Dear Master,

I may be mistaken but I think you are saying that believing in a non-interventionist God requires that the adherents take it upon themselves to do God’s work in chastising the backsliders.

But I do wonder why pray if one doesn’t believe in an intervening God?

Surely most religions also maintain that a conduct of good works has the possibility of delivering extra blessings while in this world. The Book of Job hints at these early in the piece but by the end makes it clear they are not guaranteed and that God doesn’t necessarily accept any obligation to provide them. Indeed Spinoza talked about an obligation to love God but taught that God was under no obligation to return it.

I’m not equating Michael Jackson to God but there was a large contingent of people who obviously loved the star, despite of some very evident flaws. The vast majority of them would not have been under any illusion that MJ returned any of the love on a personal level.

The evolution of an American Jesus has challenged that paradigm and while it is only a relatively recent shift it has been very pervasive. It informs most perceptions of God seen by the believers on OLO.

so many thoughts..to respond to...first..i feel proverbs is a more informative read than job...and the ps-alms..more informative of gods nature...especially the first few pages

god is under no obligation to men..[it is us who are obligated to god]...i find most of the prayers to god,..somehow selfish..and thus have not prayed to god...its not so much how..we pray..but the reasons behind our prayers...and assumptions..we must make..to be praying for others

we are all sinfull...those casting demons out of people..are making assumptions..that the people actually are possesed...and if they are then..it is..them..that gave admitance..to allow the unholy expression...

they dont need angry people yelling at them...they need a reason to want to reject evil entry into their being..to see that there is love of others..[not others look to reasons to cast out demons]..or call people names

god has allways had a loving nature..what changes is our perception of what god does/did...who are we to judge any prophets..better or worse

as in the words of prov..1;2..the holy text are..''for attaining wisdom and dicipline...for understandinng words of insight''....''for doing that right and fair''....

1;7..'the fear of the lord is the..BEGINNING..of knowledge''....[as we mature../we realise there is nothing to fear..from the living loving grace]..''..but fools dispise wisdom and dicipline''.

we did not 'know'..the writers of the book...but can know them by their words and wisdoms..in time they become our friends..[and where they did ere..[being only human]...we learn not to look upon their nakedness...to turn their wisdoms../into a revealing of the living love

as i write this michael jackson sings..''a better place''...

ok now its cat steven..'oh very young'...know that songs come from the heavens..[and hells]..it is easy to see the spirit/place..that inspired the songs...

please hesitate to judge others..jesus loves children too..[that dosnt mean they have sex with them]...how goes it..[judge not lest ye be judged by the same measure..

oh the song now is donovans..''universal solger''..

that means lous armstrongs..wonderfull world is next...
then the black eyed peas..[where is the love?]

peace and love...grace...be..
upon all the good/god's many messengers

Dear Philo,

Prompted by your posts but with a little trepidation I have been exploring some of the names for God used in Job.

From Wikipedia : “El Shaddai is normally translated as God Almighty, though its etymology ties it to concepts of nature, indicating a meaning that has connotations with a force of nature or nature deity (in its non-typical meaning).”

“Ehyeh asher ehyeh is generally rendered in English "I am that I am," better renderings might be "I will be what I will be" or "I will be who I will be", or even "I will be because I will be."“

Both have reinforced my notions of the Jobean God as a force of nature and my earlier claim for him “This is who I am regardless of who you would have me be” so thank you.

I am also reading Bloom on Job and there are some perspectives that are probably a little less forgiving than my take on the book but certainly focus the mind. He talks of God’s address as “a bombardment of exuberances, it is unanswerable, and substitutes power for justification.”

He talks of the Behemoth and Leviathan as “emblems of the incommensurateness of Yahweh’s wisdom and humankind’s” and of God only knowing the wisdom of force. “Job’s Comforters take joy in God’s wisdom, but pragmatically they are more satanic than the accuser”.

But he is most strongly struck by the divine sarcasm of “Will he make a convent with thee?”.

Bloom would appear to enjoy some extra measures of cynicism than myself in addressing the wisdom of Job but fun nonetheless.

Have you thought about your favourite passage from Job?

Dear OUG,

I will bite.

You wrote “god has allways had a loving nature”.

I would ask how did he show love for Job?

You assert “we are all sinfull”.

Why doesn’t this work both ways? When God does evil against us why can’t we regard this as him sinning? Or aren’t his standards ours?

As the God in Job opted out of our judgement of him why can’t we do the same? And if I choose to do so then aren’t I sinless?

In fact how was Job a sinner? It is instructive to remember rabbinical teaching had always assumed the Job must have sinned and therefore God had some justification for his actions. The Holocaust did much to change this thinking.

The Book of Job asks some very hard questions, lets see how you go answering them.

cs..quote<<.how did he show love for Job?>>..its writen throughout the word...that god created life and sustaines..us..[all/life]..to live...

from the first breath..god breathed into the clay[goyam]..called adam/to/job...the simple pleasures and gifts..we..[any of us]..hold in this realm...../have but one..cause..[he who created all]

<<..assert..“we are all sinfull”...Why doesn’t this work both ways?..When God does evil..against us..why can’t we regard this as him sinning?..Or aren’t his standards ours?>>...bad things happen...but..are these from god?...or just bad luck?...take job...who had a great life...before/and/after

[till..disaster..one day 1;13..to which job replies..'the lord giveth...[thats true..if 'the/lord'..is god]..but also..the lord takes away...[we know from 1;12...the lord said to satan...every-thing he has..IS IN..YOUR HANDS...[so it wasnt..god..that..'streched out gods/hand'..[but satan..maybe..stretching out..satanshand]

thus..to miss-judge that..god did..;that most cruel..is unjust to god...i think we all..should think hard..before blaming god../for any sin

<<As the God in Job..opted out of our judgement..of him>>..im not seing how god..'opted out'...satan begs god..to stretch out his hand...but its satans..[maybe]..that reaches...2;7..resulting in boils..

i got boils on my butt..[is that satan?..[but even this is not definitivly stated or implied 1;12-22]...as people say..stuff happens

<<why..can’t we do/the same?..And..if I choose to do so..then aren’t I sinless?>>//im not sure it says job is sinless..[satan says he is..''blameless and upright'..1;2...and at 1;8..2;3

at..1;5..we learn..he thought his children../might be..sinners..[so presuming..sin in others..could be..taken as../sinfull...but were doing the same presuming here../about god...our presumings..arnt proof

<<In fact..how was Job a sinner?>>..egsactly

<<rabbinical teaching..had always..assumed..the Job must have..sinned and therefore..God had some justification..for his..?..actions.>>..what actions did god do...1;12...2;6..well im sure..god didnt punish job...

also sure..his sin if any..was murder of beast's../sacrifices of living things..[ie murder of life../for the giver../of all life?...lol.]..or presuming his children..to have sinned..at best

but before and after..the two/trials...his life was great..42;12..how long was his pain..[for as long as three friends talked?]..say 4 hours at most...or..maybe the time between sabbaths..13 days.?.max..[there are two/meetings]..1;6..2;1.....and then the third 40'1..?

i..should read the text...in conText..but..see god is a levi-athan,...can you pull him in..with your..left..hook..lol..[41;1]..or tie his tongue..with a rope...or 40;8..7..9

The paleo text of Job in not a timeless statement. It is rather an evolving historical text showing Job's movement of faith and religious devotion to multipes Elohim to a belief that there is but one God. We cannot interpret ancient historical thought by modern word or idea useage.

El Shaddai in the Chaldean panthion was a celestrial mother of the gods worshipped at Ur. El means god, Shad meand nurturing mother dai is the plural for breast. She is depicted in artifacts as a woman with multiple breasts. Abraham chose her to represent God Almighty and the sons of Jacob worshipped her alone. cont