - I came across
this website:

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch19.htm
"Jews and Christians in Rome's Golden Age -
Essenes, Dead Sea Scrolls and the Herods."

Paul described the devil as "the God of this world."
(Ephesians 6:11-12)

Jesus described the devil - "The ruler of the world."
(John 14:30).

Dear Foxy,

You wrote: “I guess from that we can surmise that humanity can question
God's will but we'll never truly understand God's
ultimate design. Just as Job accepts God's judgement
of him - even though he can't understand it.”

No, no, no. I’m sorry for my obviously feeble attempts to verbalise what I find in the Book of Job. Your response to Philo couldn’t be further from the Job I have read. Have a crack at reading the book in a single sitting.

You look for understanding in the suffering of good people but as Job 28:22 states of wisdom

“Destruction and Death say,
'Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.'
(what a poetic chapter by the way).

Can I try from another direction? The Boxing Day tsunami was a terrible tragedy with such senseless loss of life. But was it evil? Most people accept it as an unfortunate outcome of natural movement of tectonic plates. The only way we might regard it as evil is if we believe in an all powerful God who could have intervened if he wanted but didn’t.

The God of the Book of Job doesn’t want a bar of that. Job hits him with a shopping list of what he wants out of a God. What is expected and accepted behaviour.

For what is man's lot from God above,
his heritage from the Almighty on high?
Is it not ruin for the wicked,
disaster for those who do wrong?

Read chapter 24 where Job proceeds to make the case that God has failed to deliver justice as promised. I would ignore verses 18-20 as they are so discordant with the rest of Job’s accusations that I feel they can only be later additions.

Try thinking of God’s response as a powerful statement of ‘This is who I am regardless of who you would have me be. I am a creator and I revel in what I have created and regardless of what you think you are not the best of it.’

Cont…

Cont...

Job essentially puts the obligation back on God. ‘I have behaved in a certain manner and this is my due, I deserve to be treated better than I have been because of my righteousness.’ Once again God is having none of it. He rewards not that righteousness but instead Job’s uppity response to his predicament.

In your job description for God you want a grand design. A Jobian God may well answer, “What if there isn’t one? What is it to you anyway, why do I have to include you in any discussion? Just look around you and if you are impressed with my creation and want to do a bit of adulation well fine but don’t expect a response from me. If you humans develop your own moral code I might even feel some pride that a creation of mine is capable of such a feat, but don’t expect me to buy into it, after all I am God.”

As I have stated before Job is about the limits of God. Generation after generation place their own demands on God or visions of what they would have him be as do you, but I have a growing fondness for that Jobian God, raw, uncomplex, and appreciative of strength and beauty in the natural world. The type you could sit on a Kakadu cliff with watching a couple of male crocs fighting, or a mob of wild brumbies charge down a steep descent.

And if he were asked what he thought he might do about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict his reply would be, “I’m just going to leave the buggers to sort it out themselves, now shut up and enjoy”.

Csteele wrote, "his reply would be 'I'm just going to leave the buggers to sort it out themselves, now shut up and enjoy'"

Master replies: This is the very essence of the sort of god that many worshipers believe in. They believe we have free will and that their god won't intervene in the expression of that free will. This makes it easier to them to demonise the unrepentant sinner, rather than the god. It also makes it easier for them to reject, and cast out, the so called "sinner" or the person who doesn't accept the "doctrine" - - - eg the Jehova Witnesses and the Amish.

The English translators of the Hebrew relied on the Septuagent where names of God are consistently changed representing one God. The ben Elohim (sons of mother El Shaddai - ben meaning son) are translated into English as "angels" and Satan has been substituted to accomodate what Catholic Christians attribute to the Roman idea of the Devil. He rules the Earth and is able to create storms, conflict between people, motivate theft anf pillage.

The windstorm that destroyed the house and Job's children in Chapter 1 is attributed to the ben Elohim. Job will not accept this counsel of his gnostic first wife and believe the el has cursed him. He attributes both life and death to YHWH Chapter 1: 21 and 2: 9 - 10. The word YHWH is not used till Moses Exodus 6: 2. The original text of Job was writen long before Moses - Job was a grandson of Abraham. Abraham worshipped God by the Chaldean name El Shaddai.

El Shaddai was Celestrial and Holy and could not do calamity on the Earth according to Jobs uncle Elihu - father of Teman.

Job, Teman and Jacob worshipped God as Aloah - as the scripture records Aloah is the God of Jacob in Psalms. Job's second wife is Dinah daughter of Jacob.

Job denies that El the god of the Earth is responsible for the death of his children and future. Job upholds the celestial Aloah will appear terrestial upon Cursed Earth to vindicate him chapter 19. Elihu in his final debate tries to extole El as creator of the Earth and its mortal curse. The conclusion is (Chapter 38) where YHWH speaks from the violent windstorm the Chaldeans attributed to El the god of the Earth and identifies He created all things even the monstors of the land and sea and gave them their nature and provided for the wild herds of the mountains etc. This vindicates Jobs claim. One God is over all and YHWH congratulates Job for his consistent stand against the counsel of his gnostic counsellors in Chapter 42: 7 - 16.

science THEORISES..a big bang...[the bible reveals..a beginning...its basiclly the same thing...but what is this..'creation'..of the mater-ial realm..set to achieve...[why is it so?]

there are..in the true realms..[heaven the place of light and love..and hell..the dark place..of averice/hate fear envey greed..etc]but these are places of passions...but there comes a time../when spirt's..rebell the surities[predicabilities]..of the heavens or the hells]...

there comes a time..when spirits...need to have the knowing/surity..of a choice..[a free-will choice..to chose to love sin..or love love...recall that satan rebelled god...

how the suns of god..were living amoung men/.beasts..etc...do not these indicate,..that in the spirit realm...there are some spirits just too headstrong..[or confused]..or bored or curious..to accept the perfect/eternal..of spiritual being..in the ever-dark or ever-light realms

this realm..for all its insanity...is yet a sure place../where we are able to chose...using freewill...how we wish to continue eternity...

..we are realising things about ourselves here..[in this realm]..mainly that we have a choice...to speak or do..to remain silent..or speak...to sin or not..help/hinder

see this realm..is like a prison planet...we all got..equally..a life sentance...somes life-sentance expires..even before they are born...others think this realm..is all there is and seek to spend eternity in this prison...

but in the end..we all get to the end of our..life term...[we all get parroled]..and return either to the light..or reject the light..and dwell in darkness...think of this as getting a gift..[an ability to briefly explore mortality/materiality/freewill...

we are eternal spirits..having an incarnate mortal/freewill holyday..or a prison life sentance../encased in a fleshy prison...

a place where we can learn to sort the wheat from the tares..[to know good from vile]...where we can elect to return to the true realms as a sheep or a goat

satan is god..of this realm...[one needs only look at the vile to know this...but there is also extreem good...this is the only place the two extreems can freely mix...

there is none..without sin in this prison...

we asked for freewill..and are getting it...satan is only the warder...thinking up todays enter-taint-meant/lessons/challanges/teachings...

extreen vile..allows us/others to do extreem good...
but its our..[freewill]..choice

I really am out of my depth here, and will
have to do much more reading. I realize that my
understanding of The Book of Job was far too
simplistic

Dear Philo,

Reading your posts it is obvious you have devoted a serious amount of time to a study of the history and context of Job.

My problem is I look upon Job as a fable, a magnificent one but a construct none the less. It has some very important things to say about the relationship between God and humanity although I happily acknowledge it is a midrashic creation from disparate oral contributions.

I think a Shakespearian work like Antony and Cleopatra or MacBeth can be digested and valued as a literary work without grasping the dynastic history of Egyptian royalty or Scottish kings and I would hope the same holds for Job.

I fear that by properly assimilating your posts I will lose that sense of literary magic I get from Job. This is not a criticism of your efforts more an acknowledging of a personal frailty.

On a more personal note which chapter would you, as an aficionado deem the most poetic in Job? I think Job in chapter 28 and God in 39 would have to be up there.

Dear foxy,

I hardly think you are out of you depth, maybe burdened with a few understandable preconceptions that’s all.

The only reading you need to do is the Book of Job with an open mind. Could I recommend www.biblegateway.com in the New International Version setting. They even have a spoken word option if you are that way inclined. It will take you less than half and hour to consume the lot. Drink it in.

It is quite possible you will form an entirely different take than the one I have offered but that is all to the good.

If you have the time to manage it I would love to hear your thoughts.

csteele,
I have spent many years researching Job from the meaning of the original script from which we have translated Job. Writing a commentary and poetry to match how I see the expresson of the text. It is my favourite OT book as it explores the age old question of meaning of living in a world of death and decay and our relationship to eternal spirituality. It refutes many of the concepts commonly held about gnosticism, God, calamity (evil) and mortal life. The NIV is not the best translation as it often interprets text rather than translate. I prefer the RSV though I read in Literal translations with the accompanyment of a Hebrew Lexicon. My translation I have left the names of God / gods in the original meaning

I love its poetry and have written a 20 minute scripr for stage presentation, and put it on in Church 35 years ago using young actors.

Dear Master,

I may be mistaken but I think you are saying that believing in a non-interventionist God requires that the adherents take it upon themselves to do God’s work in chastising the backsliders.

But I do wonder why pray if one doesn’t believe in an intervening God?

Surely most religions also maintain that a conduct of good works has the possibility of delivering extra blessings while in this world. The Book of Job hints at these early in the piece but by the end makes it clear they are not guaranteed and that God doesn’t necessarily accept any obligation to provide them. Indeed Spinoza talked about an obligation to love God but taught that God was under no obligation to return it.

I’m not equating Michael Jackson to God but there was a large contingent of people who obviously loved the star, despite of some very evident flaws. The vast majority of them would not have been under any illusion that MJ returned any of the love on a personal level.

The evolution of an American Jesus has challenged that paradigm and while it is only a relatively recent shift it has been very pervasive. It informs most perceptions of God seen by the believers on OLO.

so many thoughts..to respond to...first..i feel proverbs is a more informative read than job...and the ps-alms..more informative of gods nature...especially the first few pages

god is under no obligation to men..[it is us who are obligated to god]...i find most of the prayers to god,..somehow selfish..and thus have not prayed to god...its not so much how..we pray..but the reasons behind our prayers...and assumptions..we must make..to be praying for others

we are all sinfull...those casting demons out of people..are making assumptions..that the people actually are possesed...and if they are then..it is..them..that gave admitance..to allow the unholy expression...

they dont need angry people yelling at them...they need a reason to want to reject evil entry into their being..to see that there is love of others..[not others look to reasons to cast out demons]..or call people names

god has allways had a loving nature..what changes is our perception of what god does/did...who are we to judge any prophets..better or worse

as in the words of prov..1;2..the holy text are..''for attaining wisdom and dicipline...for understandinng words of insight''....''for doing that right and fair''....

1;7..'the fear of the lord is the..BEGINNING..of knowledge''....[as we mature../we realise there is nothing to fear..from the living loving grace]..''..but fools dispise wisdom and dicipline''.

we did not 'know'..the writers of the book...but can know them by their words and wisdoms..in time they become our friends..[and where they did ere..[being only human]...we learn not to look upon their nakedness...to turn their wisdoms../into a revealing of the living love

as i write this michael jackson sings..''a better place''...

ok now its cat steven..'oh very young'...know that songs come from the heavens..[and hells]..it is easy to see the spirit/place..that inspired the songs...

please hesitate to judge others..jesus loves children too..[that dosnt mean they have sex with them]...how goes it..[judge not lest ye be judged by the same measure..

oh the song now is donovans..''universal solger''..

that means lous armstrongs..wonderfull world is next...
then the black eyed peas..[where is the love?]

peace and love...grace...be..
upon all the good/god's many messengers

Dear Philo,

Prompted by your posts but with a little trepidation I have been exploring some of the names for God used in Job.

From Wikipedia : “El Shaddai is normally translated as God Almighty, though its etymology ties it to concepts of nature, indicating a meaning that has connotations with a force of nature or nature deity (in its non-typical meaning).”

“Ehyeh asher ehyeh is generally rendered in English "I am that I am," better renderings might be "I will be what I will be" or "I will be who I will be", or even "I will be because I will be."“

Both have reinforced my notions of the Jobean God as a force of nature and my earlier claim for him “This is who I am regardless of who you would have me be” so thank you.

I am also reading Bloom on Job and there are some perspectives that are probably a little less forgiving than my take on the book but certainly focus the mind. He talks of God’s address as “a bombardment of exuberances, it is unanswerable, and substitutes power for justification.”

He talks of the Behemoth and Leviathan as “emblems of the incommensurateness of Yahweh’s wisdom and humankind’s” and of God only knowing the wisdom of force. “Job’s Comforters take joy in God’s wisdom, but pragmatically they are more satanic than the accuser”.

But he is most strongly struck by the divine sarcasm of “Will he make a convent with thee?”.

Bloom would appear to enjoy some extra measures of cynicism than myself in addressing the wisdom of Job but fun nonetheless.

Have you thought about your favourite passage from Job?

Dear OUG,

I will bite.

You wrote “god has allways had a loving nature”.

I would ask how did he show love for Job?

You assert “we are all sinfull”.

Why doesn’t this work both ways? When God does evil against us why can’t we regard this as him sinning? Or aren’t his standards ours?

As the God in Job opted out of our judgement of him why can’t we do the same? And if I choose to do so then aren’t I sinless?

In fact how was Job a sinner? It is instructive to remember rabbinical teaching had always assumed the Job must have sinned and therefore God had some justification for his actions. The Holocaust did much to change this thinking.

The Book of Job asks some very hard questions, lets see how you go answering them.

cs..quote<<.how did he show love for Job?>>..its writen throughout the word...that god created life and sustaines..us..[all/life]..to live...

from the first breath..god breathed into the clay[goyam]..called adam/to/job...the simple pleasures and gifts..we..[any of us]..hold in this realm...../have but one..cause..[he who created all]

<<..assert..“we are all sinfull”...Why doesn’t this work both ways?..When God does evil..against us..why can’t we regard this as him sinning?..Or aren’t his standards ours?>>...bad things happen...but..are these from god?...or just bad luck?...take job...who had a great life...before/and/after

[till..disaster..one day 1;13..to which job replies..'the lord giveth...[thats true..if 'the/lord'..is god]..but also..the lord takes away...[we know from 1;12...the lord said to satan...every-thing he has..IS IN..YOUR HANDS...[so it wasnt..god..that..'streched out gods/hand'..[but satan..maybe..stretching out..satanshand]

thus..to miss-judge that..god did..;that most cruel..is unjust to god...i think we all..should think hard..before blaming god../for any sin

<<As the God in Job..opted out of our judgement..of him>>..im not seing how god..'opted out'...satan begs god..to stretch out his hand...but its satans..[maybe]..that reaches...2;7..resulting in boils..

i got boils on my butt..[is that satan?..[but even this is not definitivly stated or implied 1;12-22]...as people say..stuff happens

<<why..can’t we do/the same?..And..if I choose to do so..then aren’t I sinless?>>//im not sure it says job is sinless..[satan says he is..''blameless and upright'..1;2...and at 1;8..2;3

at..1;5..we learn..he thought his children../might be..sinners..[so presuming..sin in others..could be..taken as../sinfull...but were doing the same presuming here../about god...our presumings..arnt proof

<<In fact..how was Job a sinner?>>..egsactly

<<rabbinical teaching..had always..assumed..the Job must have..sinned and therefore..God had some justification..for his..?..actions.>>..what actions did god do...1;12...2;6..well im sure..god didnt punish job...

also sure..his sin if any..was murder of beast's../sacrifices of living things..[ie murder of life../for the giver../of all life?...lol.]..or presuming his children..to have sinned..at best

but before and after..the two/trials...his life was great..42;12..how long was his pain..[for as long as three friends talked?]..say 4 hours at most...or..maybe the time between sabbaths..13 days.?.max..[there are two/meetings]..1;6..2;1.....and then the third 40'1..?

i..should read the text...in conText..but..see god is a levi-athan,...can you pull him in..with your..left..hook..lol..[41;1]..or tie his tongue..with a rope...or 40;8..7..9

The paleo text of Job in not a timeless statement. It is rather an evolving historical text showing Job's movement of faith and religious devotion to multipes Elohim to a belief that there is but one God. We cannot interpret ancient historical thought by modern word or idea useage.

El Shaddai in the Chaldean panthion was a celestrial mother of the gods worshipped at Ur. El means god, Shad meand nurturing mother dai is the plural for breast. She is depicted in artifacts as a woman with multiple breasts. Abraham chose her to represent God Almighty and the sons of Jacob worshipped her alone. cont

I don't know enough about the Book of Job to express any opinion, but just wanted csteele and other posters to know that I am enjoying reading and learning from the topic and posts.

Please carry on:)

Dear Punchme,

Thankyou and I may be wrong but I think we may have run our race on the topic. I have been doing some further readings on what philo has posted and can find little fault however as suspected those same readings have served to dry out the Book for me. However I only need to dip back into its pages to be revived.

In some ways he is quite correct when he states: “The paleo text of Job in not a timeless statement.” However when we reflect on its ability to move a relatively modern man like myself surely we have to acknowledge a degree of timelessness. Likewise while we probably “cannot interpret ancient historical thought by modern word or idea usage.” but surely we can examine our own world through the prism of the Jobean tale and its universality allows us that luxury.

I think one of the great cases of ignoring historical thought is our disregard of Jesus’ view of gentiles. He was loathed to cast pearls before swine and his bringing of one women into the fold through her humbling herself before him metaphorically as a dog is taken by Christianity as a door through which any gentile believer may pass.

I have been reflecting what it is in Job that has pushed my buttons and have come to the conclusion, which I am not entirely comfortable with and others might find a little sad, that it may well be its maleness.

Who can read “Brace yourself like a man” without stiffening the spine and sucking in the gut. The verses about the horse is refined ‘Boys Own’ stuff.

19 "Do you give the horse his strength
or clothe his neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make him leap like a locust,
striking terror with his proud snorting?
21 He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 He laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
he does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against his side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.

Cont’

Cont’

24 In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground;
he cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet he snorts, 'Aha!'
He catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

I mean really, ‘Into the valley of death rode the five hundred’ or even;

“He was hard and tough and wiry—just the sort that won't say die
There was courage in his quick impatient tread;
And he bore the badge of gameness in his bright and fiery eye,
And the proud and lofty carriage of his head.”

And in the spirit of the challenges tossed between Job and God one can’t help but ticking off a few of the questions God throws at him. For instance;

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

Well we have, we know to the metre how big it is. We’ve measured it, mapped it, echo sounded it, surveyed it minerals and a whole bunch of other stuff.

8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,

Well the Dutchies are pretty good at that.

16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?

Yep.

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

30 years ago thanks to Neil and the crew.

22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,

Uh huh and they are called clouds.

25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?

We do, and those Romans had a pretty good handle on it too, even back then.

Cont

Cont

29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens

Just open a fridge door.

33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?

Pretty good idea thanks.

35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?

Seen it all at Science Works, and your Leviathan and Behemoth populate our zoos.

So what you going to do about it? Smite in spite again?

Yes it all sounds very ubermale but it is hard to deny this is God’s approach to Job and that he invites Job to respond in kind.

This is not by any means the totality of my infatuation with the Book of Job but I am confessing that on reflection I have deemed it to be a notable part of it and one that it is a little unfair to expect others to respond to.

as jesus said...the things ye see me do [you will do greater]

now jesus wasnt the father..[light]..but he came to reveal of the light..[god]..and behold the light is good...but i will for the ezxersize..take exception to our man of steel's quotes

<<..the earth's foundation?..Tell me,..if you understand...>>YEAH TELL ME TOO

<<5..Who marked off its dimensions?..Surely you know!>>good question

<<we know to the metre how big it is...We’ve measured it,..mapped it,..echo sounded it,..surveyed it minerals and a whole bunch of other stuff.>>not to put too fina point on it.lets round off those questions..with that..you think definitivly provides the answers

im asuming no exp[anding universe,no big bank...to the meter...lol..surveyed if for minerals[wtf]...the maps i have seen dont reveal..the trillions of other universes..echo sounded[huh?]

the universe is how big?..[at the speed of light the theory is the light/radiations etc are still rebounding..in short you speak a big talk white fella...give up some fact

as for the moonlanding..theres plenty of proof it was faked...here is how they 'framed the earth',..from 'heaven'..lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xUGRngAhBI

as for having..<<walked..in the recesses of the deep?..>>...im not sure what you call..'walking'

as for your..<<..So what you going to do about it? Smite in spite again>>>..mate that isnt god..which you should well know..in light of your other agrandisments of mankind

as for<<he invites Job to respond in kind...>>..im with the quaran in this...MAKE FIRST ONE LIKE IT...mankind is destined to assume his great calling...but i will again assert the words of jesu..he who would lead you..will serve you...and..by their works will we know them

i will add..only by knowing the fruits from god..from the fruits not from god..will we ever know our living loving good[god]

It is really only one book of many in the Holy Bible. The Book of Job. What about the story of Penuel in Genesis 32, where Jacob, who had been quite a rascal, decided to camp alone on the far side of a river, and wrestles with God all night. He was obviously a fine style of a man, quite strong and determined, and courageously stayed alone over the other side of the brook. He would not let God go, until God blessed him, and God stated that he would no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, and Israel means Man of God.

This was a case where a prayer was answered and peace was made between Jacob/Israel and Esau, and the blessing of the Lord fell upon Jacob. At that time he only had eleven sons, Joseph was born later, and in that passage are some very important lessons for life. He was asking Esau for forgiveness and he got it. This is the genuine repentance that the Lord demands for admission to His Kingdom, and to this day, a person is asked to forgive all those who have wronged him, before he or she takes Holy Communion.

The interesting section in Genesis is Section 49 verse 10, at the end of the anointing of Judah, as Ruler of the Family of God. The Sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Shiloh was Jesus Christ.

The gathering of the people has been interpreted by English Scholars to mean a jury trial, so under the scepter a jury trial was to be called. The Lion of Judah sat atop the British Coat of Arms, and still sits in some District Court rooms in Sydney. It is on the old Post Office building at Central Railway Station, and engraved on the windows of the Local Courts at the downing centre. There is an enormous amount of wisdom not only in the Book of Job, but for bible believers throughout the Holy Bible

the believer we call peter quote<<..He would not let God go,until God blessed him, and God stated that he would no longer be called Jacob,but Israel,...>>noting 32;1..the angels of god[upon who he inquired is this gods camp'...lol...at 32;24...a man wrestled with him[other books say angel..but most certainly NOT GOD

<<and Israel means Man of God.>>..israel means fights with god..[or wars with god]...but the reality is that the angel/man he wrestled with..is likely the same angel jesus was tempted by in the desert..or who asked god in job to stretch his hand over job..that god denied to do

the same angel..who did ask eve..'didst god forbid'[gen3;1]...the same angel who offered the christ these realms..matt 4;8..[yet jesus wisely refused]..to which he spake those immortal words..those thinking jesus god..seem to completly ignore

matt 4;10..Jesus said to him;''away from me satan''..[lord of this realm..[see 4;8-]...FOR it is written...'wors-hip...the lord god and serve HIM only''...

noting clearly jesus isnt stating he is god,..nor to whoreship jesus as god...remembering the command..ye shall have no god before god...this includes not son,...nor messenger either

i can only agree,.. with your jury theories..not your jewry ones..allways been struch by the sounds like of due and jew..[and the taking of oath..[inherant in wors-e-hip]..

you would be familour with the need to place ones hands under the hip of the priest to take oath...lol...based i presume on the incident with the..two..eguals]..who didst wrestle allnight

Csteele: Gee that's interesting!

- and the parallel with THE MAN FROM SNOWY RIVER by A.B. "Banjo" Paterson is fascinating. It's one of my favourite pieces of literature btw and I have to say that it has always thrilled me to read it. My favourite lines are:

"And the stockwhips woke the echoes, and they fiercely answered back
From cliffs and crags that beetled overhead."

So I think I need to read Job in one sitting, bearing in mind what you're saying about it having a particular blokey appeal. I don't see me having time to read it right now, but I'm putting it my list of things to do by end of year.

Thanks for a most interesting thread and for your posts in response.

pynch :)

Dear csteele,

Ditto. Thanks from me as well even though I haven't
been game to come back into this discussion (my
apologies - but I really felt unqualified to contribute
anything further). However - I have enjoyed reading
all of the posts - and I have learned so much as a
result. You've opened up a whole new world to me - and
I too shall go and re-read The Book of Job,
very slowly - savouring every moment.

Take care.

Dear Pynchme and Foxy,

Thank you for being prepared to fully read Job, I hope you won’t be disappointed. It has certainly lead me unexpected down paths.

As to its ‘blokeyness’ there are some quite tender questions asked of Job;

1 "Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.

I have been reflecting on ‘The Man from Snowy River’ and a Jobean God’s response to it. I get the sense that his hopes could well have been on Old Regret’s colt making good his escape and I’m not sure he would have approved of “He was blood from hip to shoulder from the spur;”.

See what he says about another wild creature;

9 "Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will he stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold him to the furrow with a harness?
Will he till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on him for his great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to him?

It is hard not to get the sense that God is quietly disapproving of the subjugation by man of wild creatures but that he sighs and puts up with it because that is part of the covenant he has with the human race. It is almost like his doesn’t understand the behaviour and draws our attention to two of his mighty creatures including the crocodile;

Cont

1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.

He is saying that at least there are two that you are not going to be able to subdue.

From Romanovich’s dream in Dostoyevski’s ‘Crime and Punishment’;

Start quote,

"I'll show you! Stand off," Mikolka screamed frantically; he threw down the shaft, stooped down in the cart and picked up an iron crowbar. "Look out," he shouted, and with all his might he dealt a stunning blow at the poor mare. The blow fell; the mare staggered, sank back, tried to pull, but the bar fell again with a swinging blow on her back and she fell on the ground like a log.

"Finish her off," shouted Mikolka and he leapt beside himself, out of the cart.

Several young men, also flushed with drink, seized anything they could come across--whips, sticks, poles, and ran to the dying mare. Mikolka stood on one side and began dealing random blows with the crowbar. The mare stretched out her head, drew a long breath and died

Cont

"You butchered her," someone shouted in the crowd. "Why wouldn't she gallop then?"

"My property!" shouted Mikolka, with bloodshot eyes, brandishing the bar in his hands. He stood as though regretting that he had nothing more to beat.

"No mistake about it, you are not a Christian," many voices were shouting in the crowd.

But the poor boy, beside himself, made his way, screaming, through the crowd to the sorrel nag, put his arms round her bleeding dead head and kissed it, kissed the eyes and kissed the lips.... Then he jumped up and flew in a frenzy with his little fists out at Mikolka. At that instant his father, who had been running after him, snatched him up and carried him out of the crowd.

End quote.

For me it is difficult not to picture an adolescent Jobean God in the actions of the boy.

Perhaps Mikolka might be the roo hunters in ‘Wake in Fright’, or even us as we feast on battery hens or cruelly penned pigs.

Just as we show little regard for our domesticated, obedient, service animals are we really to be surprised if God adopts the same attitude to us? It is in ‘kicking the traces’ that Job receives God’s attention, not in his adherence to what he deems as God’s requirements for his behaviour.

So I hope you both enjoy Job even half as much as I have. As you can see it keeps delivering little gifts of understanding to me on a regular basis which then shoot off in unexpected tangents. May it do the same for you.

Dear csteele,

Thank You.

Sometimes we feel that there's nothing new
under the sun and then suddenly springs
a new discovery like the one you've given
us. Treasures are waiting
just beneath the surface, if only we look
for them.

Take care.